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View Full Version : Energy fighting=Fewer kills?



C.W.M.V.
11-21-2010, 12:41 AM
So, backstory;
Ive finally reached the end of my first fighter campaign. I had it set up so that from the beginning to the end I was BF-109 pure, or so I thought...Got wounded by a few Yak's trying to escort a recon plane (I was still getting used to the transition from 109G-2 to G-6 AS) and was hospitalized, when I came back 6 months later I was flying a Dora-9. WOW! It does everything well, except turn.

So Ive found that Ive been forced to energy fight. So far Staying above 2000 meters, maintaining 400 kph+ and avoiding sharp turns unless absolutely necessary. Works well against the AI and in the vertical fight the D-9 is supreme.
Only thing is my kill count has gone WAY down. In a 109G-2 I was could knock out 5 kills/mission easily if in a target rich environment, now sometimes I land without ever having fired a shot.
Is this common? or am I doing something wrong? Id like to think that its a symptom of going from fighting Mig-3's and I-16's to LA-5FN and -7's. One thing is for sure, LA-7=pain in my ***.

Romanator21
11-21-2010, 02:49 AM
Maybe fewer kills per sortie, but ultimately, you may get more kills simply because you will live longer http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

M_Gunz
11-21-2010, 03:06 AM
Do you yo-yo to follow a fast circling enemy?

K_Freddie
11-21-2010, 04:42 AM
Energy tactics is the way to stay alive, but if you time your attacks well and choose the right targets, you can use other tactics.

You can DF a bit, but you must know when to run like hell.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

ScarsdaleJack
11-21-2010, 06:05 AM
Dying=fewer kills in real life
Dying=fewer kills in the sim
Anything you do to keep from dying=good

DKoor
11-21-2010, 08:26 AM
Originally posted by ScarsdaleJack:
Dying=the end of things in real life
Dying=fewer kills in the sim
Anything you do to keep from dying=good
^
Fixt http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

MD_Titus
11-21-2010, 08:30 AM
you'll get the kills as your gunnery reaches a level of prescience where you can pull off high angle deflection shots by instinct. dogfighting tends to drop you into the bandits 4-6 a lot more, or you get the higher angle shots whilst scissoring - a lot closer than you will when bnzing. once your gunnery picks up you should get as many kills as dogfighting, especially if you work hard at ammo conservation, ie shorter more accurate bursts that drop a small but well aimed curtain of lead in front of and through bandits.

Chivas
11-21-2010, 12:09 PM
You usually get fewer kills Boom and Zooming because most of the time it takes more than one pass to finish off your victim. In the mean time others could easily finish him off, especially flying on-line.

DKoor
11-21-2010, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by MD_Titus:
you'll get the kills as your gunnery reaches a level of prescience where you can pull off high angle deflection shots by instinct. dogfighting tends to drop you into the bandits 4-6 a lot more, or you get the higher angle shots whilst scissoring - a lot closer than you will when bnzing. once your gunnery picks up you should get as many kills as dogfighting, especially if you work hard at ammo conservation, ie shorter more accurate bursts that drop a small but well aimed curtain of lead in front of and through bandits.
^^ all mentioned and also another important thing.
Although it is always good to bnz people (TBH I always do bnz attack style in ANY plane, so that means I bnz in Spitfire too http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) but that doesn't get as efficient on externals and pit off server as it gets on pit always on servers.

...

You can actually really surprise people on "hard" settings and therefore you may do a good job in P-51 alike planes because you get more trigger time on non evading target; whereas you can only do good in MG equipped planes if the ones you fly against are bored, busy with something or simply noobs who for example climb to meet you etc. Otherwise there is no way you will rack up kills nearly efficient any cannons equipped crate, let alone FW and alike ones...

For me FW is actually one of the easiest planes to fly on the pit off servers (also not very hard on pit on either) because you have speed and firepower and with some experience and patience you can rack up kills like there is no tomorrow... for me that planes is far far from "experten" plane... (not that I'm trying to get this thread to turn into FW bashing or something).

For more info see;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NLQUpwPEqA&NR=1
...2:50-3:20 for more colorful description.
You'll catch my drift easilyhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

Bankoletti
11-21-2010, 01:57 PM
La-7s are a pain in the *** simply because the AI cheats. They don't break up in a dive at 700kph (like they do when player controlled), which means you loose one of the most important advantages over them which makes them a much easier opponent online. 190 easily outdives any fighter from La stable - you can use this to your advantage online.

Another thought - one thing I always disliked in IL-2 about AI behaviour is that they always spot you when you approach them from behind and take evasive maneouver. This is of course far from reality. It's impossible to dive on your opponent, sneak up from behind, blast away and climb back up without him noticing you and trying to avoid your fire. You can do this online.

Energy fighting = getting killed less often.

DKoor
11-21-2010, 02:20 PM
Also those Ai gunners need fixing too, even if the human-pilot did not spotted us, they always see us, not to mention that they can high-deflection hit a pigeon in their dewinged plane...

BillSwagger
11-21-2010, 02:22 PM
Energy fighting + opportunity = more kills

I can't speak for offline missions, but if the majority of people on a server fly low and slow, then energy fighting can leave fewer opponents other than trying to swipe someone in BnZ, and unless you have cannons that tends to be less rewarding.

I've racked up 5+ kills in one sortie multiple times using E tactics, but it seems to only be when most players are also in the energy game.

Energy fighting is not always as rewarding as turn fighting for this reason.

Bankoletti
11-21-2010, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by DKoor:
Also those Ai gunners need fixing too, even if the human-pilot did not spotted us, they always see us, not to mention that they can high-deflection hit a pigeon in their dewinged plane...

How true. I can't remember the last time I've managed attack and down a Bf-110 or He-111 in my P-51, diving on him from a few km altitude advantage, shooting him with a high deflection - without him hitting my prop spinner and disabling my pitch governor in return! In reality that would have been an impossible shot to make, yet in Il-2, an AI controlled gunner pulls it off nearly always.

Not even to mention the Letov -328 gunner. Anyone up for a challenge - pick an I-15 or something and try to down one of these. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Metatron_123
11-21-2010, 03:02 PM
There is a mod that enables you to surprise the ai pilots when diving on their six. Unfortunately it doesn't do anything about the cheating diving limits...

M_Gunz
11-21-2010, 05:15 PM
You can energy fight without leaving the target. You don't have be high-smashing dive BnZ to energy fight.

Jumoschwanz
11-21-2010, 07:26 PM
You should be able to out-turn and beat Ace AI with anything you fly. You just need more practice.

DKoor
11-22-2010, 05:00 AM
Originally posted by Jumoschwanz:
You should be able to out-turn and beat Ace AI with anything you fly. You just need more practice. ^^

And you know you mastered it when you solo several ace Spitfires Mk.IX 25 lbs' in some random 109 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif .

TgD Thunderbolt56
11-22-2010, 08:23 AM
Energy fighting, if done correctly, is the quintessential method to DF in WWII era aircraft. It equals fewer kills per sortie often times (not always) but also provides for a much higher K/D ratio.

Bremspropeller
11-22-2010, 08:59 AM
For me FW is actually one of the easiest planes to fly on the pit off servers (also not very hard on pit on either) because you have speed and firepower and with some experience and patience you can rack up kills like there is no tomorrow... for me that planes is far far from "experten" plane... (not that I'm trying to get this thread to turn into FW bashing or something).

That kinda speaks for the design, doesn't it? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

M_Gunz
11-22-2010, 06:21 PM
How easy and well the FW does depends on the pilot's ability to fly, shoot deflection and use energy-fighting techniques.
Your average noob doesn't do any of that well and will try use a 190 to get co-speed with slow targets just to be able to try and sit off his six and shoot at close range. Every FW is poorly suited for that. It can work given a lame enough target but in general the pilot makes the plane and a FW has capability enough for very, very good pilots.

DKoor
11-23-2010, 09:35 AM
Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> For me FW is actually one of the easiest planes to fly on the pit off servers (also not very hard on pit on either) because you have speed and firepower and with some experience and patience you can rack up kills like there is no tomorrow... for me that planes is far far from "experten" plane... (not that I'm trying to get this thread to turn into FW bashing or something).

That kinda speaks for the design, doesn't it? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Aye, true dat. Fearsome machine. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

K_Freddie
11-24-2010, 01:01 PM
Actually the FW thrives on full pit servers as it's more difficult for any a/c that cannot match roll-rate, or have the same equivalent all round views, to keep up. Even the P51 has difficulty staying with the FW in this case.

After flying full pit for so long, I find I'm useless on open pit and get 'chewed up' very quickly - no matter what plane, but it's fun non the less.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

C.W.M.V.
12-01-2010, 04:34 AM
I have no problems with the Doras, Ill take my D-9 or D-15 ( http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif ) and happily fly them any day. P-38's are a dream to BnZ in, and really I cant think of a plane that gives me more trouble than the damn 190A-5. I just CANT get the short nose 190's to work!
Anemic power, dismal climb rate, slow acceleration, but eventually like a snowball rolling down hill it can get to a decent airspeed. Takes half my damn mission just to climb to 3000 meters! And the snap stall! Even worse than the Dora!
Ive tried soooooo many times to get the damn thing to work, but in the end i always default back to 109 G-2. It doesn't have the firepower, but at least I can do more than run away from a fight in it!
Im just plain stumped. maybe my new TrackIr will give me a better way to employ this AC?
Ok, end rant.

K_Freddie
12-01-2010, 06:30 AM
Takes half my damn mission just to climb to 3000 meters!
Short missions ? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Don't force the climb - going level, nose up slightly keeping speed at 400+ kph and let it climb by itself and you'll go up like a rocket.


And the snap stall! Even worse than the Dora!..
When pulling hard, you must apply a little rudder as well to avoid the snap.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

K_Freddie
12-01-2010, 06:42 AM
Jump into the short nose FW (or any prop a/c) and do some recordings on.

1) Slowly increasing pitch
2) Sudden pitch application

In both cases near the top end of pitch, you'll notice the a/c starting to twist and skew. This is due to propwash and engine torque becoming prevalent forces causing unbalanced airflow over the wings. This is what causes the snap and countering it requires a quick cordinated application of rudder with pitch.

Don't over apply the rudder as you'll just fall out the sky in the other direction.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

C.W.M.V.
12-01-2010, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by K_Freddie:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Takes half my damn mission just to climb to 3000 meters!
Short missions ? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Don't force the climb - going level, nose up slightly keeping speed at 400+ kph and let it climb by itself and you'll go up like a rocket.

Ok, its got to be better than what Im doing!
I am going to get this thing flying dammit!


And the snap stall! Even worse than the Dora!..
When pulling hard, you must apply a little rudder as well to avoid the snap.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Same thing I do in the Dora's and TA's, but they seem alot easier to anticipate/read that the Antons.

Xnomad
12-01-2010, 11:37 PM
I've got one thing to say about flying the FW 190 and that's '6DOF'.

The plane is amazing once you can actually see something!

The destructive power is just nuts, maybe not so much with the Dora, but with the Antons it's almost not fair! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

M_Gunz
12-02-2010, 03:17 AM
Originally posted by C.W.M.V.:
Same thing I do in the Dora's and TA's, but they seem alot easier to anticipate/read that the Antons.

Try not snapping the stick back and you'll do better. Every bit of pull on the stick, be watching how the nose responds and if it slows down you quit pulling back and maybe loosen up a little. A well made turn or pitch-up needs to be started smoothly with good attention. Just yanking the stick back to 'about where it should go' is poor piloting that anyone can do better.

Xiolablu3
12-02-2010, 03:45 AM
I agree that once you master energy fighting and the heavier fighter 'style', the Fw190 is just a dream vs the slower 'turners'.


I must admit I dont fly at the moment, but the last time I did, my favourite planes were :

Bf109F4/G2
Fw190A4/A5/A6
P47D
FW190D9
Tempest
And the Spitfire is always a great all-rounder for the Allies to have at their disposal. Jack of all trades kind of thing.

I also used to love a bit of T34 tankbusting with the Me110G2 and 37BK cannon. (You must hit the top to destroy them)

I MUST get back into flying, I keep threatening to join Blairgowries UBIZOO Coops but never seem to have the time.

Are the UKdedicated servers still running?

Its snowing here, I may do all the reinstalling today in fact and get back into the skies. I must admit, the mods and each side having their 'favoured flight model' scares me off (The Fw190 crowd think it doesnt turn correctly, P51 is undermodelled and 'we' did a better job, just for example) sort of puts me off. Should I be worried about this?

(Sorry if I am derailing the thread, if it gets long winded I will shut up!)

C.W.M.V.
12-04-2010, 04:40 AM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C.W.M.V.:
Same thing I do in the Dora's and TA's, but they seem alot easier to anticipate/read that the Antons.

Try not snapping the stick back and you'll do better. Every bit of pull on the stick, be watching how the nose responds and if it slows down you quit pulling back and maybe loosen up a little. A well made turn or pitch-up needs to be started smoothly with good attention. Just yanking the stick back to 'about where it should go' is poor piloting that anyone can do better. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Who said anything about yanking the stick back? I havent yanked on the stick since "janes IAF" way back in the day.
Flying other planes is easy, even the 190D9/11/13/15 or the TA's, but the anton snaps soooooo much faster than any of those, and has none of the climb/speed advantages.
Just tried it again in a Defense of the Reich mission. Got my butt whooped by a '47 razorback. Did the same mission over again in a 109, 6 kills-no losses. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif
Whatever, I give.


Originally posted by Xnomad:
I've got one thing to say about flying the FW 190 and that's '6DOF'.

The plane is amazing once you can actually see something!

The destructive power is just nuts, maybe not so much with the Dora, but with the Antons it's almost not fair! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
I get my TrackIR 5 tomorrow http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Maybe that will make a difference.
As far as destructive power, thats how I feel about the TA's or the D11/13. Especially with the Askania gunsight, totally unfair to the Ami's.


Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
......

Its snowing here, I may do all the reinstalling today in fact and get back into the skies. I must admit, the mods and each side having their 'favoured flight model' scares me off (The Fw190 crowd think it doesnt turn correctly, P51 is undermodelled and 'we' did a better job, just for example) sort of puts me off. Should I be worried about this?

(Sorry if I am derailing the thread, if it gets long winded I will shut up!)

If its a worry just dont download anything that alters the flight models of the air craft. Stuff like maps that look photo-realistic and different/more detailed effects make the game sooooooooo much nicer.
Ive actually thought of modding the flight model of the anton to make it more flyable, but if I cant do it with the plane as is Im not even going to bother with it.

M_Gunz
12-04-2010, 08:22 AM
Then how are you snap-stalling 190's?

thefruitbat
12-04-2010, 08:27 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:

Its snowing here, I may do all the reinstalling today in fact and get back into the skies. I must admit, the mods and each side having their 'favoured flight model' scares me off (The Fw190 crowd think it doesnt turn correctly, P51 is undermodelled and 'we' did a better job, just for example) sort of puts me off. Should I be worried about this?



no it shouldn't worry you.

its the same *******es that used to whine about red vs blue before mods that whine about red vs blue now.

Besides, new planes make up about 10% of the mod packs, and you don't have to use them anyway.

Come and join us for the ubizoo co-ops tonight http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

K_Freddie
12-05-2010, 09:54 AM
CWMV.. I don't see how you're having problems with only the short nose FW... All the a/c have a snap stall if you're heavy handed on the stick, second to the FW snap is the P51 snap, and it's just as vicious.

Now that you mention modding the FMs... maybe you're having difficulty finding where the snap thing is in the FM file. With SOW I hope that Oleg locks out any a/c modding, cause look what's happend to IL2 since modding has come about ?
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

RegRag1977
12-05-2010, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by C.W.M.V.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C.W.M.V.:
Same thing I do in the Dora's and TA's, but they seem alot easier to anticipate/read that the Antons.

Try not snapping the stick back and you'll do better. Every bit of pull on the stick, be watching how the nose responds and if it slows down you quit pulling back and maybe loosen up a little. A well made turn or pitch-up needs to be started smoothly with good attention. Just yanking the stick back to 'about where it should go' is poor piloting that anyone can do better. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Who said anything about yanking the stick back? I havent yanked on the stick since "janes IAF" way back in the day.
Flying other planes is easy, even the 190D9/11/13/15 or the TA's, but the anton snaps soooooo much faster than any of those, and has none of the climb/speed advantages.
Just tried it again in a Defense of the Reich mission. Got my butt whooped by a '47 razorback. Did the same mission over again in a 109, 6 kills-no losses. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif
Whatever, I give.


Originally posted by Xnomad:
I've got one thing to say about flying the FW 190 and that's '6DOF'.

The plane is amazing once you can actually see something!

The destructive power is just nuts, maybe not so much with the Dora, but with the Antons it's almost not fair! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
I get my TrackIR 5 tomorrow http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Maybe that will make a difference.
As far as destructive power, thats how I feel about the TA's or the D11/13. Especially with the Askania gunsight, totally unfair to the Ami's.


Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
......

Its snowing here, I may do all the reinstalling today in fact and get back into the skies. I must admit, the mods and each side having their 'favoured flight model' scares me off (The Fw190 crowd think it doesnt turn correctly, P51 is undermodelled and 'we' did a better job, just for example) sort of puts me off. Should I be worried about this?

(Sorry if I am derailing the thread, if it gets long winded I will shut up!)

If its a worry just dont download anything that alters the flight models of the air craft. Stuff like maps that look photo-realistic and different/more detailed effects make the game sooooooooo much nicer.
Ive actually thought of modding the flight model of the anton to make it more flyable, but if I cant do it with the plane as is Im not even going to bother with it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi C.W.M.V.,

sometimes it is not the flight model, it is "just" the joystick's input curves that you'll need to change: a curve working for the 109 won't work for the P51 for instance. Especially in the trim elevator/elevator/rudder sectors.
Sometimes you'll need a higher sensitivity, sometimes far less: in my experience, depending on different axis curves an aircraft in this sim can handle drastically differently, be sluggish or stall/snap roll too easily.
In my opinion taking the time to work on all axis curves with IL2 Joycontrol is vital to improve one's ability to fly an aircraft to its limits. It is vital to set the curves so that they become smooth and precise inside the fighting envelope of your chosen fighter.

IL2Joycontrol will help you to do that.

C.W.M.V.
12-18-2010, 10:33 PM
Originally posted by RegRag1977:
Hi C.W.M.V.,

sometimes it is not the flight model, it is "just" the joystick's input curves that you'll need to change: a curve working for the 109 won't work for the P51 for instance. Especially in the trim elevator/elevator/rudder sectors.
Sometimes you'll need a higher sensitivity, sometimes far less: in my experience, depending on different axis curves an aircraft in this sim can handle drastically differently, be sluggish or stall/snap roll too easily.
In my opinion taking the time to work on all axis curves with IL2 Joycontrol is vital to improve one's ability to fly an aircraft to its limits. It is vital to set the curves so that they become smooth and precise inside the fighting envelope of your chosen fighter.

IL2Joycontrol will help you to do that.

Holy Crap I had no idea. Its funny you mention 109's and P-51's. I just started an MTO Dgen campaign with P-51's and I almost threw my stick out the window! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
Ill check it out thanks for the heads up!

Wildnoob
12-19-2010, 07:31 PM
I was just shoot down by a teammate in a server, who after told me: "you have to help, this is not FS!".

I already know this type, but they <STRIKE>frustrate me</STRIKE> amazed me every time they came up with this kind of thing. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

VW-IceFire
12-19-2010, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
I agree that once you master energy fighting and the heavier fighter 'style', the Fw190 is just a dream vs the slower 'turners'.


I must admit I dont fly at the moment, but the last time I did, my favourite planes were :

Bf109F4/G2
Fw190A4/A5/A6
P47D
FW190D9
Tempest
And the Spitfire is always a great all-rounder for the Allies to have at their disposal. Jack of all trades kind of thing.

I also used to love a bit of T34 tankbusting with the Me110G2 and 37BK cannon. (You must hit the top to destroy them)

I MUST get back into flying, I keep threatening to join Blairgowries UBIZOO Coops but never seem to have the time.

Are the UKdedicated servers still running?

Its snowing here, I may do all the reinstalling today in fact and get back into the skies. I must admit, the mods and each side having their 'favoured flight model' scares me off (The Fw190 crowd think it doesnt turn correctly, P51 is undermodelled and 'we' did a better job, just for example) sort of puts me off. Should I be worried about this?

(Sorry if I am derailing the thread, if it gets long winded I will shut up!)
UK-Dedicated is still there m8! I still fly there on weekends... just UK-1 really. UK-2 is almost never populated and UK-3 is more hardcore. I've been building new maps so there are a whole bunch of new ones in rotation.

Come join!

Also I still fly 4.09m stock. I see no reason to mess about with mods. So the flight models remain as Oleg intended be that a good thing or a bad thing it is what it is. I trust him more than the folks with axes to grind on mods.

C.W.M.V.
12-19-2010, 08:36 PM
Ha!
Most of the added planes use stock FM's, but even ignoring that some of the effects mods are amazing, but heck to each their own.