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View Full Version : OT where are 6d0f forums to tell my idea of the gunsight effect



raaaid
11-23-2006, 08:09 AM
i know next step on virtual reality is the gunsight effect( keep a constant apparent size however distance to screen)

gunsights work this way it would be nice that the first game to introduce this feature was aplanes simulation but i have a feeling it wont

im sure if i let know the right person in 2 years all 6dof games will have this effect

so where are the 6dof forums whre the guys who design 6dof work

Pollack2006
11-23-2006, 08:36 AM
http://forum.naturalpoint.com/ubbthreads.php?Cat=0&C=2

x6BL_Brando
11-23-2006, 08:39 AM
It may be a language thing...but I can't understand what you're talking about.

I can tell you that the NaturalPoint forums are the place to go - because NP are the makers of TrackIR and the inventors of Vector/6DoF.
But whether they will understand your meaning is debatable.

B.

heywooood
11-23-2006, 09:12 AM
I think raaaid is referring to 'forced perspective' wherein the object, to simulate being closer to the eye, is enlarged in the game/screen to give that impression.

Lets say you are flying a plane IRL with an iron gunsight and you move your head in close to get a better fix on the target...the gunsight doesn't get any bigger - it is still 3" in diameter or so, so that if you put a ruler on it, it was 3" in dia. before you moved in closer and it is 3" in dia. after you moved your head in closer.

In a simulation - the actual gunsight dia. is increased to simulate that perspective from the r/l scenarion - in that the dia. of the 'image' of the gunsight changes as you move your 6dof equipped noggin forward - so that the sight fills the screen and is no longer the same diameter. Is that what you mean raaaiid? Its hard to tell but I think thats what you are after.

This is something that can't be done...and it is one of the crucible differences between what can be done with a comp. to simulate this experience and what cannot be done...or maybe not....

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x6BL_Brando
11-23-2006, 12:34 PM
In a simulation - the actual gunsight dia. is increased to simulate that perspective from the r/l scenarion - in that the dia. of the 'image' of the gunsight changes as you move your 6dof equipped noggin forward - so that the sight fills the screen and is no longer the same diameter.

That's where you lose me.
Lean forwards towards your monitor and it fills more of your field of vision. It's still the same size, but it appears bigger (because your eye is closer).
In a simulation of leaning your head towards an object (in this case a gunsight) then how else can this be represented in two dimensions except by enlarging (on the 2D screen) the object you're approaching?
The ruler is irrelevant. Objects appear larger the closer you get to them - that is a standard function of the Mark One eyeball - simply because we couldn't function without this particular optical 'illusion'. We'd spend our time walking into trees and being eaten by wild animals.
"Appears" is the key word here.

B.

raaaid
11-23-2006, 03:04 PM
i call it gunsight effect because it would work the same way

double distance to the screen-gunsight then double size of image-crosshair measured with a rule, result: a plane at 100 m always takes the same angle of your view however distance to screen

x6BL_Brando
11-23-2006, 03:21 PM
Ok - I understand now.

B

KaleunFreddie
11-23-2006, 04:07 PM
A D-a.m good idea http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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WB_Outlaw
11-23-2006, 04:36 PM
Such an effect is a total waste of time and effort. Besides the fact that the TrackIR only measures CHANGE in distance, not actual distance, the amount you actually move your head when using a TrackIR is so small, it won't make any real difference anyway.

--Outlaw.

BfHeFwMe
11-23-2006, 05:51 PM
Actually it's a wrong idea, the physics principle behind the reflector gunsight is exactly the opposite. The ring projected on the glass must never change size with the distance your physical eye moves. If it did the ring sight would be totally worthless as a range finder.

A truely useful range finder must remain a constant size at all times compared to the distance of your target from the sight, the old iron fixed sights weren't very good at this. There were ways to overcome the problem with iron, increase the total distance, which you see on many of the games planes like the P-40 with sight way out on the hood.

Moving your head six inches in a distance of 50 inches is a smaller % than a fixed sight at 15, making it better for ranging a shot.

The mechanical breakthrough with a reflector was the use of a series of lenses from the bottom with a bulb projected up to the sight glass. The distance from the reticle below being projected up to the glass "NEVER" changes. It's a very short distance, but none the less never changes no matter how far or near you move your eye.

Only the size of the glass holding the image changes with the shifting of your eye distance.

To sum it up, game is 100% right, you is completely and irrevokably wrong on this one, be sures.

If this were not so, than explain why many planes have a ring size adjuster for different sized aircraft wing spans. Couldn't they simply move their head closer to get a bigger ring? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

WB_Outlaw
11-23-2006, 06:30 PM
The distance raaaid is talking about is NOT the distance from your virtual eye to the gunsight, but rather the distance from your physical eye to your monitor. At least that's what I THINK he's talking about. His selectively poor English makes it very hard to figure out what he really means much of the time.

Regardless, I see no need to turn my monitor into a window. If I were actually sitting in an aircraft my view would not look like I was looking through a window and the game is trying to simulate what I would actually see, not what I would see if I were looking through a window.

It would be nice if he were to post a diagram or two but he has been asked that on many other occasions and he refuses to do so.

--Outlaw.

Philipscdrw
11-23-2006, 06:53 PM
Wait a mo...

So, in a WW2 aircraft, if the pilot leans forwards or backwards, the apparent size of the reflector gunsight stays constant? (i.e. it is like it's an infinite distance away, your motion does not change its position?)

If the visual modelling of the gunsight needs to change, it's 1C:Maddox who need to be told, not NaturalPoint. (but I suspect it's already correct.)

Thinking of this, will people be using the fore-aft axis of a 6DoF TrackIR for head movement, or field-of-view?

And also, if TrackIR could emulate a joystick, you could map the fore-aft motion of your head to the Il-2 zoom joystick axis...<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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WB_Outlaw
11-23-2006, 07:15 PM
Even if it isn't correct as currently modeled, it should NOT change. The way it works now allows us to compensate for the limited visual detail of the monitor. Anything that would REDUCE this ability is just stupid.

--Outlaw.

LStarosta
11-23-2006, 08:12 PM
I think it should be like it is in the P-38 because it had fowler flaps and it could outturn Fw-190s.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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raaaid
11-24-2006, 05:53 AM
it should be optional so theres no reason to be against it

you have to understand the concept of apparent size, a 1m bar at 10 m will have the same apparent size than a 2m bar at 20 m,

take the crosshair on your screen if you look at the same crosshair at 20cm and then at 40 cm apparent size will be half at 40cm than at 20cm

how to solve this? very simple double the size on the screen of the crosshair image as you double distance to screen, on this way the apparent size of the crosshair will always be the same just as a real one

i know its difficult to understand but the effect is that youll see everything thats in the screen at a realistic apparent size, a plane at 100m will always take the same apparent size however distance to screen

i know this is the next step in VR and i know its gonna be introduced for sure what i dont know its wether it will be next year or in 10 years well at least i did what i could

Viper2005_
11-24-2006, 06:24 AM
all you have to do is calculate the angle which your screen subtends from your normal sitting position and set your FOV accordingly. In my case with a 17" screen at a pretty average distance gunsight view is the closest to an accurate FOV.

Accurate FOVs deprive you of peripheral vision and really hurt your SA unless you've got VR goggles or similar.

WB_Outlaw
11-24-2006, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by raaaid:
how to solve this? very simple double the size on the screen of the crosshair image as you double distance to screen, on this way the apparent size of the crosshair will always be the same just as a real one


If you take this route, you will also have to double the size of EVERYTHING (not just the gunsight) on the screen. Since your screen doesn't get bigger as you back away, it will show less and less. The effect is that your FOV will DECREASE as you back away from the monitor.

On the other hand, as you move your eye CLOSER to the screen, everything will get SMALLER, therefore expanding your FOV.

While it is accurate if you are looking through a window, even a child can see why it's a stupid concept for first person VR.



--Outlaw.

heywooood
11-24-2006, 01:24 PM
raaaid - I think your avatar text is spot on and kudos to the mod that put it there. It is Truth.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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