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View Full Version : Navigation in Full Real, closed cockpit servers, no map icons



Nokinja
07-21-2008, 11:49 AM
Hi folks,

I've recently made the switch from flying on open cockpit servers to full real, closed cockpit servers since I've recently managed to get FreeTrack running smoothly. No more lost targets for me! (even though I look foolish in my home made 6DOF LED hat)

Now I'm running into a problem I can't seem to find an answer for. The server I'm playing on (Warbirds of Prey) has no icons or map markers which requires true navigation. Now, I don't mind doing this but I can't seem to find out how the navigation works. I know there are 360 degrees, 0 being north, 90 being east, 180 being south and 270 being west, but how can I find out where I am in relation to, say, my own airfield.

Let's say I'm in a fight and get damaged and want to return to base, how can I find out where the airfield is? After swooping and turning in a firefight, it's near impossible to keep my bearings.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[wAsd]noki

RockyAlexander
07-21-2008, 12:03 PM
Compare land features to your in-game map.

KRISTORF
07-21-2008, 12:05 PM
Remember the heading you flew out on and do a reciprical, takes you roughly back to a start point, then look for features (river bends, lakes, towns etc)

Nokinja
07-21-2008, 12:11 PM
I do currently look for land features (lakes, rivers, shorelines, etc) but if you're over the ocean that's a bust.

Is there any way to set waypoints and follow them via the waypoint guage in the cockpit?

KRISTORF
07-21-2008, 12:46 PM
Only if you make the mission (as far as I recall), otherwise its dead reconing I am afraid

K_Freddie
07-21-2008, 01:18 PM
'Shoot the sun' old boy...
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Nokinja
07-21-2008, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by K_Freddie:
'Shoot the sun' old boy...
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Like, with a sextant? I'm not sure what you mean. Can you elaborate?

Schutze_S
07-21-2008, 01:48 PM
He's having a bubble bath = Laugh

Navigation is a skill that brings full emersion into this sim..

So your in a combat zone get hit and need to get the hell outta dodge.

The cheap way out is to hit Tab key and scroll through menue and ask for heading home.

One of the joys I find is looking at your surroundings and establishing where you are on the map.

Getting home alone is a real buzz.Just takes practice.

Welcome to full switch. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

PS Try to keep a metal note of where you are from your home base ie I flew south hmm home base must be errm....Situational awareness.

DuckyFluff
07-21-2008, 01:59 PM
I cant understand why you guys have to make it sounds difficult(its not).

The first thing to do is ask ground control for a vector to base, follow that vector and then keep checking the map to see if you can recognise rivers/forests/towns, check the vector with ground control every few minutes and eventually you will either see your base or recognise where you are on the map.

Nokinja
07-21-2008, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by Schutze_S:

The cheap way out is to hit Tab key and scroll through menue and ask for heading home.

Unfortunately, it seems that the radio comms are disabled on the WoP servers. I haven't been able to get anything with Tab, unless I accidentally unbound the function.


Originally posted by Schutze_S:
Welcome to full switch. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Thanks, I like it much, much more than open 'pits. Hopefully I can get better at mentally tracking my location.

rnzoli
07-21-2008, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by Nokinja:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Schutze_S:

The cheap way out is to hit Tab key and scroll through menue and ask for heading home.

Unfortunately, it seems that the radio comms are disabled on the WoP servers. I haven't been able to get anything with Tab, unless I accidentally unbound the function.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is only working in co-op mode or single player. AFAIK AI commands are NOT working on dogfight servers at all.

Perhaps the dummiest navigation is to see, where your buddies are arriving to the combat scene and return to your carrier/island that way http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Nokinja
07-21-2008, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by rnzoli:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nokinja:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Schutze_S:

The cheap way out is to hit Tab key and scroll through menue and ask for heading home.

Unfortunately, it seems that the radio comms are disabled on the WoP servers. I haven't been able to get anything with Tab, unless I accidentally unbound the function.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is only working in co-op mode or single player. AFAIK AI commands are NOT working on dogfight servers at all.

Perhaps the dummiest navigation is to see, where your buddies are arriving to the combat scene and return to your carrier/island that way http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Alright, so that explains why ground control is AWOL. I'll keep relying on surroundings and my brain.

Thanks!

WTE_Galway
07-21-2008, 05:47 PM
I don't fly much anymore and have not been online for years but spent a fair bit of time in full real servers back in the day.

Basically you need to always know where you are.

This requires you to keep track of two things.

1. Which way you went.

2. How far you went.


For 1) this means noting the bearings you are flying at and any major landmarks you pass over. If possible you should print out any of the maps you are likely to fly on and laminate them so you can plot a course.

Knowing how far you went is harder however basically you can work out distance flown from flight time and speed.

Some people apparently use real life flight computers (a little gizmo like a circular slide rule)but a lot of the features you need those things for (temperature altitude etc etc) are not modeled in the sim.

Its simpler to work in IL2 map squares. A map square on the zoomed out maps is 10km across (1.4 km diagonally). Yes the squares are in metric and no there is not a map with miles on it.

A good speed to cruise at is 300 kmh because the numbers work nicely. If you fly at a constant 300 kmh you will travel 10km in 2 minutes.

Most planes have an in cockpit clock .. use it.

It helps navigation a LOT to fly straight and level for longish periods and use bearings that are easily translated and don't need a degree in trigonomety (ie fly at 090 not 084.5 )

soooo ... here is an example

Q: I leave base and fly roughly 270 for 6 minutes (by aircraft clock) at 300 kmh before turning to a heading of 180 and flying 4 more minutes and now I see a city below me ... which city is it on the map ?

A: It is the city roughly 3 squares west and 2 squares south of my home base on my printed map.


How do I get home ??? .. either backtrack or do some trig .. home base is at a bearing of TAN(3/2) or roughly 55 to 60 degrees at a distance of root(3^2 +2^2) * 10 which works out at 36 km.

Thus if I fly at roughly 55 degrees for 7 minutes at 300 kmh I will be near home.


(EDITED to correct MATH error)

Fireball_
07-21-2008, 06:58 PM
Very useful stuff Galway! I never thought about flying right angles to get where I need to be. Simplifies the math.

And speaking of math...I have just one quibble with your numbers. (Quibbling is what we do best on this forum. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )

If you're traveling 300 kmh, wouldn't that mean that you would travel 10 km in 2 minutes, instead of 3 minutes (1/30th of the distance in 1/30th of the time)?

Concept is still the same though.

WTE_Galway
07-21-2008, 07:15 PM
Originally posted by Fireball_:
Very useful stuff Galway! I never thought about flying right angles to get where I need to be. Simplifies the math.

And speaking of math...I have just one quibble with your numbers. (Quibbling is what we do best on this forum. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )

If you're traveling 300 kmh, wouldn't that mean that you would travel 10 km in 2 minutes, instead of 3 minutes (1/30th of the distance in 1/30th of the time)?

Concept is still the same though.


You are quite correct !!! it actually is 10km in 2 minute. So a map square in 2 minutes or roughly 3 minutes diagonally which may be where the confusion came from.

As I said its been many years since I flew online in full real servers and my memory is not what it used to be. Well spotted. I have edited the original post.

Bearcat99
07-21-2008, 08:49 PM
While I dont care for the full switch option, primarily because I just like externals & limited icons.. as far as navigation goes.. what I do when I do go full switch which is usually offline for Ss & Gs, is keep a note pad nearby and take notes along the way.. note airspeed, time & headings.. and any landmarks. I found that if you really want to navigate in full switch online or off, the best way to do it is to think in terms of.. If I don't keep track of where I am going , how long I am up, and how to get back, I will crash and probably die... it helped me to kee track of things... Also having printed copies of the maps helps.. You can get them @ M4T.

STENKA_69.GIAP
07-22-2008, 09:07 AM
There is a cunning plan that you can use but it's cheating.

From the moment you hit fly do not open your map. Work from notes or paper map.

Then when you come out of combat and need to get home open map.

The first time the map opens it is centred on the actual position of your plane.

If I catch any of you doing that in navigation training I'll have you shot.

Multimetal
07-22-2008, 12:05 PM
Just remember, real WW2 pilots got lost all the time! British captured their first FW190 when the pilot thought he was landing in France, and American bombers bombed the wrong city more than once. Carrier based planes ran out of gas and ditched quite frequently too. 1940's navigation is a hard skill to learn!

PF_Coastie
07-22-2008, 04:43 PM
Some dogfight server scripts have a "home" feature built in. It may require energizing smoke for 3 seconds then doing a syntax something like: <home and the server will give you a heading home.

Perhaps you can go to the forums of your favorite server to inquire about this feature.

WTE_Galway
07-22-2008, 08:15 PM
Originally posted by Multimetal:
Just remember, real WW2 pilots got lost all the time! British captured their first FW190 when the pilot thought he was landing in France, and American bombers bombed the wrong city more than once. Carrier based planes ran out of gas and ditched quite frequently too. 1940's navigation is a hard skill to learn!

ha indeed.

I just read an account by an Australian pilot in BoB (as an aside aussies had the highest percentage casualty rate of all nationalties in BoB but I never found out why)who tells how he was congratulated and rewarded for having the "guts" to chase single handed a ju88 well out to sea even though he was short of fuel.

He had actually got lost and thought he was trying to catch a Blenheim which would eventually return to a RAF base and lead him to safety and did not realise he was trying to formate with a German bomber until he noticed the channel below him and turned back.

Needless to say he did not inform anyone at the time of the real reason for his "gutsy pursuit".

The same guy said something like "most of the time flying over Britain I had no idea where I was it all looked the same".

The desert was worse.

mike_espo
07-22-2008, 09:30 PM
The only full real server I know on HL is Zekes vs Wildcats....I remember when most of the servers on HL were full real...Now they are mostly arcades. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

WTE_Galway
07-22-2008, 11:43 PM
Originally posted by mike_espo:
The only full real server I know on HL is Zekes vs Wildcats....I remember when most of the servers on HL were full real...Now they are mostly arcades. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

I think most is a bit of exaggeration. But there was always a few to choose from and they often attracted the better more veteran pilots.

Maybe those guys have just got tired of the online circus (like I did) or moved on to co-ops and closed servers ?

xTHRUDx
07-23-2008, 12:05 AM
practice on the Slot map. it's huge and it fun navigating from island to island.

DaddyAck
07-23-2008, 01:57 AM
Originally posted by mike_espo:
The only full real server I know on HL is Zekes vs Wildcats....I remember when most of the servers on HL were full real...Now they are mostly arcades. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Nope, there is always spits Vs 109. Run by the same guys I believe. I usually can be found there along with others from my squadron.

K_Freddie
07-23-2008, 02:07 AM
Originally posted by Nokinja:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K_Freddie:
'Shoot the sun' old boy...
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Like, with a sextant? I'm not sure what you mean. Can you elaborate? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
No sextant.. Just the time of Day, sun angle, and yours or other object shadows (if you're low enough).
If it's overcast, general mission memory helps.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

M2morris
07-23-2008, 06:44 AM
Originally posted by Nokinja:
Hi folks,

I've recently made the switch from flying on open cockpit servers to full real, closed cockpit servers since I've recently managed to get FreeTrack running smoothly. No more lost targets for me! (even though I look foolish in my home made 6DOF LED hat)

Now I'm running into a problem I can't seem to find an answer for. The server I'm playing on (Warbirds of Prey) has no icons or map markers which requires true navigation. Now, I don't mind doing this but I can't seem to find out how the navigation works. I know there are 360 degrees, 0 being north, 90 being east, 180 being south and 270 being west, but how can I find out where I am in relation to, say, my own airfield.

Let's say I'm in a fight and get damaged and want to return to base, how can I find out where the airfield is? After swooping and turning in a firefight, it's near impossible to keep my bearings.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[wAsd]noki

If you don't want to hit the tab key and ask for directions to home base then you will need to navigate by terrain association and use of the compass.

Make note before take-off (do a map recon)
Know the azimuth you will be taking as you leave on your mission. Your back-aziumth will be your way home. That is 180* from your heading. You can call that your:
go to **** azimuth.
Remember that azimuth if you get in a bad situation and you just want to get home.
As you fly look at the terrain; rivers, hills etc. You cant navigate unless you know where you are.
Look at the map. find an unusual terrain feature and see if that is near you. Then there you are. Note the time of day, if its morning the sun is in the East. It will come to you.

If it doesnt; than you will join the league of non- navigators.
Nobody can ever find them.

willyvic
07-23-2008, 06:55 AM
Some good suggestions here. Another is to read the brief and study the map while in the "ready room". That should give you a general idea of area layout and direction to and from the action.

Note: "ready room" is a term used by my squaddies and I to designate the briefing screen.


WV.

Bearcat99
07-23-2008, 07:13 AM
Originally posted by mike_espo:
The only full real server I know on HL is Zekes vs Wildcats....I remember when most of the servers on HL were full real...Now they are mostly arcades. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

I dont know about all that... do you think that anything less than full switch is arcade? I don't... IMO a server that I would define as arcade is one in which the map icons are on and the fuel and/or ammo is set to unlimited and the rest of the FM CEM parameters are not lit... to me that defines what is arcade... externals & icons for various reasons are IMO something between arcade I full switch..

Hoep
07-23-2008, 07:41 AM
afaik the 2 servers by warbirdsofprey (spit-vs-109 and zeke-vs-wildcat) are the only so called "full-real" servers around on HL. Then it comes WarClouds, which has full CEM, no external, cockpit, but with icons, map icons and speedbar.
For what it worths, to me the full-real servers are the only ones that really give you the feeling, the chill, of being like a real combat flyier. The same limitations, the same difficulties. You gotta study the map very well, cause the navigation is completely manual...you have to pay a huge attention at what you shoot at (it's not always easy to tell a spit from a 109 during a fight unless you're very close)...
Map icons and icons are really usefull...and avoid the frustration that sometimes the full-real servers give me...usually, when i want to take a break or fly more relaxed i switch from spit-vs-109 and go to WC...

willyvic
07-23-2008, 07:53 AM
With no intention of hijacking the thread, I also enjoy the "full switch" severs. Z vs W and Spits vs 109s are my hangouts nowdays. However, I do occasionally appreciate a server that allows externals as I enjoy being able to watch the action after some hotshot has smoked me. To me, such severs are far from "arcade". They are just a bit looser on the settings in my mind.

Bottom line, each and everyone of us is entitiled to his/her opinions and likes/dislikes.

WV.

Nokinja
07-23-2008, 08:43 AM
Thanks everyone for the responses.

Since my post, i've become pretty adept at manual navigation. It's generally pretty simple to navigate to and from a target and home with a little practice. I did however print off a small compass rose with headings and their 180 degree opposites.


Originally posted by M2morris:
If you don't want to hit the tab key and ask for directions to home base then you will need to navigate by terrain association and use of the compass.

Unfortunately, groundcontrol doesn't work on Zekes vs Wildcats.

M2morris
07-23-2008, 09:17 AM
Originally posted by Nokinja:
Thanks everyone for the responses.

Since my post, i've become pretty adept at manual navigation. It's generally pretty simple to navigate to and from a target and home with a little practice. I did however print off a small compass rose with headings and their 180 degree opposites.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M2morris:
If you don't want to hit the tab key and ask for directions to home base then you will need to navigate by terrain association and use of the compass.

Unfortunately, groundcontrol doesn't work on Zekes vs Wildcats. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fly off line, with no enemy, and just practice navigating around in the most primative method.
Then there will be almost no way can ever get lost.

Hoep
07-23-2008, 10:15 AM
Open the map. look for rivers and roads which imho are the best points to be used to track your position. Whenever a road crosses a river look for it in the map. I tend to keep the map open most of the time in order to always know where i am

mike_espo
07-23-2008, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mike_espo:
The only full real server I know on HL is Zekes vs Wildcats....I remember when most of the servers on HL were full real...Now they are mostly arcades. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

I dont know about all that... do you think that anything less than full switch is arcade? I don't... IMO a server that I would define as arcade is one in which the map icons are on and the fuel and/or ammo is set to unlimited and the rest of the FM CEM parameters are not lit... to me that defines what is arcade... externals & icons for various reasons are IMO something between arcade I full switch.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did'nt mean that. I just see alot of servers on HL with open pits and minimap path, padlocks ect. I remember back years ago that most servers had only speedbar and limited icons.

imrtl
07-24-2008, 09:14 AM
Ok its been awhile since I played but on the map are the squares labeled just note which grid square your airfield is in before takeoff and then you can always fly back to it.
You might have to zoom your map out but there should be AK AM AL whatever across the top and numbers down the side.

so that will get you in the same grid square of your base.

of course flying reciprocal for same speed/time from contact area will work also.