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AtEaseGentlemen
03-17-2005, 11:00 PM
Hey Guys,

Just a quick question - has there been any further news on Dutch campaigns for PF ?

I've seen that there is a Dutch voice and medals pack out there, but we still seem to be missing the maps.

I'm guessing the chances are not good that we will see the old Dutch East Indies...

Anyone have any news ? I've been away from the forums a while and the search function is cooperating.

Cheers

R

AtEaseGentlemen
03-17-2005, 11:00 PM
Hey Guys,

Just a quick question - has there been any further news on Dutch campaigns for PF ?

I've seen that there is a Dutch voice and medals pack out there, but we still seem to be missing the maps.

I'm guessing the chances are not good that we will see the old Dutch East Indies...

Anyone have any news ? I've been away from the forums a while and the search function is cooperating.

Cheers

R

masaker2005
03-18-2005, 02:37 AM
I don't know any http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif abaout Dutch campaign's.

pacettid
03-18-2005, 06:47 AM
This is one thing I would definitely like to see.

I don't hold much hope on getting the correct maps, but would like to know which maps we have now could be adapted as reasonable facsimiles?

AtEaseGentlemen
03-21-2005, 08:26 PM
-Bump-

C'mon guys...any ideas or news ? Ik weet dat er Nederlanders bij zitten...

(I know that there are Dutchmen around...)

Billy_BigBoy
03-22-2005, 04:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AtEaseGentlemen:
-Bump-

C'mon guys...any ideas or news ? Ik weet dat er Nederlanders bij zitten...

(I know that there are Dutchmen around...) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Klopt...
But maybe we have to wait until the CW21 and DXXI are available.

Billy_BigBoy
03-23-2005, 12:22 PM
Bump

Check this thread:
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=26310365&m=7791081792

AtEaseGentlemen
03-23-2005, 06:28 PM
Excellent news.

Thanks for the heads up.

Ruy Horta
03-24-2005, 09:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Billy_BigBoy:
Klopt...
But maybe we have to wait until the CW21 and DXXI are available. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The D.21 won't add anything over the East Indies, since the type was restricted to home use (defence of the Netherlands proper).

Types:

Brewster Mod.339D
Unfortunately neither F2A nor Mod.239 are good substitutes, the F2A has the looks, but the Mod.239 is closer in handling).

Hawk 75A
Well we have plenty of AI options here, the downside is that after all that time no one figured that this a/c deserves to be a flyable - considering the fact that it was flown on many fronts by many nations. IMHO dumb, but who am I, right...

CW.21
Looks like somewhere down the road they are promising to release the Interceptor. Saw some combat over Java, basically a nice challenging bird, but less important than the two types mentioned earlier. The upside of the matter, the ML Interceptors actually managed to shoot down some Zeroes (real ones) with these crates!!

But lets face it, the only map with some historical significance will be Singapore, which saw Dutch Brewster action. Of course we can always substitute some other map.

The Dutch Martin Bombers saw extensive action, it is a shame that these won't ever see the light of (virtual) day.

Platypus_1.JaVA
03-24-2005, 10:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ruy Horta:


The D.21 won't add anything over the East Indies, since the type was restricted to home use (defence of the Netherlands proper).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

True, but, to add a nice fact, the D.XXI was originally meant for the Dutch East Indies. One prototype was tested but, rejected. So, the Dutch military aviation department in Holland got it instead. Fokker wanted also to sell the T.V (bomber) to the (Dutch) east indies but, due to availability problems (there wasn't even a flying prototype!) the ML-KNIL got the Martin bombers instead. Fokker persuaded the ML-KNIL to buy one or two more types of aircraft (T.IX bomber for instance) but, due to the war with Germany, there was no oppertunity to buy these aircraft.

Anyways, about the original subject of this thread, I am busy to make a static campaign of about 30 missions, starring the 18th (NEI) squadron with their Mitchell's. I've got a book wich covers most of their missions. Like time of the mission, targets, number of aircraft involved e.d. I've choosen a few intresting missions that could be flown with PF (merged)

But, it is in a premature stage right now. It is coming but, I don't know when. Just like Oleg's patches http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif In the mean time, you can download some Dutch B-25 skins from www.skinnersheaven.com (http://www.skinnersheaven.com) AS well as some other nice and intresting skins from other aircraft (P-40, P51, F4U)

GerritJ9
03-24-2005, 02:12 PM
Until we get a Glenn Martin in PF, perhaps it may be possible to use a different aeroplane as a substitute. What about the the DB-3M, it has two radial engines, defensive armament is the same (three .30 cal MGs), it has a front turret and looks generally similar to the early types (139) Glenn Martins used by the KNIL. It is far from perfect, but better than nothing.

GerritJ9
03-24-2005, 02:31 PM
Apart from top speed I have found no differences in the behaviour of the B-239 and F2A-2. The F2A-2 is closer in performance to the B-339D than the B-239 so I use that. The only bad thing about the F2A-2 is that hideous gunsight http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif. In appearance, the only difference between the F2A-2 and B-339D is the liferaft container behind the pilot, plus the head armour fitted to the B-339D which bears a close resemblance to the B-239's head armour. Ideally, the B-239 should be given the F2A-2's speed to make a B-339D. THe B-339D initially did not have a reflector gunsight, but these were fitted from late December 1941 as shipments arrived in Java. However, I doubt whether all Dutch B-339s were actually fitted with reflector gunsights. I suspect the type fitted was similar to the RAF's sight as fitted to the Hurricane IIB for instance.
Even though the F2A-2 received a speed increase in a patch, it is still undermodelled in this respect. In reality the F2A-2 was faster than both F4F-3 and A6M2, but is slower than both in PF, it should be approximately as fast as Hurricane IIB and Ki 61. Top speed for F2A-2 was 344 mph, for Hurricane IIB 342 mph and for Ki 61 346 mph.

Dimensionaut_
03-25-2005, 12:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ruy Horta:

The D.21 won't add anything over the East Indies, since the type was restricted to home use (defence of the Netherlands proper).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wrong, we could place one on an airfield acting as the prototype that got lost in a Japanese bombraid http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

OK, serious. If you want to be historically correct, we lack many things for a Dutch campaign. Maps, aircraft etc. When we have the CW-21 we do not have the area where it flew.
When we have the Singapore map, we don't have the type of Brewsters flown by the Dutch.

Anyway, a few people are busy working some things out.
Using the best possible Brewster, someone will make the Singapore campaign.
There are also some plans to make P-40 campaign (we should have the N version again) and B-25 campaign. But everything has to be done with lookalikes, both maps and aircraft.

Anyway, for those who cannot wait for some Dutch thingies (like Dutch voices and pilotskins) in PF, they can head over to Skinners Heaven

Platypus_1.JaVA
03-25-2005, 12:48 AM
It would be nice to have a (semi) Historical ML-KNIL Brewster campaign. Any talented mission maker with enough motivation can do that. You would need some good skins for all the aircraft involved (Martin bomber!) Need help? I'm sure we at www.1java.nl (http://www.1java.nl) can help.

GerritJ9
03-25-2005, 06:00 AM
The Singapore map would be quite useful for Glenn Martin missions as they were quite active over Malaya. The Brewsters of 2-VlG-V only saw combat a few times over Singapore in January 1942 before being transferred to Borneo to stem the Japanese invasion of Balikpapan.

Platypus_1.JaVA
03-25-2005, 07:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Serval_1JaVA:

Anyway, a few people are busy working some things out.
Using the best possible Brewster, someone will make the Singapore campaign.
There are also some plans to make P-40 campaign (we should have the N version again) and B-25 campaign. But everything has to be done with lookalikes, both maps and aircraft.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Most of the diffrences between the P-40M and N are internal. The P-40N was essentially a lightened P-40M. You can tell the two versions apart by their cockpit. If you look at the pictures here: http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?aircraft_genericsearch=Curtiss%20P-40&distinct_entry=true
Then you can look for the diffrences yourself. Furthermore, The factory armed the P-40N's with only 4 .50 machine guns instead of six. But, it was easy to fit in the 2 'missing' machineguns if you wanted to.

The biggest drawback of substituting the P-40N with an M is that the N had better performance due to the diffrence in weight between the aircraft. Anyways, The Dutch used their P-40's until mid 1949(!) and was the last country to put this type out of use.

darkhorizon11
03-25-2005, 12:19 PM
Which isles in the SE were held by the Dutch prior to the Japanese invasion?

Ruy Horta
03-25-2005, 01:25 PM
Indonesia...

Aero_Shodanjo
03-25-2005, 02:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ruy Horta:
Indonesia... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're kidding, right? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

Anyway, thanks for the info about Dutch campaign in here. I never knew what planes the KNIL used before I learned more from this board. As a kid, I watched some movies about our fight for independence (45-49 era) that showed only Mustangs that the Dutch used to counter the freedom fighters (shall i say extremists? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ) as if it was the only types that the Dutch had http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Looking forward for the ML-KNIL campaign for PF http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Platypus_1.JaVA
03-26-2005, 12:14 AM
Did you see some video footage of NEIAF aircraft? I would be happy to see that. It is probably not online somewhere but, If you can point us to a website or something, we would be very happy. The NEIAF is just a very important part of our history like the occupation of the 'homeland' by the Germans. however, the Dutch did not so nice things in the NEI area.

Still I would love to see some video action of NEI aircraft.

GerritJ9
03-26-2005, 01:29 AM
Er....... the KNIL used more than just Mustangs post-war. Apart from various B-25 models, they used Piper Cubs, Commonwealth Wackett and Harvard trainers, Dakotas, P-40Ns....... 322 squadron was sent over from Holland, flying Spitfire Mk.9s, together with a squadron flying Austers. Plus initially some ex-Japanese aeroplanes including a few A6Ms. Unfortunately no photos seem to exist of the A6Ms in KNIL colours http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

GerritJ9
03-26-2005, 01:32 AM
THE KNIL aeroplanes were handed over to the AURI in 1950, but the Indonesians were not interested in the P-40Ns and they were all scrapped- nobody had the bright idea to save one or two for museums in Holland http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

Platypus_1.JaVA
03-26-2005, 02:18 AM
The P-40's where not handed over to the AURIS. They where simply put out of service. Somewhere in June/July 1949. They where really flown to the very very end of their service life. The NEIAF was the last user to put the P-40 out of action. If you see some of the pics of the P-40's in 1949, you can really see they where old and used up.

Platypus_1.JaVA
03-26-2005, 02:32 AM
p.s. if you download Il-2 MAT manager from http://www.acesartwork.co.uk/ you can substitute the Orange triangle to a more historical Dutch flag...

They did this IRL because from a distance, the orange triangle resembled the Japanese red ball.

GerritJ9
03-26-2005, 03:14 AM
I forgot the post-war MLD aeroplanes flying in the NEI- Catalinas, various marks of Firefly...... all in all, quite an impressive "collection"!
Hugo Hooftman wrote this about the fate of the P-40Ns (see Van Glenn Martins en Mustangs, page 160):
"Next to the P-51 Mustang, the P-40 Kittyhawks were the most powerful fighters of the post-war ML and these machines achieved a great deal in the ML, even though they were far from new aircraft and were eventually completely worn out. This is the reason that the AURI did not want them at the transfer.... While tha AURI DID take over the Mustangs, the P-40s were all, as far as known, scrapped."

In fairness, they were the ONLY fighters next to the Mustangs in the post-war ML so H.H. saying they were the most powerful fighters next to the Mustangs is a bit over the top- it gives the uninformed the impression that other, more inferior, types were also in use.

Dimensionaut_
03-26-2005, 03:37 AM
Well, with skinning, Dutch skins now have my priority (some P-40's online and also some P-51's and a bunch of B-25's by Platypus) and a Dutch Hurricane, some more Dutch P-40's, Brewsters and Spitfires (also one in NEI colors) are following. Just check my site every now and then.

Aero_Shodanjo
03-26-2005, 09:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Platypus_1.JaVA:
Did you see some video footage of NEIAF aircraft? I would be happy to see that. It is probably not online somewhere but, If you can point us to a website or something, we would be very happy. The NEIAF is just a very important part of our history like the occupation of the 'homeland' by the Germans. however, the Dutch did not so nice things in the NEI area.

Still I would love to see some video action of NEI aircraft. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

After doing some searching, Ive found only one websource that has footage about ML-KNIL:Semarang Photo Archive (http://www.semarang.nl/index.html). In "Films" section there's a footage about ML-KNIL paratrooper in 1947.

About the movies that I saw, they were aired long ago. If my memory still correct they were a part of IPPHOS collection (Indonesian Press Photo Service - before being absorbed into ANTARA news agency nowadays). Ive heard that many of its archives are damaged now because lack of maintenance and proper storage http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Anyway, I was just talking to my father. He was an officer in Indonesian Air Force (TNI AU). I asked him about the possibility to "dig up" the TNI AU history archives especially after the declaration of independence in 45 to 49 and if possible, also before and after that (say, started from the beginning of ML-KNIL until the end of Dutch involvement in this region circa 1963). He agreed to help although that will be a big undertaking.

That brings another idea forward, well maybe this is a crazy idea, but Im thinking about making a joint project... Anyone interested?

GerritJ9
03-26-2005, 09:32 AM
Aero..... it may be a good idea to look at the website www.rememberthemlknil.tk (http://www.rememberthemlknil.tk). It is under construction, its webmaster is Kevin Stoove, whose grandfather, Ed Stoove, was one of the pilots of 2-VlG-V and flew over Singapore, Borneo and Java. As you can see, Kevin is trying to get all kinds of info for his site. Perhaps you two can help each other out.
Ed Stoove , incidentally, is still with us. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Platypus_1.JaVA
03-26-2005, 09:46 AM
Hey, You must be the guy from the speechpack!

I didn't realize that until now http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

(Dutch speechpack, available for download at www.skinnersheaven.com (http://www.skinnersheaven.com) on the main page)

Aero_Shodanjo
03-26-2005, 10:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GerritJ9:
Aero..... it may be a good idea to look at the website http://www.rememberthemlknil.tk. It is under construction, its webmaster is Kevin Stoove, whose grandfather, Ed Stoove, was one of the pilots of 2-VlG-V and flew over Singapore, Borneo and Java. As you can see, Kevin is trying to get all kinds of info for his site. Perhaps you two can help each other out.
Ed Stoove , incidentally, is still with us. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gerrit, that sounds great http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif Do you know how can I contact him?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Platypus_1.JaVA:
Hey, You must be the guy from the speechpack!

I didn't realize that until now http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lol I bet I sounded so awful. I cant stand not to laugh hearing my own voice http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Oh well, since Serval asked me to include a native accent, what you heard was a mix of half Javanese, half Sumatra and a whole mixed up between the two in Dutch language http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Btw, the Mustangs that the KNIL used to supress the resistance were very famous and fearsome for our guerillas. We nicknamed them "cocor merah" (red snoot) cos their nose were painted red. But after looking through the KNIL Mustang skins in IL2Skins and Skinner's Heaven, I saw none of them has a red nose/spinner. Anyone know about this?

Dimensionaut_
03-26-2005, 10:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Platypus_1.JaVA:
Hey, You must be the guy from the speechpack!

I didn't realize that until now http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

(Dutch speechpack, available for download at http://www.skinnersheaven.com on the main page) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Shows how well you've read the read me file http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

GerritJ9
03-26-2005, 11:56 AM
Aero, I will send Kevin an E-mail to find out whether he is interested, his main interest in ML activities lies in the 1941-42 period. He has applied for access to the Dutch Air Force archives but of course much material concerning the period before March 1942 has been lost during the Japanese occupation. Still, some of it might be in the AURI archives- the funniest stuff turns up in the most unexpected places. Plus, I think many Indonesians who served in the ML until March 1942 may have eventually joined the AURI so there may even be records of interviews with them about their experiences in the ML (my fantasy at work here, mind you......).
If Kevin agrees, I will send you his E-mail address by private message and you two can contact each other directly.

Dimensionaut_
03-26-2005, 12:50 PM
Well the P-40 lives on virtually.

Here another one (at least 3 will follow)
http://www.skinnersheaven.com/images/skins/preview/51.jpg

flyplenty
03-26-2005, 01:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aero_Shodanjo:
http://www.semarang.nl/index.html. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thanks for the link! My mom is from there, she'll like the site I think. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif