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XyZspineZyX
10-04-2003, 07:40 AM
I was just thinking about this. I've heard whispers around of Oleg Planning a new sim, whether or not this has any substance is not of my concern, but I put one question to all of you, do you think FB is still a profitable product?

I think it is, while it has it's problems, FB is still the best sim out there, and non of the problems it has are not fixable with the current game. But it is still profitable, by merely adding theatres to the Game, Eg. Pacific, France, North Africa South East England etc etc. and the aircraft to match, (the only real problem I can forsee is Carrier borne Aircraft, and whats the bet Oleg could work past that too). and sell them to his loyal followers (us). Now I dunno about you, but for a Battle of France and Britain add on, or North Africa or anything, I would be willing to to fork out another $50 US. because you are essentailly getting a New Game (Completely new theatres and problems, tactical situations etc etc.)

Please post your comments and thoughts.

Cheers lads.

XyZspineZyX
10-04-2003, 07:40 AM
I was just thinking about this. I've heard whispers around of Oleg Planning a new sim, whether or not this has any substance is not of my concern, but I put one question to all of you, do you think FB is still a profitable product?

I think it is, while it has it's problems, FB is still the best sim out there, and non of the problems it has are not fixable with the current game. But it is still profitable, by merely adding theatres to the Game, Eg. Pacific, France, North Africa South East England etc etc. and the aircraft to match, (the only real problem I can forsee is Carrier borne Aircraft, and whats the bet Oleg could work past that too). and sell them to his loyal followers (us). Now I dunno about you, but for a Battle of France and Britain add on, or North Africa or anything, I would be willing to to fork out another $50 US. because you are essentailly getting a New Game (Completely new theatres and problems, tactical situations etc etc.)

Please post your comments and thoughts.

Cheers lads.

XyZspineZyX
10-04-2003, 07:59 AM
As long as flight simulation games remain hard for the average user to play, they will dwell in the specialty isle of the gaming store. Another buggy version of the same thing just won't do. I've spoken with many gamers who won't buy a UBIsoft game. I can't blame them when you load IL-2 Forgotten Battles and then have to hunt the Scooby-Dooby-UBISoft site for the rts.dll file that actually, like, has data! I try to show them how beautiful the game looks on my computer, but they just say, "nope" and go about their business.

Go look at your favorite online forum and see how many people are playing IL-2 Forgotten Battles. Then go see how many are playing Command & Conquer (a game I don't play). Argue all you want about flight simmers playing offline more than others (what nonsense) and it still won't change a thing. UBISoft can start by not lying about what sort of PC specs. you'll need to run LOMAC in any meaningful way. The whole what, maybe 1,000,000 of us who bought this game that took longer to develop than a fantasy based game won't ever make up the difference. We are a demanding, whiney lot that forever wants more planes and more eye candy without addressing the bugs that exist with what we already have.





Luckyboy = senior hydraulic landing gear designer for the P-11

XyZspineZyX
10-04-2003, 08:09 AM
I don't think FB is going to be developped anymore. Maybe you won't even get all the numerous 3rd party models in this sim. There'll be a datadisk released with new planes and new maps but after that, I think FB won't be developped anymore.

Oleg is going to concentrate on his next sim. In an interview long ago, it was rumored he allready signed a contract with UBI for his next three(!) flightsims!!

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2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye
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XyZspineZyX
10-04-2003, 08:34 AM
Well I dunno if FB is going to be further developed. Personnly it has everything on the box it said it did so I don't really care. It would be nice to get some more planes yet I've spent 2 months already just trying to get 1 down pat.

I think it's far from dying though. All your hard core sim'ers will stick around long after the game people have gone on to lastest eye candy game.

The bugs I dunno, and I have no idea what that .dll you posted above is for. The game has been running fine, and looks goo to me. In fact most games 9 times out of 10 I'll turn the graphics, and sound quality down to maximize my FPS.

I could care less about flying a awesome looking game with choppy flying. I'd rather have it silky smooth and oh well if I can't see myself in the river when I fly over or whatever.

I think with things like the VEF, and the VOW going on it'll be around awhile.

As far as all the bugs, and aircraft FM problems I blame it on those who find them. 95% of the people would never know the difference. Then someone posts that the 109's turning is all wrong. Then many others join in on the bandwagon.

Thats a bad example though as it did change drastically from version to version. However if they had started playing with 1.11 they would never had known the difference.

It's just like watching a movie. You always have someone who wants to point out all the mistakes rather than just sit back, and enjoy the movie.

Every take-off is optional, but every landing is mandatory!

XyZspineZyX
10-04-2003, 10:00 AM
Well said Hopperfly. but still. FB does have alot of developement potentail. and I mean, it's not like theres anything out there that competes with it at any level.

XyZspineZyX
10-04-2003, 10:54 AM
ok How about two development teams?
team 1- making new game 12-18 months down the track
team 2- making patches so fb continues to sell to those that havnt purchased yet because its to "buggy", and they also make make those pay-for add ons like north afrika/med and the pacific to finance themselves

all under the direction of Oleg, sounds great to me

Konigwolf

XyZspineZyX
10-04-2003, 11:37 AM
Hi,

This is so called aftermarket which makes the difference.

IL2 is a closed system without published interface for third-party add-ons, so there is no aftermarket for it.

Having possibility to add (at least) your own maps and probably to hook more advanced hardware than single-screen PCs would move this sim otside pure entertainment sector.

Unfortunately I haven't heard anything from mr. Maddox indicating that he even remotely considered this route.

So the expected lifetime will be exactly as long as untill someone else come with something comparable but without those obvious limitations.


Regards,
/Chris Z.

XyZspineZyX
10-04-2003, 02:19 PM
There are still newbees coming in on a regular basis. I assume its tapered off from the past but the amount of members still joining has been a surprise to me. The AI is smart enough that future aircraft and theaters should sustain this sim's enjoyment for those who have experience with it.

I think in the midst of next year when clearly more capable computers are on the market, many people buying new ones or upgrading with much more serious graphics capability, will have the power to deal with such a resource hog. A mid-level system might run this on perfect or close to it without any noticeable annoyance. Graphics will sell and for many with no combat flight sim experience the ability to jump right into this with all its glory might be very tantalizing. Assuming the patch will be basically complete as one easy download and you never know.

By then the main factor may be the learning curve, but like others have pointed out you'll never get past that limiting quality of human nature. A sim like this will always be for the special few. Those with a calling - willing to make the sacrifice - for everlasting glory in the skies of fantasy. Especially left-handed users.

XyZspineZyX
10-04-2003, 02:35 PM
ChrisZakrewsky wrote:
- Having possibility to add (at least) your own maps
- and probably to hook more advanced hardware than
- single-screen PCs would move this sim otside pure
- entertainment sector.

FB is already too complex as it is to make user mods easily. Only a couple of guys in the whole community have the free time required to finish models in a reasonable timeframe. It's a massive task and things won't get better in the future.

I honestly think we are living the final days of user-made mods in PC games.

Regarding the future of FB it would be a mistake for 1C to develop a new game from scratch. It'll be much more sensible to keep evolving the game, building from the proven strenghs. My feeling is that this is the way Oleg is already moving IL2 forward (FB is just the first step in the line).

http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/haddock/sig/J8_01.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-04-2003, 02:36 PM
This is.. hand's down.. the ultimate combat flight sim. The graphics look incredible and the mind boggling depth to this game will keep me -for one- playing it for as long as i'm able!

Addons and patches will no doubt appeal to new consumers too.. If your PC can run it.. buy it.

-I think FB has staying power

XyZspineZyX
10-04-2003, 02:50 PM
nixon-fiend wrote:
Addons and patches will no doubt appeal to new
- consumers too.. If your PC can run it.. buy it.


How would the consumer know? By reading the box it came in? I think not!





Luckyboy = senior hydraulic landing gear designer for the P-11

XyZspineZyX
10-04-2003, 04:57 PM
arcadeace wrote:
- The AI is smart enough that future
- aircraft and theaters should sustain this sim's
- enjoyment for those who have experience with it.

I'm sorry but the AI is surely one of the worst parts of the game. It can't use energy fighters (basically all german planes) worth a damn.

I will go even further saying that the game currently only shines for dogfights on the net. It's ok for coops and so-so for single player, after the novelty wears out. Of course, since there is no other WWII game of this scope out, every sim aficionado is playing it.

There are other things than AI hampering single player & coops (wingman commands, formation spacing that makes wingmen crash, and a couple of other minor things), but rest assured that when no one will play anymore FB on the net (e.g. in a year from now), the game will fade quite quickly right because of the AI.

It just isn't fun: if you play german, your side seems made of ******s that are easily shot down by planes from five years earlier than yours and less exeprienced pilots; if you play russian you will barely need to point your gun in the direction of enemies, because they will try to turn with you and lose the fight in no time.

What is burning me is the fact that so much time has been spent tweaking planes here and there, and apart from fixes to the campaign engine from Starshoy, very little has been done for the supposedly important "offliners" market. Improvements to the AI alone would change the face of this otherwise great product.

Or, it could be that those who play LW are all masochists and all who play Allies can't stand a good fight, but a doubt it.

XyZspineZyX
10-04-2003, 05:12 PM
I would hope that the main interest would be to fix the game that's already out. The same game that ruined the best flight sim out there IL-2. FB is the worst 50 dollar patch ever.

XyZspineZyX
10-04-2003, 05:20 PM
True IL2 has a double edged sword with it's closed code.

On one hand if it was open lots of aircraft would be included. On the other hand it would make it easy to cheat.



Every take-off is optional, but every landing is mandatory!

XyZspineZyX
10-04-2003, 05:42 PM
Gawd, your all miserable sods aren't ya. /i/smilies/16x16_robot-very-happy.gif

Just remember, the AI isn't any better in any other sim. Hell, in CFS3 they don't even try and get away when ya try to kill them!

as for the closed Code, I think it's a good thing. it's not like we're not getting aircraft added, but this way, we can unsure thier quality.

XyZspineZyX
10-04-2003, 05:56 PM
FB is a great sim, and will be much much better after the 1.2 patch. It has been around for a while, so interest is wearing down a bit, but I think there is still enough life in it to keep going.

It's not the sim, it's what you do with it. There are several leagues out there for different kinds of play. I am currently completing Ghost Skies, a dog fighting league that doesn't lock the player into one setting or another. It will offer many different match types which will keep the participants interested and excited for the forseeable future.

Don't count FB out. The best is yet to come!

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XyZspineZyX
10-04-2003, 06:21 PM
Blimey.. all those complains about the AI. You obviously weren't around in the good old days when Chuck Yeager's Air Combat was considered to be hardcore. We've come so far, and I'm most grateful for every little new feature, even if the AI is still not that smart. It's just a game you see.

Sometimes I've got the feeling some people expect a NASA flightsim for just 40 Euros.

Funny /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

But FB has a bright future ahead. The AI can be tweaked, and I'm sure it will be tweaked in the future. Like so many other things. It's an evolving process. Just be patient.

Young people... the more you have the less you appreciate it. If you only had seen Sublogic's Jet all those years ago. Bah!

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/haddock/sig/J8_01.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-04-2003, 06:22 PM
Double post - Bugger

Message Edited on 10/04/0307:10PM by Capt_Haddock

XyZspineZyX
10-04-2003, 06:23 PM
Triple post - Sorry

Message Edited on 10/04/0307:02PM by Capt_Haddock

XyZspineZyX
10-04-2003, 06:38 PM
TRIPLE POST HAX0R!!

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XyZspineZyX
10-04-2003, 07:21 PM
Capt_Haddock wrote:
- Blimey.. all those complains about the AI. You
- obviously weren't around in the good old days when
- Chuck Yeager's Air Combat was considered to be
- hardcore. We've come so far, and I'm most grateful
- for every little new feature, even if the AI is
- still not that smart. It's just a game you see.
-
- Sometimes I've got the feeling some people expect a
- NASA flightsim for just 40 Euros.
-
- Funny /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif -
- But FB has a bright future ahead. The AI can be
- tweaked, and I'm sure it will be tweaked in the
- future. Like so many other things. It's an evolving
- process. Just be patient.
-
- Young people... the more you have the less you
- appreciate it. If you only had seen Sublogic's Jet
- all those years ago. Bah!

Dear Captain, yes, I played Jet on the C= 64 when it came out. I played also other games featuring planes before that, namely Spitfire Ace, Solo Flight, and Sublogic FS II.. They were the reason why I started learning the english language in the first place.. So many keys and features and the manuals were in english! I am _that_ old.

So, I can appreciate the advancements we had in this technology.

I think you can spare me the "NASA sim for 40 bucks" comment, because that is exactly the opposite of what I'm asking!

This is too much of a NASA sim and too little of a game: seem that it's perfectly ok to come out with charts from 60 years ago, discuss them ad nauseam, and somehow the dev team listens to these people; but asking for gameplay related features doesn't seem to draw the developer's attention, only off-the-mark comments like that of yours.

Gameplay-related features have been relegated to the back seat in FB, unfortunately, in all development stages: planning, coding, fixing. I want to keep this message short, so I won't list all of the things that are wrong with gameplay, but I can do that on request. They are so obvious.

This is why the sim is mostly a feast for the eyes and a great dogfighter, and so many people here come discussing only about flight model, but a so-so single player game.

XyZspineZyX
10-04-2003, 07:53 PM
Point taken Maxmars /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

I have to agree that gameplay should be the backbone of any game, and probably the biggest possible improvement in the future of FB.

We need to bring back the fun into the realistic flightsims, and if improving the AI helps, then you must be right /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/haddock/sig/J8_01.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-04-2003, 09:16 PM
FUTURE FB???

Well lads as I have seen Il-2 FB for sale for 10 Euro allready it means it is a game/sim that has had his days. Seen from a commercial point of view that is. That the small community of diehard simmers thinks different is not realistic.
FB for the main stream is to hard to handle it looks great but it is to hard to fly for some.
if you look at the number of simmers online on a normal day on HL, Ubi-server or All Seeing Eye it says it all it is not much. If you look at for example at mainstream games like bf1942 etc etc. FB is a small fish and it will in the long run end as a very nice sim but commercial wise a bad thing. So Fb will run for a long time, but as soon as a new sim like the wispered BOB version of olegs masterpiece comes out FB will end up like EAW, great sim but forgotten.

MY TWO CENTS!!!!

BRING ON THE SPIT!!!!!!

XyZspineZyX
10-04-2003, 09:17 PM
By the way you have some nice biplanes in your sig.. They are finnish, aren't they? What planes are them?

Right now I am playing only early fins campaigns as they have the brewster and the hurry, which are good TnB planes, so the AI can effectively make good use of them, which brings a balanced campaign. I'm becoming curious of everything finnish. :-)

XyZspineZyX
10-04-2003, 10:23 PM
It's a Gloster Gladiator J8A. The version used by the F19, a Swedish volunteer squadron in the winter war, when they helped Finland against the Russian invasion.

One day (I hope soon) you'll see it in FB /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/haddock/il2/renders/glad_08.jpg

If you are interested in the period this is a good place to start http://www.f19vs.tk/ (just go to their links)
These guys have been (and still are) incredibly helful with the research I needed to model this plane. I simply couldn't have done it without them, specially F19_Orheim and his sick attention to detail /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/haddock/sig/J8_01.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-04-2003, 10:35 PM
Capt_Haddock wrote:
- It's a Gloster Gladiator J8A. The version used by
- the F19, a Swedish volunteer squadron in the winter
- war, when they helped Finland against the Russian
- invasion.
-
- One day (I hope soon) you'll see it in FB /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Ah so you modeled it? Hats off! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Stolen the link and thank you! Waiting to fly that! (and Xanty's CR.42, the other biplane that I'm waiting for)

XyZspineZyX
10-04-2003, 10:41 PM
you guys will make me cry http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-04-2003, 11:12 PM
It's ok - lacks some immersion.

Next step to me is building up a bigger arena with more aircraft in the sky.

Start incorporating a ground game as well.

A flight sim alone appeals to the dogfighters, but many more want something further than just dogfights every day.

Virtual wars are ok, but lack the continuity and the ability to hop in and contribute to your team.



S!
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adlabs6
10-05-2003, 12:10 AM
Honestly, I hope that Maddox is moving on from the underlying code in IL2/FB. I would be completely happy if graphics were retained fully, exactly as we have them now. What I most hope for is an rewrite of what's underneath those graphics. I am not conviced that the entire "core" of the IL2/FB engine is flexible nor powerful enough to be a solid performer after many more patches. Given the current difficulty with sound, trim model, weather model, collisions, on and on, I can't feel excited about paying another $40 for basically what I have right now in another box.

If Maddox Games is going to show off what's next in flight sims on Oct. 5 (I hope they do!), I'm going to be listening closely. I think Oleg just needs a stronger piece of code to work with. The efforts so far in IL2/FB have made a thing of great beauty, community who enjoys the product is great, and the future looks to grow. I think with a solidified foundation, things will only head upwards.



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XyZspineZyX
10-05-2003, 12:24 AM
Hi,

No, not neccessarily.

Servers could be easily limited to stock (untinkered) planes only. But, for the record, I haven't implicated user-developed planes. Only maps and hardware hooks.

Never underestimate what a real show-stopper-gizmo means when trying to get the market attention. I have seen this happening numerous times right in front of my eyes (I'm a commercial programmer) and I have an idea what kind of catalysator is necessary to materialize it.

Unless mr. Maddox have a very clever market plan of which we've seen just a small part, or he has a very different perspective than most of us living in US or Western Europe... alas lion part of his market is right here.


Best!
/Chris Z.


Hopperfly22 wrote:
- True IL2 has a double edged sword with it's closed
- code.
-
- On one hand if it was open lots of aircraft would be
- included. On the other hand it would make it easy
- to cheat.

XyZspineZyX
10-05-2003, 04:30 AM
This is amazing thread. Be Sure.

Thanks fellas/fellettes. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


~ Lois_Lane, FMB Whiner

XyZspineZyX
10-05-2003, 08:11 AM
As for myself, I hope that development and add-ons continue. this is a good enough sim out of the box that it would be a shame if this was it.

I think of how long Falcon 4.0 has lasted. I look at the literally hunderds of mods that Morrowind or Battlefield 1942 have. All that needs to happen is let the source code loose in the hands of the many people who can do something with it. The entire WW II theatre could be available to us from the Spanish Civil War to Korea. We could have an interesting SWOTL mod. What part of the war do you like? A mod could be available.

If that were to happen this sim would'nt die until a much better graphics engine was developed. Todays "Uber Computer" could remain viable for years instead of months.

But then again we're dealing with a huge corporate entity. And all they look at is the bottom line.

Anybody want to donate their 100 million dollar lottery winnings to the community?

Just my .005 cents worth (after taxes).

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