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View Full Version : Oleg, thank you for the AI in FB



redcloud63
12-28-2003, 09:49 AM
just my two cents on this topic. my great uncle
Bill flew wildcats,later hellcats in WW2. he was
the only pilot of the original sqadron he shipped
out with to survive the war. my great uncle
Bernard( Bills little brother) was a crew member
on a B-17. he was the only member of the crew
that he trained with to survive the war. everyone
in these forums knows that the casualty rate among
all airforces in WW2 was horrifically high.
we all want an immersive experience from this
game and that's what Mr Maddox & co have given
us. IMO realistic gameplay means you will probably get killed.

redcloud63
12-28-2003, 09:49 AM
just my two cents on this topic. my great uncle
Bill flew wildcats,later hellcats in WW2. he was
the only pilot of the original sqadron he shipped
out with to survive the war. my great uncle
Bernard( Bills little brother) was a crew member
on a B-17. he was the only member of the crew
that he trained with to survive the war. everyone
in these forums knows that the casualty rate among
all airforces in WW2 was horrifically high.
we all want an immersive experience from this
game and that's what Mr Maddox & co have given
us. IMO realistic gameplay means you will probably get killed.

LuftKuhMist
12-28-2003, 12:43 PM
You get killed?

redcloud63
12-28-2003, 06:28 PM
my point is,since a lot of pilots(or aircrews)
were shot down on their first missions, just
getting back to base is an accomplishment.
guess i'm looking for realism in FB above all
else,and with AI being what it is in this game
i'm gettin' my moneys worth. just my two cents.
thanks again Oleg.

SeaFireLIV
12-28-2003, 07:04 PM
AI is very good, of course. The best. Just a little work on the formations spacing and parking on landed need. If we don`t thank him he won`t know, if we don`t mention the little errors he can`t make it even better! Hoorah!http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

`Man is an embodied paradox, a bundle of contradictions.` Lacon.

LuftKuhMist
12-28-2003, 10:03 PM
Nah, the AI ain't the best.

But everything else is.

VW-IceFire
12-28-2003, 10:15 PM
AI in this game is great...its not as good as it could be but we always want to push the limits to the fullest that we can. Strive for perfection...but what we have is simply amazing. It still seems computerized some times but othertimes its very organic in its thinking...

- IceFire
http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/spit-sig.jpg

VVS-Manuc
12-29-2003, 02:10 AM
I don't love the AI! Reasons?...heavy AI-Bombers going into aerobatics under attack...wingmen are miles away when they are ordered to give cover...AI-snipers in clouds and darkness...etc

Jetbuff
12-29-2003, 07:49 AM
I think Oleg did a great job with the "combat" routines of the AI. They're not perfect, but they're definitely challenging. The E-maneuvering in particular has improved a lot.

However, there are a lot of other little AI nuances that can just ruin your day. Yes some of them are under your control, but not always.

I have a wishlist for some of the major AI gripes I'd like to see addressed:
<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">AI Problem Proposed fix
------------------------------------------------------------------------
All to frequent collisions Increased formation spacing, at
least 150m - both historically
more accurate and probably easy
to implement

Disturbing landing behaviour AI should attempt to land one at
a time, with those holding in
the pattern still alert to enemy
planes, etc. i.e. don't have the
whole flight switch to "landing"
mode, but rather one plane at a
time

Crazy landing dives Program AI to hold altitude at
last waypoint and descend in a
gentle spiral, again one at a
time.

Vision (may be impossible before BOB) AI should not see through clouds
or their fuselage and barely see
at night and/or bad weather.
Different levels should have
different SA levels, e.g. you
can fly formation with a rookie
and he won't know, ace OTOH will
spot you from far away, still
blind at 6 o'clock low, but will
do a crazy-ivan every now and
then to check 6.

Missing Comms 1. Complete callsigns, e.g.
white-1, red-3, etc.
2. DISENGAGE!
3. Return to primary duty (e.g.
escort)
4. Where the f@#k are you?! :)
5. I'm Winchester...</pre>

http://members.rogers.com/teemaz/sig.jpg

essemm
12-29-2003, 11:41 AM
I have one to add to the list above:

AI Wingmen trying to shoot through you to kill the guy in front of you.

http://server3.uploadit.org/files/141103-warloch_small.jpg

LuftKuhMist
12-29-2003, 12:01 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=400102&f=63110913&m=20510083&p=2

The AI thread.

Seriously the AI isn't great at all. Better than in many games but very stupid and unefficient except against other ai (even then).

Just an example: AI wasting ammo on a bad deflection shot. Too common, against a human you would be dead, against AI, he just keeps the lead pouring in thin air until empty.

BfHeFwMe
12-29-2003, 02:37 PM
Not every mission ended up as a total meat grinder either. That's what contact results in every time with AI. Some only play it online in doggy mode, to bad they can't see how it can kill sales and their own future expansions.

tsisqua
12-29-2003, 03:49 PM
I wonder what we are comparing the AI to. I agree about the missing comms and strange landing behaviour, but in (dare I even say that I play it?) CFS3, I can shoot down the AI in a one on one dogfight at will, at any difficulty. Get in a P-51, and try that against a Zero in FB. It boggles my mind how many lines of code it must take to get the combat tactics of the AI to behave as it does.

Tsisqua

http://www.uploadit.org/files/010903-nedChristie.jpg
Tsalagi Asgaya Equa

LeadSpitter_
12-29-2003, 04:07 PM
funny i have never seen any aircraft in reality perform manuevers the ai pull off in my entire lifetime. www.millionair.com (http://www.millionair.com) p40n 29629

My grandfather and many uncles were in wwii

grandfather was on the carrier tarawa against japan guada canal and midway as well in the korean war and was a good friend of holsey a couple ranks lower. grandmother aided the japanese after hiroshima and developed mialoma bone cancer which isnt in our family

my uncles been thru the dday invasion ben landed at omaha and william at utah

both survived the war but william hung himself after the war, i have letters from him that talk about the germans handcuffing 14 year old kids to the mg42s on the invasion so they would stay and fight not runaway and alot of other destrubing stuff he been thru which is why he killed himself i guess he couldnt take it mentally.

http://www.geocities.com/leadspittersig/LSIG.txt
VIEW MY PAINTSCHEMES HERE (http://www.il2skins.com/?planeidfilter=all&planefamilyfilter=all&screenshotfilter=allskins&countryidfilter=all&authoridfilter=%3ALeadspitter%3A&historicalidfilter=all&Submit=+++Apply+filters++&action=list&ts=1072257400)

SeaFireLIV
12-29-2003, 06:17 PM
We have put this AI concept in perspective guys. It IS the BEST compared to anything else. Check CFS3, as Tsisqua mentioned the AI is sooo easy to shoot down, no challenge, among other faults, they don`t act like they want to live. IN FB/IL2 they act like they wish to survive. To my memory EAW`s the only WWII sim (and maybe PAW) that came close- and they were years before, I`ll bet some of you don`t remeber those sims! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
I notice that most of the criticisms (apart from Jetbuff`s, who I entirely agree with on this) want the sort of things that our technology is not really able to implement fully. AI is not really AI, y`know, it`s just a bunch of coded routines. We may come close in BOB, but mark my words it will not be perfect, people will still complain about it. The day we get perfect AI, will be the day we have computers that are Human. Scary.
We`ll never get them as good as Humans, don`t expect that.

`Man is an embodied paradox, a bundle of contradictions.` Lacon.

Jetbuff
12-30-2003, 01:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by essemm:
I have one to add to the list above:

AI Wingmen trying to shoot through you to kill the guy in front of you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hence the request for a "DISENGAGE!" command, a.k.a. "Stay away from my kill you thieving b@st@ges!!!" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Like Seafire said, FB's overall AI is quite convincing, esp. when it comes to combat abilities. Now, if Oleg would only get rid of the few situations where they act ******ed...

There are innumerable features that would make the AI more "human" like random behaviour, personality traits (aggressive versus timid pilots, regardless of skill level) and even plausible stupidity like once in a while landing with the gear up! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

However, I really doubt the FB engine/current hardware will support an exhaustive AI wishlist. Hopefully 1.22 (esp. with most of the FM/DM issues solved already) will focus on the AI and remove as many of the little annoyances as possible.

In my list above, the only ambitious requests IMO are the AI vision/SA and comms.

http://members.rogers.com/teemaz/sig.jpg

LuftKuhMist
12-30-2003, 01:49 AM
As Jetbuff said, the AI is good except for the few exceptions when it comes pretty lame.

For example, 1943, the gulf of Finland. Flying number 1 in a group of 8 messerschmitt 109G2 we are heading toward 4 poor bastards flying lavochkins 5F. my altitude is 4000 meters, ennemy is at 1000 meters. I order to attack then dive toward number one, I manage to get a couple of hits in his engine, he is trailing oil. Number 2 gets on my six but I manage to nail a few shells in his engine, trailing oil too. Number 3 and four caught a glimpse of what happened and target me (number 3 at least). being on number 2's butt, I ask for cover... I hear acknowledgements... I look around... I AM ALONE, DAMNIT! My comrades are leaving me alone in this situation. I am in trouble so I decide to pull up... then I watch my six, number 3 and 4 are gone, I look around then I see something REALLY REALLY STUPID: The enemy is regrouping, reforming and resuming its course toward its target in our territory... the two first planes of the flights have their engines grinding and are barely flying, one of them is a cheese... their enemy (me) is still around... and they decide to resume mission... I had only to line up four times behind them and I bagged four kills. They did not react!!!

BfHeFwMe
12-30-2003, 10:22 AM
Yeah, there are times you can only shake your fist in frustration at the stupidity. Leading a flight of four F-190F-8's on flack suppression, the guns are assigned as their primary target. On approach above 1500m the order is issued to attack AAA, they acknowledge. Guns open up shortly after, in my dive run and look back, the knuckle heads have just jettisoned all their ordinance and dive for the deck right in the area of the guns. Now they crisscross the guns atempting to take them out with cannon and mg's????

Of course they die a quick death since the guns are kind of heavy and they loiter taking pot shots. Doesn't sound very intelligent to me. You'd never see anything quite so silly in Mig Alley ground attack, heck, they even had controllers and working FAC's involved in the ground attacks. I'm sorry, but there are older sims that blow the pants off this rather sad AI.

Flygflottilj16_Sulan
01-01-2004, 02:38 PM
quote:
I wonder what we are comparing the AI to....

Tsisqua

-Real life, what we know about it... Certainly (as mentioned) that every fight don´t end up in a meatgrinder like most fights do in FB, and also that about their way of landing, and the seeing trough clouds and own plane...

AI being perfect (whatever that means) will never happen I believe besides, in the future I hope we´ll all have broadband so we can fly mostly with peaple...
In the meantime I think things like:
Formation and landing routines, seeing trough stuff and them allmost not EVER disengaging could be worked on, so as to reduce the times you rise from the computer cursing the AI for your screwed mission that started out sooo good with you having an allout splended experience with this (compared to the rest of the market) VERY GOOD sim...

LuftKuhMist
01-02-2004, 10:31 PM
I don't want to fly exclusively with people.

People don't want to fly a fieseler storch and be a target.

I get tired of waiting to get to action and lagging. I get tired of cheaters. I get tired of people always flying the same planes online.

I want to be rude with the ennemy without offensing somebody.

That's why AI is important.