PDA

View Full Version : I just had a great idea for BOB



Destroyer110
08-11-2005, 06:53 PM
Have as the main aspect of the game the Invasion of England. Along the coast of france have german landing craft etc ready to move as soon as the sea-ways are cleared and the skies empty. IF the germans can land their forces on English soil, the german player wins then game. If not then the England player wins.

If the player opts to play the germans then his first priority will be to clear the channel of english ships. that will probably mean JU-87's and 88's escorted by 109s. Next step will probably be domination of the landing areas. If this can be done then the game automatically sets sail the invasion fleet.

If the player opts to be English then defending the channel, coast, radar and airfields will probably be their main objective. They may even try to send over a squadron of Hampdens to attack the barges, or a lysander packed with goodies for the french resistance, to attack installations.

sounds far more interesting than just a group of unrelated scenarios.

LEXX_Luthor
08-11-2005, 07:01 PM
We "forgot" the Royal Navy in there.


If the player opts to play the germans then his first priority will be to clear the channel of english ships.
Royal Navy would be held in reserve well out of range of Bf-109s until the attempt at Channel crossing.

If the RAF found itself losing the early air superiority battle in the South of England, they would have retreated beyond the range of Bf-109s. When the Royal Navy comes out to intercept the Channel crossing, the Bf-109s would not be able to stop the suddenly re-appearing RAF fighters from stopping the Luftwaffe bombers from stopping the Royal Navy. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif And, the Luftwaffe had little anti-ship capability, unlike the Japanese Naval air forces, and would not even have the time to stop the Royal Navy from sinking the entire Channel crossing -- too many Royal Navy ships.

p1ngu666
08-11-2005, 07:44 PM
forgotten BOB, battle of the barges. bomber commands sometimes despirate attempts to sink the barges and other ships the germans would use on the invasion.

i think they where fairely successful, they even used lots of hand grenades as a loadout http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

IMO if there had been a inviasion it would have been a very bloody battle. churchill had given orders for gas tobe used on the invasion beaches http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

VW-IceFire
08-11-2005, 08:48 PM
Destroyer...Oleg I think is way ahead of you. I remember there being mention of two campaign types. One was historical...the other was a wide open what-if where if the RAF lost the battle...it would have a channel crossing and there would be German tanks running around south england.

As for what pingu was saying, yes as I have read, the invasion would be a heck of a thing to pull off for the Germans. The Royal Navy would have given the invasion barges a pasting and there were preparations for all sorts of things to be done on the beaches.

Poison gas, using gasoline and spreading it on the beaches and then lighting the whole thing on fire as the troops came ashore. Perhaps one of the largest battle never fought.

Destroyer110
08-11-2005, 11:21 PM
I think the royal navy would have quickly ended up at the bottom of the channel if they tried to stop any crossing.

Dive bombers, U-boats and huge shore-line guns, would have sunk any navy ships.

Tater-SW-
08-12-2005, 09:21 AM
The Germans would have to have "landing craft" in the first place instead of erzatz river craft turned into troop/materiel transports. German barges crossing the channel would have faced at least as much risk from normal seas as the RAF and RN.

They also had no concept at all about how to mount an amphibeous operation. The Norway invasion landed troops at piers like a passenger ship would. Later, at D-day, German defense planning was 180 degrees from reality in terms of what kinds of tides to expect the landings on. Germans expected a landing at HIGH tide, not at a low tide, rising. This shows how clueless they would have been in Sealion. Had they attempted to land at high tide, their craft would all have been beached right away as the tide fell, crowding the landing area, and not allowing new craft to come in, or the first waves to return for more.

tater

joeap
08-12-2005, 09:57 AM
Originally posted by Destroyer110:
I think the royal navy would have quickly ended up at the bottom of the channel if they tried to stop any crossing.

Dive bombers, U-boats and huge shore-line guns, would have sunk any navy ships.

I'm afraid you are wrong. There were not enough u-boats at this time and the English Channel was always somewhat of a death trap for the u-boats as it was so shallow. The dive bombers were not that good at this time at sinking ships and, what heavy guns are you talking about? None of the so called "Atlantic Wall" fortifications had been built yet.

Part of the crossing would have been at night and the Royal Navy would have used the dark to smash as many barges as they could. Last point the Germans were never very good at coordinating air, land and sea operation together. Air and land yes, but not with sea ops. The only WWII participants who were any good at amphibious landings for the most part were the Anglo-Americans and the Japanese.

Mysticpuma2003
08-12-2005, 10:16 AM
I'm hoping the Dunkirk evacuation will be in there with Germans Straffing the beach and ships and the RAF trying to defend them!

That would, I hope, be very cool.

csThor
08-12-2005, 11:13 AM
IMO it's too easy to dismiss the potential losses the RN might have to endure in such a scenario. At that point the submarine war was still favoring the germans - Happy Times - since the RN didn't possess a practical tactic and the necessary technical equipment to effectively counter the german submarines. ASDIC was one plus of the RN, but the shallow waters didn't exactly benefit the system (as shown during the Invasion in 1944, when US and RN destroyers often chased phantoms or fish swarms - the waters of the Channel were a nightmare for every sonar/ASDIC operator).

As such the night would not be as advantageous as some might think - there was no radar which could detect submarines which means the first indication of a submarine would probably be a torpedo hit.
Secondly the Kriegsmarine had very good light surface forces (S-Boats and Torpedo Boats) which were a real problem for the RN in the summer of 1940.
The third point was - of course - the strength of the Luftwaffe. What could happen to superior fleets without adequate air cover was shown in 1941 at Crete, when the RN was badly mauled by Luftflotte 4. In summer 1940 there were at least 6 or 7 Stuka groups with some 40 planes each, not counting the regular bomber units.
A fourth factor would be mines, which would have been used extensively to block the approach of the RN Home Fleet.

The numerical advantage of the RN is clear, but the environment (narrow and shallow waters, superior enemy air force with means of precision bombing, enemy submarines, mine fields etc) would have considerably raised the risks for the RN.

LEXX_Luthor
08-12-2005, 06:12 PM
csThor, those are great points I never thought of. Awsum and Thanks~

RN would have adequate air cover, since RAF would hold fighters in reserve, out of range of 109 escorts, until the day of the crossing, if the RAF had found itself losing the early air superiority contest.

The subs are scary though. Most interesting.

Then, we also have RAF bombers that could be used against the invasion barges too (well, kinda, you know). With the 109s tied up with the RAF fighters (coming out of hiding), this could work. Weather would be the crucial thing for both air forces' air to ship operations.

p1ngu666
08-12-2005, 09:38 PM
on the subs, there wherent THAT many operating at any one time, and they could only do 4 knots submerged.

the RN also have very high espirite de corpe's or whatever.

everything would be chucked at the invasion fleet.

the germans have a few good ships, but its probably the merchant and landing craft they dont have many of.

perhaps the best bet would be to concentrate on the shipping after the landing, to starve the germans of supplies, thats if the raf could effectly destroy the shipping.

spit and hurri probably couldnt sink the barges with the mg guns apart from luck or just concentrated attacks, but a open top barge full of men, and 8x303 @ 20 rounds a sec, 160 rounds a second... thats gonna be nasty.

assuming a squadron of 12 raf planes, and they attack 3 barges each, thats 36 barges uve rendered out of the battle, as they would haveto turn back because of 30% or more casulties..

Slater_51st
08-12-2005, 10:23 PM
Parts of the RN were busy doing convoy escort.

If the Germans had managed to get Scharnhorst and Gneisenau into the Atlantic in 1940 with a couple of pocket battleships, they could've caused havoc with shipping lanes. The Brits would've had just 3 ships capable of their speed(Reknown, Repulse and Hood), the KGV class of BB weren't ready yet(KGV commissioned in Dec 1940), plus, even if they were rushed into service, there were many problems(recall POW in fight with Bismark, all but 2 of her 14" guns jammed).

Unfortunately for the Germans, their 2 big 1940 ships weren't in the Atlantic in 1940. However, with the RN pressed closer to home, that could open up the possibility of greater U-boat success in the Atlantic, really tough to say what would've happened.

I personally would love to have a dive or level bomber campaign against Britains aged battleships. 11 of Britains 14 battleships and battlecruisers still afloat in 1940 were built before 1918!!! While this was true of most navies, these ships would certainly be more vulnerable to tattack then the more modern ships, which had been designed with air attack in mind. Some, but not all, had been given rather major refits, but still I'd guess they'd be Stuka-Fodder http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

S! Slater

GH_Klingstroem
08-13-2005, 06:55 AM
I thought ASDIC didnt exist in 1940 anyway....

joeap
08-13-2005, 08:49 AM
Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:
I thought ASDIC didnt exist in 1940 anyway....

It did as it was invented before the war, point is again the RN and RAF had nothing to lose. The Germans would not have been able to pull off a sucessful landing with the amateur amphibious forces they had even if they hurt the RN hard. As for effectiveness of the LW at ship killing at this time the stas I've seen don't bear this out. They got better later yes that's ttue. The u-boats would have had problesm in the Channel even on the surface as many parts of it were mined (where they would enter).

My final point is Garmany did not have to invade the UK to win anyway. I am certain if Churchill was not PM at that time things might have gone differently.

hop2002
08-13-2005, 11:59 AM
If the Germans had managed to get Scharnhorst and Gneisenau into the Atlantic in 1940 with a couple of pocket battleships, they could've caused havoc with shipping lanes.

Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were both in port having torpedo damage repaired in the second half of 1940. They tried a breakout in December 1940, but had to turn back due to bad weather. They scceeded in breaking out in early 1941.

Of the pocket battleships, Graf Spee had already been sunk, Lutzow was in port receiving repairs for torpedo damage, Admiral Scheer did get to sea, sinking 100,000 tons of allied shipping.


The Brits would've had just 3 ships capable of their speed(Reknown, Repulse and Hood),

Scharnhorst and Gneisenau did meet Renown once, they ran, Renown landing a few hits.

Of course, the British actually had a lot of ships capable of matching the speed of Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, almost all the cruisers and destroyers, for example.

And the speed doesn't matter so much for convoy escort. If Scharnhorst and Gneisenau want to attack a convoy, they have to deal with the convoy escort, and if that's a real battleship, they are in trouble.


I personally would love to have a dive or level bomber campaign against Britains aged battleships. 11 of Britains 14 battleships and battlecruisers still afloat in 1940 were built before 1918!!! While this was true of most navies, these ships would certainly be more vulnerable to tattack then the more modern ships, which had been designed with air attack in mind. Some, but not all, had been given rather major refits, but still I'd guess they'd be Stuka-Fodder

Not in 1940. The Luftwaffe were severly lacking in anti shipping work in 1940, they didn't have an air launched torpedo in service, and not many large armour piercing bombs.

If you look at Crete, in 1941, the RN operated several battlegoups, they sank the German amphibious landing force before it got near Crete, and remained in the area for several days. Losses were 3 cruisers and 6 destroyers, out of a total force of 4 battleships, 1 carrier, 11 cruisers and 32 detroyers.

And that was in daytime. The capabilites of the Germans in night time in 1940 can be gauged from the fact that the RN used cruisers and destroyers freely in the Channel by night, even going so far as sending destroyers into the outer harbour at Calais to look for invasion barges.


ASDIC began entering service in 1922, iirc.

Slater_51st
08-13-2005, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by hop2002:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If the Germans had managed to get Scharnhorst and Gneisenau into the Atlantic in 1940 with a couple of pocket battleships, they could've caused havoc with shipping lanes.

Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were both in port having torpedo damage repaired in the second half of 1940. They tried a breakout in December 1940, but had to turn back due to bad weather. They scceeded in breaking out in early 1941.

Of the pocket battleships, Graf Spee had already been sunk, Lutzow was in port receiving repairs for torpedo damage, Admiral Scheer did get to sea, sinking 100,000 tons of allied shipping.


The Brits would've had just 3 ships capable of their speed(Reknown, Repulse and Hood),

Scharnhorst and Gneisenau did meet Renown once, they ran, Renown landing a few hits.

Of course, the British actually had a lot of ships capable of matching the speed of Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, almost all the cruisers and destroyers, for example.

And the speed doesn't matter so much for convoy escort. If Scharnhorst and Gneisenau want to attack a convoy, they have to deal with the convoy escort, and if that's a real battleship, they are in trouble.


I personally would love to have a dive or level bomber campaign against Britains aged battleships. 11 of Britains 14 battleships and battlecruisers still afloat in 1940 were built before 1918!!! While this was true of most navies, these ships would certainly be more vulnerable to tattack then the more modern ships, which had been designed with air attack in mind. Some, but not all, had been given rather major refits, but still I'd guess they'd be Stuka-Fodder

Not in 1940. The Luftwaffe were severly lacking in anti shipping work in 1940, they didn't have an air launched torpedo in service, and not many large armour piercing bombs.

If you look at Crete, in 1941, the RN operated several battlegoups, they sank the German amphibious landing force before it got near Crete, and remained in the area for several days. Losses were 3 cruisers and 6 destroyers, out of a total force of 4 battleships, 1 carrier, 11 cruisers and 32 detroyers.

And that was in daytime. The capabilites of the Germans in night time in 1940 can be gauged from the fact that the RN used cruisers and destroyers freely in the Channel by night, even going so far as sending destroyers into the outer harbour at Calais to look for invasion barges.


ASDIC began entering service in 1922, iirc. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cool, thanks for straightening me out. Shoulda done my homework better http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

S! Slate

Destroyer110
08-13-2005, 05:34 PM
All this discussion on navies has opened up another aspect that could be added to the game ... England's life line.

There could be a AI merchant navy suppling England that the German player needs to destroy .. although that would probably take it out of the bounds of "Invasion England" and away from a flight sim to a sub sim.

Another advantage the Germans had was elite paras that would have spearheaded any invasion.