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XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 11:24 AM
theres some major problems with .50 caliber in this sim and the hurricanes 303s and german 20mm, The b239 hits harder then the p47 and the p40.

Theres also armor problems with many a/c, lets just say not the 109 il2 jug p40 i16 i153 hurricane and mig3.

The spread of the p47s .50 cals are really bad even at 150.0 convergence Im hoping they get fixed badly,

just before a few buds of mine were testing 3 p47 d27s vs 1 190a9 all taking turns in the 190 17 times out of 20 the 190 destroyed all 3 jugs who were using defualt and 25% fuel.

second test different pilot

16-20 times 190a9 destroyed all 3 jugs / [jug kills] jug #1 pk, jug #2 tore off wing, jug #1 tore off wing, jug #3 cable snap

third

18-20 times 190a9 destroyed all 3 jugs / [jug kills] jug #2 tore off a wing of the 190/ jug #2 ripped off 190s tail with side gastank hit

fourth

17-20 times 190a9 destroyed all 3jugs / [jug kills] jug #3 tore wing off kill, jug #1 snapped alieron controlls and exploded 190 into a million pieces, jug #1 pk on 190

The jug can stay on the 6 of a 190 for only second. However if you get a belly gastank hit you can rip off the tail with a fireball but its almost impossible to get that shot.

Settings were

cockpit off
externals on
labels shortened to 1.3
padlock off
map icons off
air start at 7000m
everything else on

3 jugs on comms trying to set a low alt trap to bnz on the 190, good wingmen of a very respectable squad

I really hope oleg does something to to make the jug somewhat competetive





http://www.freewebs.com/leadspitter/lead.txt
Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 11:24 AM
theres some major problems with .50 caliber in this sim and the hurricanes 303s and german 20mm, The b239 hits harder then the p47 and the p40.

Theres also armor problems with many a/c, lets just say not the 109 il2 jug p40 i16 i153 hurricane and mig3.

The spread of the p47s .50 cals are really bad even at 150.0 convergence Im hoping they get fixed badly,

just before a few buds of mine were testing 3 p47 d27s vs 1 190a9 all taking turns in the 190 17 times out of 20 the 190 destroyed all 3 jugs who were using defualt and 25% fuel.

second test different pilot

16-20 times 190a9 destroyed all 3 jugs / [jug kills] jug #1 pk, jug #2 tore off wing, jug #1 tore off wing, jug #3 cable snap

third

18-20 times 190a9 destroyed all 3 jugs / [jug kills] jug #2 tore off a wing of the 190/ jug #2 ripped off 190s tail with side gastank hit

fourth

17-20 times 190a9 destroyed all 3jugs / [jug kills] jug #3 tore wing off kill, jug #1 snapped alieron controlls and exploded 190 into a million pieces, jug #1 pk on 190

The jug can stay on the 6 of a 190 for only second. However if you get a belly gastank hit you can rip off the tail with a fireball but its almost impossible to get that shot.

Settings were

cockpit off
externals on
labels shortened to 1.3
padlock off
map icons off
air start at 7000m
everything else on

3 jugs on comms trying to set a low alt trap to bnz on the 190, good wingmen of a very respectable squad

I really hope oleg does something to to make the jug somewhat competetive





http://www.freewebs.com/leadspitter/lead.txt
Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 11:28 AM
Competitive? I thought the idea was to make the flight model realistic? But competitive might be a better word actually.

Am I the only one who suspects that a lot of plane X whining is rooted in the desire of people to make their favourite plane an ├┼ôberplane?

cheers/slush

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You can't handle the truth!
Col. Jessep

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 11:58 AM
Slush69 wrote:

- Am I the only one who suspects that a lot of plane X
- whining is rooted in the desire of people to make
- their favourite plane an ├┼ôberplane?


Hear hear. Learn to fly your favorite plane and then you can kill anything...

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 12:02 PM
my favorite plane is the 190 actually and I do the best in the 190 the only match is a yak9u t or 3, and I do very well in them but I choose to fly the underdogs p40 p47s mig3 in a all planeset server. And its fm is crazy im noway bias toward any country or a/c

Remember my old sig with the animated bullets and the 190 black 8 graphic in the backround?. In reality just about any plane can stay on the 6 of an oppenent for a a couple of seconds, the faster a/c and better turning a/c was so minimal it wasnt so obvious as it is in this sim, ever since a kid when my grandfather gave me a couple guncamera footage reels from f9f panthers corsairs wildcats hellcats and skyraiders I have collected reels over 18hrs of 9mm guncamera reels.

He was stationed aboard the carrier tarawa in wwii and the korean war and a friend of holsey

I love this game but it seems more screwy then ever, certain planes you cant trottle back, other planes you can, specific planes your can come to a quick stop using prop pitch and trottle, gliding with no engine across a map, super damage models ineffective weapons, collision bug where one plane can fly right thru another without being damaged, snap stall whips while and rolling non stop in negative gs with no redout or blackouts, floping around while climbing without severe energy loss. I dont want to be a complainer, but the game lost its fun to me becuase of all these out of reality changes. This is coming from a person with a spl if you know what that is.


http://www.freewebs.com/leadspitter/lead.txt
Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 12:05 PM
YOu have to see it in perspective, the FW-190A-9 can carry up to 6 20mm's and two 13mm's while the P-47 can only carry 8 12.6 machine-guns. I think a lot of people overrate the .50's hitting power on armoured aircraft, especially as the FW-190A was deemed just as - or more rugged than the P-47.

<center>
---------------------------------------
Fokker G.I
http://www.defensie.nl:30280/home/pictures/7370.jpg
http://www.uvika.dn.ua/av/PLANE/HOLLAND/FOKKER_G-1/Fokker_G-1b_03a-n.jpg
</center>

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 12:34 PM
A spl? I'm curious! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

cheers/slush

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You can't handle the truth!
Col. Jessep

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 12:39 PM
p51d kill on 190
http://www.freewebs.com/leadspitter/3.avi

Bud ANderson p51d kill on me109
http://www.cebudanderson.com/budguncamerafilm.wmv

these are just some net clips which you cant judge just from these 2 clips I understand but i have hundreds of different clips of reels which show the power of the .50 cal, just think 1 .50 of a b17 was able to shoot down a 190 or 109 alot of AAA mobile vechiles used 4 .50 cal turrents to defend runways, I have alot of clips of 190s and 109s shooting down p51s jugs b17s b24s spitfires and any contact causes the huge fireball explosions and secondary explosions and wingfires or gastank explosions even with self sealing tanks, so do 303s and .50 cal


http://www.freewebs.com/leadspitter/lead.txt
Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 12:42 PM
I can't believe that with 3 pilots you can't manage to shoot down a A9. Did you rotate the pilots?

What exactly are the two other planes doing when the 190 is on the third's tail?

Nic

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 12:48 PM
try it out and you'll see, Ill be on HL tommorrow at around 5 EST if you would like to try for yourself.

http://www.freewebs.com/leadspitter/lead.txt
Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 01:27 PM
Hi leadspitter,

Thanks for all of the great screenshots, detailed test reports and methodology, and all of those supporting tracks. Really helps make your case. Maddox has no choice but to listen to such a well written and accurate analysis.

Just think - the above could have all been true had you actually placed your efforts into testing rather than whining.



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XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 03:00 PM
try it out and see clint, all the people who are so quick to call someone a whiner and no ones ever seen them flying online

even at 9000m where the p47-27 has a slight speed advantage it cannot stay on the 6 of a 190 for less then a second.

the d10 is a closer fight with the 190a9 at high alts 7000-9000 but even the best jug pilots know the fustrations of weak ammo, and not being able to stay on a 190s 6.

Call me a whiner i dont give a damn I have never seen you fly before once online, ask some of the best jug pilots online the jambocks and see what they say.

clint go on hyper lobby tommorrow with 2 friends and fly the d27 and I will fly the 190 a9 use comms make a video record the track, use any tactics you and you buddies wish and we can post the numbers etc my HL name is :Leadspitter: pm me



http://www.freewebs.com/leadspitter/lead.txt
Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 03:06 PM
I agree about 50cals 110%.. though the progress of this game has showed, that this never gets fixxed.. just learn to live with it /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif I use extremely close convergences nowdays on P-47, some 150 meters to ensuge best damage..

____________________________________



<center>http://koti.mbnet.fi/vipez/sig3.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 03:11 PM
Vipez- wrote:
- I agree about 50cals 110%.. though the progress of
- this game has showed, that this never gets fixxed..
- just learn to live with it /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif I use extremely close
- convergences nowdays on P-47, some 150 meters to
- ensuge best damage..

Call that extremely close? Hm, that's my standard convergence for mg's and cannons in all aircraft.

cheers/slush

http://dk.groups.yahoo.com/group/aktivitetsdage/files/Eurotrolls.gif

You can't handle the truth!
Col. Jessep

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 03:42 PM
I agree that the .50 cals in Jugs seem underpowered and that one-on-one with all things being roughly equal, a FB 190a9 will defeat an FB P47 most of the time.

But in my experience, two P47s on my tail spells doom. Just a couple of hits from those showering bullet streams and my FM decays significantly. While I might not go down quickly, I sure won't be shooting anyone down.

So please forgive me for sounding skeptical, but did your P47 pilots know what they were doing? Three-on-one with all other factors equaled out would, IMHO, mean certain death for the FW.

My impressions of the last two months revolve around dawns. Pink dawns, grey dawns, misty, rainy and windy dawns, but always dawns; first light. Shadowy Spitfires and quietness . . . . Geoffrey Wellum, First Light.

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 05:54 PM
LeadSpitter_ wrote:
- p51d kill on 190
- <a href="http://www.freewebs.com/leadspitter/3.avi"
- target=_blank>http://www.freewebs.com/leadspitter/
- 3.avi</a>
-
-
- Bud ANderson p51d kill on me109
- <a
- href="http://www.cebudanderson.com/budguncamerafil
- m.wmv"
- target=_blank>http://www.cebudanderson.com/budgunc
- amerafilm.wmv</a>



Wow, .50 really have a nice punch!/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

"degustibus non disputandum"

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<center>"Weder Tod noch Teufel!"</font>[/B]</center> (http://www.jzg23.de>[B]<font)

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 06:30 PM
- cockpit off
- externals on
- labels shortened to 1.3
- padlock off
- map icons off
- air start at 7000m
- everything else on
-


/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif Is this the same Leadspittier i know? Try the same in FR now /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/ivan-reaper.gif

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

Buzz_25th
10-14-2003, 06:33 PM
I agree with you Lead. I've been saying the .50's should have more power. Anybody who says they are right has never looked at real footage.

I'm really worried about the P-51. If the .50's don't have some power it's going to be a dead duck.

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25th_Buzz
<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 06:54 PM
Hmm. 7000m, three P-47s on a Fw-190, and the P-47's couldn't take the Fw-190 out?

Sounds like somebody wasn't trying hard enough. See if you can find Rall for the Fw-190 pilot and some 353 for the P-47 pilots. Fw-190 will take a lot of hits to go down, but the thing is, just a few hits will give it a lot of control trouble.

Also, try setting your guns out further. Anything less than 200m convergence won't work very well; try 250 or 300.

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/klv_ubisig1a.jpg


Oh yeah, I'm a P-63 whiner too! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 07:33 PM
Hmm, I set up the QMB with me in a P-47 against three FW 190 aces. Well, I climbed up to 9000 meters and there was nothing they could do other than stalling when I dove down on them repeatedly. I eventually downed all three of them. Just needed a bit more than an eternity.

Buzz_25th
10-14-2003, 07:36 PM
Now do it again, and make a track this time../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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25th_Buzz
<center>
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XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 09:22 PM
Hi Leadspitter,

I regret to inform you that I'm on the wrong side of a 33.6k dialup in Brisbane, so I don't think I'll be joining you on Hyperlobby anytime soon.

I am sure that you and all of your little pals online are quite convinced of what you say.

That's utterly and completely meaningless to me, however. You could in fact say that I actively do not care.

You have made a post that contains nothing but unsupported assertions and conjecture with the usual trademark OLEG FIX PLZ KTHNX whine tagged onto the end. Thanks, I'm sure he'll get right on it.

My opinion on the matter is that you are seeing the results of two things that Oleg has already acknowledged, and, as far as I know, intends to have fixed by the release of the pay addon:

a) excessive control authority at certain speed ranges in the FW-190 series

b) simplified damage model for the FW-190A series.

Possibly made worse by the way the P-47 seems to be knocked around by sustained bursts from its guns.

The last issue is noteworthy particularly because of the fine work JTD has done in trying to nail that issue down. With screenshots and averaged test results and an open mind on the issue.

Is it so hard to do? Are you deficient or disabled in some way that prevents you from doing similar work?


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XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 11:31 PM
the 50cal on the B-239 is different then that of the guns on a P-40 or 47

HISTORY OF FINNISH MADE BMG LKk/42 CAL .50 BMG
The gun endeed is made as "copy" of US made M2 BMG, ment for Brewster fighter planes B-239 in the first place. You fellows in USA call these AN-M3?
The Finnish variant is called 12,70 LKk 42. Manufacturer was Tourula's Arms Factory, that's VKT = State Rifle Factory. On top of these guns were stamped the text: 12,70 LKk/42 , VKT and serial number. LKk = LentoKone Konekiva"a"ri = Flight Machine Gun.

The Finnish variant was designed and copied from the USA made Brewster fighter plane model because there were plans to build a Finnish variant of the famous Brewster B-239 plane and it needed effective weaponry, which .50 cal BMG was proved to be. The new plane type would have been called "Humu" (Distant Thunder. Anyway the design was a failure since shortage in engines etc. and partly also due the design materials to be used were not good enough, and better materials were not available. But the LKk/42's were made, all together around 500 pieces at Tourula, most of which saw service use in Finnish made Myrsky fighter planes.

Humu was designed to hold three Finnish Lkk/42 BMGs.

An other Finnish design with fighter planes, called Myrsky (Storm; a copycat of US Curtiss fighter plane) was build and used in Finland during WW2 and it used the Finnish Lkk/42 MGs. All together 51 Myrky-planes were made during WW2, starting from 1941. 46 of them were still in service use after WW2. First Myrsky planes used two LKk/42 MGs which shot through the probellow (sp?) but later ones were equipped with four LKk/42 BMGs. Pilots who flew the planes which had the LKk/42s in them, said the flying speed slowed little bit during continuous firing http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

Finnish model was designed to be mounted to frame or to wings of the plane, as was with US made models. Belts could be feeded from either side of the weapon. Belt was of disintegrating type. Loading during flying was made with "steel wire" which had a handel for pilot to make extra reloading moves during flights.

The LKk/42 was equipped with very thin barrel, and it heated up very rapidly if shot on the ground. Therefore the limit of shots allowed to be shot on ground was ruled to 30-40 rounds.

Only drawback with Finnish design were the Finnish made barrels to the weapon. For unknown reason they started to have "hair cracks" or even wider cracks, on them during heavy service use, which was strange considering the quality with eg. rifle and Maxim barrels made in Finland during WW2. The probable reason for this is most likely the steel type used in the barrels. The other reason is probably the thinnes of barrels used in airplane use. Barrels were either smooth on surface or had "crooves" on them to make cooling bit easier.

After WW2 most of the planes which used the LKk/42 BMGs were slowly drawn to Army deposits. Brewsters were the first planes to be retired, since they were used up (and shot at) very badly during continuous battle use during WW2 wars. Engines were also worn badly etc.

Since Finland was very poor after the war and new material was not ordered for many army branches, the LKk/42 saw a new coming, this time in Anti Aircraft (AA) role. The reason was simply that no money was available for AA defence systems after the wars. So, during 1947-48 at Tampere Air Force deposit different types of AA LKk/42s were "put together".

Biggest "monster" was a setup which hold 4 LKk/42 BMGs in a stand specially made for these. There were also models which used one, or two LKk/42 (or BMGs). The 4 set model was partly a failure thanks to enormous recoil it produced during firing. Since one LKk/42 / BMG firing speed was 1000-1100 rounds per minute they could shoot over 4000 rounds into air during one minute (in the magazine they say it's about 200 kg of bullets in the air!). When one or two LKk/42 or BMG had failure in it (primer failure etc.) the four set monster wasn't easy to handel thanks to ballance problems due to recoil the guns produced ("twisting" is probly the English word for this phenomena).

In 1956 Finnish Air Force (FAF) had 254 pieces of one, two and four set AA BMGs and in reserve also an other 183 "sets". Only FAF used these type of AA weapons. Their role was to defend air fields/roads.

These weapons have been in service use more or less till recent years actually, in AA role, but also in fighter planes. LKk/42s were used little bit in planes as "training MGs" eg. in Swedish made Draken and British Hawk fighters. The use started at 1980's. According to memo made in 16.2.1983 "test firings were done in late of 1982 to get the test guns into service use with Drakens". Tests were succesfull.

It was found out that extensive changes had to be made to get these LKk/42 type BMGs in Draken use, so only the DKS model was found out to be the most suitable to be mounted with these weapons. The usage was based to financial reasons, since 12,7 mm ammo was/is cheaper than the actual 30 mm rounds these planes use. Only very few DKS used these guns.

It seems that also Sweden was interested to use BMGs in their planes after WW2, probably partly because of same reasons we Finns used them here. Records indicating this were found from 1959 written FFV Aerotech's flight machinegun manual of American AN-M3 BMG. Swedish version is from year 1986 and it is said that it's exactly like the Finnish LKk/42 MG is (copy of Finnish model perhaps?).

Technical data
Weight of basic weapon: 24,25 kg
One barreled version with magazines: 56 kg
100 round belt weight: 13,2 kg
Firing speed: 1000-1100 rounds/minute
Bullet velocity: 700-835 m/s
Lenght of the rifling: 810 mm

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 11:57 PM
I've been flying on the FAST server alot with a P-47 as my trusty all around platform for fighter and bomber missions.

Those gun cam footage movies make me start to think that they are still underpowered but I have had significant practice with the P-47 and its guns and achieved some decent results.

The three P-47's shooting at a FW-190 and not killing or disabling it seems a little crazy. How much were you hitting the plane? From what angle? I've noticed that straight 6 o'clock shots do not work very well on the FW...you get no armor penetration at all and you may be lucky to do control cable damage.

The best shots on any plane, but particularly on the FW190 is from a slightly oblique angle. Aim for the engine or a wing and you should be able to do the right damage.

I tried scalling the convergences on the guns way back...to 150 meters and closer. I tried 250 meters. I found the sweet spot so far to be 380-400 meters. VERY odd...but I've gotten five or six kills on one load of extended ammo online against Bf 109's and FW190's.

Something may still be wrong with the .50cals. I would appreciate Oleg and team at least looking into the gun and ensuring that some mistake hasn't been made in its modeling. Stuff can happen in code...to even the best of programmers...maybe something has gone wrong. If at the end nothing changes, I can live with that...you are limited by technology's ability to mimic the real and I can understand that.

With the recent fury of posts on here about the .50 cal, many from experience pilots, it seems that the general consensus is that perception of the .50 cal and its performance in FB is off....at times perhaps frusterating to people trying to get what seems to be an effective fighter at actually being effective.

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XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 06:11 AM
full real settings is a different story 2 p47s can take one 190 out with teamwork bnzing but its still very difficult and usually takes a couple pass's

With externals on its a different story becuase you cant bnz a 190 they can turn out of the way even when bnzing.

Yes its the same leadspitter you know from HL, i usually fly in full real settings but sometimes slammins server is fun when you only got a couple minutes to fly.

http://www.freewebs.com/leadspitter/lead.txt
Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 06:41 AM
Prob is... P-47 *can* keep up with the Fw-190 in a turn, especially in the horizontal. Takes some voodoo to pull it off, but its possible.

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/klv_ubisig1a.jpg


Oh yeah, I'm a P-63 whiner too! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif