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View Full Version : Duel between P51 and Me109. Who wins?



XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 12:22 PM
hi, i know this idea is more than crazy but in my opinion it makes no sense debating which plane is better, which plane is worse.

on a mission where there were 300 mustangs and p38s against 30-40 109s, there was no doubt who was the winner. there was no way messers could prove what they worth. i dont think it was because the mustang was the better plane. the same would have happened had there been 300 jak7 planes against late war 109s.

the real advantages of a plane and its real qualities only come out in a one2one dogfight. i would really want to see a 1v1 fight between a p51d and a me109g10.

i dont really know which side to put my money on...http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

well, who would win?

plébános


"Der ganze Revierkreis muss total schwarz sein"

Erich Hartmann

XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 12:22 PM
hi, i know this idea is more than crazy but in my opinion it makes no sense debating which plane is better, which plane is worse.

on a mission where there were 300 mustangs and p38s against 30-40 109s, there was no doubt who was the winner. there was no way messers could prove what they worth. i dont think it was because the mustang was the better plane. the same would have happened had there been 300 jak7 planes against late war 109s.

the real advantages of a plane and its real qualities only come out in a one2one dogfight. i would really want to see a 1v1 fight between a p51d and a me109g10.

i dont really know which side to put my money on...http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

well, who would win?

plébános


"Der ganze Revierkreis muss total schwarz sein"

Erich Hartmann

XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 12:23 PM
The best pilot of course...planes dont fly themselves.....and Me drivers shot down their share of Ponies during the war.

<CENTER>http://www.world-wide-net.com/tuskegeeairmen/ta-1943.jpg <marquee><FONT COLOR="RED"><FONT SIZE="+1">"Straighten up.......Fly right..~S~"<FONT SIZE> </marquee> http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat

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XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 12:26 PM
Bearcat99 wrote:
- The best pilot of course...planes dont fly
- themselves.....and Me drivers shot down their share
- of Ponies during the war.



yep what he said



"Of all my accomplishments I may have achieved during the war, I am proudest of the fact that I never lost a wingman. It was my view that no kill was worth the life of a wingman. . . . Pilots in my unit who lost wingmen on this basis were prohibited from leading a [section]. They were made to fly as wingman, instead."
Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann "Karaya One"

fluke39
07-04-2003, 12:33 PM
- hi, i know this idea is more than crazy but in my
- opinion it makes no sense debating which plane is
- better, which plane is worse.

eh?

errr.. why this thread then

and yes tis the pilot - i have had my *** kicked by almost every crappy plane out there in fb i surely must have been in a better plane at some point.


<center><img src=http://mysite.freeserve.com/Angel_one_five/ffluke.jpg>

XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 12:34 PM
Hmm. P51 and Me109 are both planes for vets. I´d also think that in a 1v1 Dogfight the better pilot wins.


EDIT: And of course which version of plane. A,B,C,D ....


Message Edited on 07/04/0312:35PM by FranzAugust

XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 12:35 PM
the better pilot

[/thread]

-------------------------------------

A superior pilot may be defined as one who stays out of trouble by using his superior judgement, to avoid situations which might require the use of his superior skills.

XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 01:08 PM
The plane first. If they are roughly in the same class, then pilot.

This is Heresy on a internet dogfight webboard, but explains the feverish attempt to increase fighter performance during both world wars. Heresies explain much.

The problem with FB's upcoming P~51 is that P~51 simmers will Demand all FB servers require Gulf of Finland map for online dogfights, with opposing airfields on opposite ends of the map. Then, the P~51 defeats fb109, hands down, every time.

XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 02:27 PM
I think the planes are very evenly matched, each has advatages over the other. The first pilot making a mistake will be shot down, so it is all about the pilot.

XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 02:52 PM
When the P51D entered service,Me109 pilots were n00bs,so it`d be P51D./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

"degustibus non disputandum"

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<center>"Weder Tod noch Teufel!"</font>[/B]</center> (http://www.jzg23.de>[B]<font)

XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 03:32 PM
Sigh*

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center>
Aerobatics are fun../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
<center>
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XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 03:38 PM
The Pony will win!

Klaus Mietusch a German expert:

On 17 September 1944 Mietusch was engaged in combat with Mustangs. After gaining his 75th and final victory he was shot down and killed in Bf 109 G-6 (W.Nr. 441 646) "Black 25" in the vicinity of Rath-Aldekerk by the American ace, Lieutenant William Beyer (9 victories) of the 376th Squadron of the 361st Fighter Group, USAAF. He was posthumously awarded the Eichenlaub (Nr 653) on 18 November.

XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 03:59 PM
"was engaged in combat with Mustags" plural? doesn't tell us much.

I agree, it's the pilot. both aircraft have thier strenths and weaknesses. One of the P51's is it's excellent visibility.

In real combat, it tended to be who saw who first, and who had the advantageous position at the time.

XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 04:33 PM
There are so many factors involved it isn't even funny. No wait, it is. It is funny how this question comes again and again, how some people are ready to prove this or that /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif .

A pilot is just a factor, albeit the greatest one, IMO. He could be an ace, have a hangover or his wife just left him. Maybe the plane is loaded with fuel, while other is flying on vapors. Who spotted the one first ? Who got lucky ? Who has more E initially ? Etc, etc, etc

I would never agree that 1 on 1 is the ultimate measure of plane's quality. No way. Some planes benefit from in many vs many engagements (namely, 190, P51, P47), while others find themselves at home in 1 vs 1 duels (Zero, Yak, Spitfire). They didn't build many planes to win duels, you know. They built them to get the job done and bring pilots home.


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XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 06:31 PM
I just wanted to disagree about the comment that only in 1 vs. 1 dogfights do the qualites of a plane become apparent. The FW-190 is a terrible 1 vs. 1 plane, but if it is 4 vs. 4 it is awesome. Speed is a great asset for a plane to have that fights in groups, what good is speed 1 vs. 1, or against planes that climb better and turn better? All it would do is let you run away or extend and turn in for another head-on. Planes like FW-190, P-47, P-51, and Tempest have their true qualities come out when using teamwork, and this is much more important IMHO.

http://user.tninet.se/~ytm843e/graham4.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 06:43 PM
according to mark hanna, who flew them both,
the 109 will be better in a close slow dogfight.
at moderate speed, both will be ok
at higher speed DF the p51 will have advantage.

from a guy who flew p51 and g10

wastel

XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 07:04 PM
Again? Sighs in disbelief at the lack creativity in these kinds of threads.

http://sunstarentertainment.maddsites.com/images/ck.gif



Message Edited on 07/04/0311:05AM by UCLANUPE

The_Blue_Devil
07-04-2003, 07:14 PM
carguy_ wrote:
- When the P51D entered service,Me109 pilots were
- n00bs,so it`d be P51D
-
Oh thats right..the LW only counts the victories before they got owned. There were only noobs left at the end of the war for a reason. LW folk always try and discredit the Mustang by saying that it always outnumbered the 109/ the ME pilots were rookies/ etc. BTW in a straight up fight it would come down to altitude and tactics.

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>


<center> <img src=http://www.angelfire.lycos.com/art2/devilart/MySig.gif> </center>

XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 08:14 PM
AdiGlunz wrote:
- The Pony will win!
-
- Klaus Mietusch a German expert:
-
- On 17 September 1944 Mietusch was engaged in combat
- with Mustangs. After gaining his 75th and final
- victory he was shot down and killed in Bf 109 G-6
- (W.Nr. 441 646) "Black 25" in the vicinity of
- Rath-Aldekerk by the American ace, Lieutenant
- William Beyer (9 victories) of the 376th Squadron of
- the 361st Fighter Group, USAAF. He was posthumously
- awarded the Eichenlaub (Nr 653) on 18 November.
-
-

Well, Gerhard Koppen, a german expert (85 kills) was shot down in early 1942 by a Pe-2 and so was Hans Strelow (59 kills, but I'm not sure it wasn't more).

The Pe-2 will win !

More seriously, I don't know which plane is the best (if one can be said to be the best), but, in any case, the difference cannot be so important to determine the end of the fight.

The P-51 with its 6 50's will be better for deflexion shooting while the 109G-10's armament will be far better for a quick point blank shooting (it's concentrated in the nose and the 30mm gun doesn't need more than a handful of hits to bring down any planes).

The P-51 will be a little faster at medium to high levels, but, on the other hand, the 109 will climb a little better.

And we can continue for pages like that...without any of the two getting a decisive edge over the other.

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 10:37 AM
As I have said for months now, the P-51 will get owned in Dogfight Servers, it just isn't suitable.

There will be a minority that understand its strengths and exploit them. Most people will IMHO either get bored or frustrated (or both) when they have to use it at high speed and/or high alt.

DF Furballs in FB are low-alt TnB fests - the Mustang will get slaughtered.

COOPs are a different matter and I am looking forward to fighting experienced Pony drivers up there in late 109's and 190's - that should be interesting /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

JG5_UnKle

"Know and use all the capabilities of your airplane. If you don't sooner or later, somebody who does, will kick your ***"


http://homepage.ntlworld.com/victoria.stevens/jg5_logo.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 11:38 AM
ild say the 109 wins one v one its got a greater power to weight ratio for better accleration turn and climb, has a powerful arment needing just a single hit to down the plane.


http://lamppost.mine.nu/ahclan/files/sigs/spitwhiners1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 11:39 AM
If you mean IRL with equal (and expert) pilots equal start, and sufficient fuel for the 109, then both pilots will survive and both planes will rtb.

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 01:05 PM
That depends of the circumstances.
In RL, the 109 will win for sure, the US pilots where noobs in compare to the axis.
On HL, I think the better pilot will win, cuz It's not so simple to use a Stang at it's full capabilities.

"The show must go on..."

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 01:09 PM
First- As a 109 Pilot you should sit at least in a G10-
an old G6 which is nothing more as an "improved" G2 from 1942 has serious troubles vs a P51 in autum43 / spring44 and keep in mind, 50% of all produced 109 where G6 with DB 605A engine.

both Pilots with a similar skill leavel P51 vs G10 would be very interesting.. vs a K4 with its improved rollrate at high speed it will be harder in a Mustang but even then both planes are close togeter with diffent advantages and disatvantages...

JG53 PikAs Abbuzze
I./Gruppe

http://www.jg53-pikas.de/
http://mitglied.lycos.de/p123/pikasbanner.jpg

The_Blue_Devil
07-06-2003, 01:46 AM
Von_Zero wrote:
-
- That depends of the circumstances.
-
- In RL, the 109 will win for sure, the US pilots
- where noobs in compare to the axis.
-
- On HL, I think the better pilot will win, cuz It's
- not so simple to use a Stang at it's full
- capabilities.
-
-
- "The show must go on..."

Someone Needs a Reality Check..the LW lost most of it's Great Aces in combat with the US and UK pilots. The only reason the LW had so many 100+ aces was due to the Russian Front. The Russians sent wave after wave in..remember quantity over quality. How many 200/300kill aces were on the western front? The LW had a bleedin football team of 100 kill aces on the Eastern front...they spanked the Russians like red-headed step-children. Can the same be said for the Western front?

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>


<center> <img src=http://www.angelfire.lycos.com/art2/devilart/MySig.gif> </center>

XyZspineZyX
07-06-2003, 02:17 AM
And in that case, if russian pilots were such bad quality, why Kozhedub, along with Pokriskhyn an others had the most alied victories??? Why did Lawerence Thompson shoot about 1500 bullets into Hartmann' 109, without any effect?
It is more probably that the Western alies send"quantity over quality", or did they not start sending big bombers formatins, with an enormous escort, to bomb the germans?
Wasn't the same thing in the pacific also? The japs were badly outnumbered!
Why Harmann was shooting down Mustangs with only one 20mm bullet?
Can you answer all these, and still agree with what you said before?
Do't think so...
Anyway, that's not the point, on HL, almost all fights end at low altitude where the Stang is slower, so 109 would be in advantage.

"The show must go on..."

XyZspineZyX
07-06-2003, 02:21 AM
If both pilots were good niether would land a round on the other. Pony gets in trouble it dives, late war 109 gets in trouble it spiral climbs. Niether aircraft could follow eachother if both pilots played to the strengths of thier plane.

But when either pilots gets greedy, and tries to force a shot, then mistakes happen.

Roy Baty
III/7/JG2

"Be happy in your work!"
- Col. Saito

<center>http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/images/mash_henry_blake.jpg (http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/)</center>

XyZspineZyX
07-06-2003, 02:26 AM
It could not been said better!/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

"The show must go on..."

XyZspineZyX
07-06-2003, 02:33 AM
IMHO the last 109ers - G-10 and K-4 - and the P-51D were so close together, with really close similar performance that rather the human factor makes the fight than the technical./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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"Kimura, tu es une tªte carée comme un sale boche!"

The_Blue_Devil
07-06-2003, 02:38 AM
Von_Zero wrote:
- And in that case, if russian pilots were such bad
- quality, why Kozhedub, along with Pokriskhyn an
- others had the most alied victories??? Why did
- Lawerence Thompson shoot about 1500 bullets into
- Hartmann' 109, without any effect?
- It is more probably that the Western alies
- send"quantity over quality", or did they not start
- sending big bombers formatins, with an enormous
- escort, to bomb the germans?
- Wasn't the same thing in the pacific also? The japs
- were badly outnumbered!

First of all not all the Russian pilots were bad..but on the whole the Russian Airforce got their Rear-Ends handed to them..2 or 3 aces means nothing when the majority gets the snot beat out of them. The Allied bomber escort did not always out number the Germans..but indeed toward the later part of the war this was true. As for the pacific war..Japan had the United States on the ropes early on..but as the war dragged on they began to run out of supplies..pilots..etc. There were double aces on both sides.

- Why Harmann was shooting down Mustangs with only
- one 20mm bullet?

Hartmann shot down 5 mustangs...Though I doubt it was with one round each a single 20mm shot in the liquid cooling tubes can and will down a Mustang.

-
- Can you answer all these, and still agree with what
- you said before?
-
- Do't think so...

Didn't think so you mean?

- Anyway, that's not the point, on HL, almost all
- fights end at low altitude where the Stang is
- slower, so 109 would be in advantage.
-

Maybe where you fight..but the pilots I fly with don't give up their altitude advantage, energy advantage, or performance advantage. Flying any German or American fighter on the deck in TnB is foolish. People don't take the time to climb and use their plane at it's peak performance. Hartmann said he would not always engage..only when he had the advantage..and even then only at full strength i.e. from proper Alt /Speed/Position.
-
- "The show must go on..."



<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>


<center> <img src=http://www.angelfire.lycos.com/art2/devilart/MySig.gif> </center>

XyZspineZyX
07-06-2003, 04:06 AM
You don't belive the part about shooting down a Mustang with one 20 mm bullet?
read:
" we turn, hundreds of turns, don't know ho,but I can't get him in my sight,.. after a 3rd 360 degrees I see 2 Mustangs flying about 700 mbelow, he sees them too, and dive on them.
I'm at about 100m behing him, but I can't shoot, if I don't hit him, the bullets will hit the two Mustangs, so I look like spectator, to what will happen next,...from less than 10m(I had the impresion hat want's to colide with them), the german fire one, only one 20mm bulet, and Bang! parts of the engine, whit smoke, glycol, but what didn't splash fom the unhappy Mustang wich aready rolled over to crash"
Quote by Lawrence Thompson, after the legendary battle over Romania, where he met Hartmann.I dindn't had the text in engkish, so I had to translate it, so, there may not be some apropriate expriesions, but it makes no differance.

"The show must go on..."

The_Blue_Devil
07-06-2003, 05:29 AM
Read up cupcake..I said it can and will happen if the liquid cooling system is hit...it is the Stang's Achilles Heel much like the Ventral Radiator on the Sturmovik.

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>


<center> <img src=http://www.angelfire.lycos.com/art2/devilart/MySig.gif> </center>

XyZspineZyX
07-06-2003, 01:56 PM
The_Blue_Devil wrote:
- First of all not all the Russian pilots were
- bad..but on the whole the Russian Airforce got their
- Rear-Ends handed to them..2 or 3 aces means nothing
- when the majority gets the snot beat out of them.

This may have been true in the first months of the war (until late-1942) but not later : the reason why the top scorers on the Eastern front had higher scores than those in the West is that the lost altitude furballs against the soviets benefitted far more to individullay talented or very experenced pilots than the high altitude more disciplined battle of the West.

The german pilots who changed fronts gave conflicting results when asked to compare the airmen of the Western allies to the soviets : those who flew in the East till 1942 then came in the West rather told the RAF or USAAF pilots were better but those who fought in North Africa then went to the Eastern front told the opposite, Alf Grislawski who changed fronts by mid-1943 (when the air war had become harder on both fronts) said that they were about equally good pilots and that while the americans had the advantage to always appear in greater numbers, the russians were probably better individually, Rall (from whom it is well known he was shot down in the West in 1945, but less known that he had been shot down 8 times by the soviets before (including which one occasion on which he was seriously wounded)) had the same opinion : on no front were the allied pilots better than on the other.

XyZspineZyX
07-06-2003, 07:30 PM
One thing to always remember about us Americans and our planes is that we build them like our cars. Meaning, they are typically heavy, sleak, and fast, very fast! The Mustang, Jug, Lightning they were all built on the same principle; High altitude, high speed interceptor. They were all designed to fly and fight fast at altitude, and that is what our pilots did for the most part. TnB tactics were not favored because it was suicide against smaller, lighter and generally more agile fighters like the 109. Each plane has many qualities, and it's share of downfalls. Like someone said the 109 can spiral climb away, the Mustang can dive or just plain level out and run if the "E" is suitable for it. However at altitude and high speed's the table's were more in favor of the Mustang as that is what she was designed for. My point is, that it really boils down to the pilot being able to determine the fight and trick the other to following suit and invariably loosing the engagement.
~S!
Eagle
CO 361st vFG

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center> <center> www.361stvfg.com</center> (http://www.361stvfg.com</center>)

<center> <img src=http://www.angelfire.lycos.com/art2/devilart/CindyII.jpg> </center>

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 08:23 AM
The 109 would have the definitive edge in all areas except cockpit visibility. And without "no handheld" warning on Revi the 109 pilot would no doubt start yanking his sight midflight.


http://sivusto.servepics.com/~lahnat/werre2s.jpg

From Finland with love

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 12:01 PM
The_Blue_Devil wrote:

The only reason the LW had so many 100+ aces was
- due to the Russian Front.



there were aces with more than 100 victories on the western front too. marseille for example had 158 victories (including 17 in one day, confirmed by experts from all sides). another example w³uld be heinz b¤r who scored 124 victories against the western allies.


so don´t simplify it too much /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



---------------------------------------



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under 30k?

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 01:17 PM
also the difference between the east and west air wars was size. in the east you usually had many small engagements, and pilots from both sides could engage and disengage according to their situation. seldom did pilots fly in any more than gruppe strength.

but in the west, it was one huge attack every single day, and german pilots could not go in Freie Jagd missions, they had to sit on the ground and wait to scramble. the luftwaffe would assault allied air formations in geschwader strength (one important difference from the east front), and then hit the bombers as hard as possible. pilots were not allowed, or discouraged, to disengage unless they were badly damaged or out of ammo, so they had to keep attacking and attacking, no matter what.

this was one fundamental difference between the air war in the east and west. in the east, you fight like 2 teams in a tennis match, the ball always comes into your court. in the west, it is like playing american football, you charge through a wall and hope to survive.

i hope i explained it clear, my english is not very good.

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 01:29 PM
This response: the plane with the better pilot...is dodging the question. You need to assume the pilot skills are equal and that the starting situations of the planes are equal. So now which plane has the advantage due to its flight characteristics, durability, pilot visibility, weapons. A computer model could likely give the answer.
One plane might be better at 1,000 feet while the other might be better at 20,000 feet. There may be no absolute answer.

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 01:36 PM
If you read "JG 26 War Diaries" a more detailed account of this combat is given. If my recollection is correct, this encounter is described from William Beyer point of view. It was a one on one situation, a lengthy encounter, both pilots had to give their best, it seems like it was on equal terms and Beyer nevertheless sacked him. Given the fact that Mietusch was a 75 kill ace eliminates any doubts that this was an inexperienced pilot. The P51 was described as faster more manoeuvrable thus better. P51 beats a Me109 any day.

nicli wrote:
-
- AdiGlunz wrote:
-- The Pony will win!
--
-- Klaus Mietusch a German expert:
--
-- On 17 September 1944 Mietusch was engaged in combat
-- with Mustangs. After gaining his 75th and final
-- victory he was shot down and killed in Bf 109 G-6
-- (W.Nr. 441 646) "Black 25" in the vicinity of
-- Rath-Aldekerk by the American ace, Lieutenant
-- William Beyer (9 victories) of the 376th Squadron of
-- the 361st Fighter Group, USAAF. He was posthumously
-- awarded the Eichenlaub (Nr 653) on 18 November.
--
--
-
- Well, Gerhard Koppen, a german expert (85 kills) was
- shot down in early 1942 by a Pe-2 and so was Hans
- Strelow (59 kills, but I'm not sure it wasn't more).
-
- The Pe-2 will win !
-
- More seriously, I don't know which plane is the best
- (if one can be said to be the best), but, in any
- case, the difference cannot be so important to
- determine the end of the fight.
-
- The P-51 with its 6 50's will be better for
- deflexion shooting while the 109G-10's armament will
- be far better for a quick point blank shooting (it's
- concentrated in the nose and the 30mm gun doesn't
- need more than a handful of hits to bring down any
- planes).
-
- The P-51 will be a little faster at medium to high
- levels, but, on the other hand, the 109 will climb a
- little better.
-
- And we can continue for pages like that...without
- any of the two getting a decisive edge over the
- other.
-
-

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 01:51 PM
The one that bounces the other.

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 02:12 PM
- P51 beats a Me109 any day.

That statement is rather unprecise because no mention on exact type of the 109. Maybe it was a G-6 perhaps with gondolas there's no doubt that the P-51 was more agile./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 04:59 PM
Nicli,

Just got done reading Knoke's book, "I FLEW FOR THE FUHRER", in which he makes some interesting comments -

According to Knoke, the air war over the German homeland was known among German fighter pilot fraternity as the "Graveyard of the German Jagdwaffe". Luftwaffe records bear this out. The fighter loss per sortie rate over Germany was very much higher than over the Eastern front. By 1944, the Luftwaffe was transferring large numbers of pilots and aircraft from the Eastern Front to Home Defence in response. Whereas the Eastern Front had been the main focus of effort for the LW through 1943, by the beginning of 1944, the main focus of effort had been switched to homeland defence. The demise of the German bomber force was also caused in large part by the Allied bombing campaign, as many bomber units were disbanded in for their pilots to be re-trained for fighters.

Essentially, the air war over Europe Germany inhaled the Luftwaffe and gutted it. One other interesting thing to consider is the effect of the demise of the LW bomber arm upon German ground operations.

Knoke also mentions that his unit had been essentially bled white of experienced pilots by February 1944, considerably before the introduction of the Mustang LR fighter escort in large numbers. This was before the huge numbers, before many LW fighters became loaded down with gondola guns and rocket tubes, etc, and before LR American escort fighters were able to reach deep enough into Germany to get at the more vulnerable twin-engine German bomber destroyers. This says something for the performance of those rookie 1943 American pilots and their aircraft in those early months of intense air fighting over Western Europe.

One observation regarding your comment about impressions of German fighter pilots who had transferred from the Desert to the Eastern Front. In the Desert air war, The British had not committed their first-line fighter units, which were withheld for homeland defence and the air battle over the channel. The vast majority of British and Commonwealth flying units in the Desert consisted of inexperienced pilots flying second line fighters, Hurricanes and Lend-Lease "Hawks". The Desert Air Force did not even get its first Spits (Mk V's !!) until mid-1942. By comparison, the Luftwaffe had sent to North Africa veteran fighter units flying first-line 109F & 109G series. By that period of time, the VVS indeed probably had a great deal more fighting experience under their belts

While conceding that a few German aces racked up 100+ scores in the West, examination of the LW experten list clearly shows that a very great majority of German experten made their big scores in the East.

BTW, I was interested to read in Knoke's book that the P47 was not always an armored one-man flying fortress. Knoke mentions several P47 kills in which his victim simple blew up upon being hit. This demonstrates the danger of making historical judgements based only upon historical anecdotes.


Blutarski

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 06:04 PM
Duel between P51 and Me109. Who wins?

Yak-3...

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 06:23 PM
When I fly the 109 the other plane will win......no matter which plane it is /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif .

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