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View Full Version : To ram or not to ram....



XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 04:11 PM
...that is the question?

Here's the scenario.

Having spotted a TB3 fully laden and moving like a pregnant hippo across the skies, I straffed the beast several time in my Dora only inflicting minor damage and sustaining a troublesome engine oil leak. The enemy was closing in on our air base and I could sense the trigger finger itching to drop it's payload. Having no ammunition left I decided that a sacrifice for my country was in order and promptly ended both our lives (and saving some in the process) by ramming the swine.

On a 90% real server I reckon that was fair if a little unrealistic for a German pilot (I've read plenty account of Russian pilots ramming but not German ones).

What do you think?

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 04:11 PM
...that is the question?

Here's the scenario.

Having spotted a TB3 fully laden and moving like a pregnant hippo across the skies, I straffed the beast several time in my Dora only inflicting minor damage and sustaining a troublesome engine oil leak. The enemy was closing in on our air base and I could sense the trigger finger itching to drop it's payload. Having no ammunition left I decided that a sacrifice for my country was in order and promptly ended both our lives (and saving some in the process) by ramming the swine.

On a 90% real server I reckon that was fair if a little unrealistic for a German pilot (I've read plenty account of Russian pilots ramming but not German ones).

What do you think?

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 04:21 PM
MB_Lerxster wrote:

- What do you think?

I think that is totally UNCOOL!! Sure your a *giver* and one *brave* son of a XXXX when the bullets are not real and your life is not on the line... *BUT* it takes bomber sim pilots a long Long LONG TIME to get up to alt, wade through all the flack and stuff only to be RAMMED by some pin head.. I tell you.. not many things make me mad on-line... getting vultched is no bigge to me.. but getting rammed by some guy who does not know how to fly and fight a bomber.. Well that does make me mad. Go fly a simulated bomber mission on line for 45 min.. get within visual distance of your target and then have someone ram you and then you tell me

What do you think!!!

Jezzzzzzzzzzsh!


<div style="width:1024;color:F0FFFF;fontsize:11pt;filter: glow[color=black,strength=8)">
<h2> TAGERT</h2>
<marquee><h3>If WAR was not the ANSWER........ Than what the H was your QUESTION?</h3></marquee>
</div>

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 04:24 PM
Get Fw190A9 with 2xMk108 and you don't bother with the question; instead you just squize trigger and fly right through the debris....

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 04:25 PM
Don't ram people, expecially not TB3's! If I were in a TB3 having flown for 15 mins through enemy flak and fighters just to get rammed by someone just before bomb release I would hate that person for the rest of my life, computer game or not. If he came that far he deserves some satisfaction /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 04:28 PM
IIJG54_Engel wrote:
- Don't ram people, expecially not TB3's! If I were in
- a TB3 having flown for 15 mins through enemy flak
- and fighters just to get rammed by someone just
- before bomb release I would hate that person for the
- rest of my life, computer game or not. If he came
- that far he deserves some satisfaction

EXACTALLY! If you take me out with bullets just before the target FINE! No Problem what so ever.. But if you just dont know how to fly your aircraft and your RAM me.. that is real Real REAL BAD! And Ill be mad for a few min.. *BUT* if you *intentally* RAM ME! GOD! If I could get my 6'4" 225lb hands around your neck I would twist it of them useless little sholders of yours and toss it in the can! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


<div style="width:1024;color:F0FFFF;fontsize:11pt;filter: glow[color=black,strength=8)">
<h2> TAGERT</h2>
<marquee><h3>If WAR was not the ANSWER........ Than what the H was your QUESTION?</h3></marquee>
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Zayets
11-04-2003, 04:31 PM
Want to kill the beast faster? Take an IL2-3M and use the big cannon for 2 seconds. There you go! Your pride is saved. I know that D9 is lacking an BIG punch ,but have you tried A5?

Zayets out

http://www.arr.go.ro/iar81c.JPG

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 04:42 PM
IRL, the D-9 was effective in shooting down all Allied heavy bombers. It should be effective in FB against the TB-3.

Also, LW deployed special destroyer units in the West to ram bombers if necessary.


<center><img src= "http://perso.wanadoo.fr/christophe.arribat/stoffwjabo.jpg" height=205 width=385>

<center>"We are now in a position of inferiority...There is no doubt in my mind, nor in the minds of my fighter pilots, that the FW190 is the best all-round fighter in the world today."

British Air Marshall, Sholto Douglas, 17 July 1942

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 04:44 PM
The main thing about attacking TB3s is to come from above, at an angle that the gunners can't hit you and work one spot on one wing each pass, zooming back up over the TB3 out of the gunner's range everytime.

Even in a 2-20mm LA7, I have had good luck downing TB3's this way, while taking minimal damage. Another approach that works well is a direct approach from underneath and you spray the pit area from underneath. I've killed many pilots this way as well.

As far as ramming, I've found a neat way to take them down once you run out of ammo and that biatch is still flying. Get about 1000m above the TB3 and get a fast dive going at 600+ and aim for either wing tip with your plane. Due to the interesting collision model in FB, nine out of ten times, you'll take his wingtip, downing him and receive no damage, hehe./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Hey, whatever works, right?!? lol

_______________________________________
çk?¯kT 2003**

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 04:44 PM
Hmmm.....

Well, some German pilots did go for ramming attacks.... but maybe not suicide ones....

"I continued firing with the machine guns, but surely with these alone I would not be avble to send down this four engined bomber. The rear gunner of the bomber must have been killed instantly because his machine guns were silent. I came closer, fired again until the last of my ammunition had gone. What now? I was 20 metres behind the bomber, which made the craziest turns and tried to get away in the dark. The only thing I could still do was to ram him. Slowly I came closer. It was difficult to keep the aircraft steady in his slipstream but I succeded. My propeller crashed into the Englishman's rudder and tore it to shreads. The Englishman zoomed downward; my own machine went out of control and I was thrown out. While floating down with my parachute I lost the bomber in the darkness. Then suddenly I saw a great fire-glow down below. It had spattered with it's bombs into a meadow. I came down not far away, and a quater of an hour later I stood near the widely scattered pieces of wreckage, near a large crater in the ground.... somewhat further away, some cows stood lowing."

-Feldwebel Richard Heesoth, Bf-109 Nightfighter Pilot on attacking a British heavy bomber after a cannon jam.


So ramming attacks are fine as long as you have no ammo, your pilot survives, and oh, mind the cows too /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Gunther Rall

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 04:50 PM
I try and not ram...I unfortunately made the mistake against a TB-3 the other day...swept 20mm cannon fire all across the plane, he was badly damaged with fuel leaks and one engine smoking and probably about to light on fire...unfortunately my speed was so high that when I pulled up my wing clipped the centerline of the TB-3. We both blew up.

I don't ever try to RAM. If the bomber gets the airbase, I take off again and shoot him down on the way back http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/temp_sig.jpg
"Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few." - Winston Churchill

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 04:51 PM
Guys Guys Guys... this aint about some once in a blue moon situation.. Im sure there was a guy.. several guys in WWII that gave thier life to save the people they love below.. Thus on rare ocations it was a realistic tatic.. And this aint about which Lw AC would do a better job againts a TB3.. This is about some weak kneed guy who is real brave when he knows that he aint going to really die taking his aircraft and ramming it into a bomber... WOW! WHAT A GIVER!! I just think it real HURTS online game play when guys like that log in.. bomber pilots are few.. and when they do fly it makes for a very fun and realistic experance online.. But all it takes is on spinless dweeb to start ramming and the whole imersion thing is blown.. and the bomber pilots get discusted and leave... I wish the servers could detect people that ram bombers and BAN THEM!!



<div style="width:1024;color:F0FFFF;fontsize:11pt;filter: glow[color=black,strength=8)">
<h2> TAGERT</h2>
<marquee><h3>If WAR was not the ANSWER........ Than what the H was your QUESTION?</h3></marquee>
</div>

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 04:52 PM
Yeah..ramming bombers is not a good idea. Tagert pretty much summed up my feeling. I have crashed into them on occasion in a 109 because their gunners have taken out my controls as I was making a run at them.

But intentionally ramming is not really something you should do in servers since it turns bomber pilots off, and we want them to enjoy flying online as much as their fighter-pilot counterparts.

<CENTER>http://home.cogeco.ca/~jkinley/FB_JG27.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 04:52 PM
Well, we're talking about a computer game here aren't we. And you're right, the Germans didn't do it. Tarans always seem to be portrayed these days as having been selfless, heroic acts. Really, tarans were wasteful, stupid and most of the time unecessary.

And they are pretty much in-game as well. You only get full credit for points scored if you land successfully (in DF servers). And in online wars the most important thing is survival. So it doesn't make much sense here either.

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 04:54 PM
i ram sometimes, but offline, its actully quiet hard sometimes
often u die too /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
oh and do it over friendly terroitory

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 04:54 PM
A way I found is to press ctrl+e and, in the meantime from the "preparation" for your jump, hit your wing with his own, and almost instantantly your pilot will bail.
But it's plain cruelty with TB3's /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif ....

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<

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 05:16 PM
Tagert wrote:
"Go fly a simulated bomber mission on line for 45 min.. get within visual distance of your target and then have someone ram you and then you tell me What do you think!!!"


I'll tell you what I think, even though I don't fly online.
Here's what I think:

"All is fair in love and war."

That is what I think. Anybody else???

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin - 1755

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 05:21 PM
That ranks right up there - with someone vulching and running out of ammo then making one more swoop only to ram your AC on the ground then chat back "I owned you - woohoo - S~"

I agree with the others - the bombers bring a new element to the game - and I fly bombers on occasion - let me tell you they don;t climb like the others - they are a pain to get to altitude - they fly slow - it usually take me a good 15 minutes to get within bomb range running at least 4500meters - I sure don't want to be rammed - if you run out of ammo - make it back to base - respawn and try to get emt then - in the meantime count you losses should my bombs hit target...

Whoever said they don;t mind vulching - you obviously either (a) don;t play in the servers I play in - where they won;t even let you start you engine before they vulch you again - or (b) are a vulcher yourself...

I will strafe - not vulch - I make one pass low - hit what I can - take it to alt - look for a group to wing with and start the DF if one is in the area -

If there are any AAA guns around - I will go for those first and foremost...

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 05:23 PM
IIJG54_Engel wrote:
- Don't ram people, expecially not TB3's! If I were in
- a TB3 having flown for 15 mins through enemy flak
- and fighters just to get rammed by someone just
- before bomb release I would hate that person for the
- rest of my life, computer game or not.

I bet you really hated the Kamikaze .. huh? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<center>http://www.medals.org.uk/united-kingdom/images/uk654.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 05:36 PM
takes a few passes but you can usually bring 'em down.

ramming is bad form (but inadvertenly crashing into a bomber becasue of incompetence is unavoidable).

http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_07.gif


She turned me into a newt, but I got better.

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 05:39 PM
mortoma wrote:

- I'll tell you what I think, even though I don't fly
- online.
- Here's what I think:
-
- "All is fair in love and war."
-
- That is what I think. Anybody else???

WOW! Another brave man trying to justify he ramming skills.. sad.. very Very VERY sad!

<div style="width:1024;color:F0FFFF;fontsize:11pt;filter: glow[color=black,strength=8)">
<h2> TAGERT</h2>
<marquee><h3>If WAR was not the ANSWER........ Than what the H was your QUESTION?</h3></marquee>
</div>

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 05:40 PM
Tagert,

Please calm down. You are being rude to another member because of your particular feelings about a game.

A game.

Once again, with your shouting and coarse behavior, you are showing your childish side. Recently, you have been doing better, but here again you are acting badly to someone who wanted to come online and talk about his experiences.

Tagert, sure, disagree with him, but stop trying to stomp all over him by screaming and pointing and other obviously inappropriate actions.

Remember we are trying to raise the quality of this forum.

Thank you,

IF

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 05:47 PM
BM357_Disciple wrote:
- That ranks right up there - with someone vulching
- and running out of ammo then making one more swoop
- only to ram your AC on the ground then chat back "I
- owned you - woohoo - S~"

Yup that is the best definition of a N00B or Dweeb I can think of!

- I agree with the others - the bombers bring a new
- element to the game - and I fly bombers on occasion
- - let me tell you they don;t climb like the others -
- they are a pain to get to altitude - they fly slow -
- it usually take me a good 15 minutes to get within
- bomb range running at least 4500meters - I sure
- don't want to be rammed - if you run out of ammo -
- make it back to base - respawn and try to get emt
- then - in the meantime count you losses should my
- bombs hit target...

Agreed 100%

- Whoever said they don;t mind vulching - you
- obviously either (a) don;t play in the servers I
- play in - where they won;t even let you start you
- engine before they vulch you again - or (b) are a
- vulcher yourself...

no to (a) and yes to (b)... As I said, I dont mind being vultched either.. vultching was a very realistic thing in WWII... much more frequent then ramming a bomber! many Many MANY accounts of it happening! I look at it in a PATON kind of way...

<h2>"If your dumb enough to keep rolling from a CAPPED field where you just died a second ago due to a vultch... Then Im actually doing your country a favor by taking you out of the gene pool!"</h2> /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

The only time I would complain is if there was ONLY one base to take off from.. but I would usally leave an arena with only one base per side.. Then tend to be Quake like shoot em ups anyways.

- I will strafe - not vulch - I make one pass low -
- hit what I can - take it to alt - look for a group
- to wing with and start the DF if one is in the area

Nutting wrong with that!

- If there are any AAA guns around - I will go for
- those first and foremost...

I do both.


<div style="width:1024;color:F0FFFF;fontsize:11pt;filter: glow[color=black,strength=8)">
<h2> TAGERT</h2>
<marquee><h3>If WAR was not the ANSWER........ Than what the H was your QUESTION?</h3></marquee>
</div>

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 05:48 PM
Tagert,

I've been trying to figure out your sig. Thinking and thinking...

Can you explain what you mean? I honestly don't understand it.

Thanks,

hans

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 05:50 PM
Hans_Svetty wrote:
- Tagert,
-
- I've been trying to figure out your sig. Thinking
- and thinking...
-
- Can you explain what you mean? I honestly don't
- understand it.


Just read his responses to some of the other posters. I think the answer to YOUR question becomes quite apparent /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<center>http://www.medals.org.uk/united-kingdom/images/uk654.jpg


Message Edited on 11/04/0309:51AM by h009291

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 05:53 PM
EisenFrettchen wrote:

- Please calm down.

Been!

- You are being rude to another member because of
- your particular feelings about a game.

Rude? No just <h2>highlighting</h2> the fact that you dont have to be brave to ram

- A game.

A simulation of war like situations.. Quake is a game.. IL2 is more than a game.

- Once again, with your shouting and coarse behavior,
- you are showing your childish side. Recently, you
- have been doing better, but here again you are
- acting badly to someone who wanted to come online
- and talk about his experiences.

LOL! for a NEW USER you sure seem to know alot about the history of this forum... Tell us.. what recently banned person are you trying to play the good guy now and get back at me? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- Tagert, sure, disagree with him, but stop trying to
- stomp all over him by screaming and pointing and
- other obviously inappropriate actions.

Sorry.. but he did ask what we think.. And Im telling him that I think it is UN-COOL, GUTTLESS, and really HURTS online play. Dont confuse my honesty and facts with rudeness!

- Remember we are trying to raise the quality of this
- forum.
-
- Thank you,

Humm for a new user you sure know alot about the history here! I liked your old sig better! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


<div style="width:1024;color:F0FFFF;fontsize:11pt;filter: glow[color=black,strength=8)">
<h2> TAGERT</h2>
<marquee><h3>If WAR was not the ANSWER........ Than what the H was your QUESTION?</h3></marquee>
</div>

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 05:58 PM
Hans_Svetty wrote:
- Tagert,
-
- I've been trying to figure out your sig. Thinking
- and thinking...
-
- Can you explain what you mean? I honestly don't
- understand it.
-
- Thanks,
-
- hans

Sure no problem.. Here in the USA we have alot of John Lenon Tree Hugging types running around saying "cant we all just get along" and "war is not the answer" and etc... In a perfect world John Lenon ways of thinking would work.. Everybody just put down your arms and hug... I wish it was a perfect world.. but it aint.. not yet... Maybe in the near future when the figure out all of our DNA and they can turn off those things that make us Human.. then maybe we can all just get along... Like ants.. just chugging along doing our thing... Im just glad I wont live long enough to see that day! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


<div style="width:1024;color:F0FFFF;fontsize:11pt;filter: glow[color=black,strength=8)">
<h2> TAGERT</h2>
<marquee><h3>If WAR was not the ANSWER........ Than what the H was your QUESTION?</h3></marquee>
</div>


Message Edited on 11/04/0308:59AM by tagert

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 06:00 PM
i am supprise you need to ask the question.

you just took off from your base, when you die, you appear in the same place - this hero in the tb3 flew for ages at 120 kts and you just pretended you was a guided missile.

if only we could send electric shocks to people like you.


BZZZZZZZZZ


BZZZZZZZZZZZz
BZZZZZZZZZZZ



New Jet Flightsim:
http://www.thunder-works.com

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 06:03 PM
scary_pigeon wrote:
-
- if only we could send electric shocks to people like
- you.
-
-
- BZZZZZZZZZ
-
-
- BZZZZZZZZZZZ
- BZZZZZZZZZZZ

LOL! Oh man I wish!!

<h1>BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ *POP*</h1>

<div style="width:1024;color:F0FFFF;fontsize:11pt;filter: glow[color=black,strength=8)">
<h2> TAGERT</h2>
<marquee><h3>If WAR was not the ANSWER........ Than what the H was your QUESTION?</h3></marquee>
</div>


Message Edited on 11/04/0309:04AM by tagert

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 06:09 PM
Deliberate ramming is bad. But I have to ask.....

Where are the escorts for said bomber?

Everytime I fly, I tell the guys on my side." I am in a fighter magnet, follow me. "

You fighter guys want kills, escort the magnets. They will come.

ZG77_Nagual
11-04-2003, 06:24 PM
TB# is mostly kind of transparent to bullets - like shooting down a kite with a bb gun - you gotta get inclose and aim for stuff that will break. A mk108 is a nice aid in this respect.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/whiner.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 06:28 PM
If it was some situation where points mattered desperately. and ramming a bomber helped you achieve success, then fair enough. The bomber should have been escorted.

But if we are talking about the average dogfight server, it takes away more fun than it adds. Number one rule is for everyone to have fun. So in most online situations it would be an unmannerly thing to do.

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 06:29 PM
Tagert is either a young teen still quite unfamiliar with getting along with others,

... or an uneducated and angry person who is unable to express his feelings in a mature manner (look at his sig),

... or someone who simply enjoys baiting strangers who cannot face him in a protected venue like a web forum.

my $.02

IF

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 06:46 PM
i just read all of tagerts posts and i gotta say........he HAS to be about 8 years old if that. also how can he like vulching if he hates ramming bombers? vulching is worse. once a plane is in the air far from his base he is on his own. if your STUPID enough to get in a bomber then your gonna die. and die often and die quick when flying in dogfight servers. im not talking about scripted or coop or such. dogfight servers are not safe for bombing. its a 100 percent failure zone.i hate vulchers. they go for free points. now if they are in a stuka or il2 then they earn those points. but ramming a bomber after ammo is ALL gone and you havent gotten any other points in that plane? and yer gonna get a new plane anyway? RAMM THAT scumbag trying to bomb your base!!!! this isnt real life and thats YOU hes gonna drop his bombs on when you revive for more ammo. he did the smartest thing he could in that dora and i say HATS OFF TO HIM great job . p.s. he might still get to bail out and get 200 points for taking that tb3 down . again this is a game to win and in the air tb3s shouldnt be allowed near your base no matter what.they can fly low and strafe all your planes taking off. they gotta die no matter what

www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net) home of the 11 time Champions Team AFJ. 6 Years Flying. Semper Invictus! <img src ="http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_120_1065509047.jpg">

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 06:54 PM
The problem is you were flying the wrong plane. Try an A-9 with 103's and that pregnant TB-3 will give birth after one or two passes. Those 103's are awesome/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


MB_Lerxster wrote:
- ...that is the question?
-
- Here's the scenario.
-
- Having spotted a TB3 fully laden and moving like a
- pregnant hippo across the skies, I straffed the
- beast several time in my Dora only inflicting minor
- damage and sustaining a troublesome engine oil leak.
- The enemy was closing in on our air base and I could
- sense the trigger finger itching to drop it's
- payload. Having no ammunition left I decided that a
- sacrifice for my country was in order and promptly
- ended both our lives (and saving some in the
- process) by ramming the swine.
-
- On a 90% real server I reckon that was fair if a
- little unrealistic for a German pilot (I've read
- plenty account of Russian pilots ramming but not
- German ones).
-
- What do you think?
-
-



Nuley - Man I love this game!

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 06:57 PM
RedDeth wrote:
- i hate vulchers. they go for free points.

- this is a game to win and in the air tb3s shouldnt be allowed near your base no matter what.

These two statements strike me as inconsistant. What would you do if you had the opportunity to vulch a TB3?

If the only the thing that matters is winning, then everything is fair, within the specified rules of the server. Vulching, ramming, the lot. Your approval of ramming but disapproval of vulching seems rather arbitrary.

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 07:05 PM
Your analogy about being patriotic is flawed friend. If you want to emulate real life by sacrifing yourself, then after ramming the bomber you must agree to stop playing online. I assume you pressed refly immediately after, didn't you?

I concur with others, having flown this "pig" for ten or fifteen minutes (and more), trying to just inch my way to the enemy base, I'll tip my hat off to anyone who shoots me down, but not to an inexperienced virtual pilot who chooses to ram my plane instead.

My two wooden cents,

Best regards

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 07:16 PM
LilHorse wrote:
- Well, we're talking about a computer game here
- aren't we. And you're right, the Germans didn't do
- it. Tarans always seem to be portrayed these days
- as having been selfless, heroic acts. Really,
- tarans were wasteful, stupid and most of the time
- unecessary.

i think most countries did it, at least inofficial.
and, he nor you are right.
as for germany, i know they had special sturmbock and rammbock commandos (i think im telling this the 4th time in a week now) which were supposed to bring down the incoming bombers at all costs. even with ramming. this was written down in their codex. also there was a high scoring pilot (who wasnt in such a commando) that did a ramming attack against a b17 to end his life after his wife and family died in bombing raids on german cities. and a small fighter with a pilot (better with him surviving) was a good trade against a heavy bomber, so not too wasteful.

in game, i dont really care about ramming. i know how upsetting it is for the bomberpilot (i was rammed myself flying tb3 or he111), but i also understand the nerved fighterpilot which doesnt want his attack to be useless. gentle pilots dont ram, though. most time i try to be gentle /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif .

---

http://debaer.freezope.org/files/sigsm.jpg


-I fear nothing but the ground-

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 08:10 PM
I don't ram bombers. It doesn't take any real skill, so I don't find it to be any fun. And it certainly takes the fun out of the game for the guy flying the bombers. I rarely fly bombers, but I love to see others fly them as it is fun to try to shoot them down (not ramming that is to easy).

As to vulching, I find it exiting to have the base under attack while desprately trying to get off the ground and calling for all airborne fighters to provide some support at the base (fighters, fighter-bombers, bombers, whatever). The only kind of vulching I do not like is in servers were it is to easy to do it repeatedly and you have a very low chance of ever getting of the ground when someone is abusing it and constantly shooting you down before you even get a chance to move your plane.

s!

:FI:SnoopBaron

http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_07.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 08:12 PM
EisenFrettchen wrote:
-
- Tagert is either a young teen still quite unfamiliar
- with getting along with others,

Hardly.

- ... or an uneducated and angry person who is unable
- to express his feelings in a mature manner (look at
- his sig),

LOL!

- ... or someone who simply enjoys baiting strangers
- who cannot face him in a protected venue like a web
- forum.

Said the man who had nothing to contribute to the conversation at hand.. and only join in to come in and make comments about my post and to call me young, uneducated, angry, imature and a troll.. Nice try but you might want to look in the miror.. The troll here is you!!

- my $.02

out of your total $0.05

<div style="width:1024;color:F0FFFF;fontsize:11pt;filter: glow[color=black,strength=8)">
<h2> TAGERT</h2>
<marquee><h3>If WAR was not the ANSWER........ Than what the H was your QUESTION?</h3></marquee>
</div>

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 08:24 PM
RedDeth wrote:
- i just read all of tagerts posts and i gotta
- say........he HAS to be about 8 years old if that.

You have to say huh? Kids.. why do they feel they have to say things?

- also how can he like vulching if he hates ramming bombers?

What part did you not understand? I explained it in basic terms. Ok, let me break it down for you a little more... In the frame work of an online game where you never really die.. hense EASY to be BRAVE it is BOGUS to ram a bomber and then press the re=spawn key a second later and go fly again... If you want to be brave.. RAM it and then never play online again.. That would simulate it better.. Where as vultching.. I.E. STRAFING targets on the ground.. which includes aircraft taking off or landing was a very REAL tatic in the war!

- vulching is worse.

Disagree 100%

- once a plane is in the air far from his base he is
- on his own.

Never said it wasnt.

- if your STUPID enough to get in a bomber then your
- gonna die. and die often and die quick when flying in
- dogfight servers.

LOL! STUPID huh? I guess everyone that doesnt do or like to do what you do is STUPID?

- im not talking about scripted or
- coop or such. dogfight servers are not safe for
- bombing. its a 100 percent failure zone.

Disagree 100% Bombers can.. if done right.. have a good time in dogfighter servers.. But prob is after climbing to a good alt.. some dweeb gets mad that he couldnt down you after useing up all his ammo.. so he rams you. BRAVE MAN!

- i hate vulchers.

So!

- they go for free points. now if they are
- in a stuka or il2 then they earn those points.

Well in a scripted server it is about taking out the other guy... the points for doing so is just icing on the cake.

- but ramming a bomber after ammo is ALL gone and you
- havent gotten any other points in that plane? and
- yer gonna get a new plane anyway? RAMM THAT scumbag
- trying to bomb your base!!!! this isnt real life and
- thats YOU hes gonna drop his bombs on when you
- revive for more ammo. he did the smartest thing he
- could in that dora and i say HATS OFF TO HIM great
- job .

HAHAHAHAHAAAHA and you called me 8 years old? GET A MIRROR! I have never read such a lame justification! It just shows what is happening to the flight sim comunity as a whole.. THESE QUAKE SHOOT EM UP KIDS are growing up and starting to fly flight sims... This explanation is a perfect example of such!!

- p.s. he might still get to bail out and get
- 200 points for taking that tb3 down . again this is
- a game to win and in the air tb3s shouldnt be
- allowed near your base no matter what.they can fly
- low and strafe all your planes taking off. they
- gotta die no matter what

U R HOPELESS!



<div style="width:1024;color:F0FFFF;fontsize:11pt;filter: glow[color=black,strength=8)">
<h2> TAGERT</h2>
<marquee><h3>If WAR was not the ANSWER........ Than what the H was your QUESTION?</h3></marquee>
</div>

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 08:29 PM
Snoop_Baron wrote:
- I don't ram bombers. It doesn't take any real skill,
- so I don't find it to be any fun. And it certainly
- takes the fun out of the game for the guy flying the
- bombers. I rarely fly bombers, but I love to see
- others fly them as it is fun to try to shoot them
- down (not ramming that is to easy).

EXACTALLY!

- As to vulching, I find it exiting to have the base
- under attack while desprately trying to get off the
- ground and calling for all airborne fighters to
- provide some support at the base (fighters,
- fighter-bombers, bombers, whatever). The only kind
- of vulching I do not like is in servers were it is
- to easy to do it repeatedly and you have a very low
- chance of ever getting of the ground when someone is
- abusing it and constantly shooting you down before
- you even get a chance to move your plane.

Agreed 100%!! About the only time I would complain about getting vultched is when there is only ONE base to take off from.. Then it is a valid argument. And with the new island base I can see that as being a problem.. there is only one base at each end.. but.. at least they are farther appart.. just add a little AAA in there and it would be fine by me if I got vultched.. a base under attack is alot of fun to defend.. has a realistic feel to it.

In a nut shell it takes more skill to vultch than ram.

<div style="width:1024;color:F0FFFF;fontsize:11pt;filter: glow[color=black,strength=8)">
<h2> TAGERT</h2>
<marquee><h3>If WAR was not the ANSWER........ Than what the H was your QUESTION?</h3></marquee>
</div>

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 08:41 PM
Hehe,sorry folks but I have to agree with tagert. If I fly on-line with a bomber wether it's he 111 or tb3 I EXPECT to get respect from other people. Meaning they respect the rules and they may shoot me down but not ram me and then press refly!! If this happens accidentaly ok but don't do it 2 or 3 times because then I'm really P*SSED.
And I do the same as he. I come over the base of enemy. No planes up? swoop down a bit to see if they are taking off.If they are,I'll do 1Pass and a quick shoot and leave'm alone. And if I see no one respawning then I go with the AAA. But please if you like ramming so much and your out of ammo then fly down,STRAIGHT DOWN and see when your plane breacks. you'll ram something to. The ground!!
But don't call tagert stupid or annything else like child or so because he has tons of good points. And indeed Ram away but imediatly after disconnect and look for a new server! Only fair no?
So don't crap on people's head if you have no cleu whatyou are saying.



tagert wrote:
- RedDeth wrote:
-- i just read all of tagerts posts and i gotta
-- say........he HAS to be about 8 years old if that.
-
- You have to say huh? Kids.. why do they feel they
- have to say things?
-
-- also how can he like vulching if he hates ramming bombers?
-
- What part did you not understand? I explained it in
- basic terms. Ok, let me break it down for you a
- little more... In the frame work of an online game
- where you never really die.. hense EASY to be BRAVE
- it is BOGUS to ram a bomber and then press the
- re=spawn key a second later and go fly again... If
- you want to be brave.. RAM it and then never play
- online again.. That would simulate it better.. Where
- as vultching.. I.E. STRAFING targets on the ground..
- which includes aircraft taking off or landing was a
- very REAL tatic in the war!
-
-- vulching is worse.
-
- Disagree 100%
-
-- once a plane is in the air far from his base he is
-- on his own.
-
- Never said it wasnt.
-
-- if your STUPID enough to get in a bomber then your
-- gonna die. and die often and die quick when flying in
-- dogfight servers.
-
- LOL! STUPID huh? I guess everyone that doesnt do or
- like to do what you do is STUPID?
-
-- im not talking about scripted or
-- coop or such. dogfight servers are not safe for
-- bombing. its a 100 percent failure zone.
-
- Disagree 100% Bombers can.. if done right.. have a
- good time in dogfighter servers.. But prob is after
- climbing to a good alt.. some dweeb gets mad that he
- couldnt down you after useing up all his ammo.. so
- he rams you. BRAVE MAN!
-
-- i hate vulchers.
-
- So!
-
-- they go for free points. now if they are
-- in a stuka or il2 then they earn those points.
-
- Well in a scripted server it is about taking out the
- other guy... the points for doing so is just icing
- on the cake.
-
-- but ramming a bomber after ammo is ALL gone and you
-- havent gotten any other points in that plane? and
-- yer gonna get a new plane anyway? RAMM THAT scumbag
-- trying to bomb your base!!!! this isnt real life and
-- thats YOU hes gonna drop his bombs on when you
-- revive for more ammo. he did the smartest thing he
-- could in that dora and i say HATS OFF TO HIM great
-- job .
-
- HAHAHAHAHAAAHA and you called me 8 years old? GET A
- MIRROR! I have never read such a lame justification!
- It just shows what is happening to the flight sim
- comunity as a whole.. THESE QUAKE SHOOT EM UP KIDS
- are growing up and starting to fly flight sims...
- This explanation is a perfect example of such!!
-
-- p.s. he might still get to bail out and get
-- 200 points for taking that tb3 down . again this is
-- a game to win and in the air tb3s shouldnt be
-- allowed near your base no matter what.they can fly
-- low and strafe all your planes taking off. they
-- gotta die no matter what
-
- U R HOPELESS!
-


<img src="http://www.planeshift.it/download/ps_banner1s.gif"<

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 08:42 PM
Ram....simple word, means to use self sacrifice to attempt stopping the enemy. Only if you die and the bomber stays aloft, milliseconds longer than you....then cyberwise, you died first, and the bomber gets the kill. Or if you rammed me and only crippled me, I may not bail out near your base but aim for the spot you may spawn in. I do not say this in jest for often i lose the control of my ailerons or rudders and elevators, at that point RTB is futile...so a direct line to your ramp is where i head. If you spawn on it as I drop bombs, oh well.
On the brighter side, had you flown away an attempted a landing, then your not a threat and I still aim for the ramp or other threats.

Honestly, I am not going to tell you how to shoot down a bomber, because thats what i fly mostly. If you care not to spend time offline learning how to shoot down bombers that you can choose not to have ammo, then too bad.


If you ram me accidently...I MIGHT unerstand. IF its intentional, either I will leave the server or change tatics and chase you down...ignoring ground targets.

oh, for TB-3, awesome shoot down, but very hard is to drop bomblets from an IL-2 on it from above....have to be far enough away not to get fragged though....lol

361stShrek....bombing for Peace and love.

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 08:52 PM
p.s. if you can trim a plane out nicely, and bail out hoping the plane without you will ram the bomber....go for it...bailing out will in itself change the flight characteristics enought that undefended the bomber has a better chance of shooting it down......LOLOLOLOL

361stShrek...bombing for Peace and Love.

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 08:56 PM
The debate has hints of turning ugly - that's too bad. Some strong opinions here - we can all do without the name calling, however (play nice boys/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif )

Bottom line, it is heoric to sacrifice one's life in order to protect another, but this can't be emulated in this game.

If ramming bombers is acceptable, then ramming fighters should also be acceptable. And, if so, ramming will become the norm. No more need for skill in deflection shooting, just speed ahead and ram your opponents. Most gamers would not appreciate that type of gaming.

This would not only lead to a poor gaming experience, but would not be feasible in a real war since the lost of machinery and pilots is far more valuable then the death of the opposing plane/pilot.

While this may have happened in isolated events for various individual reasons, the only country that had any reputation in doing this was Japan (though not has common as believed). But, when you are a nation with a significant population (i.e., pilots) such a tactic may seem reasonable to employ when facing countries with far less pilots.

Best regards (I guess I'm now up to $0.04 now /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif )

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 09:00 PM
I don't know how many times I have had my engine conk out after the first pass at some Bomber. I could care less how long the other player has been nurseing his bomber through the flak, over the hills, to granmother's house he goes.

This is a game of points. and as far as I'm concerned the less points he gets, the less I have to make up.

..so by all means..

.........RAM THE S.O.B. ! ! !

http://www.funkypages.com/squirl/squirl.jpg


Message Edited on 11/04/0308:01PM by BeerSquirl

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 09:03 PM
mudder_fudder wrote:
-
- Honestly, I am not going to tell you how to shoot
- down a bomber, because thats what i fly mostly.

um, you dont really know what exactly your opponent aimed for if e.g. your controls fail or so, so how will you tell someone flying a fighter how to shoot down a bomber?
anyway, thats not a big secret.
cockpit - engines - controlsurfaces (these only if you have good aiming), or even ripping the fueltanks and then set the fuel aflame.

head-on is best. a short burst with my fw190's guns on the cockpit of a he111 and anything in there is lifeless. tb3 is harder, but you can hit the pilots easily from above in a swallow dive. you can also take out the engines without problems in a head-on.
head-on is the key to down a heavy bomber, at least to me.

---

http://debaer.freezope.org/files/sigsm.jpg


-I fear nothing but the ground-

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 09:05 PM
MB_Lerxster, feel free to ram anything on the enemy side.
(Only exeption is if the serverhost specifically banns ramming.)


It may seem unfair to a bomberpilot to fly a long time only to get downed close to target, but this was the fact in real life also. This is the reason why both sides used escorts. so if u find a lonely Tb3, its because his teammates left him to the enemys mercy. It cant be your fault that the enemy iznt taking care of "Biznez"

Imagine that a flight of fw190 finds a tb3 lurking close to their base and the leader informs his mates that this lonely bomber has flown all the way here , "lets give him an opportunity to do his job!" /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


Or a 109 pilot whining over beeing attacked by 2 or more yak3's ( unfair isnt it? )

Hundreds of similar examples can be made about unfairness.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -



However there is a possibility to ram a bomber with some style. ( in o.b style ):

1- deploy gear just before u ram him and let the wheels ram the bomber and then belly land.

2- instead of just flying into the target, chop his wing or tail with your wing and bail out.

3- fly on collision course and bail out and let your empty plane do the job.



Unfair iznt it /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 09:09 PM
I really don't have issue with taking a bomber's wingtip off and surviving. I don't intend to ram unless I've exhausted my ammo and think I'll survive the collision, lol.

I never go head-on anyways, so no worries about fighter ramming. Everybody does it accidentally once in awhile from behind though.

However, a bomber pilot who has no issues how many times he flies low over the base letting his gunners strafe at will on spawning planes or is one of those looping, twisting lag monsters, I have no qualms about taking his wing with a well-placed ram. Hehe, my plane's a weapon, too.

Honor has nothing to do with this issue on a dogfight server. It's kill or be killed and bombers are worth big points and this is important to some. For me, I just get tired of landing 20-40 20mms to a bomber's wing and watching him fly away online, when the same ammo shreds the same plane offline. But, that's a different story we don't need to get into here./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

So, I feel it's within the game to use the no ammo rammo to take down bombers. I just don't like sacraficing myself to do it, so I use my method./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

_______________________________________
çk?¯kT 2003**

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 09:10 PM
RAM the commie SOB.....how dare he/she pollute the sky with that ugliest of all aircraft....get it out of the sky any way you can...jump on it with a grenade....

"Nothing difficult is ever easy"

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 09:12 PM
TacticalSkirmsh wrote:
, but would not be feasible in a real war
- since the lost of machinery and pilots is far more
- valuable then the death of the opposing plane/pilot.
-
-
-
- While this may have happened in isolated events for
- various individual reasons, the only country that
- had any reputation in doing this was Japan (though
- not has common as believed)
-

how many times am i gonna tell my story about the rammbock and sturmbock commandos? they had ramming included in their tactics as last method to down an enemy bomber after they wasted all their ammo.
"once a bomber was attacked, it had to be brought down at all costs, even with ramming" was, freely formulated, their thinking. the pilots did volunteer to do this.

this was unreasonable facing the bad situation of germany's production and men in late '44, but so was the whole war.

---

http://debaer.freezope.org/files/sigsm.jpg


-I fear nothing but the ground-

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 09:22 PM
DeBaer.534 wrote:
-
- LilHorse wrote:
-- Well, we're talking about a computer game here
-- aren't we. And you're right, the Germans didn't do
-- it. Tarans always seem to be portrayed these days
-- as having been selfless, heroic acts. Really,
-- tarans were wasteful, stupid and most of the time
-- unecessary.
-
- i think most countries did it, at least inofficial.
- and, he nor you are right.
- as for germany, i know they had special sturmbock
- and rammbock commandos (i think im telling this the
- 4th time in a week now) which were supposed to bring
- down the incoming bombers at all costs. even with
- ramming. this was written down in their codex. also
- there was a high scoring pilot (who wasnt in such a
- commando) that did a ramming attack against a b17 to
- end his life after his wife and family died in
- bombing raids on german cities. and a small fighter
- with a pilot (better with him surviving) was a good
- trade against a heavy bomber, so not too wasteful.
-
- in game, i dont really care about ramming. i know
- how upsetting it is for the bomberpilot (i was
- rammed myself flying tb3 or he111), but i also
- understand the nerved fighterpilot which doesnt want
- his attack to be useless. gentle pilots dont ram,
- though. most time i try to be gentle

Interesting DeBear. I didn't know that Germany had such commando squadrons. But perhaps I wasn't being quite specific enough in my earlier post. Since this sim is about the Eastern front (and I used the term: taran) that is what I was referring to. I may be wrong but to the best of my knowledge the Germans were not in the habit on the Eastern front of ramming their enemies. Whereas, the Soviets did. And this is where I still maintain that tarans were wasteful. At the start of the war in the East the last thing the Soviets needed was for it's experianced pilots to be killing themselves and destroying it's resourses when they most needed them.

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 09:30 PM
bluntly....Bombers can be great targets to shoot at, however if your trying to discourage the player of some GAME server from flying and to leave, then yes, ramming is the best way. It gets increasingly frustrating to get airborne and have some schmuck that can not aim decide to ram. Especially if they can't land, so they decide not to try to land, and use 'RAMMING' or Kill-Crashing' as their means of landing.
Hey if you can clip a bomber and still live, go for it, gives the gunners more practice in shooting back.

Its not just a game, its also a simulation, so simulate.This has nothing to do with honor, but more to do with enjoyment....yours if you shoot down the bomber, mine if you don't.

If its not enjoyable, then why would I participate.

361stShrek.

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 09:33 PM
LilHorse wrote:
- Interesting DeBear. I didn't know that Germany had
- such commando squadrons. But perhaps I wasn't being
- quite specific enough in my earlier post. Since
- this sim is about the Eastern front (and I used the
- term: taran) that is what I was referring to. I may
- be wrong but to the best of my knowledge the Germans
- were not in the habit on the Eastern front of
- ramming their enemies. Whereas, the Soviets did.
- And this is where I still maintain that tarans were
- wasteful. At the start of the war in the East the
- last thing the Soviets needed was for it's
- experianced pilots to be killing themselves and
- destroying it's resourses when they most needed
- them.

yup, with this specifications you're right. these units were used against the dayraids by the usaf. it wasnt used by the germans on the eastern front, because they hardly fought against large amounts of incoming heavy bombers, i think. i guess the taran attacks were used particular as propaganda, to show the braveness of the pilots. but they were a big waste of needed men and machines for the red army, looking at the situation in the early years of the eastern war. but as far as i know, werent the russians planes sturdy enough to destroy the enemys tailfins without going down, if they did their job good?

---

http://debaer.freezope.org/files/sigsm.jpg


-I fear nothing but the ground-

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 09:43 PM
Well a big LOL to all sports fans out there!

What a reaction! I havent laughed out load for a looong time!

I reckon my actions were justified on a almost full real server where ramming or vulching was not banned. Where for the sake of realism I defended my base by an ultimate sacrifice, saving my pals from certain death!

Sure I chose the wrong armorment to down the big bird but that was my ******* fault but hey it's a game and I enjoying getting into my virtual flying suit and acting in the spirit of the server.

On this particular server vulching was happening a lot and that's fine. A typical game went thus: refly, get vulched, refly get vulched, refly, get vulched, refly, take off, get shot down ad infinitum. So you see adding a ram in the middle made the game way more fun http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

I don't make a habit of ramming people... infact I can count on one hand how many times I have rammed bombers (discounting the inevitable head ons one encounters in a DF).

I do expect that I'll repeat my actions if a similar scenario occurs.

Frankly target I'll think of you and lol till the tear roll. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 09:55 PM
MB_Lerxster wrote:
-i can count on one hand how many times I have rammed
- bombers

thats the point, you are still able to use your hand counting your collisions, in real life, that would be a problem after ramming a bomber down.

and so, theres no honour in ramming someone in a flight sim. it has just a bit of braveness (which is almost equivalent to madness), because youll make yourself very disliked in repeating it.

---
Regards, DeBaer

-I fear nothing but the ground-

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 10:24 PM
DeBaer.534 wrote:
but as far as i know, werent the
- russians planes sturdy enough to destroy the enemys
- tailfins without going down, if they did their job
- good?


Well, from what I've read it seemed like a very dicey act. The only way you knew you "did it right" was if you had the good fortune to have survived it. Surviving a taran was more luck than skill.

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 11:49 PM
Just pickin up on some point earlier about the world being a dodgy place and we gotta be strong to survive. No tree huggin Jon Lennon types here m8y but I do think a bit of thought comes into it, there is more than one way to skin a cat...........

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 12:11 AM
should think that intentional Ramming of anyone would be most unsporting in any game. This one in particular. Most of us have at one time or another rammed another a/c either through inexperience or stubborness (not wanting to break in hth) i really despise those who think that ramming an A/C is cool IT AIN'T

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 12:37 AM
I just watched something on the History Channel that I had taped a few weeks ago. Towards the very end of the war German fighters did ram American bombers.

There was even a raid specifically set up to do this. I believe it was April or May 1945. A number of Me-262's attacked a large formation of bombers. The 262's made one pass and then flew off with American escorts in hot pursuit. Then a number of FW-190s attacked the formation with the sole purpose of ramming bombers. One FW-190 hit the tail of a bomber and caused the bomber to spin out of control and take out a second bomber. Several other German planes rammed bombers head-on or dove into them. At most, the Americans lost 13 bombers from ramming on this raid. The Germans lost far more planes.

The same show also talked about the raid of 60 Mistels to destroy key bridges in Germany to protect retreating German forces. The group that flew the Mistels lost many of them to enemy fighters before they reached the targets, but they did destroy all of the bridges.

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 12:59 AM
JG2_John_M wrote:
- i really
- despise those who think that ramming an A/C is cool
- IT AIN'T
-
-

Despise? Wow, tell us how you really feel, John_M./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

I find that on the manly servers, where you kill any way you can and learning NOT to get killed is the key to victory, downing a bomber with any tactic possible is sound advice.

There ain't no way I'm letting any unescorted bomber jock drop anything on my base. I find war to be a necessary evil in certain instances and in this game(sim) of war, I truly love the survival of the fittest approach.

I protect my home base, with the same fervor that I protect my wingman. Just like I'll never chase a bandit and leave my wingman, I don't leave my base unprotected from bombers./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

_______________________________________
çk?¯kT 2003**

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 01:38 AM
SlickStick wrote:
- I find that on the manly servers, where you kill any
- way you can and learning NOT to get killed is the
- key to victory, downing a bomber with any tactic
- possible is sound advice.

WOW!

- There ain't no way I'm letting any unescorted bomber
- jock drop anything on my base. I find war to be a
- necessary evil in certain instances and in this
- game(sim) of war, I truly love the survival of the
- fittest approach.
-
- I protect my home base, with the same fervor that I
- protect my wingman. Just like I'll never chase a
- bandit and leave my wingman, I don't leave my base
- unprotected from bombers.

What a brave guy!

Man.. before this thread I had an inclination that the X-GEN bunch was growing up.. You know the generation that gew up with DOOM and Quake type of games with no real history.. reason.. or purpose but to blow stuff up... This mind set is poluting the Flight Sim pool... The kind of guys that grew up apreciating the history of it all.. the planes.. the tatics.. and the *real* men that flew them... We enjoyed setting up realistic senarios and apply realistic tatics.. But now it looks like this sim is going to the lowest common denomator.. Donkey Kong in the sky.. Guys who care more about thier HIGH SCORE then the EXPERANCE... A sad sad day that is only going to get worse as more of these X-Gen mind sets grow up and polute the flight sim pool... I only wish all these guys trying to justify ramming a bomber would leave this great sim alone and go play BF1942 along with all the other Quake players that "want to be's" who cant apply realistic tatics LET ALONE APREICATE THEM!



<div style="width:1024;color:F0FFFF;fontsize:11pt;filter: glow[color=black,strength=8)">
<h2> TAGERT</h2>
<marquee><h3>If WAR was not the ANSWER........ Than what the H was your QUESTION?</h3></marquee>
</div>

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 01:49 AM
Time to stir the pot....

If your gonna start ramming at least use a BI-1 and claim that you are acting as a SAM system for your airbase.......

eskimo-FHmod
11-05-2003, 01:51 AM
what annoys me even more than getting rammed is having flown 20 minutes, just about to release and ..... the map changes !!!

argh ...

www.vaaf.com (http://www.strikemepink.com)

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 02:07 AM
Why bother with ramming? Rockets work just fine. Or bombs. But most importantly, a bomber should not be without escort! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/klv_ubisig1a.jpg


Oh yeah, I'm a P-63 whiner too! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 02:10 AM
LOL, realistic, shmealistic...what the hell do you want for $40.00?

I'm sorry your panties are in such a bunch, but it seems to me if you wanted the most realistic approach to this sim, it would be anything goes and all is fair in love and war...just like it was in real life. War is hell, Tagert./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Setting rules and limitations to what is and what isn't acceptable, especially that "let me land, I'm loaded with points rule.", lol, is more controlling the sim than letting the players create with the sim.

I say throw them all in a locked server and let the tactics win the day for the cleverest and the most resourceful team....using no outside influences or BS./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

_______________________________________
çk?¯kT 2003**

Message Edited on 11/04/0308:13PM by SlickStick

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 02:31 AM
- Sure no problem.. Here in the USA we have alot of
- John Lenon Tree Hugging types running around saying
- "cant we all just get along" and "war is not the
- answer" and etc... In a perfect world John Lenon
- ways of thinking would work.. Everybody just put
- down your arms and hug... I wish it was a perfect
- world.. but it aint.. not yet... Maybe in the near
- future when the figure out all of our DNA and they
- can turn off those things that make us Human.. then
- maybe we can all just get along... Like ants.. just
- chugging along doing our thing... Im just glad I
- wont live long enough to see that day! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
-
-
-
- <div
- style="width:1024;color:F0FFFF;fontsize:11pt;filter:
- glow(color=black,strength=8)">
- <h2> TAGERT</h2>
- <marquee><h3>If WAR was not the ANSWER........ Than
- what the H was your QUESTION?</h3></marquee>
- </div>
-
-
- Message Edited on 11/04/03 08:59AM by tagert

You say you would hate to see the day that there was no war. Are you saying that war makes us human? That we could not be human beings without war?

You say that without war we would be ants. Did you forget that ants make war,between thier nests, total war. this is well documented. Does war make us like ants then?

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 04:28 AM
"I really don't have issue with taking a bomber's wingtip off and surviving. I don't intend to ram unless I've exhausted my ammo and think I'll survive the collision, lol.

I never go head-on anyways, so no worries about fighter ramming. Everybody does it accidentally once in awhile from behind though.

However, a bomber pilot who has no issues how many times he flies low over the base letting his gunners strafe at will on spawning planes or is one of those looping, twisting lag monsters, I have no qualms about taking his wing with a well-placed ram. Hehe, my plane's a weapon, too.

Honor has nothing to do with this issue on a dogfight server. It's kill or be killed and bombers are worth big points and this is important to some. For me, I just get tired of landing 20-40 20mms to a bomber's wing and watching him fly away online, when the same ammo shreds the same plane offline. But, that's a different story we don't need to get into here.

So, I feel it's within the game to use the no ammo rammo to take down bombers. I just don't like sacraficing myself to do it, so I use my method. " well well well, this is the first and probably last time ill ever agree with slickstick aka the old ex 69th_CHASE ..... will wonders never cease? p.s. well see ya in aow fightersweeps chase....looking forward to seeing you there


www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net) home of the 11 time Champions Team AFJ. 6 Years Flying. Semper Invictus! <img src ="http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_120_1065509047.jpg">

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 06:04 AM
Your squad doesn't have a chance in hell at winning anything, RedDeth. Which is why your squad's been ducking for over two years, lol./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

_______________________________________
çk?¯kT 2003**

Message Edited on 11/05/0312:05AM by SlickStick

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 06:10 AM
Hans_Svetty wrote:
- You say you would hate to see the day that there was
- no war.

Nope, you are putting words in my mouth. Read it again. What I said is I am glad I wont live to see the day that we are re-programed at the DNA level to remove the things that make us human.. for example.. if you remove the ability to HATE then you remove the ability to LOVE... PASSION good or bad.. it makes us human. And if you could remove HATE without removing LOVE then you wouldnt be able to apreciate LOVE because you dont know what HATE is.

- Are you saying that war makes us human?

Nope, you are putting words in my mouth. Read it again and NOTE that WAR does not MAKE us.. WE MAKE WAR.

- That we could not be human beings without war?

Nope, you are putting words in my mouth. Read it again and note that war could not be without human beings.

- You say that without war we would be ants.

WOW! Do you try to put words in my mouth.. or are you just unable to read something? Read it again, and NOTE that I said *IF* the day comes that *THEY* could re-program us at the DNA level that *I* would be gland if I dont live to see it.. *BECAUSE* without the ability to LOVE and HATE we would be like DRONES.. ie ANTS.. working till we die.

- Did you forget that ants make war,between thier
- nests, total war. this is well documented.

Yes I realise it, what you DONT realise is your bias.. Reread what I said, the point you missed was that without our emotions.. our passions.. we would be like ANTS.. working BEES... etc.

- Does war make us like ants then?

Again, WAR does not make US.. WE make WAR. To pretend that is not apart of us is to be ignorant of it and inviting it to happen. Embrace it, understand it, and you might be able to avoid it! Dont ignor it and pretend it is not part of us at a very BASIC level.. We are animals.. plane and simple



<div style="width:1024;color:F0FFFF;fontsize:11pt;filter: glow[color=black,strength=8)">
<h2> TAGERT</h2>
<marquee><h3>If WAR was not the ANSWER........ Than what the H was your QUESTION?</h3></marquee>
</div>


Message Edited on 11/04/0309:19PM by tagert

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 06:18 AM
SlickStick wrote:
- LOL, realistic, shmealistic...what the hell do you
- want for $40.00?

What the H does $40 bucks got to do with what we are talking about?

- I'm sorry your panties are in such a bunch,

I'm sorry your momie put too much starch in yours.

- but it seems to me if you wanted the most realistic
- approach to this sim, it would be anything goes and
- all is fair in love and war...just like it was in
- real life. War is hell, Tagert.

That is about the most ignorant statement to date! Anything goes! LOL! Son... Ive pop zits on my back that had more going for them then you! If any of this was even remotly real you wouldnt be able to ram a bomber due to all the S pilling up in your seat at the sight of the fist tracer to pass by your head!

- Setting rules and limitations to what is and what
- isn't acceptable, especially that "let me land, I'm
- loaded with points rule.", lol, is more controlling
- the sim than letting the players create with the
- sim.

Another HIGH SCORE minded Quake flyer! Nuff Said, I see what you after. Now go play BF1942 and leave the apreciation for realism to us who care about what real men did.

- I say throw them all in a locked server and let the
- tactics win the day for the cleverest and the most
- resourceful team....

Cleverest! Resourceful! HEHEHAHEHAHAHAHAHAHHAAAA CLUELESS TO THE END!!

- using no outside influences or BS.

Oh belive me.. it is clear that no amout of outside influences will effect the Quake Crowd! That much I am sure of!! As for BS.. they have that in mass quanities!



<div style="width:1024;color:F0FFFF;fontsize:11pt;filter: glow[color=black,strength=8)">
<h2> TAGERT</h2>
<marquee><h3>If WAR was not the ANSWER........ Than what the H was your QUESTION?</h3></marquee>
</div>

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 06:32 AM
Again, you're confusing score with protecting a teammate, Target. Two different issues. You seem much more fixated on the scoring factor of being able to just dance over to a base and drop some bombs. Ain't gonna happen on any DF server I'm on./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Oh and RedDeth, you got that 9 upside-down. A friend from that squad did some fine work with a few aspects of Jane's WWII, but that's not the squad I spent the most time in.

BTW, WTH took ya so long?!? There have been people PMing me for over a year now, lol./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I mean, it's not like anybody who's known me didn't know./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

_______________________________________
çk?¯kT 2003**

Message Edited on 11/05/0312:35AM by SlickStick

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 06:40 AM
On Purpose Raming is for Frustrated People, if your going to try to down TB3 Bring the right weapon or Leave it alone

Might I suggest the A9 with mk108 wing cannons or the 109 with mk108 wing pods......

If you cant bring it down with guns Raming it is just Chicken S*** IMO sorry but thats how I feal about that raming crap.......

<CENTER> http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1065290873.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 07:03 AM
It was a valid tactic. I think its fine. Both sides used it. I would try but I would also try to save my skin and cut off a wing or something.

http://www.cbrnp.com/profiles/insignia/italy/incocca-tende-scaglia.jpg
Saluti!
<center>http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/images/mash_henry_blake.jpg (http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/)</center>

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 07:28 AM
- Again, WAR does not make US.. WE make WAR. To
- pretend that is not apart of us is to be ignorant of
- it and inviting it to happen. Embrace it, understand
- it, and you might be able to avoid it! Dont ignor it
- and pretend it is not part of us at a very BASIC
- level.. We are animals.. plane and simple


ok, to recap what you said:

Passion good or bad makes us human,

Some invite war by pretending that war is not "apart of us."

We are animals who should embrace war so that we can understand it and "avoid it!"

I think Im starting to understand your sig now: "If war is not the answer...what the H was the question?"

Are you saying that we should avoid war then? You are anti-war, right?

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 07:32 AM
Read the geneology of morals /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

rogo

<center><img src =http://www.uploadit.org/files/241003-rogo3.jpg>



"Those who long for exaltation look upwards. But I look downwards for I am the exalted." This was a quote from Nietzsche as he flew in his FW190 @ 20,000ft looking downwards.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 07:48 AM
Hans_Svetty wrote:
- ok, to recap what you said:
-
- Passion good or bad makes us human,

Yes.

- Some invite war by pretending that war is not "apart
- of us."

Yes.

- We are animals who should embrace war so that we can
- understand it and "avoid it!"

Yes.

- I think Im starting to understand your sig now: "If
- war is not the answer...what the H was the
- question?"
-
- Are you saying that we should avoid war then? You
- are anti-war, right?

Avoid yes, Anti no.. It is necessary sometimes... Maybe in the future we will grow out of it.. or be programed out of it.. But to think we are anywhere near that day is foolish! The world FOR THE MOST PART is a very viloent place... And war is all that some will understand and respect.. Peace follows Victory... It is the way it has allways been, is, and unless we change will be. And by change.. it means we wont be Human as we now know it.


<div style="width:1024;color:F0FFFF;fontsize:11pt;filter: glow[color=black,strength=8)">
<h2> TAGERT</h2>
<marquee><h3>If WAR was not the ANSWER........ Than what the H was your QUESTION?</h3></marquee>
</div>

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 07:55 AM
SlickStick wrote:
- Again, you're confusing score with protecting a
- teammate, Target. Two different issues. You seem
- much more fixated on the scoring factor of being
- able to just dance over to a base and drop some
- bombs. Ain't gonna happen on any DF server I'm
- on.

Im not the one that fist brought up the point thing... I simply pointed out that people that are into realistic settings dont even know what their score is.. just there number of down aircraft (kills) people like you that are into the *score* are into *games* like Quake. They try to justify what they do by saying they are just protecting thier buddys.. Sorry no sale!

If you feel justified in RAMMING a bomber... why stop there? Why dont you just RAM EVERYTHING? Why even take ammo? Just fly and RAM hit re-spawn and RAM agin? Why waist time jinking around and trying to out manuver someone.. Just go pettle to the metal and RAM them head on, from the side, from the top, from the belly.. why waist time learing how to fly and get on soemone six? Answer that simply question and then you MIGHT begin to understand.





<div style="width:1024;color:F0FFFF;fontsize:11pt;filter: glow[color=black,strength=8)">
<h2> TAGERT</h2>
<marquee><h3>If WAR was not the ANSWER........ Than what the H was your QUESTION?</h3></marquee>
</div>

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 08:05 AM
DeBaer.534 wrote:
-
- MB_Lerxster wrote:
--i can count on one hand how many times I have rammed
-- bombers
-
- thats the point, you are still able to use your hand
- counting your collisions, in real life, that would
- be a problem after ramming a bomber down.
-
- and so, theres no honour in ramming someone in a
- flight sim. it has just a bit of braveness (which is
- almost equivalent to madness), because youll make
- yourself very disliked in repeating it.
-
----
- Regards, DeBaer
-
--I fear nothing but the ground-
-

Am I missing the point or is this just a game?

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 10:22 AM
If you want to simulate then surely after your inevitable death you should leave the server because pilots only had one life. You're right I should've bailed before the collision! :-p

MB_Lerxster wrote:
-
- DeBaer.534 wrote:
--
-- MB_Lerxster wrote:
---i can count on one hand how many times I have rammed
--- bombers
--
-- thats the point, you are still able to use your hand
-- counting your collisions, in real life, that would
-- be a problem after ramming a bomber down.
--
-- and so, theres no honour in ramming someone in a
-- flight sim. it has just a bit of braveness (which is
-- almost equivalent to madness), because youll make
-- yourself very disliked in repeating it.
--
-----
-- Regards, DeBaer
--
---I fear nothing but the ground-
--
-
- Am I missing the point or is this just a game?
-
-

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 10:27 AM
cant wait to fly against you again chase. youve never beaten us or me yet.youve lost every match and flight so keep that motor mouth runnin till aow .

www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net) home of the 11 time Champions Team AFJ. 6 Years Flying. Semper Invictus! <img src ="http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_120_1065509047.jpg">

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 11:18 AM
Well in my opinion ramming TB3's is unecessary, and only shows how green a pilot really is.

For one it's a big slow dumb bomber that's good at one thing... taking hits.

One thing it's not good at is flying with a full bomb load on less than 4 engines. So it's pretty simply on pass #1 hammer either one of it's outboard engines. It doesn't take much to put those clunkers out of commision.
Unless he's right at the target he'll have no choice, but to drop his bombs, and run for home.
If he still closing on the target on pass #2 hammer the inboard engine on the same side as the last run.

Now he's in a bad way as he's got a full bomb load, and is missing 2 engines on the same side. He has no choice, but to drop the bombs or fall like a rock. Even if he does drop his bombs on two engines he probably won't make it back home.
There's no reason a 109 can't surgically remove all 4 of a TB3's engines with machineguns alone, and at a decently safe range. I've gotten 3 engine on one pass before in a 109.

I also fly TB3's on occasion when I feel like it, and I know exactly what they will take. There's no telling how many times I've gunned down 3+ enemy fighters who come in spraying to include 190's with dual mk108 pods.
You simply have to be able to be a gunner, and keep putting out engine fires.

So rules of thumb stay away from the front of a TB3. The nose gunner has a great range of fire. He'll rock you, and as you pass the other two will join in the fun.
Coming in diagonally doesn't work well at all either. Also don't break off from the TB3, and fly parallel to see if it's going down. Gunners love that sort of stuff.

Come in high, and in a steep dive, or up from underneath.

So there that solves it! Now everyone knows how to stop a TB3 from at least hitting it's target with bomb's. Ramming will prove only that you can't fly straight enough to shoot, but that you are capable of driving a Honda civic into the side of a building. lol

C'mon if your a good enough pilot to be able to ram them, and survive you should be good enough to pop it's engines.

Man though on another note flying those things is fun! Nothing beats the fun of shooting the same guy down 3 times in one mission.
First time was shortly after take-off, and he was in a Buffalo. Halfway there I shoot down a 109, and it was him again. Then almost there this 190 comes diving in on my tail with dual mk108's hammering away. Downed him again although invitably I was forced to drop bombs, and run for home lol.

Every take-off is optional, but every landing is mandatory!

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 11:32 AM
There's nothing that annoys me more then being rammed. Especially when you've just spent at least 10 minuites gaining altitude and getting to the enemy base

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 11:43 AM
What you fail to understand is that I decided to ram whilst playing on a realism server and in defense of my airfield . Yes I made the mistake of not arming for a TB3 attack but then I didn't plan to attack a TB3.

How would a pilot react to the certain desctruction of his airfield? Land and hit refly? er not! With the engine gone and little hope left I roleplayed a scenario!

You say it's ok to shoot the same guy down 3 times but for him to counter that assault with a ram is "green". Ok fine.

Ramming in the spirit of the server for me is as cool as vulching is imho.



Hopperfly22 wrote:
- Well in my opinion ramming TB3's is unecessary, and
- only shows how green a pilot really is.
-
- For one it's a big slow dumb bomber that's good at
- one thing... taking hits.
-
- One thing it's not good at is flying with a full
- bomb load on less than 4 engines. So it's pretty
- simply on pass #1 hammer either one of it's outboard
- engines. It doesn't take much to put those clunkers
- out of commision.
- Unless he's right at the target he'll have no
- choice, but to drop his bombs, and run for home.
- If he still closing on the target on pass #2 hammer
- the inboard engine on the same side as the last run.
-
- Now he's in a bad way as he's got a full bomb load,
- and is missing 2 engines on the same side. He has
- no choice, but to drop the bombs or fall like a
- rock. Even if he does drop his bombs on two engines
- he probably won't make it back home.
- There's no reason a 109 can't surgically remove all
- 4 of a TB3's engines with machineguns alone, and at
- a decently safe range. I've gotten 3 engine on one
- pass before in a 109.
-
- I also fly TB3's on occasion when I feel like it,
- and I know exactly what they will take. There's no
- telling how many times I've gunned down 3+ enemy
- fighters who come in spraying to include 190's with
- dual mk108 pods.
- You simply have to be able to be a gunner, and keep
- putting out engine fires.
-
- So rules of thumb stay away from the front of a TB3.
- The nose gunner has a great range of fire. He'll
- rock you, and as you pass the other two will join in
- the fun.
-
- Coming in diagonally doesn't work well at all
- either. Also don't break off from the TB3, and fly
- parallel to see if it's going down. Gunners love
- that sort of stuff.
-
- Come in high, and in a steep dive, or up from
- underneath.
-
- So there that solves it! Now everyone knows how to
- stop a TB3 from at least hitting it's target with
- bomb's. Ramming will prove only that you can't fly
- straight enough to shoot, but that you are capable
- of driving a Honda civic into the side of a
- building. lol
-
- C'mon if your a good enough pilot to be able to ram
- them, and survive you should be good enough to pop
- it's engines.
-
- Man though on another note flying those things is
- fun! Nothing beats the fun of shooting the same guy
- down 3 times in one mission.
- First time was shortly after take-off, and he was in
- a Buffalo. Halfway there I shoot down a 109, and it
- was him again. Then almost there this 190 comes
- diving in on my tail with dual mk108's hammering
- away. Downed him again although invitably I was
- forced to drop bombs, and run for home lol.
-
- Every take-off is optional, but every landing is
- mandatory!

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 12:49 PM
I have just invented an anti-ram device, it is a small box of tricks that connects to teh USB port on your computer.

The user then places a virtual reality suit on including a helmet all of this plugs into the usb adapter.

Once a game of online IL2 starts the user is imersed in the whole experience of flying a real aircraft.

If the player rams another aircraft a small steel bolt will be fired into his head just behind the temple. Voila, problem solved.

www.battle-fields.com/commscentre (http://www.battle-fields.com/commscentre)

Dedicated gaming.

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 01:52 PM
We can argue about the historical aspects of whether A or B rammed during the War or not until we are blue in the face, but it really only boils down to the game that we are all playing.

Personally, having flown a TB3 and had trouble taking off let alone dropping my bombs on target, I would not like to be rammed, I also don't like being vulched either.

But, if one guy stays above our field rather than dashing off on his own to dog fight then the vulcher will find it harder. If the TB3 has an escort then the enemy will find it harder.

Team work is the key, I played a game with I think it was Viper and someone else, they were flying TB3's and we were providing fighter escort. So there were 6 fighters and 2 bombers. How good was it.. yup, fantastic. This is what the games all about! So next time you see a bomber taking off, escort him, then we might get more bombers and bigger fights.

etc

/Mad

Cpt-Madcowz
Comsa (http://www.comsa.co.uk)



"When the hunter comes, the tiger runs with the deer."

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 01:56 PM
Red, over the last year of Jane's I murdered your squad and anybody else I flew in that game. I used to have so much fun dogging you guys and rattling your cages over chat at the same time, in every game I played against you guys./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Your squad's dominance ended once certain aspects of your performance were brought to light and people were smartened up. Which is also why, once that game was locked down, y'all disappeared when you knew the end was inevitable./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Fast forward to IL2 and FB and we see the inherent weaknesses that your squad hasn't been able to overcome and it proves even more how crap your "skills" were in Jane's.

However, we won't go into that here. My soon-to-be-published website will have a nice forum section to discuss history and all the juicy little details of what motivates a squadron to do the things they did.

It will be quite eye-opening for some people.

Tagert, no need to RAM fighters. They go down easily enough with 20mms. Ramming a bomber is a last ditch effort, reserved for a desperate situation. It just so happens, I found a way to do it and not die. After lag absorbs half my ammo and the TB3 has absorbed the other half, in one wing, if I run out, it's no ammo rammo time for bombers.

I'm glad people have other opinions about it, but on a server that has some nads, I've never heard a whine from any unescorted bomber pilot who was downed trying to deliver his payload.

Ramming is a fool's tactic. Hell, I never do headons even. But, when push comes to shove and that TB3 is still heading for my base, he's going down anyway I can achieve the kill./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

_______________________________________
çk?¯kT 2003**

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 02:05 PM
I dont know, if you have less than 1024 MB, I would RAM. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/Fehler.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 02:51 PM
MB_Lerxster wrote:
-
- DeBaer.534 wrote:
--
-- MB_Lerxster wrote:
---i can count on one hand how many times I have rammed
--- bombers
--
-- thats the point, you are still able to use your hand
-- counting your collisions, in real life, that would
-- be a problem after ramming a bomber down.
--
-- and so, theres no honour in ramming someone in a
-- flight sim. it has just a bit of braveness (which is
-- almost equivalent to madness), because youll make
-- yourself very disliked in repeating it.
--
--
-
- Am I missing the point or is this just a game?
-
-


yep youre missing the point.
ramming on intention in a flight sim -> lame, honorless
ramming in real life -> honor (if you died for a good thing, eg protecting you relatives down on the ground)

this IS just a game, so theres nothing brave in doing lame tactics where you die, because you hit refly and appear again.

---
Regards, DeBaer

-I fear nothing but the ground-

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 03:49 PM
DeBaer.534 wrote:

- yep youre missing the point.
- ramming on intention in a flight sim -> lame,
- honorless
- ramming in real life -> honor (if you died for a
- good thing, eg protecting you relatives down on the
- ground)
-
- this IS just a game, so theres nothing brave in
- doing lame tactics where you die, because you hit
- refly and appear again.
-
----
- Regards, DeBaer
-
--I fear nothing but the ground-
-

So what you are saying is that I shouldn't roleplay...

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 05:00 PM
my thinking is that you may freely roleplay, but not by making the game horrible to other players that play the game with another idea. if the plane i was wasting my whole ammo at didnt crash, either i did my job worse, or he did his good. now it is up to me to save my virtual ***, after getting in this mess, or just go back home (in case it was a bomber)

---
Regards, DeBaer

-I fear nothing but the ground-

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 05:11 PM
SlickStick wrote:
- Tagert, no need to RAM fighters. They go down
- easily enough with 20mms.

I figued as much.. I knew you wouldnt asnwer the question, because in doing so you would realise your wrong.

- Ramming a bomber is a
- last ditch effort, reserved for a desperate
- situation.

Ramming a bomber, on purpose, is a SKILLESS, GUTLESS, and down right UN-COOL thing to do.

- It just so happens, I found a way to do
- it and not die.

Well good for you, but it is still a SKILLESS, GUTLESS and down right UN-COOL thing to do.

- After lag absorbs half my ammo and
- the TB3 has absorbed the other half, in one wing, if
- I run out, it's no ammo rammo time for bombers.

Yes, we know what you skill level is. If you knew how to fly correctly RAMING would not be necessary. Quake on Dude!


<div style="width:1024;color:F0FFFF;fontsize:11pt;filter: glow[color=black,strength=8)">
<h2> TAGERT</h2>
<marquee><h3>If WAR was not the ANSWER........ Than what the H was your QUESTION?</h3></marquee>
</div>

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 05:21 PM
LOL, accept the fact that not everybody shares your opinions or views, Tagert. I tend to fly on the servers where the competition is, not the whiners.

My advice to you, don't fly a bomber on a DF server I'm on if you don't want to be downed by any means necessary.

MUHAHAHAHA!!!/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

_______________________________________
çk?¯kT 2003**

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 05:21 PM
Hopperfly22 wrote:
- Ramming will prove only that you can't fly
- straight enough to shoot, but that you are capable
- of driving a Honda civic into the side of a
- building. lol

HEHEHAHAHAHAHEHAHAa... That does seem to be the skill level of this bunch! Funny how many ways and reason they can come up with to justify ramming... when in truth they are just unable to admit they dont have the skill level yet to do it the right way. To admit that ramming is bad, they would have to admit thier skill is poor... That would never happen in the Quake arena.. So why do we expect it to happen with this bunch? I only hope that one day they will grow up and be able to apreciate the *skill* over the *kill*.


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<h2> TAGERT</h2>
<marquee><h3>If WAR was not the ANSWER........ Than what the H was your QUESTION?</h3></marquee>
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XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 05:25 PM
SlickStick wrote:
- LOL, accept the fact that not everybody shares your
- opinions or views, Tagert. I tend to fly on the
- servers where the competition is, not the whiners.

Oh dont missunderstand me.. I fully realise there are shoot em up Quake type servers out there... My point is if you want the HIGH SCORE go to one of those.. but if you want a more realistic experance go to one were people do complain about peopel ramming bombers (ie what you call whiners) where <h2> the skill is more important than the kill</h2>

- My advice to you, don't fly a bomber on a DF server
- I'm on if you don't want to be downed by any means
- necessary.
-
- MUHAHAHAHA!!!

And my advice to you still stands... Take a moment and answer the question!

<div style="width:1024;color:F0FFFF;fontsize:11pt;filter: glow[color=black,strength=8)">
<h2> TAGERT</h2>
<marquee><h3>If WAR was not the ANSWER........ Than what the H was your QUESTION?</h3></marquee>
</div>

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 05:31 PM
However, I am looking forward to hearing you cry, when I do "run" into you in a bomber on a DF server./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I apply the preservation rule. Preserve my team and base and we can win. I think it's time I got back to flying BP servers, where the men are men and the sheep are scared./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

They know how to really let loose in this game and let the chips fall where they may.

Sorry, you take the points aspect so serious, Tagert. I like the cleverness aspect of the game and I feel honor to my team is more important than honor to my virtual enemy. I ask no quarter in this game and I give no quarter.

I tell them, down me on my server anyway you can, because I'll be attempting to do the same to you.

"Fight hard, win with honor and die with dignity."

I don't see how honor has anything to do with getting the job done, within the boundaries the game provides, any way you need to protect your M8s. Best you learn some better evasive tactics if you don't want to be losing wing tips, once out of every 5 times I fail to shoot you down normally./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

_______________________________________
çk?¯kT 2003**

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 05:34 PM
See, that's the point you miss, ramming is just another skill in the arsenal, to be used at my discretion. It's the law of the land, kill or be killed.

How many times in a row, would I have to shoot your bomber down before it was ok for a wing tip ram once in awhile, when I ran out of ammo?

As a last resort, any port in a storm, Tagert. If I prevent you from bombing my base, I feel I did my job and did it well./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

_______________________________________
çk?¯kT 2003**

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 05:51 PM
SlickStick wrote:
- See, that's the point you miss, ramming is just
- another skill in the arsenal, to be used at my
- discretion.


<h1>SKILL</h1> HEHEHEAHEHAHEHAHEHAHEHAHEHAeee.. well for what you lack in skill you make up for in humor! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- It's the law of the land, kill or be killed.

Aye, good one, I love all those on linners you Quake guys keep comming up with! Each and everyone of them translates into *poor skills*

- How many times in a row, would I have to shoot your
- bomber down before it was ok for a wing tip ram once
- in awhile, when I ran out of ammo?

Ill answer that once you answer my question! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- As a last resort, any port in a storm, Tagert. If I
- prevent you from bombing my base, I feel I did my
- job and did it well

So brave when the re-spawn button is there. Your justifcation of ramming and then to go as far as note that some real pilots did it during the war dihonors what they did for their country.. They gave their all, you gave a simulated life. Dont dishonor what they did by using that as part of your justification for doing so.

It all boils down to this... there are two types of simulated pilots...

1) The kind that take off
2) The kind that taek off, and later on land.

You are type 1 where you fly around until one of two things happens... you run out of ammo due to your bad aim and flying skills or run out of gas.. In either case it is followed by you looking for something to ram.

Dont worrie, you and I will most likly never meet online, I dont fly in the servers with all the realistic options turned off! MUHEHEHAHHAHAHAHAAAAA!



<div style="width:1024;color:F0FFFF;fontsize:11pt;filter: glow[color=black,strength=8)">
<h2> TAGERT</h2>
<marquee><h3>If WAR was not the ANSWER........ Than what the H was your QUESTION?</h3></marquee>
</div>

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 06:09 PM
LOL, believe whatever makes you happy, Tagert. If it makes you feel better to think that ramming takes no skill and that's all I have, knock yourself out. You'll find out differently. One thing I've learned over the years, believe what people say because it's true for them./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Just like Red is going to find out what I already know. He fails to realize that I've been flying him and the AFJ for the past two years and I know what every member is capable of. My only arrogance is in my contempt for the destruction of online competition in Jane's WWII and the methods used to do it.

I will most assuredly remedy the past with the present and with the help of a few friends, ensure that Red and his ilk, pay the ultimate penalty for their transgressions./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

_______________________________________
çk?¯kT 2003**

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 08:27 PM
SlickStick wrote:
- LOL, believe whatever makes you happy, Tagert. If
- it makes you feel better to think that ramming takes
- no skill and that's all I have, knock yourself out.

Consdier it done! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- You'll find out differently. One thing I've learned
- over the years, believe what people say because it's
- true for them.

What color is the sky in your world? Over here it is blue.

- Just like Red is going to find out what I already
- know. He fails to realize that I've been flying him
- and the AFJ for the past two years and I know what
- every member is capable of. My only arrogance is in
- my contempt for the destruction of online
- competition in Jane's WWII and the methods used to
- do it.

Im sorry, were you under the impression that I care about you Quake like persona?

- I will most assuredly remedy the past with the
- present and with the help of a few friends, ensure
- that Red and his ilk, pay the ultimate penalty for
- their transgressions.

WOW! So brave when the bullets are not real!

Well the question still stands.. I know I know.. you wont addresses it.. But I do have one simple request.. Ill even go as far as to beg you.. and the rest like you.

<h2>PLEASE</h2>

Dont dishonor the real men who gave thier all to save thier loved ones by sacaficing thier lifes and ramming a bomber with thier airplane. You trying to justify what you do online by pointing to those real men only belittles what they did.

If you want to be Quake-ish.. Knock yourself out.. There are plenty of servers out there for you guys with the cockpits turned off, padlock on, complex eng mangment off, unlimited fule and ammo.. So you go do your thing and Ill go do mine.. Just know they are not the same thing.. And that is fine! No hard feelings! That is the beauty of IL2 there are plenty of options.. Enough to make it Quake like for you and yours and Enough to give a realisitc flavor to guys like me.



<div style="width:1024;color:F0FFFF;fontsize:11pt;filter: glow[color=black,strength=8)">
<h2> TAGERT</h2>
<marquee><h3>If WAR was not the ANSWER........ Than what the H was your QUESTION?</h3></marquee>
</div>

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 09:31 PM
youll build a website about your ramblings slickstick? thats rich i cant wait!!! looool please finish it soon !

www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net) home of the 11 time Champions Team AFJ. 6 Years Flying. Semper Invictus! <img src ="http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_120_1065509047.jpg">

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 09:44 PM
No ramming , just a poor choice, takes too much time to get set up for a Brun and just not cool in a game. Real life scenareos may be different but a no no in my view.

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 11:09 PM
LOL, Tagert, you're definitely one in a million. Hopefully, ten million./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

You play the game your way, I'll play the game mine. Too damned bad if you don't like it, my friend. I suggest you don't fly bombers in my vicinity./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
_____________________________________________

Ah Red, Red, Red. Sigh, so many things went on behind the scenes, so much information gathered, so many confessionals listened to, so many utility programs developed to expose and the best part of it all, so much undeniable proof that you'll be eating those words to have it posted. I guarantee./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

And in case anybody is wondering, I have every bit of the skill needed to back up any claims that I make. And just to show that I'm willing to give you a sample of what you and the others will be in for, Red, this Friday I will put up my server from 8:00PMEST until the cows come home, unless I'm dead or in jail, and you can attempt to fly against me at your leisure.

I suggest you make an online track, however, because you will need something to review later when you are trying to figure out why you keep ending up in a smoking wreck on the ground./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

_______________________________________
çk?¯kT 2003**

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 11:27 PM
SlickStick wrote:
- LOL, Tagert, you're definitely one in a million.
- Hopefully, ten million.

Agreed 100%!

- You play the game your way, I'll play the game mine.

Roger, what part of what I said did you not understand when I said Ill play it realistic like and you play it Quake like?

- Too damned bad if you don't like it, my friend. I

It has nothing to do with like or dislike, Im just pointing out the facts that some people like a realistic arena with realistic tatics employed and others like you like the shoot em up Quake stuff.. I even went as far as to point that that is fine!! Feel Free!! There are plenty of Quake like servers out there for you to enjoy!

- suggest you don't fly bombers in my vicinity.

Again, what part of what I said did you not understand? I thought I made it clear? If not allow me to say it again, I DONT FLY IN THE UN-REALISTIC servers with un-limited ammo, no black outs, no cockpit, etc.. So the chances of you and me crossing paths online are very slim.

Oh.. and you still havent answered my question.. And I hope you will consder my plea to you not to dishonor the *real* men with your Quake like actions! Ill thank you in advance of that.



<div style="width:1024;color:F0FFFF;fontsize:11pt;filter: glow[color=black,strength=8)">
<h2> TAGERT</h2>
<marquee><h3>If WAR was not the ANSWER........ Than what the H was your QUESTION?</h3></marquee>
</div>

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 11:56 PM
Thanks mates. This thread killed bout an hour of idle time at work.....lol.



<center>
http://www.rcaf-squadron.org/willyvic/images/mig3u.jpg

WV

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 12:01 AM
Slapstick, i mean slick.....friday night i can make it till about maybe 8 pm pacific time. i can fly from 5 till almost 8 pacific im on every day in evenings for about four hours a night or so . your time will work fine. im assuming non beta. ive yet to find a pilot that can overmatch me . this shall be interesting. dont worry tracks will be taken and posted here
www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net) home of the 11 time Champions Team AFJ. 6 Years Flying. Semper Invictus! <img src ="http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_120_1065509047.jpg">

Message Edited on 11/05/03 03:03PM by RedDeth

Message Edited on 11/05/0303:04PM by RedDeth

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 03:54 AM
Reddeath vs slickstick...

Ahh...this is going to be good.

Just need to cue the corny music from Star Trek when Kirk and Spock were doing their gladiator duel. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://palpatine.chez.tiscali.fr/Dilbert/Fist-Of-Death.gif


ALICE FOR MODERATOR!

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 12:30 PM
So, then there should be no problems with you making the server, Red. It will be up from around 5PM Pacific until I've proven my point or nobody else shows up./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I highly doubt that you will be posting a track from the encounter, but maybe others will like to see the show I'm about to put on, so feel free.

My advice is to be prepared, Red. And no wine drinking before flying. I want you at your peak and not full of excuses and sloppy play. You will see what I've learned over the last two years, up close and personal-like./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


_______________________________________
çk?¯kT 2003**

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 03:54 PM
wait a minute ....i visited this thread 2 days ago.....you mean to tell me that some people actually condone frickin rammin airplanes cuz they can't shoot them down!!

dag........man this forum/community is going down by the microsecond

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 04:47 PM
jollies wrote:
- wait a minute ....i visited this thread 2 days
- ago.....you mean to tell me that some people
- actually condone frickin rammin airplanes cuz they
- can't shoot them down!!

Sad aint it? Funny thing is the two biggest advocates *FOR* ramming bombers are now positioning and posturing and pretending to be manly and challenging each other to a duel... Funny how brave people are when the bullets are not real! But it does give one some insight to how their brains work.. You see a lot of this kind of *challenges* in the shoot em up Quake type of games... Which also explains why and how, in their minds, they can justify ramming a bomber as some sort of valiant and Nobel thing to do... protecting the innocent and justice, in that they gave their life in doing so! And they say Saturday morning cartoons don't effect children! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


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<h2> TAGERT</h2>
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XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 05:07 PM
target your lack of maturity is very irritating.

The fact that other people have an alternate view to yours and the fact that this ramming thread is based on one instance where I roleplayed on a real server is quite clearly beyond you comprehension. Now stop it and put the fizzy juice down why don't you. Unless you are roleplaying a whining kid that is http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 05:39 PM
Tagert, you confuse real life and game life. Sorry you are so wrapped up in that aspect. Real life honor and game honor are different when you can hit refly, I agree.

Enjoy your game any way you see fit. The best part about this game is that there is never a lack of players who agree with any way someone wants to play this game and a person can always find like-minded servers to fly on.

I fly every settings server under the sun, from FR to Medium with no icons and even an easy server now and then to show them why they need to increase difficulty settings to get better./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif It's the only way to be completely well-rounded and be able to fly against the best at each setting level.

You make way too many assumptions for a whiner who is crying about being downed on a dogfight server because you were rammed. It happens. Do what you must about it. Leave the server, cry in the chat, berate the guy, but sheesh let if go, man, let it go. Accept that the true winners do not need to whine about any tactic used against them and they never do./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I'm also done with this issue, as I've exhausted my position and I have much, much bigger fish to fry this Friday in preparation for Judgement Day./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

_______________________________________
çk?¯kT 2003**

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 05:52 PM
Can't we all agree to disagree, thank the lord that we are all created differently and remember an old chinese proverb:

If we all took the same path through the jungle.... it would become very muddy.

Ok, it may not be chinese :-)


/Mad

Cpt-Madcowz
Comsa (http://www.comsa.co.uk)



"When the hunter comes, the tiger runs with the deer."

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 06:02 PM
"When the hunter comes, the tiger runs with the deer."

Very profound and quite applicable to FB, too, Madcowz./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

_______________________________________
çk?¯kT 2003**

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 07:07 PM
SlickStick wrote:
- Tagert, you confuse real life and game life. Sorry
- you are so wrapped up in that aspect. Real life
- honor and game honor are different when you can hit
- refly, I agree.
-
- Enjoy your game any way you see fit. The best part
- about this game is that there is never a lack of
- players who agree with any way someone wants to play
- this game and a person can always find like-minded
- servers to fly on.
-
- I fly every settings server under the sun, from FR
- to Medium with no icons and even an easy server now
- and then to show them why they need to increase
- difficulty settings to get better.
- It's the only way to be
- completely well-rounded and be able to fly against
- the best at each setting level.
-
- You make way too many assumptions for a whiner who
- is crying about being downed on a dogfight server
- because you were rammed. It happens. Do what you
- must about it. Leave the server, cry in the chat,
- berate the guy, but sheesh let if go, man, let it
- go. Accept that the true winners do not need to
- whine about any tactic used against them and they
- never do.
-
- I'm also done with this issue, as I've exhausted my
- position and I have much, much bigger fish to fry
- this Friday in preparation for Judgement Day.

<h1>YAWN</h1>

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XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 07:08 PM
MB_Lerxster wrote:
- target your lack of maturity is very irritating.
-
- The fact that other people have an alternate view to
- yours and the fact that this ramming thread is based
- on one instance where I roleplayed on a real server
- is quite clearly beyond you comprehension. Now stop
- it and put the fizzy juice down why don't you.
- Unless you are roleplaying a whining kid that is http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

LOL! Nice try! Sorry if I struck a nerve!

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