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Grey_Mouser67
06-26-2005, 05:17 PM
I posted this as a possbile bug...I fly both offline and online and mostly allies offline and mixed online

Just wondering if anyone noticed... I mostly notice this vs Bf109's and Fw190's not because there is a slant but because that is what I mostly fight...I'm finding that the AI is much faster than they used to be...in fact, unrealistically so and I'm wondering if anyone has noticed it besides me or has a way to test to confirm or deny this.

I was outrun and outclimbed, I was in pursuit, beyond critical altitude in my P-47D22 till about 22,500 against a Fw190A5...then he broke turn and climbed as I turned inside him and he just pulled away again. Even my wingman seemed to be flying much faster than me catching up handily...eventually he began to manuever and slow down and I caught up to him and ran out of ammo trying to shoot him down.

Then I flew a P-38J and let some bad guys get behind me at about 18,000 ft...the Bf109G6's stayed with me about .5km behind so I went into a shallow dive and leveled out at 14,000 ft and they stayed right with me and never got further than .55km away...then i dove sharply to 5000 ft and they stayed with me, closed the gap and shot me down....I was looking for critical altitudes the J was faster...even though it was faster at all altitudes in real life and in patch 3.04! Didn't matter...they were too fast or I was too slow.

I fly with complex engine management and all that other stuff in the on position. I like more challenging AI but not this way...we went away from bat manuevers to the grand prix...or so it seems to me....I'm beginning to miss 3.04 more and more...I feel like the global changes made to the FM affect some aircraft more than others...maybe the AI can fly the plane perfectly straight and humans can't so they get a performance edge...I don't know...might be aircraft specific as opposed to an AI bug too.

I'd like to test it on other aircraft but you just can't get the AI to behave the way you want...or at least I haven't been able to. Might be some prop pitch settings now as well...looking for opinions and answers.

FritzGryphon
06-26-2005, 06:07 PM
I concur, they do seem much fater than the 1.04 counterparts.

I'll see if maybe it's possible to test the AI's acceleration or something.

snafu73
06-26-2005, 06:52 PM
I think the AI tend to fly more in straight lines more now instead of turn fighting, and also when the B-25's were dog fighting (I dont know if they still do) the enemy planes they were dog fighting with seemed to deliberately not accelerate away from them. That seems to have changed with the new patch.

FritzGryphon
06-26-2005, 07:58 PM
Well, I tried this:

20km race between human and AI 109G2. Both start at 300km/h, and the second waypoint is for 666km/h (which is higher than the plane's topspeed, btw), and saw who got to the finish first. Used icons to tell exact spacing.

Using 110% power, I beat the AI easily, by about 2 klicks. Listening to the engine (which was doing fewer revs than mine), it seems the AI was only using 100% power.

I tried the test again, and I only used 100% power. This time it was closer, but I still won. This is probably because the AI had it's radiator open a little.

Then, just to see what would happen, I shot the AI plane with some bullets. For a short period, the AI started using WEP (could hear revs increase), and started to pull away from me. After a few seconds, he returned to 100% power, and I caught up.

As far as I can tell, the AI has the same FM when it comes to speed. It appeared to accelerate at the same rate as I, and reached about the same topspeed as I. The differences were due to different throttle, and the fact that the AI uses auto radiator settings.

Because the AI flies much more coordinated than your average human, I would expect the AI to consistantly outrun you, given equal starting conditions and equal throttle.

I'll try the same thing, with an enemy AI plane, and see if he can catch me. I wonder if the enemy AI will use WEP, and for how long.

FritzGryphon
06-26-2005, 11:16 PM
Did same test, this time with P-40Es, and with the other plane being enemy, and 1km behind me.

Using 110% power in level flight at 150m alt, I easily outstripped the P40. Over a 10km dash, I managed to pull away 500m (5% faster).

Using 100% power, the enemy P-40 gained 30m during the 10km dash (0.3% faster).

So it seems the AI, when chasing you, will use 100% power. The acceleration and topspeed of the AI plane are the same as the human, at least in level flight, and using P-40.

geetarman
06-27-2005, 10:33 AM
Yeah, I thought I noticed the same thing too. Go one-on-one with a 190 or 109 and they immediately go defensive. They fly in long arcs and run from you. Hard to get angles on them.

I don't think (and your test proved it) it's a bug issue though. The ACE AI just flys pretty well!

Brain32
06-27-2005, 11:40 AM
As an almost strict offliner I must say I noticed speedy AI, but I think they are simply better at "keeping the dog in the house" than we are(were). Perfect rudder trimming really helps(tested) I did not noticed the effect of the WEP though, I have no problems chasing or running away with P-38(I guessed that was because it seems that twin engined planes are not so affected by new torque modelling).

Grey_Mouser67
06-27-2005, 11:52 AM
good to know I wasn't imagining things...the Fw incident was aggrevating, but I was not aware of the energy state prior to the fight as much as the 109...that episode was just all wrong.... I should have pulled away in the dive, but that has never been right for many aircraft but once I leveled out, the 109 refused to bleed E and just stayed with me for quite a long while...I wasn't getting shot at, but I couldn't lose him either....

That is a very aggrevating offline phenom when an ai gets on your tail and just follows you endlessly around...zekes are notorious for that and getting your squadmates to shoot them is difficult at best. Seems like this may have been changed a bit for the better but i'll have to do more observing.

Willey
06-27-2005, 11:54 AM
Well, the P-51 eats 262s for breakfast, because the latter is anything but fast. Even straight on it does never exceed some 550 or so http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Brain32
06-27-2005, 12:10 PM
Well, the P-51 eats 262s for breakfast, because the latter is anything but fast. Even straight on it does never exceed some 550 or so

Yes, I know what you mean, imagine what's the situation vs yp-80 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

SeaFireLIV
06-27-2005, 12:15 PM
When I first flew in 4.01 it seemed to me that AI aircraft were too fast, but they`re not. What`s happened is Oleg`s released their restriction so now they`ll use as much power as they have available to them. They never did this before in any version.

This is most obvious when flying something like the I16 against the early 109s. Before you could catch them, now, there`s no way once they start running (unless damaged).

But there`s another reason: The Human having to understand the new fms of 4.01... read on:

I discovered that if you fly your aircraft inefficiently you`ll have a tough time getting near any plane or outrunning them. For the 1st 3 or 4 missions I felt almost lost, nearly every time I felt like I was floundering and returned to base empty-handed. This was because of my bad handling/misunderstanding of the new FMs.

But I learned, and suddenly started picking off planes.

It`s better now, because the AI are using the true speed available to them and the player/pilot is having to get used to his new fms learning how to pull the effective speed, etc out of his plane. The AI`s already programmed to this, he doesn`t need to `learn`.

Makes sense?

Brain32
06-27-2005, 12:21 PM
Well that's what I said(maybe I used bad expression) when you properly trim your plane(compesate for torque effect) you obviously get less drag and can keep up with them, ofcourse proper engine management is a requirement also...

geetarman
06-27-2005, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
When I first flew in 4.01 it seemed to me that AI aircraft were too fast, but they`re not. What`s happened is Oleg`s released their restriction so now they`ll use as much power as they have available to them. They never did this before in any version.

This is most obvious when flying something like the I16 against the early 109s. Before you could catch them, now, there`s no way once they start running (unless damaged).

But there`s another reason: The Human having to understand the new fms of 4.01... read on:

I discovered that if you fly your aircraft inefficiently you`ll have a tough time getting near any plane or outrunning them. For the 1st 3 or 4 missions I felt almost lost, nearly every time I felt like I was floundering and returned to base empty-handed. This was because of my bad handling/misunderstanding of the new FMs.

But I learned, and suddenly started picking off planes.

It`s better now, because the AI are using the true speed available to them and the player/pilot is having to get used to his new fms learning how to pull the effective speed, etc out of his plane. The AI`s already programmed to this, he doesn`t need to `learn`.

Makes sense?

Yes, perfectly and well done! The "new AI" may not be great in combat, but, out of the shoot, they fly better than most humans! "It" gets the most out of the plane, while many of us are still learning how to fly straight.

Grey_Mouser67
06-27-2005, 07:17 PM
Well after another match up with AI, I am convinced they have an advantage....

I started a dogfight between Spitfire Mk IXc's and Bf109G-6's at 25,000 ft.

After dueling and shooting down a fellow, two 109's climbed to my height...probably only 1000 ft below...point is they were at an energy disadvantage and we went full circle i'd estimate 1.5x....I was able to turn inside and slowly gain but when I got about .6km away the 109 simply straightened out and litterally walked away from me...in very short order he was .85km and then turned again.

There is no way a 109G6 ever had a speed advantage over a Spitfire at those altitudes...much less climb up there and then proceed to walk away...something is fishy and I'd ask that you all keep an eye open for these things and report them. We gave up one issue and I hope we didn't get another one.

Now it might be that it requires a different prop pitch to gain certain speeds, but I've not seen anywhere that you turned rpms down on a CSP to go faster!