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LEBillfish
06-11-2005, 08:41 AM
Hi All;

Probably should have posted this here first and in PF instead of ORR, but if interest is shown in the community I'd like to press 1c for their support...

I'd like to submit for the communities consideration with naturally 1c's final approval a proposal which I think might be of value to enhancing the sim, putting us "all" on par, yet at the same time not taking up virtually any of 1c's time.

That being, the generation of a "Community Patch" to have final assembly of an .exe performed by one of our skilled members, or better still 1c......To have it generated by the community at large.....and to finally have it distributed on the Ubi website.

What would be contained would be minor things that can at times really enhance the sim. What I would initially propose it contain would be the following....

1. New "Skin Voids" where needed. The community has generated some excellent "Voids" to be used in the making of skins with corrected lines and rivets, etc.. One for each plane we could get them for would be added, selected and approved by the community skinners.

2. New "Default Skins"...Some of the "Default skins" are very lacking by today's standards. So here one for each plane would be added. In many cases simply a generic skin, for say aircraft that saw many fronts. Some like the Ki-61 for example corrected to show the unit that was issued that plane initially. Not all need to be replaced (winter stuka an example) some do. Again chosen by our resident skinners.

3. New "Default Markings".....Frankly the old markings are terrible, many of the PF planes sporting markings that are weathered looking much better. In kind often numbering and such is off. Here I'm not proposing something as complex as MatManager, though that could be utilized to some degree.

4. New "Squadron insignia & markings".....here, correct squadron insignia could be corrected.

5. New "Included Skins".....Here I would suggest that in addition to the default, we add "community approved" skins of various "units" historically correct. These are put in the skins folder, once again the finest of the community selected and they made generic to that unit (not a particular aces skin).

5a. Pilot skins as well as in uniforms and such.

6. "Speech packs".....This grouping would include the many "historical" speech packs the community has generated. These would NOT be "accented" in the players native language, yet the actually language of the region....A good example "Java Dutch".....Only those required where community generated speech packs are superior to the sim provided.

7. Samples\Sounds files......Currently we have a few in this folder which can be used during briefings.....I suggest here we add some famous speeches ex. "Roosevelt's speech on the attack of pearl harbor", "Japanese declaration of war" etc.. Also, we would add other "sound effect tracks" simply 30 second clips of combat, bombs falling, planes doing fly bys etc..

8. Music Files.....Here I propose we set up "Background radio traffic" by both nationality and region...also civilian radio. So what you would have is a file say in "In Flight" for each nationality--in each region it fought (so enemy traffic can be added)...and also civilian radio broadcasts.

Utilities:
9. Regarding 8 above I'd suggest we also add IL2FBwav.exe "pre-set" and a simple script I generated and .cmd files that allow you to change that background music in flight (once in the sim).

10. Any other utility such as bombing tables, perhaps a mini-mat-manager, bright conversion tool for skinning, Object viewers...etc..

11. Documentation files.......Here we could add in tables and files such as ammo loadouts, plane/unit histories, historical maps whatever.

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Here is how I would hope this would go....If we get 1c's approval to go ahead with this, the community would start proposing what is to be added in the various forums, and the files would be built.

Once done, the community will vote on the content, and it will be assembled as to directory\file....At that point it would either have a 1c generated (preferred) or community generated .exe made and be tested.

Finally "approved by 1c" and distributed on the Ubi site as a patch and any mirror site wishing it.........For free.

The point, to improve the little aspects of the sim that only a few of us find scattered pieces of...To make it publicly available in a central patch...and bring all who download it up to date with an enhanced sim.....Hence all playing the same sim.

Thoughts?...Opinions?...Additions?</span>

Hydra444
06-11-2005, 09:01 AM
Its the one logical way to put an end to some of the senseless whinning that goes on around here...As my old man used to say to me as a young boy ,"Ya gotta speak up if ya wanna be heard,boy." If this does actually go somewhere,it'll be the best thing to happen to this sim,or any other for that matter.

LEBillfish
06-11-2005, 09:48 AM
Originally posted by Hydra444:
Its the one logical way to put an end to some of the senseless whinning that goes on around here...As my old man used to say to me as a young boy ,"Ya gotta speak up if ya wanna be heard,boy." If this does actually go somewhere,it'll be the best thing to happen to this sim,or any other for that matter.

Well this patch would NOT deal with guns, FM or DM....Simply little audio and visual enhancements that make it much more immersive.

Currently these same things are utilized by many here....however, not all. In kind it becomes difficult to track down all the items, so here it would all be in an all inclusive patch.

Hydra444
06-11-2005, 12:15 PM
Ah,no doubt Bill.FM's and DM's aren't probs that can be resolved over-night.But if a collective effort were made to help Oleg and the boys find out whats wrong with them and what have you,it would really go great lengths to improve this sim.

Not only that,but it would give all the Lufte's (I recently converted myself http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif) something to do with all them charts they whip out all the dang time http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

sunflower1
06-11-2005, 12:36 PM
I'm mystified as to why this idea doesn't have a lot of enthusiastic support. But life has lots of mysteries.

Dash_C.
06-11-2005, 12:45 PM
Excellent idea.

BUMP!

Hydra444
06-11-2005, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by sunflower1:
I'm mystified as to why this idea doesn't have a lot of enthusiastic support. But life has lots of mysteries.

Because its easier to sit and complain about something than it is to do something about...Or atleast thats what I think http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
06-11-2005, 01:10 PM
Sounds like a good idea to me http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

JG54_Arnie
06-11-2005, 01:15 PM
Yeah, very good http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif Better default skins and more options that are also supported by all other players (skins wont need to be downloaded) would be really nice!

Hydra, I think you wouldnt want to have this kind of idea for FM and DM issues, noone is gonna be able to work it out such that all the whining would be over, on the contrary I think. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Huckebein_UK
06-11-2005, 01:30 PM
I think this sounds like an outstanding idea, especially the new default and void skin files, and the sound alterations. Pilot skins are another area that I'd love to see improved quickly, easily and cleanly.

Overall I can't see anything anyone would complain about in your proposal - I'll support it all the way. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I'd even like to have a shot at one or two candidates for the generic Fw 190 skins if I may? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

goshikisen
06-11-2005, 01:45 PM
The quality of skins has improved dramatically since the early days of this series... I think some new defaults would be a great idea. It wouldn't entail that much work (not to create them... but to implement as default) and it would reflect on the sim in a very positive way.

Billfish's ideas sound great.

Huckebein_UK
06-11-2005, 02:36 PM
Just a little 'bumpette' here - why so little interest? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Taylortony
06-11-2005, 02:55 PM
Quote

Just a little 'bumpette' here - why so little interest?

Well for One

Maddox isnt about to release the source code........... so its dead in the water

Two
In my opinion keeping it all inhouse has contributed to the quality of the product ..period....

Three
Two has had some detriment to Maddox Games, I will explain,
The fact you cannot develop for the game as as I have said kept the quality up............ BUT and I mean a BIG But...... CFS3 allows you to develop Aircraft etc for the game and this in itself have maintained CFS in a high price bracket like MS Flightsimulator, as the game can be added to and improved, so it hold its price due to the massive online support and add on's................ FB and PF do not have this facility so the price bombs about a month after release............. the only thing that keeps it going is the patches, but in the Microdross sims scope of things, they are 2 far apart and 2 constrained both in content and aircraft to make any significant difference to price...

Hydra444
06-11-2005, 03:44 PM
@Arnie:Oh,totally agree man.I was just using them as an example is all.I'm pretty satisfied with them as is anyway.

Anything we as a community can do to help add to the development of this game would be a good thing.Who wouldn't like to play something that they themselves had abit of hand in,no matter how little.Wether that be suggesting more types of utilities in-game or new default skins (the ones for the Emils make me cringe http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif).

carguy_
06-11-2005, 03:54 PM
I don`t particulary consider opening the code for improvements as a blasphemy but it would be very hard to develop a control system for this kind of modifications.

LeadSpitter_
06-11-2005, 05:13 PM
I tried this a couple times billfish and they did not want to hear it,

aces_high2 and I tried to get his mat manager into the game so many times, also with default generic skin updates which need it very badly from various authors who gave permissions.

I also asked about skins being linked to maps or is it possibible to link skins to regimental markings but go no answers both in forums and personal mail.

I think each of the waits between patches if we had 2-3 mb patchs that update only skins and mats would ease the waittime.

Also make them non essential nor a version change so many who dont want them on 56 do not have to dl it.

EURO_Snoopy
06-11-2005, 07:25 PM
Good post and all sound ideas in principal, but it's not really practical for the following reasons:

1,2,5 Would be a good idea, but opinions on what is the best void or skin to choose would make axis/allied whines look like a picnic. To satisfy all several versions of each skin would be necessary. Leading to a massive file size.

3,4, Aces covered this with MAT manager

6. Several projects already completed and included in the game. I would imagine there may be work on speechpacks for BOB, these may find their way to FB, may not.

7. All sounds are synthesized, use of sound files for engine sounds would allow cheats, sounds for game ambience are again a good idea and some campaigns come with such sound files.

8. Again work already done and included in patches and addon campaigns.

9,10,11 all good but are available seperately.

Anything in the list that would be possible could be achieved with third party releases, as in the past.
A comprehensive addon such as this may put off development by third party developers

If all above projects were released as a patch its size would be in the order of XGB and not really suitable for download. Plus 1C would be unlikely to get involved as it would bite into BOB development.

The FB experience is far from over, more is to come, from 1c and third party sources, so do not despair. I personally hope that the BOB FM for FB is just the start of BOB technology finding its way into FB.

I have looked at making a compilation DVD of skins and addons for the FB series. The problem I encountered was that if I were to include the best out there it would fill one DVD easily, possibly needing two. Then there is the problem of some people not having a DVD player in their PC!!!! Very daunting.

sapre
06-11-2005, 08:14 PM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Hi All;

Probably should have posted this here first and in PF instead of ORR, but if interest is shown in the community I'd like to press 1c for their support...

I'd like to submit for the communities consideration with naturally 1c's final approval a proposal which I think might be of value to enhancing the sim, putting us "all" on par, yet at the same time not taking up virtually any of 1c's time.

That being, the generation of a "Community Patch" to have final assembly of an .exe performed by one of our skilled members, or better still 1c......To have it generated by the community at large.....and to finally have it distributed on the Ubi website.

What would be contained would be minor things that can at times really enhance the sim. What I would initially propose it contain would be the following....

1. New "Skin Voids" where needed. The community has generated some excellent "Voids" to be used in the making of skins with corrected lines and rivets, etc.. One for each plane we could get them for would be added, selected and approved by the community skinners.

2. New "Default Skins"...Some of the "Default skins" are very lacking by today's standards. So here one for each plane would be added. In many cases simply a generic skin, for say aircraft that saw many fronts. Some like the Ki-61 for example corrected to show the unit that was issued that plane initially. Not all need to be replaced (winter stuka an example) some do. Again chosen by our resident skinners.

3. New "Default Markings".....Frankly the old markings are terrible, many of the PF planes sporting markings that are weathered looking much better. In kind often numbering and such is off. Here I'm not proposing something as complex as MatManager, though that could be utilized to some degree.

4. New "Squadron insignia & markings".....here, correct squadron insignia could be corrected.

5. New "Included Skins".....Here I would suggest that in addition to the default, we add "community approved" skins of various "units" historically correct. These are put in the skins folder, once again the finest of the community selected and they made generic to that unit (not a particular aces skin).

5a. Pilot skins as well as in uniforms and such.

6. "Speech packs".....This grouping would include the many "historical" speech packs the community has generated. These would NOT be "accented" in the players native language, yet the actually language of the region....A good example "Java Dutch".....Only those required where community generated speech packs are superior to the sim provided.

7. Samples\Sounds files......Currently we have a few in this folder which can be used during briefings.....I suggest here we add some famous speeches ex. "Roosevelt's speech on the attack of pearl harbor", "Japanese declaration of war" etc.. Also, we would add other "sound effect tracks" simply 30 second clips of combat, bombs falling, planes doing fly bys etc..

8. Music Files.....Here I propose we set up "Background radio traffic" by both nationality and region...also civilian radio. So what you would have is a file say in "In Flight" for each nationality--in each region it fought (so enemy traffic can be added)...and also civilian radio broadcasts.

Utilities:
9. Regarding 8 above I'd suggest we also add IL2FBwav.exe "pre-set" and a simple script I generated and .cmd files that allow you to change that background music in flight (once in the sim).

10. Any other utility such as bombing tables, perhaps a mini-mat-manager, bright conversion tool for skinning, Object viewers...etc..

11. Documentation files.......Here we could add in tables and files such as ammo loadouts, plane/unit histories, historical maps whatever.

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Here is how I would hope this would go....If we get 1c's approval to go ahead with this, the community would start proposing what is to be added in the various forums, and the files would be built.

Once done, the community will vote on the content, and it will be assembled as to directory\file....At that point it would either have a 1c generated (preferred) or community generated .exe made and be tested.

Finally "approved by 1c" and distributed on the Ubi site as a patch and any mirror site wishing it.........For free.

The point, to improve the little aspects of the sim that only a few of us find scattered pieces of...To make it publicly available in a central patch...and bring all who download it up to date with an enhanced sim.....Hence all playing the same sim.

Thoughts?...Opinions?...Additions?</span>

I totally support this idea http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Enforcer572005
06-11-2005, 08:43 PM
Since FB is winding down a bit, i think it would be useful if more user made stuff was allowed.....it's the only way we will ever get any more ships, and there have been some nice ai planes made which dont seem to have much chance of seeing light of day (like the AI SM79 i on here a few weeks back-give it a DB2 flight model etc).

THis seems to be one of the few areas the ms sims have an advantage in....that and the availibility of much larger maps.

I distinctly remember when IL2 first came out 4 yrs ago that there was alot more user input planned. Ive seen some really nice ships that will never be availible, and i miss some of the ohter stuff CFS2 had from users...like merlin engine sounds etc.

Something between this near total exclusion of user made stuff and the chaos of CFS2 would be really nice. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

LEBillfish
06-11-2005, 11:19 PM
Hi all;

Thanks for the responses but I think this might be getting a bit confused so just chiming in to clairify......

First off, this proposal has "nothing"...once more "does not" deal with guns, FM's, DM's, objects, ships, static items, open source codes or any of the meat of the Sim.....I myself liking the fact that it is closed.

What it does indeed deal with is something that Euro-Snoopy mentions and that is "Already available items".

Trouble with those items is they are spread out over MANY "outstanding" websites.....Some specific in their intent like say skins, some general covering the entire gambit.....Many linking you to even more sites so your hunt continues through a maze of "great stuff".

The point of this proposal is collecting up some of the more common items that any of us can add and use into one patch.

The only thing "altering" of the sim how we receive it from 1c/Ubi would be new default skins and markings.

All these items are "add ons".

Sound files for "realistic" voices from AI....Background radio traffic simply buzzing away meaning nothing but adding to the immersion where you put "music files for take off, in flight and crash".....and .wav files that go in the samples\sounds folder which you use in briefings...

The last the makes a good point......If everyone does NOT have those .wav files in then only those few that do hear them in the briefings.

As to skins.....Well we do need some new "defaults" in "some" cases not all....and who can turn down the best voids out there to build a skin upon?

Markings?...well as to Specific Squadron some are simply wrong or not there......Nose art if "historical" could even be included.....Lastly, who can top mat manager..Not me that's for sure, yet the trouble is with that is it is not "part of the sim" so it is only the person using it who sees it. Well, on many of the new "default skins" for PF you'll notice they are NOT using the bright colored markings yet weathered....So why not get the rest that way, better still, I say if we could get 1c to incorporate Mat manager into the sim all the better.

Then we are all seeing the same markings. As point blank, though you get to see planes with great markings if you use it, you're actually on the other hand cheating yourself as everyone else see's the day-glo ones to target you with.

Extra "historical squadron skins, pilot skins and such speak for themselves...Yet historical the key, and if tom, ****, and harry all have different yet historical pilot skins say...I say include them all within reason.

You'll note I did not include missions or campaigns...reason is there are so many and all unique...All too big to confirm and agree on.

Historical documents, utilities like "object/plane/etc". viewers, bombsites and so on plusses. All helpful yet requiring a bit of searching to find and install.

So in the end you have a patch which does not really change the sim yet simply adds to it already available items.....Yet in one patch, one place...and if it works mirror it anywhere.

More so, you just improved the sim for all equally.......It puts no one out of business like say Airwarfare/Netwings/Combat Ace etc., in fact I'd hope they'd host it as well as another IL2 patch.

Why 1c's blessing.....as with it, we just improved the sim for all with some of the little things we want...and who knows, maybe next "patch go round" if there is one or in BoB......You'll simply find the items included if they can still be used.


Ahh..one last thing...."for anything" to be used in this requires the "makers" approval, so say the writer of IL2FBwav.exe said "no, I want it only available from the sorces I choose"...then fine, our loss but will not be included. However I'm betting most would like to know that not just maybe 10% of the pilots found and use their work, but 90%. EVeryone then knowing about their hard work...But their and only their choice.

tttiger6BL
06-12-2005, 12:36 AM
Many good ideas, Mrs. Fish, but my sense is that most of what you are asking for already is available
And the implementation appears highly unlikely. And it would limit the contributions of third party artists.

And I'm not sure I would want only "officially-sanctioned" skins, etc. Who is going to decide what skins should be used? Oleg. Same guy who gave us the ugly default skins, right? So why is there any reason to limit what can be used to Oleg's idea of what constitutes a good skin?

There has been a great reluctance on the part of St. Oleg or Ubi or someone to include and support third party "official" contributions to the sim.

Because third party contributions are such a major part of most other sims, I am not sure why this is so in IL-2/FB/PF. But it is so.

I completely agree the default skins are beyond ugly and those bright national markings are hopeless. Similarly, the campaigns (Starshoy products all of them) are pathetic and every review I've read points to them as the weakest link.

And, the sound sucks.

BUT, the sim allows the use of at least some third Party add-ons that are not included in the IC releases.

DCG is an excellent alternative to Starshoy's campaigns. And, if you don't like computer-generated campaigns, there are many excellent hand-written campaigns (and single missions and coop missions) out there that can be flown.

There would be more coops if Oleg had not decided (for reasons I've never understood) to make it impossible to pluck coops from our net cache.

One of the losses to this community has been the departure of many of our best coop writers such as Hangar and Metlushko. The only first-rate coop writer remaining is (IMHO) Bury.

If Oleg had encouraged and nurtured Hangar and Metlushko, they might still be around.

Skins? There is no end of great skins, many of them really works of art.

I, frankly, never fly default skins. When IL-2 Skins was up, there was a wealth of really excellent skins available. If an on-line host has skin downloads turned on, I can see everyone's skins. If not, at least I'm flying a skin that I prefer.

Similarly, there are excellent voice packs out there and there always is one playing in the background of my missions, even though I'm the only one who can hear them.

The only real shortfall is in sounds. Every other sim I've flown has allowed third party sound packs and some of them are amazingly good. Why they aren't allowed here also is a mystery to me.

I guess what bothers me about your suggestion (if I'm understanding you correctly) is that there be "officially sanctioned" skins, campaigns, voice packs, etc.

And that would (again if I'm reading your correctly) be at the exclusion of all others.

Under your concept (I think), I wouldn't be able to fly DCG at all.

I would prefer to have an open market in third party add-ons as we do now rather than giving Oleg the power to say what can be used and what can't. As poorly as he has been communicating with "the community" over the past year, I doubt there would be any input at all beyond his inner circle.

My sole wish is that the list include sounds. The engine sounds in this sim are laughable.

And maybe the maps. I've been to every one of those islands on the Pacific maps and not one of them is accurate in the sim. There's plenty of room for good third party maps.

I would prefer the decision to decide what I want to use reside with me (and the rest of you) rather than Oleg.

Again, we're not talking about source codes here.

I really prefer a marketplace approach for all the "decorative" stuff to centralizing and limiting what can and can't be used. Oleg should be opening doors to third party artists, not closing them.

ttt

LEBillfish
06-12-2005, 01:18 AM
Well as to "Oleg & 1c"...their role would simply be to say "we support these add-ons as a whole and agree they should be posted on Ubi...or don't."...At most simply make the .exe build.

What this would entail is a community approval for the most part...Sure, you'd get the "simply gonna rock the boat just because" or those very biased....So hopefully the experts of our community and those leaders would work with each grouping of things then present their picks. My guess is those either just wanting to disrupt on too biased would before it reaches that point walk away...maybe hehe.

However....this does not affect campaigns....Some here I believe "justifiably" making them as "work"...SO why step on their toes, or anyones for that matter even 1c's....

The point of this is to get the things, the little to many inconsequential things added as a large group....those little things that do make a difference, but so few are aware of.

This is not about Ubi, or 1c's work...this is about the third party players work, and getting it out there in such a way that the masses here instead of the select few who find it, or have the patience to add it can experience it.

"I guess what bothers me about your suggestion (if I'm understanding you correctly) is that there be "officially sanctioned" skins, campaigns, voice packs, etc.......And that would (again if I'm reading your correctly) be at the exclusion of all others."

Not at all......What it is intended to do is finally get those things recognized by the majority....As frankly for some, if it's not in their "Ubi" patches, they don't get it......

As to excluding all others, the opposite again. As it is intended to finally include at least some of the minor things that keep getting bypassed for bigger things.....

I'd exclude none if it could be done, but I think the little I'm seeking would already be huge. Yet who's to say there couldn't if this worked out be a "community patch 2,3,4...."

It's not to cut out the third party folks...Its to finally in a big way recognize and celebrate them.

Frankly they deserve it and the chance....Not being even denied it by us just because Bobs skin might be chosen as the new default over Toms.

It also does not stop other third party add ons. It simply masses some of them together to get out there in force.

WarWolfe_1
06-12-2005, 01:59 AM
LEBillfish......... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif great ideas!

Jasko76
06-12-2005, 02:36 AM
I wish you all the best of luck with this!

Because if something doesn't change, FB/PF will slowly die as people are fed up with out of the box things that Oleg doesn't allow us to modify.

If people can modify a game, they will, and this will keep the interest alive. If not - game dies.

Look at some old games that have been given infinite lives through 3rd party modifications: Falcon 4.0, CFS 2, Grand Prix Legends - a seven years old game and new maps are still being made, as well as cars improved.

There you have it.

Hrannar
06-12-2005, 07:10 AM
There has been a great reluctance on the part of St. Oleg or Ubi or someone to include and support third party "official" contributions to the sim.

Thats bullocks, look at all the third party airplane models, skins and maps that come shipped with the game.

LEBillfish, your idea is great, got my support on this http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

csThor
06-12-2005, 07:25 AM
Some folks seem to either misunderstand what he's saying or do read something different than I do.

Nowhere LEBillfish is saying something about opening the game for 3rd Party modifications - all he does is suggesting to collect community-made stuff like background sounds and skins and hand it over to Maddox Games. The skins replace old and unfavourable stock skins, some sounds may add to atmosphere etc etc

There is no single word about opening the engine (as that won't happen anyway)! Don't confuse yourself!

tttiger6BL
06-12-2005, 08:32 AM
I guess I'm missing the point, Mrs. Fish. I agree with you, absolutely, that third party participation adds much to the sim experience.

I certainly agree that the "little inconsequential things" such as skins and background chatter add immensely to the immersion.

But where I'm losing you is this concept of community involvement and approval. I don't think there's any need for a "community patch."

All those things you are talking about already are available, for free. It's just a matter of cranking up Google and doing some searching and then following links.

People "approve" or "disapprove" by going to those many sites and downloading the stuff they like. They don't need a committee to make those choices for them.

Now, if you just want to collect all those resources in one big supermarket (like IL-2 Skins -- if it ever is revived -- did for skins) instead of having to shop at many web sites, that's easy enough. Just list the links on the PF web site.

But when you say: "So hopefully the experts of our community and those leaders would work with each grouping of things then present their picks."

Nope. I don't need "experts" or "leaders" to choose what skins are available to me...or to others.

On that notion I respectfully disagree.

As to Hrannar's comment to me: "Thats bullocks, look at all the third party airplane models, skins and maps that come shipped with the game."

My response is: Yes, look at them. The skins are far from the best available. Third party planes that are complete are not released (can you spell Mosquito? The plane is done. Where is it in the game?). The DGEN campaigns are lame and none are provided for the new aircraft.

I absolutely encourage third party-add-ons. And I use them.

But I want the ability to pick and choose from what is out there, not from a list picked by the game designer or a committee of "experts."

The free market works just fine. It doesn't need fixing.

Cya in the coops, Mrs. Fish. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

S!

ttt

sunflower1
06-12-2005, 10:08 AM
"The free market works just fine. It doesn't need fixing."

Yes, that's one I like. But I don't have the exposure to this game's development, time, or perhaps the aptitude necessary to collect, install and successfully use many of the cool things that exist for this game. Its a great reason to be part of the community and a squad.

If I hear Mrs. Fish correctly, she's trying to beef up marketability of the game at the lowest possible expense to 1c and in the process many of the difficulties you mention arise. Would they be worth hashing out to have sound that is nothing to apologize for?

If that project took away none of the options you already have, would it be acceptable?

Hydra444
06-12-2005, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by csThor:
Some folks seem to either misunderstand what he's saying or do read something different than I do.

Nowhere LEBillfish is saying something about opening the game for 3rd Party modifications - all he does is suggesting to collect community-made stuff like background sounds and skins and hand it over to Maddox Games. The skins replace old and unfavourable stock skins, some sounds may add to atmosphere etc etc

There is no single word about opening the engine (as that won't happen anyway)! Don't confuse yourself!

Totally understood from the begining.But I think Bill is actually a "Jill".Call me crazy,but the sig kinda gave that away http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

LEBillfish
06-12-2005, 11:42 AM
First off I'm a "she" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

That out of the way the intent of all this is much more tame and simple then what is being read into it.

It is simply, to gather a few of the things that really enhance the sim without altering it into one place. More then that...Into one download and install.

So the average player or newbie can simply make this one download, and suddenly be exposed to just a sliver of what the highly talented 3rd party people have made.

These "little things" IMO instantly enhances the sim dramatically...So proves out the great value of our players 3rd party work. Who knows, it might inspire those that download it to then begin to make the effort to look further.


As to 1c's involvement / approval / disapproval / selection / or working with this patch....It would deliberately be nothing more then saying "we support this community 3rd party patch of enhancements....and wish it to be added to the Ubi site"..........However, absolutely in no way is 1c or Ubi to get credit for it....That going only to the third party people who's work is included....and the community as a whole for working together.

Lastly....As to community Leaders / Experts / Committee......Well, IMLTHO they are NOT to be selected, chosen, or asked to gather each part....

I see that process as simply threads are started to each topic...100's chime in, yet over time and as it begins to take effort those with the desire/interest for that area will tend to take a leadership role...Those Biased soon showing themselves....and hopefully by the end it sorts itself out.


Now, to be point blank about it.......I could do all this myself...Simply soliciting each third party person who's work I like to let me include theirs, then build it and post it.

Well, that's not my goal though I limited the categories right off......My goal for it to be a community collaboration......

However, there is only really one thing that could stop it.....and that being the Third Party Developers stating "we don't want our work added into a mass patch or available to the masses"......I would then respect that and take this no further.

Popey109
06-12-2005, 11:58 AM
I think what you‚‚ā¨ôre talking about is a great idea‚‚ā¨¬¶if nothing else changed but the default skins I‚‚ā¨ôd be a happy camper‚‚ā¨¬¶and Oleg has supported 3‚‚ā¨ôrd party in the past, Aces Mat manager is a fine example of this kind of cooperation‚‚ā¨¬¶now we have great looking weathered markings that don‚‚ā¨ôt require Mat running in the background http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

csThor
06-12-2005, 12:09 PM
Mea culpa. Can you forgive me, LEB? *face_puppy_eyes* http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

-HH-Quazi
06-12-2005, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
First off I'm a "she" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

That out of the way the intent of all this is much more tame and simple then what is being read into it.

It is simply, to gather a few of the things that really enhance the sim without altering it into one place. More then that...Into one download and install.

So the average player or newbie can simply make this one download, and suddenly be exposed to just a sliver of what the highly talented 3rd party people have made.

These "little things" IMO instantly enhances the sim dramatically...So proves out the great value of our players 3rd party work. Who knows, it might inspire those that download it to then begin to make the effort to look further.


As to 1c's involvement / approval / disapproval / selection / or working with this patch....It would deliberately be nothing more then saying "we support this community 3rd party patch of enhancements....and wish it to be added to the Ubi site"..........However, absolutely in no way is 1c or Ubi to get credit for it....That going only to the third party people who's work is included....and the community as a whole for working together.

Lastly....As to community Leaders / Experts / Committee......Well, IMLTHO they are NOT to be selected, chosen, or asked to gather each part....

I see that process as simply threads are started to each topic...100's chime in, yet over time and as it begins to take effort those with the desire/interest for that area will tend to take a leadership role...Those Biased soon showing themselves....and hopefully by the end it sorts itself out.


Now, to be point blank about it.......I could do all this myself...Simply soliciting each third party person who's work I like to let me include theirs, then build it and post it.

Well, that's not my goal though I limited the categories right off......My goal for it to be a community collaboration......

However, there is only really one thing that could stop it.....and that being the Third Party Developers stating "we don't want our work added into a mass patch or available to the masses"......I would then respect that and take this no further.

Well, after reading into this and especially the post above, I am now understanding what it is exactly you would like to see comprised and implemented. But I must say, before I read the above post, I was thinking like a few here posted, "all of these things are already available, it's just a matter of finding them". And that isn't an issue because Airwarfare has allot of these links. And I also agree with another poster that I don't need anyone to decide what I like, and that was the jest I was getting at first. But you really do not mean anything like that at all. If am understanding this now, you would like to see a single download pack to include the best this communities third party creating m8's have to offer, in one single download that is easily accessible from the Ubi site or really any other well known flight sim site. And this exe should install everything in it by just unzipping it to the main FB folder. Like an Enhancement Pack or something eh? Well if this is what you are talking about, super great idea maam! I would hope that the communitys' third party m8's would agree to allow thier creations to be added, and I would also hope that some of our more respected, all knowing m8's will volunteer to help compile this "Enhancement Pack". Really, any member of the community that wants to participate should volunteer to do so. Actually, 1c's and/or Ubi's approval isn't neccessary imho. Would be nice though, but not needed. But all in all, a great idea!

LEBillfish
06-12-2005, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by -HH-Quazi:
If am understanding this now, you would like to see a single download pack to include the best this communities third party creating m8's have to offer, in one single download that is easily accessible from the Ubi site or really any other well known flight sim site. And this exe should install everything in it by just unzipping it to the main FB folder. Like an Enhancement Pack or something eh? Well if this is what you are talking about, super great idea maam! I would hope that the communitys' third party m8's would agree to allow thier creations to be added, and I would also hope that some of our more respected, all knowing m8's will volunteer to help compile this "Enhancement Pack". Really, any member of the community that wants to participate should volunteer to do so. Actually, 1c's and/or Ubi's approval isn't neccessary imho. Would be nice though, but not needed. But all in all, a great idea!

-HH-Quasi understands exactly...That is it.


As a p.s. to this as another member posted in the PF thread..."I for one would download it because I don't have the stamina to wade through 90% of these utilities (UQMB being and exception ) or the time to do so unfortunately.
"

That is the reason why......To simply make as much 3rd party stuff as is reasonable, and a varied selection of it easily downloadable....Contained in the readme maybe even not just links to all that contained, but links to other things and websites as well.

Simple, easy, and if endorsed by 1c, pretty much assured it will be used......So those that might bypass something good getting exposed to it.

Hydra444
06-12-2005, 01:11 PM
Could this really be done though with little backing from 1c or Ubi?I'm not saying it can't,just a question.

Popey109
06-12-2005, 01:39 PM
Replacing the default skins would be the hardest part I think, but I could be wrong. This would require Oleg. And the community could vote for those skins they best would like as default‚‚ā¨¬¶there are so many good ones‚‚ā¨¬¶this would be hard to do, fortunately the artist are few and distinguished and there are many planes to cover‚‚ā¨¬¶I think most every artist could contribute at least one skin‚‚ā¨¬¶splash screens, sound files and music can be added easily...Default skins would be the trick, for that we need Oleg‚‚ā¨¬¶am I right?

LEBillfish
06-12-2005, 03:40 PM
Default "skins and markings" cannot be replaced without 1c's implimentation...In fact, it might be part of a huge file they are not willing to adjust....

However, this can be done even without 1c or Ubi...Sadly, then it will require "skin download" be on....As to markings sadly as well they would have to be part of the skin with "markings off/skin download on"...Or we might just say "frick it"...takes up valuable space on the patch for "iffy" use, and forgo that part utilizing the space for other things.

Hydra444
06-12-2005, 05:30 PM
Hrmmm,how long have you thought about this Bill?Must have been for quite sometime,you've put alotta thought into this,eh.

If you go the way of new default skins though,might as well revamp the markings as well.I think..

Enforcer572005
06-12-2005, 10:15 PM
Uh, now that i understand the suggestion here, I still think the time has come for more user made adon stuff, including equipment, like ships, vehicles, and especially maps, as well as the other stuff mentioned.

Im not a programer type, but i dont think you have to open the whole code to make such things, do you? Ive seen some ships-some Ijn cruisers and the Yamato (somewhere, i cant remember where), and those things appeared to be in the sim with bow waves etc. there is no flight model per se with such (just speed), and these would be very useful, since we have a naval sim without any ships to speak of and maps that are obviously not finished. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

I agree that the engine sounds are limited...Merlin and other inline engines dont sound like that. Ya got'em in CFS2.

and in CFS2, there are all sorts of high quality user made ships of many navies....including nearly ALL the ships that were at pearl harbor (no brit BBS on battleship row). even to this limited extent, user made stuff would be great and wouldnt effect the sim negatively i believe. cmpn makers could just include them in thier creations like many do in CFS2. unfortunately, the misn bldr of cfs2 is worthless and hates adon stuff, so.... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

I just think it would really enhance this sim with a minimum of contamination....we are to the point we are having to use "generic" battleships and carriers that look like the king george V and Saratoga.....and pearl is absurd looking and has F2As flying around, and guadalcanal has noplace the IJN can fly out of and almost none of the nearby islands of the slot. the standards of perfection went out with PF. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I love this sim, but since it's on the way out as the flagship of the 1c line, the only way to improve it is to allow more user input, even if it does not include flyable planes (maybe AI).
Its the only way a sufficient naval sim will ever come about it seems, and the only way i think this sim will actually come close to its potential. Oleg and his guys have been great, but i think they should be a little less restrictive at this late stage in the game. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

LEBillfish
06-12-2005, 11:57 PM
Hydra444, sadly I don't work like that....Had the idea and instantly posted my thoughts.

As to ships and adding other things...that is way way beyond the intent or scope of this proposed patch.....Such things would also mean altering the sim itself even if just an object.

This simply to do with things anyone can currently add on, it just puts some of the better ones into a single patch/add-on download.

Tater-SW-
06-13-2005, 12:34 AM
This is a great idea. It's the simplicity, and the fact that it works within the existing parameters that make it such a good idea. We're talking about things that are already done, they just have pointers to a specific file, or value. Change the value, or change the file, and you get changes with almost no effort.

Some specifics:

The engine supports "summer" and "winter" default skins, and those values seem to be associated with the maps themselves (as to what is summer, what is winter). The means we have TWO default skins for each plane. So far so good. In the PTO, "summer" and "winter" don;t mean much, but there is no reason to waste a "free" default skin. Simply call Early war "summer" and late war "winter." Assign early paint/markings to the one defaul, late to the other. If a map is useful both periods, make a copy of the map renamed for the other period.

Things like the time value for sinking ships (the time it takes to sink) might be increased. Just changing 1 number.

Tweaks to various objects in the FMB---not changing a model, but a numeric value associated with it (damage to destroy, if it has red/blue status (and so can be targetted), etc. In the same spirit as your idea. If 1C said "that isn't just one number, it's very complicated" we'd say "OK, forget it." KISS

The last bit might be that there have been "bugs" in the past that allowed mission builders to do some inventive things. They seem to get squashed, even if the net result of the "bug" was actually a good thing. Since we know it WAS possible, there are a few "bugs" that might be better if put back since they were all pro, no cons.

tater

HelSqnProtos
06-13-2005, 01:54 AM
<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">S~! Billfish

I only read the first page of this thread, I probably won't even bother to read your response to my post.No offense intended Madame just not a regular poster here. Never the less I will put in my two cents and allow you to pass judgement as you see fit.

Firstly, let me commend you for your spirit. It is great to see more and more people (women too) finding this magnificent game. Your efforts do you credit. I am not going to address each of your points. Many before me already have. I can tell you that MANY before you have tried to lobby for many of the things that you are speaking about.

The simple truth is that, while for many of us, myself included. This game, hobby, obsession, borders on being a compulsive behaviour. The people who actually get things included in the game are almost never "fans" They generally tend to be coders, programmers, specialists of one type or another. Oleg "listens" to them. as well he should. They actually have an understanding of the challenges he faces, and more importantly they have a better understanding of this "being a business"

I wont' get into the dynamics of game marketing with you. Suffice it to say, very little notice is paid to what is said in these forums. The are a pure fanboy excersise. The "true" fans, at least in my opinion, are the ones who play. The ones who form Squadrons, organize coops and online wars develop third party software, create movies, ect.......

The ones who build the community from the ground up. The ambassadors of the game if you will. The sad truth is that no one could give at toss about anyone at Ubi.Least of all Oleg. He loves his game and his fans. But Oleg does't sit up at night worrying about speech packs. He worries about things like competion from other games and maintaining the lead he has created.

This forum is not meant for serious discussion. These forums are mere a means for "marketing" to take place. When Oleg really cares about something, he goes there and posts himself. Generally in developer forums and russian forums. (Russians are amazing coders they have very logical and mathematical minds) All he does here is have a few trusted people monitor the forums to get a pulse,of the masses. What you or I think is totally insignificant to him.

This game is going to get a few more updates released before B.O.B. but not because we whine for new things. But because its good business. Have to keep the masses happy with bread and circuses. Do yourself a favour and give up on being a forum ace and concentrate on being a real one. Online at least. </span>

<span class="ev_code_PINK">Do you really want to do something for the game???


Join a Squadron, or better yet start one. A woman with your creativity could do much to trailblaze for female virtual aviators. Use your creativity for your benefit and the benefit of other virutal aviators of the fairer sex. In this forum you shall always be reactive NOT proactive.

Want Oleg to listen to you and respect what you have to say. Get a big and successful Squadron together. Look at Ross you think they post here??? But you can take it to the bank he listens to them. Anyway I am sure you will figure it out. You will grow tired of spinning your wheels here as so many others have. Unless of course your are a forum queen, in which case I take it all back. Talk is just talk, in the end it is the doing that counts.

So do.

If you need assistance to get something started,just click on my sig, it goes to our website, I also know of a couple of women pilots who might be interested.</span>