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XyZspineZyX
09-01-2003, 04:41 PM
Hi there!

I'm really interested to learn a lot to play Il2: FB but after reading through some threads here I'm not sure if I should invest my time into it.

First: I can't play online! Because of my job I'm at home only at weekends and I don't have the time to meet online with others on a regular basis. Other than that I don't like playing online with people I don't know in person and I just want to do my own thing. I want to play singleplayer only.

So, I have to work with the AI. And though I know and respect all the work, Oleg and the other developers involved put into the AI and the dynamic campaign it's limited by todays hardware and nowhere near a human player.

I can't use team-tactics with AI! AI pilots can see me even if I come at their six out of the clouds and with the sun in my back!

So, good bye "real world tactics"!?

And if I can't use "real world tactics" I can't simulate flying a WWII-Fighter plane. All I could do is to train some gunnery or bombing but never a real dogfight.

Am I right or am I too pessimistic? Can IL2: FB be played with real world tactics even with/against AI?

I would like to read what you think about this.

Bye,
-Vic-

XyZspineZyX
09-01-2003, 04:41 PM
Hi there!

I'm really interested to learn a lot to play Il2: FB but after reading through some threads here I'm not sure if I should invest my time into it.

First: I can't play online! Because of my job I'm at home only at weekends and I don't have the time to meet online with others on a regular basis. Other than that I don't like playing online with people I don't know in person and I just want to do my own thing. I want to play singleplayer only.

So, I have to work with the AI. And though I know and respect all the work, Oleg and the other developers involved put into the AI and the dynamic campaign it's limited by todays hardware and nowhere near a human player.

I can't use team-tactics with AI! AI pilots can see me even if I come at their six out of the clouds and with the sun in my back!

So, good bye "real world tactics"!?

And if I can't use "real world tactics" I can't simulate flying a WWII-Fighter plane. All I could do is to train some gunnery or bombing but never a real dogfight.

Am I right or am I too pessimistic? Can IL2: FB be played with real world tactics even with/against AI?

I would like to read what you think about this.

Bye,
-Vic-

XyZspineZyX
09-01-2003, 04:51 PM
I think it´s no worse than any other WW2 sim out there,so can it be played offline?....Yes.

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_113_1062255625.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-01-2003, 04:51 PM
Vicente_cgn wrote:
- Am I right or am I too pessimistic? Can IL2: FB be
- played with real world tactics even with/against AI?


Absolutely!

Most people play offline, and enjoy FB that way. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



-jippo

XyZspineZyX
09-01-2003, 04:59 PM
You are definitely too pessimistic.

If I were to be so pessimstic about on-line play I would say its full of kids & team killers & a complete waste of time.

XyZspineZyX
09-01-2003, 05:02 PM
Well I play the game almost entirely offline because I don't like online flying. I mean to see Me-109s shooting down other Me-109s online is about al I can stand!! The coops would be ok but seldom do they get enough players and you have to wait 4ever to get going. I know what you mean about the AI not being good enough to use team tactics, but that's the case in any CFS I've ever played. In FB, you are on a team by yourself. The AI do one thing and you do something else.
If you have a wingman he will follow you but not try and shoot down planes on your six very often. He just follows you blindly like he's in a daze or something. If you're flight leader, then they don't always do what you command them to do and refuse to use Bnz tatics in appropriate planes. They only know the TnB dogfight style, so that's all the yuse. I really don't like to be a flight leader any way since I love to formation fly. If you're leader, they form on you.
Despite the unrealistic AI behavior, I have a lot of fun playing this way anyway, although I always get an unrealistic number of kills. And none of the AI in my squad usually survive long, only live about 2 months at the most.
They are more like AS ( artificially stupid ) instead of AI, and you either get used to it or play online. Nothing we'll be able to do about it and it's highly doubtful the AI will ever improve much. I still enjoy despite the limitations. I really don't understand it but I do.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin - 1755



Message Edited on 09/01/0304:04PM by mortoma

XyZspineZyX
09-01-2003, 05:03 PM
As you have already found out, offline play is nowhere near as fun as multiplayer is. Or at least, it's nowhere as fun as online wars are.

That said, IMHO you can recover a good deal of "suspension of disbelief" if you play as leader and not as a wingman. Most of the gripes I have are related to communicating with higher rank pilots, e.g. for rejoining them after a fight, guessing which messages are for you, etc..

As for AI omnisciency, at least once I joined a "wing" that I thought was mine, only to find (oh the horror!) that it was, instead, an enemy fighter sweep formation. I approached from their six, as though I was to join their formation (I-16s), then took down one, then ran like hell toward base.. heehee

You will definitely have fun with FB offline.. Only, don't expect it to be immersive as EECH or Falcon.

XyZspineZyX
09-01-2003, 05:05 PM
Welcome to the greatest prop flight sim ever!

Unless your xenophobic to the extreme you should try online. It's alright if you have limited amounts of time to play. You learn much faster playing against a human pilot. There are no expectations from anyone in this community that you devote tons-o-time to this sim, even though many of us do.

Until IL-2 I NEVER played online. Most online games were nothing more than frag-fests which didn't interest me. When I went online the first time I met several people who were willing to help me with my flying skills. Some of them I've never seen online since. I owe them a debt of gratitude.

There's nothing wrong with playing offline. It is a great way to practice basic skills and the campagins are challenging. There are plenty of great missions and campagins you can download that require 'real world' tactics.

One of the beautys of this sim is the fact that no matter what your level of skill or amount of time you have, this is undoubtably the best sim currently on the market.

Don't worry about a thing, just start your engine(s) and fly!

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XyZspineZyX
09-01-2003, 05:13 PM
Of course. Nowadays FB AI is the best available for a sim, they are really stupid sometimes, but the patch improved things dramatically.
Anyway, no other sim is even close to IL2´s AI behaviour.

Some opinions aroun here are to harsh, they do not compare FB with it´s competitors but with their expectations, which can cause some misundertandings...

"Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty but the pig enjoys it!"

XyZspineZyX
09-01-2003, 05:24 PM
Wow - so many answer in such a short time, thank you all! :-)

I know that IL2: FB is the one and only WWII-Flightsim and the question wasn't if I should try another flightsim but if it makes sense at all to play even the best of them offline.

But as your answers show me, investing the time in IL2: FB will be rewarded even offline. :-)

I'm not new to prop-sims, I'm not even new to IL2: FB but I just haven't tried to get into it serious.

I decided that I won't get anywhere if I play many games at the same time - with games as complex as this I have to invest nearly all my playing time into one program.

The last game I played "serious" was Operation Flashpoint and it was very rewarding, even as singleplayer only. But now, after I played all the official addons and trying some of the unofficial I want to move on.

And now I have to decide: will it be Falcon 4 SP3? Will it be IL2: FB? Will it be Colin McRae 3? Or FS2004? Will it be any other complex game out there, perhaps an RTS? Which one will have the most rewarding SP-expirience?

Though I can imagine how great it must be to play online with others I don't really like the thought. I've once joined a OFP-Squad, known as serious players, but after a short time I just felt ... old compared to them. Their speech, their behaviour ... I'm only 31 but I felt like I was surrounded by schoolkids. Maybe my fault, but I just didn't feel comfortable.

But anyway - I think, I concentrate my playingtime on IL2: FB now - it's a great community here and I'm sure, after some more practise I'll get the hang of it. No beginning is easy, right? :-)

Thanks and sorry for the somewhat bad english - my mothertongue is german.

Bye,
-Vic-

XyZspineZyX
09-01-2003, 05:34 PM
Vicente_cgn;

I'm sorry you had a bad experience with a squad. If your interested at all in being part of a squad you might want to look here;

http://proudbirdswing.tripod.com/proudbirds.htm

This is my squad. They are a great bunch of guys who are mature and easygoing. There is no expectation of being at every squad meeting or flying every mission. Our core value is "family first". We realize this is just a game. We fly for fun and only fun.

I'm sure ours isn't the only squadron like this. But do yourself a favor and just go look at our site. You might like what you see.

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http://www.escadrila54.com/logo_sm.jpg


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XyZspineZyX
09-01-2003, 08:05 PM
Yeah, play online!! Fly Messerschmits against Messerschmits or a P-47 against a P-40. Now that's realistic!!! Wow!! If I were you, I'd stick with offline.........believe me.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin - 1755

XyZspineZyX
09-01-2003, 08:11 PM
Definitely, check us out. We're all about fun, not being there everyday, though some of us are anyway

Boosher-PBNA
----------------
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http://proudbirdswing.tripod.com/proudbirds.htm

http://www.escadrila54.com/logo_sm.jpg

<center><marquee><FONT COLOR="RED"><FONT SIZE="+1">"The ProudBirds..Flying High and Proud..~S~"<FONT SIZE> </marquee>

XyZspineZyX
09-01-2003, 08:15 PM
I forgot, the worse part of flying online is seeing the plane in front of you float like a butterfly and do weird crap due to online lag or warping. It may zoom ahead suddenly like it's the Starship Enterprise and they just went to warp speed. The online world truly sucks!!! I'd rather put up with the stupid AI, at least the planes don't do weird stuff like that.
Also, you can play with the realism settings you want instead of it being dictated to you by the servers. For example, I hate playing with CEM since I can't always see the tachometer or Manifold pressure guages, or maybe the boost. I insist on being able to see all the instruments if I'm expected to fly CEM, which you usually can't in FB. Plus
the fact that the planes with constant speed props don't react work realistically. The MP always stays the same place no matter where you have your throttle, unless its all the way down to idle. I'm a real pilot and I hate the so-called CEM in FB. I have no use for it at all. Flying offline allows me to set it the way I want it. Let's face it online sucks.....real bad.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin - 1755



Message Edited on 09/01/0307:28PM by mortoma

XyZspineZyX
09-01-2003, 08:23 PM
Sorry to cut in gentlemen. I'd like to echo what has gone before and say that IL2:FB offline is just as enjoyable off line as it is online. It is still a challenge, and hugely immersive.

Now if I may I would like to address the next few words to the PBNA.

I went to your site and I couldn't help but notice that you use Roger Wilco. We of the 112th switched a couple of months ago to "teamspeak" (available at www.teamspeak.org (http://www.teamspeak.org)) and are hugely impressed with it.

The ability to set up multiple hotkeyed channels is a real bonus. imagine switching between your own flight and others at the push of a button...

In addition, the wide variety of codecs means you can tailor the usage to the bandwidth available.

The only thing I miss is the mic clicks http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

&lt;embed src="http://www.redhalibut.co.uk/webs/RedHalibut/images/flyboysig240603.swf" loop=true menu=false quality=high wmode=transparent bgcolor=#030303 WIDTH=400 HEIGHT=32 TYPE="application/x-shockwave-flash"></EMBED>

XyZspineZyX
09-01-2003, 08:51 PM
flyboy_112th wrote:

- Now if I may I would like to address the next few
- words to the PBNA.
-
- I went to your site and I couldn't help but notice
- that you use Roger Wilco. We of the 112th switched a
- couple of months ago to "teamspeak" (available at
- www.teamspeak.org (http://www.teamspeak.org)) and are hugely impressed with it.
-
- The ability to set up multiple hotkeyed channels is
- a real bonus. imagine switching between your own
- flight and others at the push of a button...
-
- In addition, the wide variety of codecs means you
- can tailor the usage to the bandwidth available.
-
- The only thing I miss is the mic clicks http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The site has not been updated lately. We have recently switched to Teamspeak.


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XyZspineZyX
09-01-2003, 10:20 PM
huh ??? can it be played offline ??????????

XyZspineZyX
09-01-2003, 10:21 PM
Yep/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Hot Space

An Antelope is not just for Christmas - It's for putting in Sandwich's as well!!!

XyZspineZyX
09-02-2003, 02:06 AM
Yes...it has the best AI out IMO... If you set your enemy levels to a mix of veteran & rookie and take the time to learn the FMB you will be occupied for a while. I still find the QMB to be a lot of fun.

<CENTER>http://www.world-wide-net.com/tuskegeeairmen/ta-1943.jpg <marquee><FONT COLOR="RED"><FONT SIZE="+1">"Straighten up.......Fly right..~S~"<FONT SIZE> </marquee> http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat

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XyZspineZyX
09-02-2003, 02:31 AM
less than 5% of FB players play online


almost everyone plays offline .. there are soem excellent offline campaigns available as addons



its just that virtually all of that 5% seems to post on these forums that gives the misleading impression it is an online game .. online players are vocal but very much a minority

<center> http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0SQDLAtUWiWZ3BKw19!aryp7v3C1h1DuNwpHOOuqhlraGSyMAY KiPEOZAA1OBgsLu*Sa0UQ2my0PiFyvNkJ5K7Clsoy7yNtEvOXY nHDuPNiotpZACY2oJxw/aircraftround.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
09-02-2003, 02:49 AM
I have played online on occasion, but I always find myself going back to the offline Quick Mission Builder or Dynamic Campaign when I'm looking for some aerial fun. Why? Because online, you don't get that historical WWII sense that you get from participating in an offline campaign. To me, it often feels like a cartoonish free-for-all--P-39s shooting at P-47s, people flying around in a Bf-109 with American markings...and worst of all, the sheer LAG. I have a 256 kb/sec connection, and a top-of-the-line graphics card, and yet on a server with more than five players, I can't get a realistically playable framerate. I find I just can't enjoy a choppy, jerky game.

Now, I have heard some great things about online play--and it makes me jealous sometimes when I hear of the great experiences some players have had participating in an online squadron or real-time campaign. Unfortunately, like yourself, I simply haven't the time to participate, nor the desire for that matter. The idea of showing up for a practice with teammates on a regular basis doesn't suit me well. So, I stick to the offline. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Of course, that's just my opinion. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif I'm not a fan of online games in general, really, but I do go online with other players from around the world from time to time.

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XyZspineZyX
09-02-2003, 02:52 AM
Vicente_cgn, first of all, stop reading my posts as I whine about AI all the time.

Listen to Bear instead. Offline play is limited unless you learn the mission editor (they call it FMB) and create your own missions. The nice thing about AI in combat is that the more aircraft, the less the individual AI faults are apparent. In a large dogfight, you really have to watch your back, cos they will sneak up on you.

Ignore the "campaigns" although there are some nice 3rd Party campaign generators out there. Someone else here would know where to go to find them.

Especially after The Patch, the feel of simming a FB I~16 (a what?) beats any computer game made, let alone western made "flight simulators."

XyZspineZyX
09-02-2003, 04:30 AM
For a really good time online coops are the way to go. The Dfs are fun too at times but I notice in coops you dont get the same UFO like effects for some reason. I like coops. In a coop you can run with 2 or more guys as teammates against AI and have a ball.

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XyZspineZyX
09-02-2003, 06:29 AM
Hello!

Huh - a lot of different opinions to read. I'm always impressed how much energy you put into "promoting" this sim - in a positive way! This is really a community Oleg can be proud of! :-)

So, I'll try to answer most of your answers! ;-)

@Beebop-PBNA: I've taken a look at the site of your squad, you're one of their newest members, right?

@mortoma: You seem to be as preoccupied with onlinegaming like I am. ;-) I don't have enough experience to talk about lag, warping and such things but I was dreaming about an "online" squad that meets and plays via LAN - now that must be great. And via LAN = no Lag or am I wrong? Anyway - for this you need the people, the place and the time - three things I don't have. So I think I do what you suggest and stay offline. After all many of those answers to my thread persuaded me that it's not the worst thing to do.

@WTE_Galway: Hm, 5% ... I've never thought about this. But you maybe right - it can't be that me and mortoma are the only offlineplayers. Good thought! :-)

@LEXX_Luthor: Why do you prefer the FMB and not the dynamic campaign? I mean, if I create my own mission, I know what will happen and which planes I'll meet. Isn't it nice to have the element of surprise? Please tell me what's wrong with the campaign.

@Bearcat99: Yes, IF I would fly online I would like to fly Coop. You could try to fly in a formation, make mission plans for ground targets, order your wingman to clear your six, use all the tactics ... these are the things that would draw me over to online gaming.

So, what I plan to do next weekend is setting up my Cougar, looking for a nice profile and starting a BF-109 fighter campaign in the northern part at the beginning of the war. Sometimes I'll use the QMB if I have to create tactics against a particular plane. Later, if I survived the campaign perhaps I'll try a campaign as a bomberpilot or try the Stuka or ... there are so many things to do. :-)

Thank you all for participating in this thread and helping me to make up my mind.

CYA,
-Vic-

XyZspineZyX
09-02-2003, 07:29 AM
-- Sometimes I'll use the QMB if I have to create tactics against a particular plane.

Use FMB instead, it gives much more power to set up a test, and once you know a little FMB, its as "quick" as QMB.

For obvious reasons, Oleg should have never created QMB. Of course, a standard Windows interface for FMB would have been helpful.

Well that's very helpful Oleg. Thanks a lot pal. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-02-2003, 03:11 PM
Hi Vicente

Just a final word on this subject, I've played Offline for about 350 missions with 3 Different pilots (German Fighter, Russian Fighter and Russian Bomber) and i can't leave this drug. I 'm in front of the computer 8 hours a day at the office and when i get back home i just have to fly a couple of missions just to relax.

AI does some weirds things sometimes, but the patch (which i won't install due to sound and track bugs) has apparently fixed a lot of them.

Nevertheless i still manage to get a lot of help from my wingmen, when you can't get rid of an ennemy at your six just press TAB+2+7 (anyone help me) or TAB+1+3 and your personal wingman will stop following you like a puppy and attack the closets ennemy.

In ground attack you can also get a lot of help, even the fact that there are 4 planes instead of just one (your own) attacking an airfield distracts a lot of AAA power and incrases your chances of survival.

Remember that when you start a new Campaign you can choose to start it at the very beginning of the war or later and that you can also choose wich plane you'll fly in each period (this can be changed later modifying some files..but that's another question). First try QMB and test different planes, they all behave in different way and have different armaments so tactics will depend not only on the plane you're flying but also on wich planes are you flying against.

Finally have you checked toe movies made by some of the guys that get into this forum, most of them are based on actual offline gameplay "footage" so you can get a taste of the fun.

Here are the best links to movies sites:

http://sunstarentertainment.maddsites.com/il2homepage4.html

http://sunstarentertainment.maddsites.com/il2homepagehauptman99.html

http://france-simulation.com/

Good flight to you !

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