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XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 06:02 AM
1 - Roll rate allows online "pilots" to go into a crazed pinwheel, wherein you are lucky to score a few plinks here and there. The pilot should at least go red, grey or barf all over his canopy.


2 - Damage model is overdone. I don't ever recall scoring damaged control cables. The only hope of bringing a 190 down was to score a lucky PK. That seems to be gone now as well.


Try again.



"We will welcome them with bullets and shoes."

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 06:02 AM
1 - Roll rate allows online "pilots" to go into a crazed pinwheel, wherein you are lucky to score a few plinks here and there. The pilot should at least go red, grey or barf all over his canopy.


2 - Damage model is overdone. I don't ever recall scoring damaged control cables. The only hope of bringing a 190 down was to score a lucky PK. That seems to be gone now as well.


Try again.



"We will welcome them with bullets and shoes."

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 06:04 AM
GR142_Astro wrote:
- 1 - Roll rate allows online "pilots" to go into a
- crazed pinwheel, wherein you are lucky to score a
- few plinks here and there. The pilot should at least
- go red, grey or barf all over his canopy.
-
-
- 2 - Damage model is overdone. I don't ever recall
- scoring damaged control cables. The only hope of
- bringing a 190 down was to score a lucky PK. That
- seems to be gone now as well.
-
-
- Try again.
-

Yawn... doesn't these guys get tired of repeating themselves?

Ronnie

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-John Steinbeck, "The Grapes of Wrath"

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 06:07 AM
Cannon shots to the wings of 190s rip them off pretty easy. The 190 also doesnt take many shots to the engine. Aside from that they are and should be pretty tough. But if you can't kill one you obviously arent flying a P40 or P47 cause they can rip one to shreds faster than you know what hit ya.

"Ich bin ein Wuergerwhiner"

"The future battle on the ground will be preceded by battle in the air. This will determine which of the contestants has to suffer operational and tactical disadvantages and be forced throughout the battle into adoption compromise solutions." --Erwin Rommel

http://lbhskier37.freeservers.com/Mesig.jpg
--NJG26_Killa--

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 06:08 AM
heaven forbid the game would get more realistic

flying online as 25th_Inmate



http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/inmate.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 06:22 AM
I'm sorry, but you is wrong. My 20 years of aeronautical engineer training and authentic FW-190 documents (that I can't show you) tell me that the FW is not affected by silly things like "compression" or "control forces". There are no bugs in FB, only maybe very small, tiny tunes. Because of these small tunes, the next upgrade (not patch, there are no bugs) will be out in 2005. You see, the game is just a heap of spaghetti code, so it takes us months to change one value.

The flight modelling is perfect, just as it was perfect in IL-2 and after all its patches. In real WWII flight modelling would change, drastically, from month to month. Many pilots died from it, be sure.

You may notice some sound glitches if you have strange hardware like a "Sound Blaster". So we will fix all problems with entirely new engine. Completely different and work 100%, and have EAX support and will turn bread into toast (and butter it).

Until the next patch, (with small tunes, be sure), consider yourself all beta testers for this half year old game, and please send bug reports to my spam account. After the tunes, all the gauges will work, for real this time, be sure.

Somebody killed me.





<div align=center>http://www.members.shaw.ca/fennec/plane.jpg </div><font size=-9>



Message Edited on 08/12/0311:35PM by StG77_Fennec

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 07:11 AM
i think the fms are done pretty well now with the exception of the dora and mig3u, i will post tracks in here to show you what im talking about if you havent seen it online yet


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Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 07:14 AM
190 whining ?!

I would never believe it if I didn't see it /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif )

<center>http://easyweb.globalnet.hr/easyweb/users/ntomlino/uploads/sig.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 07:15 AM
StG77_Fennec wrote:
- I'm sorry, but you is wrong. My 20 years of
- aeronautical engineer training and authentic FW-190
- documents (that I can't show you) tell me that the
- FW is not affected by silly things like
- "compression" or "control forces". There are no
- bugs in FB, only maybe very small, tiny tunes.
- Because of these small tunes, the next upgrade (not
- patch, there are no bugs) will be out in 2005. You
- see, the game is just a heap of spaghetti code, so
- it takes us months to change one value.
-
- The flight modelling is perfect, just as it was
- perfect in IL-2 and after all its patches. In real
- WWII flight modelling would change, drastically,
- from month to month. Many pilots died from it, be
- sure.
-
- You may notice some sound glitches if you have
- strange hardware like a "Sound Blaster". So we will
- fix all problems with entirely new engine.
- Completely different and work 100%, and have EAX
- support and will turn bread into toast (and butter
- it).
-
- Until the next patch, (with small tunes, be sure),
- consider yourself all beta testers for this half
- year old game, and please send bug reports to my
- spam account. After the tunes, all the gauges will
- work, for real this time, be sure.
-
- Somebody killed me.
-
-
-
-
-
-
- HA HA HA HA HA very funny /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 07:27 AM
The Fw190 roll rate is a little......errr.........fast../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Buzz_25th
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------47|FC=-
<center>
http://www.vfa25.com/images/imglib/Vfa25.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 08:13 AM
Like I said in another thread, how is that people are saying that the 190 is uber now? So it went from being a pathetic target drone that nobody flew to being a super-plane?

I'll just sit back and soak in all the complaints about the 190. Ahhh, how sweet after suffering so long.



And Buzz, I agree the roll-rate is a little fast. I would have put this in microscopic print if I could have. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

<center>
http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

"Ice Warriors", by Nicolas Trudgian.

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 09:57 AM
GR142_Astro wrote:
2 - Damage model is overdone. I don't ever recall
- scoring damaged control cables.

FW had no control cables, but metallic rods instead. Much more difficult to break them.



<center>http://www.kurita.sk/PRIVATE/pictures/sig_il2.jpg

michapma
08-13-2003, 09:58 AM
Astro,

How much do you know about the 190? Do they have control cables, or does it use hydraulics?

I was going to write a lot more to let off some steam but I think I'll just have a peach instead. In fact I ought to lay off this forum for a week or so...

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

Ô =69.GIAP=ChapÔ

69.GIAP (http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/)</p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 10:20 AM
help the 190 is better than 109...it must be ueber.

Wake up guys!
the 190s outperformed the 109s!
It is not unkillable. and it is not ueber.

At least there are more serious problems than the 190, take a look at the P39 it is unstallable like b4.




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<hr style="width: 100%; height: 2px;">
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Als er sah, dass die Schlacht verloren war, weil die meisten seiner Soldaten tot ins Gras gebissen hatten, stellte er sich vor den siegreichen Gegner und ├╝bergab sich.

michapma
08-13-2003, 10:26 AM
That's funny, I managed to stall the P-39 plenty last night. Against a 190, ha-ha.

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

Ô =69.GIAP=ChapÔ

69.GIAP (http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/)</p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 10:31 AM
neither control cables or hydraulics

it used control bars ( i think it is the correct english term, if not, correct me http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif)

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 10:34 AM
So far so good - I find the 190 fm quite ok. Sustained turns are a little difficult but I hear that's how they really were, its cannons aren't worth the time you spend shooting - they also say this is how it was. Apart from this, the plane is good. Engine spins up as quickly as I'd expect (as a non-expert). The only thing I wonder about are these flip-flops after you went into a stall, but then, if the roll rate is realistic, then maybe those flip-flops aren't too far off either.

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 10:35 AM
p39 is not unstallable, but it is from all plane that i now fly heaviest to stall

yak3,la-7 stall much easier

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 11:11 AM
The Fw 190 had amazing roll rates.. the reason for that is that it was VERY unstable in the roll axis.. thats not a bad thing, that just means it didn't take much input to start it rolling.. some planes want to fly level and it takes quite a bit of force to roll them..

On the down side, that very same instability that gave them amazing roll rates made then suseptable to high speed snap rolls that more inherently stable planes were not.

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 11:15 AM
Please provide tracks/pics/stats/charts/etc or your observations will be regarded as personal biased whining.



http://members.chello.se/ven/milton.jpg

michapma
08-13-2003, 11:16 AM
AchimT, can you clarify what you wrote about the cannons?

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

Ô =69.GIAP=ChapÔ

69.GIAP (http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/)</p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 11:24 AM
Don't want to sound too pedantic but the 190 had control cables for the elevators. The rest of the controls were operated either by means of push rods or electrically. I dont suppose these components were any more bullet proof than cables though!

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 02:09 AM
Thanks for the posts. I never professed to be a 190 expert, but I do appreciate the info about the control rods. Seems to me they could still become damaged.

Nothing about my post was a whine.

Nobody addressed the pinwheel issue. Surely we must all agree that 30 - 40 rolls in sucession with no effect on the pilot is just plain silly.



"We will welcome them with bullets and shoes."

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 02:16 AM
I hate to admit this, but the Fw190 is my favorite plane in the patch.

The stall will keep it from being a real noob plane. Except for a faster roll rate than it should have. I think the FM is probably closer to the real plane than any other plane in the game. I'll be putting some time with it.

Buzz_25th
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------47|FC=-
<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto/hannig3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 02:20 AM
The super roll isnt gonna be the biggest help getting newbs kills either...It took me a long time to adjust from 109 to 190 gunnery.


"Ich bin ein Wuergerwhiner"

"The future battle on the ground will be preceded by battle in the air. This will determine which of the contestants has to suffer operational and tactical disadvantages and be forced throughout the battle into adoption compromise solutions." --Erwin Rommel

http://lbhskier37.freeservers.com/Mesig.jpg
--NJG26_Killa--

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 02:23 AM
StG77_Fennec wrote:
- I'm sorry, but you is wrong. My 20 years of
- aeronautical engineer training and authentic FW-190
- documents (that I can't show you) tell me that the
- FW is not affected by silly things like
- "compression" or "control forces". There are no
- bugs in FB, only maybe very small, tiny tunes.
- Because of these small tunes, the next upgrade (not
- patch, there are no bugs) will be out in 2005. You
- see, the game is just a heap of spaghetti code, so
- it takes us months to change one value.
-
- The flight modelling is perfect, just as it was
- perfect in IL-2 and after all its patches. In real
- WWII flight modelling would change, drastically,
- from month to month. Many pilots died from it, be
- sure.
-
- You may notice some sound glitches if you have
- strange hardware like a "Sound Blaster". So we will
- fix all problems with entirely new engine.
- Completely different and work 100%, and have EAX
- support and will turn bread into toast (and butter
- it).
-
- Until the next patch, (with small tunes, be sure),
- consider yourself all beta testers for this half
- year old game, and please send bug reports to my
- spam account. After the tunes, all the gauges will
- work, for real this time, be sure.
-
- Somebody killed me.


Thanks for the info Oleg and thanks to this post I finally know what name Oleg goes under at HL /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif .

----------------------------------------
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XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 02:31 AM
BuzzU, LOL!!!!

I knew you would be back. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

The Emperor will be pleased. (cheesy Darth Vader breathing starts)

http://www.oldgloryprints.com/Ardennes_Offensive.jpg


<center>
http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

"Ice Warriors", by Nicolas Trudgian.

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 02:31 AM
jurinko wrote:
-
- GR142_Astro wrote:
- 2 - Damage model is overdone. I don't ever recall
-- scoring damaged control cables.
-
- FW had no control cables, but metallic rods instead.
- Much more difficult to break them.
-

You to Hoarmurath

Wrong. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

The only control runs that used rods were for the ailerons. Both the rudder and elevator control runs had a portion of the control run with cables.

For the elevator control run it was rod from the joystick to the bellcrank on bulkhead 8. From there, it was doubled cable to the elevator differential unit in the rear of the fuselage (just behind the fuselage-tail break line). From there it was rod to the elevator bellcrank.

For the rudder, it was rod from the peddles to the rudder differential unit (mounted in front of the fuselage lifting tube; above the postion of the FuG16ZY loop antenna) from which it was cables to the rudder.
http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-stormclouds2.jpg


Message Edited on 08/13/0310:43PM by MiloMorai

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 04:06 AM
kyrule2 wrote: " Ahhh, how sweet after suffering so long. "

i TOTALLY know what you mean

the FW-190 was Uber in Real Life ..... its awesomeness is just now represented correctly

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 04:45 AM
"The pilot should at least go red, grey or barf all over his canopy"

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 07:39 AM
190 Kills now = Yak 3 kills.


*Yawn*



"We will welcome them with bullets and shoes."

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 08:07 AM
MiloMorai wrote:
- jurinko wrote:
--

-
- For the elevator control run it was rod from the
- joystick to the bellcrank on bulkhead 8. From there,
- it was doubled cable to the elevator differential
- unit in the rear of the fuselage (just behind the
- fuselage-tail break line). From there it was rod to
- the elevator bellcrank.
-
- For the rudder, it was rod from the peddles to the
- rudder differential unit (mounted in front of the
- fuselage lifting tube; above the postion of the
- FuG16ZY loop antenna) from which it was cables to
- the rudder.
- <img
- src="http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-s
- tormclouds2.jpg"> -
-
- Message Edited on 08/13/03 10:43PM by MiloMorai

Seems like the elevator one at least should be pretty safe if being fired on from dead six, as shots will go parallel to the only run of wires, the same thing should go for the rudder, but in that case the rudder should be fairly safe in any plane as most of the cables will run parallel to shots. I am just speculating judging on how I think you are describing it though.

"Ich bin ein Wuergerwhiner"

"The future battle on the ground will be preceded by battle in the air. This will determine which of the contestants has to suffer operational and tactical disadvantages and be forced throughout the battle into adoption compromise solutions." --Erwin Rommel

http://lbhskier37.freeservers.com/Mesig.jpg
--NJG26_Killa--

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 08:18 AM
GR142_Astro wrote:
- 1 - Roll rate allows online "pilots" to go into a
- crazed pinwheel, The pilot should at least
- Black out after so much rolling

I gota agree with that!!!!

Sure the roll rate is great as it should be....
But no human can ROLL for 3 or 4 minuts like Ive seen some doing with out blacking out....

Blackout should be modled into the Roll Axis



- 2 - Damage model is overdone. I don't ever recall
- scoring damaged control cables. The only hope of
- bringing a 190 down was to score a lucky PK. That
- seems to be gone now as well.


Your wrong about that I been killing fw's with a p39 & mig3u
and FW190A9 most effective way to down a fw is with B&Z tactics against it



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<center> http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1059752328.jpg </center>

<center><FONT COLOR="white">The "Ace Edge"(c).
With my incremental trim
I am actually able to turn so quickly that, I never turn at all.
In Fact the Planet Earth rotates around the Axis of My PC, thus giving me the optimum turn rate and insuring that you
the bandit are promptly fraged !!!
In memory Of Ray R.I.P.[/i]</font>



Message Edited on 08/14/0307:26AM by AFJ_Murdoc

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 08:29 AM
1.1b
The FW explodes when you hit the fueltank. The Wing goes off when you hit the wingroot.A PK is not as likely as before but possible. So not much of a ├╝berplane when not flown right.

The Rollrate is maybe a little too high on the fw. (dora has no outer wing guns but higher wingspan so it maybe accurate need to look up a rollrate chart)

But Climbrates and Vertical manouevers seem to fit more in the historical charts. The forward view is still without refraction and plane flies without nose down.

Outdiving works now except for p47 .
High Speed manouevers work.
20 mm do damage .
Parts dont fall off at dive speeds where they shouldnt.

Tuning times are behind that of the vvs planes except at high speed. So no YAK3 kills = FW kills it needs another flying style.

Climbrate is behind that of the la7 at least at low alt up to 3500 m .

There is no question that the 190 was a tough plane. The fact that it didnt look good in fb 1.0 didnt make it a bad plane.

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 08:29 AM
I love it, I love it.

Now 190 is truly a beast in the sky like in history.

La-7? heh.. left roll, right roll, left break and bye bye. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif