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jazzadellic
09-26-2007, 11:20 PM
i'm trying to go through zeus cat's training campaign, i'm on the one right now where you do your first bomb drop onto a aircraft carrier.

ok i am following all zeus' instructions to the T, but once I get near the boat, and i'm up at a high altitude like 7000-10000, out of nowhere my plane just lurches out of control, like it is being blown around by super strong wind. It seems to always start going into a spin and a dive. I have to struggle real hard for a few thousand feet to get it back to level, but as soon as I do that, it does it again, and again, until eventually i just can't avoid diving head first into the water. I watched a playback video, and at the very moment my plane got knocked out of control, there was like a trail of smoke coming off my wing tips, as I managed to get the plane back into control, the wing-tip smoke trail went away, but then I can see the exact moment my plane goes out of control again and the wing-tip smoke trail comes back. This is frustrating the heck out of me because it happens everytime, and right before it happens, everything looks normal and perfectly on track. I was able to avoid crashing the last time it happened, but I went from 9000 feet to about 200 feet in a few seconds. ANd therefore I couldn't complete the dive bomb objective.

what is this that is happening and how do I regain control better and faster? I am spinning and diving straight at the ground for thousands of feet before I am able to regain a small margin of control, only to have it happen again immediately.

Grand_Armee
09-26-2007, 11:48 PM
You're stalling and going into a spin, Dude.

If, when you are flying at lower altitudes with an aircraft and you make really hard maneuvers, you'll notice wingtip 'smoke' as well.

At higher altitudes the air is much thinner, so you need to be going faster to avoid a stall. A Stall is what occurs when your wings lose enough lift to keep the plane flying.

Fly faster, and if you're heavy-handed like me, you might want to try a force-feedback stick. Did the trick for me.


Good Luck!

jazzadellic
09-27-2007, 12:06 AM
i thought when you stall your engine goes off? I still hear my engine running when this happens, and i Have the power at almost full, 90-100% so how can I go faster?

Grand_Armee
09-27-2007, 12:16 AM
An (air)Stall has nothing to do with with your engine taking a dump. It's all about your wings and airflow.

I don't know which a/c you're flying, ao I don't know how helpful what I tell you will be.

To gain speed, you can: a) fly level and be patient. b) Put your nose down just a little and gain speed slightly faster than (a).

Some planes don't like the thin air up there. Especially when carrying a bombload.

I'm certain there are others who can tell you better things than me because I don't have the experience of many. Let them know your plane type and they should be able to help with superchargers, propeller pitch, and a host of other things that I never worry about in the German fighters I fly.

Good Luck!

GIAP.Shura
09-27-2007, 12:22 AM
These are two different uses of the word stall. In general life, stall is usually applied to cars and does indeed mean that the engine stops. Most of the time in aviation it means that the amount of lift provided by the wing is lower than the amount of drag, resulting in the plane dropping.

This is caused by either low speeds or disruption of airflow over the wing. As noted above, at higher altitudes there is less air, so the airflow is harder to maintain. That means no sudden maneuvres or hard climbs. I suspect the main problem you are having is that you are not engaging the supercharger. This should be done around 2,500m (8,000').

Lurch1962
09-27-2007, 12:29 AM
The wingtip "smoke" you refer to is actually water vapour condensing out of the air due to the lower pressure within the wingtip vortices. A much more spectacular manifestation of this you've possibly already seen when observing video of jet fighters performing hard turns in the direction of their lift vector. In such case, most of the upper surface of the wing is enveloped in a foggy shroud (and that's just what it is--fog).

In the game, these wingtip vapour trails are a sure indicator that your plane's either in a stall or close to it.

And no, the engine doesn't necessarily stop while the plane is in stall. Of course, it could quit if it has a float carburetor and is in zero or negative G.

F19_Orheim
09-27-2007, 02:24 AM
Originally posted by jazzadellic:
i thought when you stall your engine goes off? I still hear my engine running when this happens, and i Have the power at almost full, 90-100% so how can I go faster?

Supercharger? Fuel mix?

Ares_336sqn
09-27-2007, 06:27 AM
Complex Engine Management (http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=Knowledge_Base&op=show&kid=249&page=1)

UgoRipley
09-27-2007, 06:52 AM
Originally posted by jazzadellic:
i thought when you stall your engine goes off? I still hear my engine running when this happens, and i Have the power at almost full, 90-100% so how can I go faster?
Sometimes a full spin recovery can be a fast operation, other times can last many seconds.

During a long recovery, do you experts suggest cutting the throttle ?
Could it help (at least) in reducing "deck closure rate", or could it even help in recovering from the spin ?
I'm thinking also about the changing torque involved in such a manouvre.
Or maybe it is easier to recover from a spin without touching throttle ??

buzzsaw1939
09-27-2007, 08:35 AM
Ugo.. Before the chart guys get here, yes, torque is a factor, it's best to learn stall recognition and recovery before your in a spin, I used to teach spins and would let them get into one, then show them how to avoid them, good way to go in game also! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

M_Gunz
09-27-2007, 09:59 AM
Originally posted by jazzadellic:
i'm trying to go through zeus cat's training campaign, i'm on the one right now where you do your first bomb drop onto a aircraft carrier.

ok i am following all zeus' instructions to the T, but once I get near the boat, and i'm up at a high altitude like 7000-10000, out of nowhere my plane just lurches out of control, like it is being blown around by super strong wind.

You have a LOT to learn about flying. OTOH the money you spent should last you a long time!

See if you can get a track of that mission flown and watch the speed. Also watch "the ball"
(ball in a "smiley" curved tube on the dash there) and see how it's supposed to stay centered.
If it ain't and you stall then you spin and if it is you just drop if you keep it there.
If the ball moves to the right then rudder that much to the right (smoothly!) until it is
back in the middle. When you are at low airspeed and the plane tilts, don't use side stick
but rather rudder away from the tilt (the ball will lag after the tilt, go by the tilt first)
to correct, this is most important when near the ground and flying slow.

Stall is when the wings are at too high an angle coming into the air. Airflow over the wings
becomes turbulent and drag becomes very high. You don't lose lift until the angle becomes
very high but when the drag slows you down -- well lift is by the square of your speed **at
the same angle of attack (already too high in stall condition, but other times you can get
more lift by little bit of nose up but know that drag will increase as well)** so as you slow
down you then lose lift which happens so fast many will say there is no lift when stalled.

Stall Speed is the speed at which your plane can no longer hold its altitude in straight level
flight and... there's conditions. Clean Stall is flaps and gear up, dirty stall is not but
usually both flaps and gear down for landing. How loaded is the plane, fuel and ammo in our
game cases changes the Stall Speed.

When most things say Stall Speed they are about Reference Stall Speed which is clean or dirty
(if it don't say dirty then it's probably clean power off stall) and engine at Idle, not off
with the prop making huge drag.
The FAA and EAA have very strict rules for determining Reference Stall Speed by manufacturers,
like use of trim (must be trimmed at just above speed and left that way) and how fast the plane
can be slowing down (cause too quick is a cheat, gets a lower value than it should) before it
drops. All you need to know to check is trim it before you approach the speed, drop power to
idle and nose up gently as you slow down, trying to stay in level flight and noting when you
can't -- in many cases one wing will drop first no matter how hard you try, but not always.
Reference Stall is determined with a fully loaded plane but consider that with 5% less weight
you still need over 97% speed to stay level.

Reading much aero texts you have to know things they don't spell out, is the pilot changing
the pitch (how far the nose is pointing up or down) or not? Things like that. Stall Speed
test has the pilot trying to stay level while flying straight and no real power. He has to
keep bringing the nose up to increase lift while slowing down. At some point the wind over
the wings breaks from smooth flow and that is the critical point, the plane sinks or a wing
drops +and+ the plane sinks (let it sink to gain speed, rudder to get the wings level) and
you have your data for straight and level.

If you are NOT flying straight then your Stall Speed becomes Accelerated since in a turn your
plane is Accelerating (change direction and/or speed is acceleration) and therefore at more
than the 1 Gravity of straight and level flight. The plane being at more than 1 G effectively
weighs more. A 2 G turn requires twice the lift as straight and level but since lift at any
Angle of Attack (angle of wings to "oncoming air") increases with square of speed (so twice
the speed at stall AOA gets four times the lift) you need to fly *at least* square root of
your G's times 1 G stall to stay in level turn, 41% (or more) faster to maintain the turn.
If you don't then you will either spiral down or enter Accelerated Stall and probably spin.

Why you "check" is so you know how slow IAS (Indicated Air Speed) YOU can go before losing it,
perhaps someone else can go a bit slower but YOU need to know what speed YOU must stay above
when flying level. For instance, final approach should be at stall PLUS 30%, when you have
the flaps and gear down you go by dirty stall which you will find is slower.

Why else you check is to know how the plane handles at and near the stall condition because
THAT is what you will be looking for in most flying not takeoff or landing. The plane will
feel sluggish and a bit wobbly, time to add power or get the nose down or better, BOTH.

Those wingtip vortices are good indicators but you can't watch your wingtips full time, you
can get a feel for control but note it changes some from plane to plane.

Keep the ball centered and keep your speed above stall, you will not spin it is that simple.
BTW, Spitfires do not have a ball in a tube. They have Slip and Bank needle gages wayyy down
on the lower front panel.

Spend time learning to fly before you go Fly Combat and you will be much less frustrated.
Learn to walk before running before running and shooting. Start with take off, circle the
airport and land until you don't F that up then move on to maneuvers, the basics and then
the advanced. You get that far then you are better than half the online DF crowd that did
not bother and expect to spin out regularly after they have pulled into stall without even
knowing -- REALLY they post here, they don't know stall from spin and until they spin they
have no idea they were already wrong! These are players with kill counts and think they are
hot and problem is with the game! Really 1-800-STUPIDO!

So learn your turns and rolls, wingovers, loops, Immelmans, barrel rolls and yoyo's before
you bother to shoot. It's no good just running in to take a shot if you can't line it up.
The guy with more maneuvers is going to be able to put them together better to end up with
the better shot while the other just may end up saying "huh, what did HE just do?".

It couldn't hurt if you have time and intelligence to read up on ground school course materials
online for real pilots. You don't have to read ALL of it but the more you get, the better you
will do. Really, just flying well is very rewarding -- there's people who make a career of it!

M_Gunz
09-27-2007, 10:06 AM
Originally posted by UgoRipley:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jazzadellic:
i thought when you stall your engine goes off? I still hear my engine running when this happens, and i Have the power at almost full, 90-100% so how can I go faster?
Sometimes a full spin recovery can be a fast operation, other times can last many seconds.

During a long recovery, do you experts suggest cutting the throttle ?
Could it help (at least) in reducing "deck closure rate", or could it even help in recovering from the spin ?
I'm thinking also about the changing torque involved in such a manouvre.
Or maybe it is easier to recover from a spin without touching throttle ?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I put throttle to idle just to not add energy to the spin. If need be, I'll drop the gear.
I try and slow it down.

Big important for me is not to use aileron to try and get the stalled wing back up.
That only increases AOA of that wing, stalls it worse. Opposite rudder though is good but
usually if the spin is not past turn one just let go of the stick and power to idle does
the job.

willyvic
09-27-2007, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Big important for me is not to use aileron to try and get the stalled wing back up.
That only increases AOA of that wing, stalls it worse. Opposite rudder though is good...

Very important when low and slow such as on a carrier approach. In that case, power on and opposite rudder may save your aircraft. Good point Gunz.

WV

EmKen
09-27-2007, 11:36 AM
I'm not a real flyer, just a simmer, but I cut the engine and let gravity take its course. With dirty great engines in the front of the planes that most of us fly, they generally head downwards pretty quick, increasing airflow across control surfaces and giving a little bit of authority back to the pilot.
In this situation, you are essentially using 2 dimensions, and the automobile trick of steering into the spin is effective, hence the effectiveness of the rudder.
This scenario is best appreciated when you stall an Airacobra, because with the engine in the middle of the airframe, positioned roughly at the centre of gravity, these standard procedures are totally ineffective.
When this happens, I hit the silk and go to external cam -is ther anything else to do?!!

Emken

buzzsaw1939
09-28-2007, 01:31 PM
Well done Gunz..I might add, an old teaching trick is to step on the ball as if it were a bar of soap, haveing said that, it's kind of hard to watch the ball in game, the best thing to do is practice turning tell your wing starts to suddenly rise, snap your stick slightly forward while kicking rudder to the riseing wing tell it stops, if you practice this, you will get good at recognizing the condition of a stall spin entry much better!

VW-IceFire
09-28-2007, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by EmKen:
When this happens, I hit the silk and go to external cam -is ther anything else to do?!!
Emken
I haven't found any...when a P-39 goes into a spin its basically lost. I think I've managed to recover 1 out of 10 times I've done it. Its VERY hard to recover this plane...most others can be done to varying degrees of difficulty. Some planes just refuse to spin...never spun a FW190 for instance.

roybaty
09-28-2007, 04:41 PM
Also i think you are getting feet mixed up with meters 10000 meters ~ 30,000 ft.

Hardly anything is very solid at 30,000 ft, and maneuvering at that altitude is very difficult in most aircraft in this game save for maybe the rockets and jets.

SeaFireLIV
09-28-2007, 04:54 PM
just in case you never heard `em the first time. The engine does not have to be off or even running at low speed to stall.

dduff442
09-28-2007, 11:40 PM
Re: P-400/P-39 spin recovery

P-39 spins are recoverable in-game, though the procedure is different from most a/c because of the centre-of-gravity issue. Set throttle to idle, flaps fully down, stick forward, apply opposite rudder and bank **into** the spin. After a few seconds the spin will become unstable and airspeed will increase, though it takes longer and you'll lose more altitude than with most fighter a/c. Pull out as normal once the airspeed is high enough.

Apparently the A/C was susceptible to non-recoverable spins in R/L if the ammunition for the main cannon was exhausted. This shifted the CoG too far to the rear to make recovery possible. As changes in CoG during flight are not modeled in game, this isn't an issue in Il-2.

Regards,
dduff

VMF-214_HaVoK
09-29-2007, 12:04 AM
When your up that high you want to fly with trim. Trim is your friend!

S!

M_Gunz
09-29-2007, 06:58 AM
Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
Well done Gunz..I might add, an old teaching trick is to step on the ball as if it were a bar of soap, haveing said that, it's kind of hard to watch the ball in game, the best thing to do is practice turning tell your wing starts to suddenly rise, snap your stick slightly forward while kicking rudder to the riseing wing tell it stops, if you practice this, you will get good at recognizing the condition of a stall spin entry much better!

I practice no combat flying with view down to where I can just see over the dash plus the panels.
After a while I get used to enough other indications that I don't need to see the ball often,
like speedometer on a car I usually have a good idea short term at least (tend to go fast).

I've practiced rudder while flying backside of the curve just keeping the horizon level is tricky.

Back in 99 I had told a friend who flew in WWII about using side stick to keep from rolling
on takeoffs in EAW and he gave me lessons in why never do that IRL! I didn't think of that
ailerons were more than air-deflectors even though I'd seen the reality in print before then.

Do you think that the wobble so many people talk about may just be dutch weaves?

buzzsaw1939
09-29-2007, 01:34 PM
Gunz..Yup!.. Thats the way I fly also, I set my center on my TIR when I look up about 10 degrees, then a slight nod of the head checks my ball, but I hardly ever look at my slip ball, unless I sense I'm sliping.

Although I'm not a 51 fan, I've been praticeing in it, to figure this thing out, I am finding that the wobble is so small with more practice, I can under stand why some don't see it, in my opinion, the 51 is touchy on controls, and it is very trim sensative, if you can get past that lagg, and get it stable enough, I can get more hits, right now I think I could go on line and hold my own, but I don't think I would get many kills just chew them up for someone else! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

For the guys who are haveing trouble under standing the trim lagg that I keep bringing up, try this, go in to qmb, set up the 51-D for example, to start in flight, go to about 80% power, as the nose climbs to about 30 or 40 degrees, press your down trim without moveing the stick, you will see almost a 2 second lagg before it starts moveing, this is not realistic in any aircaft, if it's not instantaneous, it's worthless!

M_Gunz
09-29-2007, 03:43 PM
It should move while you hold the button or key and stop when you let go to be realistic but
so far the code just doesn't support that. Believe me, we asked. What it started out as was
instant trim but those that put trim 'on a slider' (HOTAS slider or rotary) were able to trim
from neutral to full just that fast and you can't touch that tapping keys, believe it!

In reality with manual trim wheel it takes a while for sure so there was a hue and cry of cheat
that got a quick fix which -- if you think there's a delay now it used to be 20 seconds to full
based on some planes took that long of rolla-rolla-rolla.

Trim is delayed yes, but for small amounts of trim it's very short. What kicks me is the lack
of feedback beyond watching the nose, which is like 'flying the (VSI) needle', you HAVE to
anticipate or you end up all over the sky.

Trim is not only delayed but once you set it in, by slider or holding a key/button down for
more than 1/4 or 1/2 second (I forget which) then the trim moves to wherever and there's no
way to stop it until it's done. It's a separate computer task without communication to the
user which I can understand is part of a quick (and 'dirty') fix. I didn't pilot for a
living, I mostly wrote code so I really do understand it's one of those things that just be
happy you have something at all.

I have personally asked for changes since near the start, even before that 'fix' but more
after. Answer is no due to code size, original code design and hardware limits -- which in
the business is legitimate btw.
When the delay was introduced I asked for a stop button because I never turned trim IRL more
than it needed, the stick got lighter AS I trimmed, not afterward. Not going to happen.
I asked for one button trim that if stick was off-center that hit the key and trim would wind
in just enough to trim that to center, hit key and slowly loosen the stick, it would be the
right amount at least. Also not going to happen.
By the time that fix was made the code was already a mess. The fix is like wires nailed to
the outside of a house only worse. It is there and only change is how fast the delay is.

If you put trim on a rotary or a slider you can at least see where you're setting it to...
maybe-sorta. You can also trim in between where key/button clicks will let you. OTOH it
is still a PITA 'feature' that rivals the view system LOD's as worst thing about the sim
engine.

Best thing I can say is forget realistic detail about trim and learn to use it as it is.
If you have a second hat that's not too hard to get to then try key-mapping that hat to
elevator and rudder trim otherwise set up rotaries if you got em and one other thing.....

PRAY FOR SOW TO GET IT CLOSER TO RIGHT!

buzzsaw1939
09-29-2007, 07:39 PM
I have my trims on a hat switch where my thumb is, and am getting used to the lagg, it's just hard for me to belive they would do that to an otherwise very realistic sim, I'm getting used to anticepateing the lagg, I just hope it doesn't screw up my real time flying! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

UgoRipley
09-30-2007, 02:27 AM
I did some P-51 trim tests yesterday (I don't fly it regularly), and you know what Buzzsaw ???

I just don't see any "lag", as you keep saying.
It's not an instantaneous reaction, ok, but it behaves more or less just as all the other airplanes I'm used to play with.

I'm not a real pilot myself, so I'm only speaking off my 1946 sim experience. I don't know if IRL trim reactions are really "instantaneous" as you would want your trim to react.
Shouldn't there be "slowing" factors like airplane mass and weight to consider in the equation ?

M_Gunz
09-30-2007, 03:21 AM
If you hold a trim key down for a complete second or two or move slider a good fraction then
the trim will keep moving for a longer by multiplied time. If you tap a trim key even a
couple-three times the delay is very short.
If you were here long enough you would know the delay was put in via posts from Oleg and why,
the posts by members gone psycho over "bat turns".
If you load up and run the original IL2 then you will be able to see what it is like without
any delay time to trim action though I can't remember what patch the trim delay was added.
And yes, just lately in development terms (4.07?) the delay was made shorter.

Just trim up for level flight which if you use key trim, get as close as you can (adjust
power a tiny bit might tweak you perfect level) and then trim more than a tiny bit down and
leave the stick alone while you watch. Make sure you have good alt to start, bon apetite.

IRL you hold the stick/yoke and you trim by wheel or switch until there is no force on the
stick/yoke. Without FFB on a full size stick that's about impossible to replicate accurately.

You might want to ask Buzzsaw1939 how many hours he has logged IRL just for giggles before
accusing him of not knowing about 'settling' effects. IRL since you place the controls in
the right position before trimming the plane is already started but then that is the case
in game if you're not pre-trimming before hard maneuvers that will slow you down.

If you lower the nose IRL then it does take a while for the full speeding up to happen but
then the nose (actually all I noticed was alt would start to increase slightly, pain in the
butt when you want to hold the alt you trimmed at) will tend to +rise+ just a bit (due to
increased speed) if ANYTHING (it's hard to tell such small angle in small planes, MUCH easier
to notice change in alt), not continue going down for so many full seconds as in game.
To be fair, in game after the trim is done feeding in you then get the real effect but until
then you need to be easing up on the joystick which is neat if you are going to be flying a
steady path the whole time.

It is very easy to input too much trim in game and then have to wait until that is finished
before trying to correct it back. You can move to correct before it's done but it will first
finish what you set in the first time.. there is no stop button unless neutralize trim key
will do it.

As I wrote above, with current user hardware it is really impossible to replicate how trim
is done in real. Please let's hope that SOW has resources to watch trim key and adjust only
WHILE it is held down, that's the best we can hope for short of full size FFB sticks.

UgoRipley
09-30-2007, 03:42 AM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
You might want to ask Buzzsaw1939 how many hours he has logged IRL just for giggles before
accusing him of not knowing about 'settling' effects.
I'm just NOT accusing anyone of anything.

buzzsaw1939
09-30-2007, 09:38 AM
Ugo.. He knows that.. He's just ribbing you! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Gunz...that up and down chasing the trim is where I have the most trouble, spent too many years makeing quick hand moves to stabalize, in RL its just natural to feel it! too bad you can't steal the code from MS flight sims, of all the stuff they got wrong, they got that one right! oh well.

M_Gunz
09-30-2007, 10:03 PM
The main parts of what I responded to.

I just don't see any "lag", as you keep saying.

I don't know if IRL trim reactions are really "instantaneous" as you would want your trim to react.

Why don't people read to understand instead of to feel and be concerned with personal status?
This is two people in the same week that post one thing and deny any disagreement that if they
read what they wrote is disagreement.

Buzzsaw1939, if you hit the trim button/key for just a bit too long then it feeds in more than
a small amount. Don't let the click go more than about 1/4, maybe 1/5 second. With key trim
I might find myself giving 12 quick taps after changing speed much in maneuver and that takes
a few seconds to finish before I can back it up if need be.
The worst time is when you've lost speed in turn lining up for shooting and out of trim. That
leads to nose bobbing in the planes that don't get yaw which IMO is gyro effect modeling,
push force on a gyro and it wants to go 90 degrees different -- less RPM should lessen that
and indeed since 4.01 I had played with that and it does make a difference. High power to
weight prop pilots, those IRL aerobatics guys like TX-EcoDragon and Iceman Fred can probably
give tips (have already on other things) there -- IIRC Iceman did testing and feedback for
this sim.

Hey don't jet engines with all that high speed spinning metal inside make gyro effects?

STENKA_69.GIAP
10-01-2007, 05:46 AM
Originally posted by GIAP.Shura:
This is caused by either low speeds or disruption of airflow over the wing.

No and Yes.

The stall itself is caused by the angle of incidence of the wing to the relative airflow disrupting the airflow over the edges of the wing.

If you try pushing a barn door vertical (90?)against the wind the airflow goes up, over the top and breaks up into turbulence.

If the same barn door is flat or at a slight angle (e.g. 10?) the airflow goes round the top of the leading edge accellerating and smoothly follows the back of the door without turbulence.

Now for each profile of wing there is a critical angle of incidence at which the airflow breaks up and stall occurs. This is at any speed (ignoring near zero and near supersonic where other factors can intervene).

Speed is related in that for a given angle of incidence at an air density lift is proportional to the square of the airspeed.

As speed reduces the pilot typicaly is pulling back on the stick to increace the angle of incidence thus maintaining lift and height. Alternatively the pilot may be pulling back on the stick in order to increace lift thus tightening a turn. Again the stall occurs at the point at which the critical angle of incidence to the relative airflow is exceeded. It can be at any speed.

Of course, the slower and higher you are going the more risk of stall but a real bozo can stall it at max speed at sea level. I'll show you if you like.

buzzsaw1939
10-01-2007, 09:12 AM
Gunz... Thanks for the tip on short stabs of the trim, I'm off to try it, I hope your right! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

If you mean torque when you say gyro effect,

No torque effects with jets. Has to do with smaller spinning mass or something, the way I understand it! ie. Longer props have more torque effect.

Gyro effects would have to be high, but no effect on air frame or flight that I know of.

GIAP.Shura
10-01-2007, 09:57 AM
Originally posted by STENKA_69.GIAP:
Of course, the slower and higher you are going the more risk of stall but a real bozo can stall it at max speed at sea level. I'll show you if you like.

Don't worry, I've got plenty of experience being that bozo. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif