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View Full Version : i invented independently 6dof but nobody uses it right for what i know



raaaid
07-21-2006, 05:43 AM
i was talking of 6dof one year prior to nobody knowing about it

this is how i intended it to work for bob:

you are sit 80 cm away from the screen back in the cockpit and you see the moon real size what gives you inmersion because you recognize the size of the moon as real

now you put your crosshair on the moon so you move to the front of the cockpit closing your head 20 cm from the screen to put your eyes near the gunsight

big problem now the moon aint real size any more becuase you are two times closer to the screen than before sou you see the moon 2 times bigger than before breaking the real size sensation

solution: if you half your distance to the screen you double the angle of view, advantages:

inmersion, you see everything always at real size,

realism, it seems you are looking through a window not a screen

game advantages: you just have to close to the screen to increase angle of view

the gunsight would work realistically, it will always have the apparent same size just as real

Capt.LoneRanger
07-21-2006, 08:39 AM
Disadvantage: If you move closer to the screen to move your point of view closer to the instrument panel, the increased field will nullify with motion.

So, for your idea, strap to the seat and don't move at all. The rest of us is fine with a larger moon, I think, at least if they are able to look at the instruments, then.

russ.nl
07-21-2006, 08:59 AM
The moon will not change in size. It is so far away, and so big. That 60cm of movement will not result in a change of size. Even if it is on a screen. The intrument panel will. You are thinking way off. If you are in a cockpit and move your head towards the instrument panel you will see the guages better/larger but if you tillt you head towards the moon it will not change size. If the moon or sun or stars are getting biger or smaller by instand movements you would be going at 10 lightyears a sec. towards them/away from them. (+- 1 or 2 lightyears http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif)

WWSensei
07-21-2006, 09:16 AM
Originally posted by raaaid:
i was talking of 6dof one year prior to nobody knowing about it

this is how i intended it to work for bob:

you are sit 80 cm away from the screen back in the cockpit and you see the moon real size what gives you inmersion because you recognize the size of the moon as real

now you put your crosshair on the moon so you move to the front of the cockpit closing your head 20 cm from the screen to put your eyes near the gunsight

big problem now the moon aint real size any more becuase you are two times closer to the screen than before sou you see the moon 2 times bigger than before breaking the real size sensation

solution: if you half your distance to the screen you double the angle of view, advantages:

inmersion, you see everything always at real size,

realism, it seems you are looking through a window not a screen

game advantages: you just have to close to the screen to increase angle of view

the gunsight would work realistically, it will always have the apparent same size just as real

Unless you came up with the gaming idea about 10 years ago I doubt you though of it first. Also, FS2004 has had 6DOF for at least three years and the moon doesn't double in size when you lean forward in the pit. I suggest you actually research some 6DOF implementations in software packages before you claim 1) you did it first, 2) that they do it wrong.

In fact, I don't know of a single example of sim that does 6DOF that works they way you claim they work--in fact, just the opposite.

raaaid
07-21-2006, 10:03 AM
by invented independently i meant i had the idea before i heard about it

to watch the clocks you just have to lean back, your angle of view will be smaller but youll see clocks real size

without 6dof you had your head fixed but with it distance to monitor varies

when you close your head to the monitor objects appear to grow, this is a law of perspective

by closing to the screen half distance your brain will think you are seeing the moon double size so you either have halfed distance to a picture or to the real moon at an amzing speed, your brain will think the first

but if you correct size as greeks did with their columns youll brain will think you are looking at the moon through a window, much better and inmersive

in other words via 6dof at 20 cm from screen it sets a view of 90º at 60 cm 30º of angle of view

the apparent size of things will be as realistically as posible and always the same independetly of distance to screen

this will bring paradoxes when closing up too much but can be easily avoided by setting a limit

its just a matter of time that somebody realizes of the inmersion this would add because the idea is great, i just wish maddox to be the first to do it

WWSensei
07-21-2006, 11:20 AM
Again, the problem is that you are misunderstanding perspective and viewing angle. You are saying that sims implementing 6DOF work one way and they should change. I'm telling you they don't work the way you are assumming they do and they don't need to correct it. With proper perspective rendering objects don't linearly grow in size because the viewing distance to the monitor changes only. Properly modelled games render the images in a 3D space such that a relatively small change isn't noticed on distance objects. You are completly wrong on your assumption about how some sims have modelled 6DOF. Microsoft FS2004 does this and does it properly. In that sim when you move 20cm closer to the screen the moon does NOT grow in size because moving 20cm closer to an object 200,000+ miles away isn't going to change it's perspective.

In your example you halfed the distance to the instrument panels and they appear larger because the panel is modelled to not be that far from your "virtual" head and the moon is. You may have halfed the distance to the panel but you haven't gotten 1 billionth closer to the moon so it won't change shape.

A visual. Pick an object in the distance say at least 200 meters away like a building. Now, hold your finger up in front of you with the building in the distance. Now, move your head close to your finger. Your finger appears to get larger but the building does not get any bigger because you only moved a couple of inches closer to it. If it does suddenly double in size then you need glasses.

Your idea isn't new, it's been done and Oleg has already said it's going to be in BoB. Oleg can't be first because others have already done it.

You need to do more research before you claim to have thought of something no one else has. All you've demonstrated is that you don't understand the concepts of perspective, 3D modelling and 6DOF properly.

Oh, and saying you meant you had the idea before YOU heard about it is not what you said. You specifically said "i was talking of 6dof one year prior to nobody knowing about it".

That statement say you thought of it first before anyone else. That is incorrect.

Irish_Rogues
07-21-2006, 11:28 AM
Never let reality get in the way of a good argument. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

raaaid
07-21-2006, 11:51 AM
i was talking of 6dof one year prior to ever hearing of it, i knew it would come out the same i know this will come out

i have the moon in my screen real size but to be looked at at what distance of the screen?

how to know it?

take an astrolabium that measures angles and measure the angle that the real moon has, i think it is 1º, the same than the sun, basic navigation

now measure the angle that the screen moon shapes setting the distance so the moon has 1º

thats the correct distance to look at the screen moon so it has a real size, any closer it will have a bigger angle any farther a smaller one

so to see the screen moon real size the distance at the screen is fixed

but with 6dof distance to screen varies so as explained moon wont be real size any more

the only real size moon is that one of 1º

but if i half distance from the screen the screen moon will have now 2º

obvious solution: double the angle of view so the moon keeps having an angle measure by an astrolabium of 1º

i dont understand why this was moved from olegs ready room i want him to know, if i wasnt this lazy i would be know telling the competence this

greengriffin
07-21-2006, 12:09 PM
Is this guy kidding or what?

xTHRUDx
07-21-2006, 12:38 PM
he escaped from the PF forums and is lurking around here now i guess http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Monty_Thrud
07-21-2006, 12:49 PM
i invented independently 6dof but nobody uses it right for what i know

Yes http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif

WWMaxGunz
07-21-2006, 01:49 PM
Al Gore independantly invented the internet and see the recognition he got?

Seriously though it's a cracked idea since the pixels only look bigger the closer you get.
If I look at a newspaper picture from 80cm and then move my eyes to 20cm the detail level
does not increase, the picture shows no more. The only real change is it looks worse.

Vorondil-1986
07-21-2006, 02:01 PM
I think I understand what you are trying to say Raaaid, but what about this: As you approach the computer monitor objects like dashboard, gauges and gunsight "grow" in size as if you were really nearing them (I think this is how 6DoF really works, but I don't know). However, the objects that are really far away, like the sun/moon or a bridge in the distance, are reduced in size to give you the feeling that nearing the monitor won't help you see them better, as if the monitor was a window...

I hope you all understand my mumbo-jumbo... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Scen
07-21-2006, 03:50 PM
Yes freakish I know but here is 6DOF in action in IL2


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFTRsBcSyk8

raaaid
07-21-2006, 04:17 PM
as can be seen in the video leaning your head forward means seeing the panel bigger, so that is modelled

but as you lean your head forward youll see the screen bigger and everything in it(as the moon) bigger as well breaking realism

an awesome solution for this is increase the angle of view as you lean your head forward

having the sensation of looking through a window

plz think about it before calling me stupid

Freelancer-1
07-21-2006, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by raaaid:
as can be seen in the video leaning your head forward means seeing the panel bigger, so that is modelled

but as you lean your head forward youll see the screen bigger and everything in it(as the moon) bigger as well breaking realism

an awesome solution for this is increase the angle of view as you lean your head forward

having the sensation of looking through a window

plz think about it before calling me stupid

While what your saying makes sense, raaaid, think about what's involved from a computational viewpoint. I think that for what little immersive feeling you'll gain, you are going to have a real framerate killer. Even with a modern processor, this is a huge amount of cypherin' for the poor old CPU to have to proccess, in real time no less.

No raaaid, I just don't think it's worth it for the subtle effect that no one is likely to even notice.

Cheers,

LEBillfish
07-21-2006, 10:54 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFTRsBcSyk8

LEXX_Luthor
07-21-2006, 11:51 PM
Using 6DOF you "lean" your pilot head forward and the cockpit guages get bigger but the moon does not. Only what is inside the cockpit is effected by pilot leaning forward.

...that's not flight simmer leaning forward in gaming chair.

Charos
07-22-2006, 03:53 AM
I have a Project assignment for you Raaid.

#1 Wait till there is a full moon where you reside.

#2 Go outside and do the following.

First: look at the moon while standing.

Second: Look at the moon while lying down.

You just changed your distance from the moon.


Question: Did yours eye's detect any change in the apparent size of the moon?


The cool thing about this Raaid is that if you get someone to watch the moon standing while you inturn lay down then you will be viewing the moon as it was in the past relative to the person standing.

The light from the moon takes longer to reach your eye's relative to the person beside you standing.

You just invented a time machine. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif

raaaid
07-22-2006, 05:07 AM
its my fault for not explaining correctly

have you wonder why the cross hair keeps an apparent size of a fighter at 100 m always

if you see the gunsight at 40 cm the crosshair will have a size measured with a rule of lets say 4 cm

but if you see the gunsight at 20 cm the crosshair will measure with a rule 2 cm

on this way it always keeps the size of a fighter at 100m

you half distance to gunsight, crosshair halfs size

you half distance to screen, size of everything halves by changing the angle of view

plz somebody tells me he gets my point im beggining to think im ****** explaining myself

advantages:

only real size view needed

youll see everything as big as really is always however distance to screen(that varies with 6dof)

a gunsight that works just as real ones

the feeling you look through a window not to a screen

angle of view changed at will, just like looking through a window

terribly simpleto do just interlock trigonometrically angle of view with the x axe detected by 6dof

i feel i must tell maddox and only maddox about this idea to be honest because of the way im treated on this forums but if theyre honest they should at least try this idea to listen their customers

again the idea is to make the image of the screen work the same way as a real gunsight does with the crosshair: always keeping the same apparent size however the distance from head to gunsight

DuxCorvan
07-22-2006, 05:43 AM
I invented sex. I was having a hard http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif before someone ever talked me about it.

Come on, raaaaid, desiring things to be invented does not mean the same than inventing them really. If so, we had teletransports since many years ago.

alphalvr
07-22-2006, 06:02 AM
Originally posted by Scen:
Yes freakish I know but here is 6DOF in action in IL2


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFTRsBcSyk8


eh im totally confused??? if 6dof works in il2 why is there no patch or whatever???? and i just saw it working just fine (or is it just that plane that it works with??

i want it now *stamps foot*

alphalvr
07-22-2006, 06:03 AM
Originally posted by alphalvr:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Scen:
Yes freakish I know but here is 6DOF in action in IL2


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFTRsBcSyk8


eh im totally confused??? if 6dof works in il2 why is there no patch or whatever???? and i just saw it working just fine in that video!!! (or is it just that plane that it works with??)

i want it now *stamps foot* </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

oops i think i pressed reply rather than edit!!

Charos
07-22-2006, 06:26 AM
Originally posted by raaaid:
its my fault for not explaining correctly

have you wonder why the cross hair keeps an apparent size of a fighter at 100 m always

if you see the gunsight at 40 cm the crosshair will have a size measured with a rule of lets say 4 cm

but if you see the gunsight at 20 cm the crosshair will measure with a rule 2 cm

on this way it always keeps the size of a fighter at 100m

you half distance to gunsight, crosshair halfs size

you half distance to screen, size of everything halves by changing the angle of view

plz somebody tells me he gets my point im beggining to think im ****** explaining myself

advantages:

only real size view needed

youll see everything as big as really is always however distance to screen(that varies with 6dof)

a gunsight that works just as real ones

the feeling you look through a window not to a screen

angle of view changed at will, just like looking through a window

terribly simpleto do just interlock trigonometrically angle of view with the x axe detected by 6dof

i feel i must tell maddox and only maddox about this idea to be honest because of the way im treated on this forums but if theyre honest they should at least try this idea to listen their customers

again the idea is to make the image of the screen work the same way as a real gunsight does with the crosshair: always keeping the same apparent size however the distance from head to gunsight

No your not ******ed, your like most people who think too much - you end up with more questions than answers.

Raaid yes I think I now see where your coming from with the Gunsight.

The very thing you mention was from memory a prime consideration when the optical sights were being designed to take over from the fixed iron sights.

I vaguely remember that the focal length is set near infinity so as the sight ring does not change with pilot eye distance.

This is done because the Sight is harmonised with the Guns for a certain fireing condition and then the sight is set for a particular target.

The last thing you want is the crossbars or other markers on the sight to provide a false idea of target distance.

The sight also focuses when the eye and sight are suitably aligned.

Scragbat
07-22-2006, 06:53 AM
These raiidian threads make very intersting reading http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Invented independently?

An invention starts with an original idea followed by turning that idea into a physical creation. If I were an inventor and had an idea I would research to see if that idea had already become a creation. I would be dissapointed if somebody had already had the same idea as me and turned it into an invention, but I wouldn't claim that I had invented it first independetly! I would be laughed at. Raaids 'idependent invention' is not an invention but an idea. An idea that somebody had already thought of and seen it through to creation.

You can only invent something if you get to the final creation before anybody else. If nobody else has created it, then you invented it. Raaids 'independent invention' is a rather strange but intersting notion...


6dof not used right for what raiid knows?

I see the point. Moving forward in a cockpit with 6dof should not increase the pixel size of the cockpit. You are closer to the screen so it will naturally fill more of your physical field of view anyway so doesn't need increasing. The moon however is thousands of miles away (unlike your cockpit) so it shouldn't appear bigger as you move closer to the screen. The moon may have not increased in pixels but with your face closer to the screen it is physically filling more of your optical field of view. As raaid sees it, the size of the moon on screen should actually decrease in pixels (less pixel area) to maintain the same physical field of view. We are talking physical optical field of view.

It makes sense, and I think should be implemented maybe as a conf.ini setting. As an optional setting though becuase for some it will be disorienting. This sort of 3D illusion on screen may be harder for the brain to understand than standard 3D on a 2 dimensional screen. If this effect were implemented with a stereoscopic display the brain would probably accept it more easily. I for one would probably have the setting disabled...

WWSensei
07-22-2006, 07:08 AM
Originally posted by raaaid:
as can be seen in the video leaning your head forward means seeing the panel bigger, so that is modelled

but as you lean your head forward youll see the screen bigger and everything in it(as the moon) bigger as well breaking realism

an awesome solution for this is increase the angle of view as you lean your head forward

having the sensation of looking through a window

plz think about it before calling me stupid

I didn't call you stupid. Ignorant of a particular item or ill-informed but not stupid. what I said is check out games that support 6DOF natively (and not a hack for a game not designed) and you will see they already do a lot of what you are asking. It is not new or innovative. It's called perception. In properly coded games the moon doesn't perceptably change size as you lean in.

I didn't misunderstand you. I understood you perfectly, you are just making some assumptions that don't bear out in real applications.

WB_Outlaw
07-22-2006, 08:31 AM
Maybe it's just me, but isn't the WHOLE POINT of "zooming" to make things APPEAR BIGGER to compensate for the lack of resolution on the monitor. If I'm looking for a ground target 1500 feet below me and I "zoom" in only to have the cockpit frame get 3 times bigger but nothing on the ground change size, well, I hope you get my point.

Realism doesn't always work well, even when you can simulate it.

--Outlaw.

WWMaxGunz
07-22-2006, 08:46 AM
The screen is 2D and filled with an image that represents the intersection of light from
3D objects and a 2D plane between those objects and the eye of the viewer. Where the
images are drawn on the screen is 'right' for someone at a set distance back.

Get your face right up close and you have distortion with objects away from the center of
the screen even if the view is deliberately set up for wide angle due to geometry of eyes
not being a point. IE, perspective projection has limits and they have been known for
hundreds of years already.

And THEN comes pixel width.

6DOF is supposed to allow you to move inside the 3D environment as in head side to side
as well as turning. How holding your face so close to the screen the edges are 170 degrees
apart for peripheral is supposed to allow side motion is beyond me so maybe I'd rather have
the real working 6DOF that is practical and not ruin my eyesight jamming my face right up
close to a color CRT.

diomedes33
07-22-2006, 07:15 PM
I think I get what raaid's trying to say or maybe I just rationalized his thoughts into something that made sense to me.

I think he's talking about the perception between the eye and the monitor, rather than the eye -> through the monitor -> to the game world.

Take the moon again as an example. For the sake of argument lets say the moon is 100 pixels in diameter. When your head is at its furthest point from the screen. The angle between the two edges of the moon form a 3 degree arc (your eye is the apex).

Now when you move your head in to look at an instrument, the moon remains at 100 pixels, but the arc is now 6 degrees, because your eye is closer to the screen. In real life this angle remains constant because of the reasons already stated above numerous times. So to pull off a "truish" 3D perspective, the game engine would have to actively shrink the size of the moon proportionally to the distance between your eye and monitor.

To my knowledge this has never been an issue for gamming, the 6DOF trackir's have only been around for a couple years. Before that your head more or less stayed at a fixed point relative to the monitor, plus there was no way to retrieve this information even if you wanted to. I think the FOV type zooms (i.e. Wide, Normal, Narrow views in Il-2) already do all the trig work, you'd just need to tie in the ranging info from the trackir to sync the real world view with the virtual one.


Edit -- Somehow I missed Scragbat's post which pretty much covered what I said. BTW Scragbat I love your movies, still have Sacrifice on my HD.
My 2 cents anyway.

Cdn.401GATOR
07-22-2006, 09:18 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Thanks diomedes, that's a good explanation of what raaaid is trying to say.

A monitor in front of you only occupies a small field of view (45 degrees or so ). It doesn't seem practical to change the size of the moon to compensate for moving one's head forward and back.

I don't think we will be moving our head back and forth to such an extent (remember TrackIR will amplify the movement) that it really makes a difference.

I imagine raaaid's problem would be more apparent if one were in a room akin to the holo deck on Star Trek. And if the "holographic image" were being projected onto the walls of the room. Then I suppose it would be necessary to change the size of the moon to compensate for a person being close to the walls.

diomedes33
07-22-2006, 11:34 PM
Thanks Gator,

I thought maybe it would be a big enough difference that it could be a subtle depth perception trick. You bring up a good point. Not only is the monitor small, but it also has very poor resolution. The monitor might not even be capable of displaying the difference to begin with.

I guess we'll just have to wait for the 3 billion pixel 6DOF Plasma VR Helmets, due out in 10 years or so.

... and we thought we were laughed at now http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

WWMaxGunz
07-23-2006, 03:09 AM
Maybe he wants the view displayed so that you keep your nose 10 cm (4 in.) from the screen
and the view appears wider if the sim is set up to include all that would be in that wider
view... everything would be real size to someone with eyes that close.

So then you get the pixels that don't scale and the flatness of the screen that warps from
center out, etc.

Raaaid is not good at working ideas through but very good at leaving factors out.

SeaFireLIV
07-23-2006, 05:10 AM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:


Raaaid is not good at working ideas through but very good at leaving factors out.

Raaaid comes out with rubbish, and accidentally sometimes tips on to what might be a reasonable idea.

What`s the point in saying `I invented this idea!` When you see the idea already done and in production? If you have a good idea that you reckon no one else has thought of then get out there, straight away, patent it, get cash from a bank for it or find someone who has cash and produce the damn thing before someone else thinks of it. Cos someone eventually will.

There`s no point sitting there like a lemon telling a bunch of gaming flight simmers, " it was my idea" if you don`t intend to do anything when you first thought of it.

Act upon it!

Scragbat
07-23-2006, 06:25 AM
Originally posted by diomedes33:
Edit -- Somehow I missed Scragbat's post which pretty much covered what I said. BTW Scragbat I love your movies, still have Sacrifice on my HD.
My 2 cents anyway.

Ahhh, but you put it better than I could http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Thanks for the movie comment (made my day). I'm making another movie right now. You never know, it could be called 'Sacrifice II'!!

Cheers
Scrag

diomedes33
07-24-2006, 06:37 PM
Awesome Scragbat, I'm looking forward to it and will keep an eye out for the release.