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cawimmer430
02-27-2007, 08:00 AM
This is from one of the last Mercedes-Benz Classic magazines I have at home. It is a nostalgic comparison between two great machines from the 1930s: the infamous Junkers Ju-52/3m and the 1932 Mercedes-Benz Type SS sports cruiser.

The Ju-52 is one of my favorite planes. I just find them to be stunningly gorgeous for some reason. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

The Junkers Ju-52/3m enjoyed both a civilian and military career with Lufthansa (and a number of foreign airlines) as well as with the German Luftwaffe. The Mercedes-Benz Type SS was a toy for the rich and famous. A car made for the gentleman racer.

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r295/cawimmer431/Ju52vsMercedes_00.jpg


This is a nostalgic comparison between two great machines of the 1930s. The infamous Junkers Ju-52/3m and the 1932 Mercedes-Benz Type SS sports cruiser. The Junkers Ju-52/3m enjoyed both a civilian and military career with Lufthansa (and a number of foreign airlines) as well as with the German Luftwaffe. The Mercedes-Benz Type SS was a toy for the rich and famous. A car made for the gentleman racer.


We begin by examing the time period. These were the turbulant 1930s, when 6.1 million Germans were unemployed and the future looked bleak. Those few who have the wealth to enjoy life, enjoy it to the fullest. And this where these toys of the rich come into play. Those with money often took a trip to sunny Italy in the Lufthansa Junkers Ju-52/3m. For those who preferred to stay on the ground and enjoy Europe from the road in an expensive luxury cruiser, the Mercedes-Benz Type SS was virtually the only choice.

The Junkers Ju-52/3m debuted in 1932 and is an improved version of the single-engined (and underpowered) Ju-52. The three BMW 132 engines with 650-horsepower each give the 10,500 kg heavy Junkers Ju-52/3m a top speed of 280 km/h. Cruising speed however is 180 km/h - about the same as one of Germany's most prestigeous luxury cars with the star on the hood.

The Mercedes-Benz Type SS is that luxury car. It does not quite reach the horsepower output of a single BMW 132 engine, but the polished 7.1-l straight-6 with a Roots-Kompressor is good for 200-horsepower giving the Type SS a top speed of well over 180 km/h - fast for the time. Even the type numbers are impressive: 27/140/200 PS, 27,160/200 PS, 27/170/225 PS and 27/180/250 PS. Those who know their past Mercedes will know that the first number indicates the engine capacity horsepower tax, the second number is the horsepower output with the Kompressor turned off, while the last number is the horsepower output with the Kompressor engaged. These performance figures are for the Type SS and the equally famous Type SSK.

Junkers Ju-52/3m "Tante Ju" and Mercedes-Benz Type SS, these two machines fit together as they represented luxury travelling during this time period. They represent elegance, luxury and speed. Speed in this case is subjective. Those that are used to modern cars will find the seating position of the Type SS a bit akward. The cushy leather bench-seat is elevated upfront and the gigantic wooden steering wheel of the Type SS can be frightening, even moreso since there is no power-steering (wasn't even option). At low speeds, or when trying to park, the power needed to steer can cause blisters - if you have delicate hands. The Type SS was meant to be driven by athletic males. The use of muscle power when steering was seen as a challenge as it defined the sportiness - both of the car and the driver. Does this luxury car come with a heater or a airconditioning unit? No. Wasn't an option. A cloth roof protects against wind and rain, but most Type SS drivers of the day had to dress appropriately in heavy leather clothing, a scarf, goggles and a leather cap.

The 7.1-l engine of the Mercedes delivers ample power. The first Type SS, built from 1928 to 1930, produced 140-horsepower in naturally aspirated form while the second Type SS (1930-1932) delivered a healthier 160-hp with the Kompressor set to off. The Kompressor is activated by pushing the accelerator pedal to the end. The engine begins to wail and a few seconds later, the driver can feel those extra 40-horses galloping. 200-horsepower in action. And for those who want it more extreme, a factory option was available to have the the camshaft of the Rennsport Type SS installed. This installation means a longer stroke and brings the final horsepower output with Kompressor up to 225-horsepower - enough to beat the Junkers Ju-52/3m in an acceleration race by 10 seconds.

Driving the Type SS could have been a lot of fun, but the appearance of affordable cars for the masses, who's top speed was inbetween 60 and 80 km/h meant that one had to watch the road ahead! Speed limits also meant that travelling by airplane was indeed quicker.

Deutsche Luft Hansa, which becomes Lufthansa in 1933, offers the flying adventure in the form of the Junkers Ju-52/3m with its characteristic rippled fuselage. The Junkers Ju-52/3m has a proven record of reliability. It was the reliability of the Junkers Ju-52/3m that lowered the overall aircraft crash landing quotes from 7 to 1.5 per one million flying kilometers. The airplane from Dessau is also rugged. In 1932, a Ju-52/3m collides with a small training aircraft and is still capable of flying, much less landing, despite the severe damage. This incident led to Lufthansa employing the Ju-52/3m in great amounts. By 1936, the airline had 44 of these aircraft in service: a staggering 75% of all Lufthansa aircraft.

The comfort of the Junkers Ju-52/3m exceeds that of the Mercedes Type SS. For one, the good 'ole "Tante Ju" offers an encolosed cabin with heating. Pressurized cabins were not yet in style, but the 17 passengers could be given oxygen masks when flying over areas with thin air such as the Alps. There was no sound absorbing material to keep the engine noise out however. Yet this has a charm of its own. The three BMW engines, with a maximum RPM of 2,050, induce calmness and relax you.

The Ju-52/3m in our photo shoot belongs to a Swiss Airline company and is one of six flyable Ju-52/3m's still surviving in todays world. Due to noise emission laws, each engine has been limited to producing a maximum of only 500-horsepower.

Flying or driving? That was also the question in the 1930s. Both were expensive in their own right. A Junkers Ju-52/3m will consume a staggering 380 liters of gasoline in one hour. The Mercedes-Benz Type SS is more fuel efficient. It "only" requires 27 L / 100 km. Expensive indeed.


The Scans

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/6822/ju52vsmercedes01oe2.th.jpg (http://img20.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ju52vsmercedes01oe2.jpg) http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/4395/ju52vsmercedes02go0.th.jpg (http://img340.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ju52vsmercedes02go0.jpg) http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/8954/ju52vsmercedes03lk5.th.jpg (http://img244.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ju52vsmercedes03lk5.jpg) http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/1564/ju52vsmercedes04la2.th.jpg (http://img340.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ju52vsmercedes04la2.jpg)


http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r295/cawimmer431/Ju52vsMercedes_0.jpg

Junkers Ju-52/3m
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r295/cawimmer431/Ju52vsMercedes_000.jpg

p1ngu666
02-27-2007, 09:07 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Stackhouse25th
02-27-2007, 09:26 AM
well what do you expect? it is german afterall.

cawimmer430
02-27-2007, 09:32 AM
Originally posted by Stackhouse25th:
well what do you expect? it is german afterall.

???

Marcel_Albert
02-27-2007, 10:14 AM
Originally posted by Stackhouse25th:
well what do you expect? it is german afterall.

nice cliché .. Best cars in the 30's were by far the American , French and English cars , from my memory , the Delage cars , Voisin , Hispano-Suiza , Hotchkiss , Citroen "forward traction" , Viva Grand sport of Renault , Panhard , Delahaye etc.. etc... among others . These were winning all the elegance contests and were the utmost symbols of quality and luxury at the time .

In the 50's , the Italians great stylist have the nod producing outstanding cars too (ie Maserati SM , Ferrari 212 ) along many other sublime cars . My favourite of the 50's is the coupé DS though .


German made good cars by then but not the best . Today they have high quality car-makers and specialized in luxury models but still affordable for the masses like Mercedes and BMW (as opposed to true luxury cars for the elite like Bugatti , Aston Martin , Rolls Royce , Ferrari etc.. ) , awesome cars , my father had an Audi back then and switched to a Peugeot 406 Coupé , two great cars for cruising in the countryside . I hope one day i'll can afford an Alfa Romeo http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Bewolf
02-27-2007, 10:53 AM
why can't I shed the feeling we have a guy with some minority complexes here, considering all the posts lately? =)

Marcel_Albert
02-27-2007, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by Bewolf:
why can't I shed the feeling we have a guy with some minority complexes here, considering all the posts lately? =)

You will beat me with experience , but one should ground his claims when posting to flame an individual http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

My post was merely informative and illustrating the interrogation mark of poster Cawimmer just above me .

If you build your own cars for more than a century , the finest tanks , planes ,jets , missile, rockets etc.. and know well your own history of these last 10 centuries , it's a good cure for inferiority complex you know .

Lack of it doesn't cure from antipathy though , i can notice .

MM-Zorin
02-27-2007, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by Marcel_Albert:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stackhouse25th:
well what do you expect? it is german afterall.

nice cliché .. Best cars in the 30's were by far the American , French and English cars , from my memory , the Delage cars , Voisin , Hispano-Suiza , Hotchkiss , Citroen "forward traction" , Viva Grand sport of Renault , Panhard , Delahaye etc.. etc... among others . These were winning all the elegance contests and were the utmost symbols of quality and luxury at the time .

In the 50's , the Italians great stylist have the nod producing outstanding cars too (ie Maserati SM , Ferrari 212 ) along many other sublime cars . My favourite of the 50's is the coupé DS though .


German made good cars by then but not the best . Today they have high quality car-makers and specialized in luxury models but still affordable for the masses like Mercedes and BMW (as opposed to true luxury cars for the elite like Bugatti , Aston Martin , Rolls Royce , Ferrari etc.. ) , awesome cars , my father had an Audi back then and switched to a Peugeot 406 Coupé , two great cars for cruising in the countryside . I hope one day i'll can afford an Alfa Romeo http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

1. You get mixed up with 20s and 30s. Most of them had died or were going down the drain at the start of the 30s. Especially the french ones.

2. Early 30s, there was nothing that could compete with the Mercedes 770K or Maybach DS 8 Zeppelin. They were so expensive that they never were such a common side like a Phantom I or II...

3. During the 30s there were the 540k Spezial Roadster, Horch 855, Mayback SW 38 only to name a few. All of them exceed the prices of any other luxury car of their time at todays auctions http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

4. And after the war everyone wanted a 300SL Gullwing and only a few could ever afford a 600, which cost a multiple o the most expensive Rolls Royce. It stayed in production for nearly 20 years cause there was simply nothing that could compete with it.

Conclusion: Better get your opinion right http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

On a side note: The Duesenberg cars, the best the americans had during that period, were built and constructed by two german brothers. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Marcel_Albert
02-27-2007, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by MM-Zorin:
3. During the 30s there were the 540k Spezial Roadster, Horch 855, Mayback SW 38 only to name a few. All of them exceed the prices of any other luxury car of their time at todays auctions http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


Really ? didn't know this , probably because they are less of it , anything rarer is more expensive , good to learn thanks , all i said was from the top of my head , i didn't take the time to search google or an encyclopedia to verify it .

Next time i will though if there is a next time .

MM-Zorin
02-27-2007, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by Marcel_Albert:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MM-Zorin:
3. During the 30s there were the 540k Spezial Roadster, Horch 855, Mayback SW 38 only to name a few. All of them exceed the prices of any other luxury car of their time at todays auctions http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


Really ? didn't know this , probably because they are less of it , anything rarer is more expensive , good to learn thanks , all i said was from the top of my head , i didn't take the time to search google or an encyclopedia to verify it .

Next time i will though if there is a next time . </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Didn't need an encyclopedia or google for that. I only know my history to ground my claims, that is all http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Marcel_Albert
02-27-2007, 11:46 AM
Yep and you made a good point mate , i didn't know about the Mayback , i knew the 770k of Mercedes because it was the car of Hitler , but i thought it was a car made during the 40's , but fair point , it is always interesting to learn things and you posted with a friendly and informative tone .

People who make informative quality post like Blutarski , Hyperion or Seafire among others are the reason why i like to come in these boards , and when i post , it's for discussing and exchange knowledge ,and i thank you for that and friendly tone , even though i'm still convinced that "anything German must be necessarily superior " is untrue like it was suggested initially by the post i quoted , cheers http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

MM-Zorin
02-27-2007, 12:18 PM
To proclaim a "necessary superiority" of any country is simply rude and only attest a very simple mind, IMO.

And yes, you are correct about the 770 being Hitlers car, beside others, as well as of the German and Japanese Emperor.

There were only 205 770K build from 1930-1943(first and second series) whereas the RR Phantom II, the top of the line RR, already exceeded the mark of 1500 units during its time of production (1929-1935). Simply because of the difference in price.

JtD
02-27-2007, 01:05 PM
Afaik, Mercedes Banz did totally dominate the Grand Prix races in the second half of the 1930ies.

cawimmer430
02-27-2007, 01:22 PM
The Germans made some pretty good cars in the 1930s and Mercedes-Benz above all dominated Kompressor technology.

Check this out! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

1934-1939 Mercedes-Benz 500K "Spezial Roadster": One of my pre-war favorites! This was Mercedes' "CLS-Class" of the 1930s with an extra touch of sex appeal. There were 8 different body styles available for this model. Under the hood was a 5018cc straight-8 engine that N/A produced 100-horsepower. When the supercharger was engaged, the engine produced 160-horsepower and was able to bring the car to 160 km/h (100 mph). 342 total were produced. Back in the 1930s, you could buy one for 28,000 Reichsmarks which today would be just under Euros 100,000!

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i31/cawimmer430/SMALL_06.jpg

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i31/cawimmer430/SMALL_07.jpg

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i31/cawimmer430/SMALL_08.jpg

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i31/cawimmer430/SMALL_09.jpg


And here was the Nazi party's favorite limo. This is a 1937 Mercedes-Benz 770 "Großer Mercedes" which used a 7655cc straight-8 engine with Kompressor technology. Some versions could pump out over 250-horsepower, a lot in those days for a limousine.

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i31/cawimmer430/SMALL_13.jpg


The 1936-1939 Mercedes-Benz 540K was the more powerful successor to the 500K. It featured a bored out 5401cc straight-8 with 115-horsepower (N/A) or 180-hp (with the Kompressor engaged). Top speed was now 170 km/h (106 mph). A total of 419 were built. Still a beautiful car, despite the color scheme not stopping you dead in your tracks like the red 500K.

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i31/cawimmer430/SMALL_14.jpg

MEGILE
02-27-2007, 01:37 PM
I really dig those old mercs.

Think I had a model of one as a kid

Abbuzze
02-27-2007, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by cawimmer430:
Back in the 1930s, you could buy one for 28,000 Reichsmarks which today would be just under Euros 100,000!

Calculated this and 28,000 Reichsmark in 1930 has the value of even ~187,250 Euro today http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

jannaspookie
02-27-2007, 01:57 PM
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r8/jannaspookie/526802.jpg

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r8/jannaspookie/BMW328014.jpg

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r8/jannaspookie/1938_BMW_328MMRoadster1.jpg

BMW 328 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif I believe I read somewhere that the famous (and stunning) Jaguar XK120 was styled after the BMW 328 Mile Miglia racers (they certainly look like it).

Bewolf
02-27-2007, 02:20 PM
See, Marcel, if you take a look at all these pics, and then reread what you wrote in your initial post you will see where my remark came from.

KIMURA
02-27-2007, 02:32 PM
That butt is sexy - a Leckerli. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i31/cawimmer430/SMALL_09.jpg

PFflyer
02-27-2007, 02:50 PM
Here is my 1968 Mercedes 300sel 6.3liter, the fastest one ever built! I just have to clean it up a bit when the snow melts a bit...

http://img390.imageshack.us/img390/8876/300seldbb3.jpg

Marcel_Albert
02-27-2007, 03:04 PM
Originally posted by Bewolf:
See, Marcel, if you take a look at all these pics, and then reread what you wrote in your initial post you will see where my remark came from.

No i don't see as other countries could make equally outstanding cars too , but i really appreciate this pics of German cars , the BMW is simply magnificent .

This said i stand corrected by Zorin , i didn't know about the Maybach , 770k , and learnt something , but my intitial post was merely intended to answer the suggestion that anything German must be superior , and as said Zorin , it's quite irrespectful to say that , and i thought your attack was not kind .

I found some nice photos too :

http://www.madle.org/dela135mFuF37.jpg

1937 Delahaye 135M Figoni & Falaschi 2 Seater Roadster
Ex "Maharajah of Jahpar"
2nd of class
Most Elegant Interior
Winner Meguiar's Best in the World Trophy



http://www.madle.org/dela135msFuF38.jpg
1938 Delahaye 135MS Figoni & Falaschi Aerodynamique Coupé


http://www.madle.org/ar6c25sstourcab39.jpg
1939 Alfa Romeo 6C 2500SS Touring Cabriolet



http://www.madle.org/ar6c25bmm39.jpg
1939 Alfa Romeo 6C 2500B MM Touring Berlinetta
1st of class
Most Elegant Italian Car
Winner Best of 2002 show

http://www.linternaute.com/auto/diaporama/delahaye-retrospective/images/1-delahaye-type135ms-1937.jpg http://www.corvetteclubfrance.com/galerie/2006/retromobile/image/delage%20stand%20vuitton.jpg
Delage 1937
http://www.coffeedrome.com/images/bobpebble/delage.jpg
http://www.coffeedrome.com/images/bobpebble/black2.jpg
Rolls Royce Phantom

http://www.coffeedrome.com/images/bobpebble/beauty1.jpg
Bugatti Type 57

http://www.coffeedrome.com/images/bobpebble/muss2.jpg
Alfa Romeo Pescara (car of Benito Mussolini )

Monty_Thrud
02-27-2007, 03:54 PM
I love these old cars, loads of style and character, 1930s,40s,50s,60s, golden era of cars, 70,s,80s,90s, fugly.

MM-Zorin
02-27-2007, 07:03 PM
Musso's car:

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/860/al***b1.jpg

The one Hitler gave to Eva Braun:

http://mirbach.de/autos/1914/2_675.jpg

Easy to say who had the better car http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Badsight-
02-27-2007, 09:19 PM
Originally posted by Marcel_Albert:
my father had an Audi back then and switched to a Peugeot 406 Coupé , two great cars for cruising in the countryside . one of those 2 brands builds the top-rated engine (by engine designers) for the last 4 years

"top-rated" as in best overall design that best achieves the design goals . that same brand has dominated Le Mans outright wins for the last 6 years

most successfull brand at Le Mans ? : Porsche

most dominant makes in Formula one during the 1930's ? : Auto Union & Mercedes

you strike me as a knee jerk poster "omg - someone is praising German stuff!!!"

Bewolf
02-28-2007, 12:47 AM
Just to throw that in, Auto Union is Audi nowadays. Just a change of name there

cawimmer430
02-28-2007, 01:24 AM
Just to make one thing clear, I didn't post this article with the intention of praising "German technology". I posted this here because I thought people would be interested first and foremost in the Ju-52 (this is an A/C forum after all). http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Second, I thought this was an interesting comparison. A slow airplane vs a fast car. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Surprised no one has commented on the Ju-52... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

cawimmer430
02-28-2007, 01:25 AM
Originally posted by PFflyer:
Here is my 1968 Mercedes 300sel 6.3liter, the fastest one ever built! I just have to clean it up a bit when the snow melts a bit...

http://img390.imageshack.us/img390/8876/300seldbb3.jpg

Gorgeous car. I love those W108's. You still see lots of them around where I live. They're usually entry-level 250S's or 280S's. Rarely do you see a fuel-injeced SE model or an SEL. Sexy ride there. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

PFflyer
02-28-2007, 06:51 AM
The thread starter reminds me of how T.E. Lawrence raced a Bristol Fighter on his Brough Superior motorcycle.
The story of this is in Chapter 16 of "The Mint", which is a collection of things he wrote about his service in the RAF.

I WILL praise german engineering, because there is no doubt they were as good as any there were or are.

If you look at my 1968 300sel, and compare it to what Detroit had to offer the same year, it makes them look like a joke. Detroit made cars to make money, but the 300sel, and most of the stuff that came out of germany in the 20th century was mechanical art.
The cameras, cars, watches, the guns and aircraft. If the germans made something, they made it the best they could, not like much of the world where they make things no better than they have to be to sell to the average sucker/consumer.

1968 300sel 6.3:

Overhead cam engine with aluminum cylinder heads and Bosch mechanical fuel injection. Forged steel crankshaft and rods. 9:1 compression ratio. Top speed 140mph.

Four speed automatic transmission.

Independent front AND rear suspension with four-wheel disk brakes and VR speed-rated tires. Front and rear sway bars, self-leveling air suspension.

Air conditioning, power windows, AM/FM radio with retractable antenna.

Wow.

ViktorViktor
02-28-2007, 07:12 AM
It's a well-known fact that the Citroen "forward traction" autos could turn more sharply than the Mercedes-Benz type SS.

I have the charts somewhere . . .

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

luftluuver
02-28-2007, 07:28 AM
What was the common auto that the common German drove pre-war?

Marcel_Albert
02-28-2007, 08:58 AM
Originally posted by Badsight-:
one of those 2 brands builds the top-rated engine (by engine designers) for the last 4 years

Renault in Formula 1 , Peugeot/Citroen in Rallye and BMW V10 for the best engine ?

Anyhow , you want to turn into an opposition , a post of mine that was intended to underline like Catwimmer did with an interrogation mark , we were surprised about that Neo Nazi suggestion that anything German must be superior , which is wrong as agreed Zorin .


Originally posted by Badsight-:
"top-rated" as in best overall design that best achieves the design goals . that same brand has dominated Le Mans outright wins for the last 6 years
most successfull brand at Le Mans ? : Porsche

Again , this is very far from the 20/30's if you ask me , but an attempt of your to stir up the shiite .

Germany and France are closed allie since 50 years , and nobody is comparing teir technological prowess , we work together (Airbus , EADS ..) , we send our rockets in the spaces alone , produce some of the best tanks , jets , helicopters , missiles , radar , etc... it's a meaningless discussion to go this way , no need to oppose them really , that wasnt the aim .

Again , i made it 3 times clear , but some need a repeat , my informative post based on own memory and culture that was corrected by Zorin
was intended to answer the Neo Nazi suggestion that anything German must be superior , if you think so , ok tell me , but if you don't , no need to insult nor try to opposed two countries that have a special friendship since half a century .

My point was to show that at that time , the Italian , French , British and Americans car manufacturer were producing truly outstanding luxury cars and patents and had loads of legendary car manufacturers , only a handful survived .


Originally posted by Badsight-:
most dominant makes in Formula one during the 1930's ? : Auto Union & Mercedes

That is at the end of the 30's , in the 20's it was Buggatti , in the early 30's Alfa Romeo was something , check out Louis Chiron , a famous pilot that won prizes with Alfa Romeo , then he moved with Mercedes in 1936 , in the cars that were called here "Silver Arrows" because Germans let their car bare metal to save weight .


Originally posted by Badsight-:
r "omg - someone is praising German stuff!!!"

I didn't quote your insults , my grand-father was living in Essen , Germany in the 30's and guess who he married .... so better not assume bad intentions of somebody but rather correct him with class and respect .



Look some Great cars other manufacturers were doing , they were by no means inferior , yes they were not German , but other countries could make the finest cars too , "anything German must be better " got me to post , because Neo Nazi is sadly getting popular across Europe and if you don't try to answer , guys assume it's right .


British Jaguar :

http://www.classiccarclub.org/images/1936%20SS%20Jaguar.jpg

Peugeot Coupé :
http://www.1motormart.com/gallery/38peug01.jpg

Here again , another winning contest Delahaye :
http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/9161/640184concours03edp9.jpg

another winner .. Delahaye , too bad we don't see the interior and quality finish :
http://www.classicdriver.de/upload/images/reportagen/week_51_00_02/car_pop01.jpg

alert_1
02-28-2007, 09:05 AM
Mercedes is not bad by any means but my favorite 30' car is something else
http://www.supercars.net/cars/2705.html
Bugatti rules!

Bewolf
02-28-2007, 09:30 AM
Marcel, nobody here said that german stuff was "superior". It's initial post was just a nice report about the Ju52 and the Mercedes there. Nothing wrong with that until you popped in with that odd urge to prove that others build better stuff. This was not a comparison thread until you started it. On top of it now you blame ppl of having "neo nazi" attitudes. And then you wonder about the reactions.

I'd sincerly advise you to drop it. Nobody doubts that other countries built beautiful cars and general machinery, too. But you make it as if german stuff is completly overrated and subpar. Which, frankly, is not the case.

If you don't mind, just post more fotos of those beautiful italian, french and british cars for us to honestly admire, just do not write anything anymore. Everybody will be a lot happier.

p1ngu666
02-28-2007, 10:07 AM
theres very little to stop any nationality from producing awsome cars, or anything else for that matter.

plus some cars arent photogenic, like the new jaguar and aston martins. in the flesh there http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif utterly utterly beautiful.

besides, german stuff isnt automatical uber (or naff), as my fractured waterblock on my desk will show http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

70s and 80s wherent all bad, you got lambos and ferrari f40 and plenty of others http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Marcel_Albert
02-28-2007, 10:07 AM
Originally posted by Bewolf:
Marcel, nobody here said that german stuff was "superior". It's initial post was just a nice report about the Ju52 and the Mercedes there.
Nope , this is a blatent lie . The intial post was of Catwimmer , who made a Great post and agrees with me btw .

Catwimmer quoted Stackhouse "It's normal , it's German" , and put an interrogation mark as he didn't agree with this , so don't lie , anyone can read back page 1 .

Then i posted , from own memory , to show that the suggestion which is actually , believe it or not , a Neo-Nazi cliche that "Aryan" stuff must be better ,because at the time , the French , Italian and British were producing equally outstanding cars .

From my own memory i thought they were even better cars , but Zorin reminded me that it is not true which i acknowledged .

Your contribution was only a personal attack , , and i see you are doing one more .


Originally posted by Bewolf:But you make it as if german stuff is completly overrated and subpar. Which, frankly, is not the case.
Another BS . No i make it like Zorin agreed , that German traidtionally always built great cars especially in the 30's where it was hastily encouraged by the State in place , but the suggestion that anything German is superior got me and Catwimmer posting for obvious reasons .
The intend was just to show that other could make awesome cars too


Originally posted by Bewolf:Everybody will be a lot happier.
I think everybody would be a lot happier if less people like you came here to post just for purely flaming individuals , if they rather post informative posts , acted with class and respect and made their point , this will not be called the zoo .

Read back my posts and the reason i come here and perhaps get a life outside your bedroom and cpu setup , and you 'll notice that what i did answer is actually important , as this neo nazi rethoric is getting some ground in Europe and my own country and this is just one aspect of it that it is important to answer .

Bewolf
02-28-2007, 10:40 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

from this point on I refer to my sig and let it go.

carguy_
02-28-2007, 04:15 PM
^It looks a bit as if it was badly treaten,PFflyer.GL fixing it up to its original condition.I know I like all of 70-80 Mercedes limos.

My grandpa had one of those back in the late eighties.A weak Diesel mind you but what a car in a socialistic,poor country that was!It took like 10mins to get it to go 160km/h but it wasn`t too loud or harsh on the suspension.

One of my last memories with grandpa are attached to the car...

Badsight-
02-28-2007, 09:42 PM
Originally posted by Bewolf:
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

from this point on I refer to my sig and let it go. exactly ^

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif for marcel aldork

PFflyer
02-28-2007, 09:44 PM
Yes it was badly treated by the previous owner, they knew nothing about the car or how to maintain it, and they parked it under a tree and let it sit for four years.

I found it riding a bicycle around my area and saw it sitting in a backyard, forlorn. I inquired and they sold it to me for $750 just a few weeks ago. I am going to clean it, paint it, and tune up the engine and suspension and drive it this summer.

DB made the 300sel6.3 from 1968 to 1972, total production was only 6500 those five years, and it's retail price averaged around $15,000 back then. What is that in 2007 dollars?

It is a h ell of a car, especially for it's day, a real classic. I can't believe I found a car like this sitting being neglected.

Here is a web-link to great information on the car: http://www.m-100.cc/6point3/index.html
This is my first non-american car, and my first extra car I have owned in twenty years. The more I read about the car, the more I am convinced it is one of the greatest road cars ever sold to the public.

S!

Bewolf
03-01-2007, 12:41 AM
Link is dead, PFflyer.

But agreed. My grandparents used to drive that car. I have some very fond memories there.

cawimmer430
03-01-2007, 02:21 AM
Originally posted by Marcel_Albert:

German traidtionally always built great cars especially in the 30's where it was hastily encouraged by the State in place



This is actually incorrect. The Nazi party had no real power over carmakers prior to 1933 when they took power in Germany.

In the case of Mercedes-Benz, they've always STRIVED to buiild fine cars even before the 1930s without state encouragement. This Type SS, which came out in the late 1920s, is one such example.

Other famous and legendary Mercedes from the 1920s and early 1930s (pre-Nazi days) include the SSK and SSKL as well as the 1930 Mercedes 770 Grosser Mercedes (Emperor Hirohitho of Japan ordered 6 of these!).

And BTW, I am not a Neo Nazi. Posting this article, which reminisces about old German technology from the 1930s, doesn't make me a Nazi. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif

cawimmer430
03-01-2007, 02:48 AM
Originally posted by luftluuver:
What was the common auto that the common German drove pre-war?

Ordinary Germans drove cars from Ford, DKW, Opel, Adler, Hanomag and Wanderer. Only the wealthy drove Mercedes, BMW, Horch, Maybach and Auto Union. Note that Opel in those days was a supplier of both luxury and mainstream cars. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


Here are some "ordinary German cars".

1933 Wanderer W22
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r295/cawimmer431/OTHER%20FORUMS/1933WandererW22_01copy.jpg

1934 Adler Trumpf Junior
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r295/cawimmer431/OTHER%20FORUMS/1934AdlerTrumpfJunior_01copy.jpg

1934 Hanomag Rekord
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r295/cawimmer431/OTHER%20FORUMS/1934HanomagRekord_01copy.jpg

1935 Ford Eifel Limousine
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r295/cawimmer431/OTHER%20FORUMS/1935FordEifelLimousine_01copy.jpg

1935 Opel Olympia
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r295/cawimmer431/OTHER%20FORUMS/1935OpelOlympia_01copy.jpg

1936 DKW Front Luxus (first German car with FWD)
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r295/cawimmer431/OTHER%20FORUMS/1936-1937DKWFrontLuxus_01copy.jpg

1936 Wanderer W25 K Sportwagen
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r295/cawimmer431/OTHER%20FORUMS/1936WandererW25KSportwagen_01copy.jpg

1937 Ford Eifel Roadster
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r295/cawimmer431/OTHER%20FORUMS/1937-1939FordEifelRoadster_01copy.jpg

1937 Adler 2.5
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r295/cawimmer431/OTHER%20FORUMS/1937Adler2.jpg

1937 BMW 327
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r295/cawimmer431/OTHER%20FORUMS/1937BMW327_01copy.jpg

1937 DKW Meisterklasse
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r295/cawimmer431/OTHER%20FORUMS/1937DKWMeisterklasse_01copy.jpg

1937 Opel Kadett
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r295/cawimmer431/OTHER%20FORUMS/1937OpelKadett_01copy.jpg

1937 Wanderer W24
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r295/cawimmer431/OTHER%20FORUMS/1937WandererW24_01copy.jpg

1937 Wanderer W
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r295/cawimmer431/OTHER%20FORUMS/1937WandererW_01copy.jpg

1938 Horch 830BL
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r295/cawimmer431/OTHER%20FORUMS/1938Horch830BLWoody_01copy.jpg

1938 Opel Admiral
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r295/cawimmer431/OTHER%20FORUMS/1938OpelAdmiral_01copy.jpg

1938 Opel Kapitän
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r295/cawimmer431/OTHER%20FORUMS/1938OpelKapitaen_01copy.jpg

Bewolf
03-01-2007, 03:48 AM
Ok, this is complete news to me there, going to the common cars from that era. Some beautiful pieces there. Interestingly I already see some forerunners of the later to come "all chassis no fender" style cars. I thought that was a mainly american development during the 40ies. One never learns out.

KingKongRetard
03-01-2007, 04:01 AM
forget everything. this is the best car

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/elvis.payne/downloads/wpaper/BN11024.jpg

Marcel_Albert
03-01-2007, 06:41 AM
Originally posted by cawimmer430:
[b]This is actually incorrect. The Nazi party had no real power over carmakers prior to 1933 when they took power in Germany.

never said it had http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Said it was ENCOURAGED by the State , good reading , for the rest re-read , i actually posted to illustrate your interrogation mark in post #3 page 1 , and then answer personal attack , nothing else :


The next day, May 2, 1934, after practicing his Sieg Heil in front of a mirror, Mooney and two other senior executives from General Motors and its German division, Adam Opel A.G., went to meet Hitler in his Chancellery office. Waiting with Hitler would be Nazi Party stalwart Joachim von Ribbentrop, who would later become foreign minister, and Reich economic adviser Wilhelm Keppler.

As Mooney traversed the long approach to Hitler's desk, he began to pump his arm in a stern-faced Sieg Heil. But the Fuhrer surprised him by getting up from his desk and meeting Mooney halfway, not with a salute but a businesslike handshake.

This was, after all, a meeting about business -- one of many contacts between the Nazis and GM officials that are spotlighted in this multipart JTA investigation that scoured and re-examined thousands of pages of little-known and restricted Nazi-era and New Deal-era documents

This documentation and other evidence reveal that GM and Opel were eager, willing and indispensable cogs in the Third Reich's rearmament juggernaut, a rearmament that, as many feared during the 1930s, would enable Hitler to conquer Europe and destroy millions of lives. The documentation also reveals that while General Motors was mobilizing the Third Reich and cooperating within Germany with Hitler's Nazi revolution and economic recovery, GM and its president, Alfred P. Sloan, were undermining the New Deal of President Franklin D. Roosevelt and undermining America's electric mass transit, and in doing so, were helping addict the United States to oil.

For GM's part, the company has repeatedly declined to comment when approached by this reporter. It has also steadfastly denied for decades -- even in the halls of Congress -- that it actively assisted the Nazi war effort or that it simultaneously subverted mass transit in the United States. It has also argued that its subsidiary was seized by the Reich during the war. The company even sponsored an eminent historian to investigate, and he later in his own book disputed many earlier findings about GM's complicity with the Nazis. In that book, he concluded that assertions that GM had collaborated with the Nazis, even after the United States and Germany were at war, "have proved groundless."

A Fascination With Four Wheels

Hitler knew that the biggest auto and truck manufacturer in Germany was not Daimler or any other German carmaker. The biggest automotive manufacturer in Germany -- indeed in all of Europe -- was General Motors, which since 1929 had owned and operated the long-time German firm, Opel. GM's Opel, infused with millions in GM cash and assembly-line know-how, produced some 40 percent of the vehicles in Germany and about 65 percent of its exports. Indeed, Opel dominated Germany's auto industry.

Impressive production statistics aside, the Fuhrer was fascinated with every aspect of the automobile, its history, its inherent liberating appeal and, of course, its application as a weapon of war. While German automotive engineers were famous for their engineering innovations, the lack of ready petroleum supplies and gas stations in Germany, coupled with the nation's massive Depression unemployment, kept autos out of reach for the common man in Nazi Germany. In 1928, just before the Depression hit, one in five Americans owned a car, while in Germany, ownership was one in 134.

In fact, just two months before Mooney's meeting at the Chancellery, Hitler had commented at the Berlin International Automobile and Motor Cycle Show: "It can only be said with profound sadness that, in the present age of civilization, the ordinary, hard-working citizen is still unable to afford a car, a means of up-to-date transport and a source of enjoyment in the leisure hours."

Even if few Germans could afford cars -- GM or otherwise -- the company did provide many in the Third Reich with jobs. Hitler was keenly aware that GM, unlike German carmakers, used mass production techniques pioneered in Detroit, so-called "Fordism" or "American production."

As the May 2, 1934, Chancellery meeting progressed, Hitler thanked Mooney and GM for being a major employer -- some 17,000 jobs -- in a Germany where Nazi success hinged on re-employment. Moreover, since Opel was responsible for some 65 percent of auto exports, the company also earned the foreign currency the Reich desperately needed to purchase raw materials for re-employment, as well as for the regime's crash rearmament program. Now, as Hitler embarked on a massive, threatening rearmament program, GM was in a position to make Germany's military a powerful, modern and motorized marvel.

The Quest for the "People's Car"

During the meeting with Mooney, Hitler estimated that if Germany were to emulate American ratios, the Reich should possess some 12 million cars. But, Hitler added, 3 million cars was a more realistic target under the circumstances. Even this would be a vast improvement over the 104,000 vehicles manufactured in Germany in 1932.

Mooney told Hitler that GM was willing to mass produce a cheap car, costing just 1,400 marks, with the mass appeal of Henry Ford's Model T, if the Nazi regime could guarantee 100,000 car sales annually, issue a decree limiting dealer commissions and control the price of raw materials. Many automotive concerns were vying for the chance to build Hitler's dream, a people's car or "volkswagen," but GM was convinced that it alone possessed the proven production know-how. An excited Hitler showered his GM guests with many questions. Would the cost of garaging a car be prohibitive for the average man? Could vehicles parked outdoors be damaged by the elements?

Mooney answered that the same vehicle built to withstand wind, dust and rain at 40-60 mph could stand up to overnight exposure outdoors. To promote automobile ownership, Hitler even promised something as trivial as legalized street parking.

Of course, Hitler had already committed the Reich to expedite completion of the world's first transnational network of auto highways, the Autobahn. Now, to further promote motorcar proliferation, Hitler suggested to Mooney that the German government could also reduce gasoline prices and gasoline taxes. Hitler even asked if Opel could advise him how to prudently reduce car insurance rates, thus lowering overall operating costs for average Germans.

The conference in Hitler's Chancellery office, originally scheduled for a quarter hour, stretched to 90 minutes.

cawimmer430
03-02-2007, 04:15 AM
Originally posted by Marcel_Albert:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by cawimmer430:
[b]This is actually incorrect. The Nazi party had no real power over carmakers prior to 1933 when they took power in Germany.

never said it had http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Said it was ENCOURAGED by the State , good reading , for the rest re-read , i actually posted to illustrate your interrogation mark in post #3 page 1 , and then answer personal attack , nothing else :
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was encouraged by the state, but this was in 1933 and afterwards. Prior to that date, it wasn't.

x6BL_Brando
03-02-2007, 04:44 AM
It's interesting to note that the "common" car as driven in the Thirties, bears little resemblance to what would be thought of as common in the post-war years. Far fewer citizens of any European country could afford the luxury of car-ownership, and it was the age of the motorcycle as far as the working-classes were concerned.

Little wonder really, when you consider that most of the beautiful examples shown above were hand-built, with the minimum of mass-production methods ( a la Henry Ford) used. Coach-work, upholstery, paint & so on took a lot of skill - hence the exorbitant pricing that excluded most of the population from ownership.

It's sad to see this discussion degenerate into a flame about politics that disregards the achievements of the mechanics & engineers of all the countries involved, especially the Germans. As an English owner of a German motorbike I'm very happy to ride a well-engineered machine that has obviously been built with pride and enthusiasm. I don't resent the fact that it comes from a country that was my forefathers' enemy. Instead I admire the development of a safe & reliable vehicle. Chauvinism just doesn't come into it.

B.