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View Full Version : 7.92mm Rheinmetall MG 17 and .50 cals



KG26_Alpha
12-11-2004, 11:54 AM
Ok which of these is the most powerful ?

KG26_Alpha
12-11-2004, 11:54 AM
Ok which of these is the most powerful ?

Von_Zero
12-11-2004, 02:46 PM
u gotta be joking right?
you're comparing a 7.92mm mg with a 12.7mm one?

KG26_Alpha
12-11-2004, 03:01 PM
Well something wrong then...
The Stuka B2/D3 has a single 7.92mm MG17 fitted to each wing, pull the trigger and the whole plane shakes around like its firing cannons.
Take a FM-2 F6F F4F F4U Corsair P47 P51 most have 4 x .50's or 8 x .50 ,,,,,,,,,,,,then turn the sound off and pull the trigger............you wouldnt notice you are even firing4 x or 8 x .50 mg's,.
The 109e's are the same also with the wing cannons no shake at all only nose firing cannon 109's produces shake...
So whats with the Stuka B2/D3 behaviour then??? Surely this is wrong.

Appologies for the loaded question too.

Von_Zero
12-11-2004, 03:44 PM
ahh, sry, i thought you were reffering to it's shell power, never thout about the recoil....
dunno about the p-51 and he likes, but the IARs are also shaking like hell when fireing the machineguns, but not even closer when using the cannons... the spit also has this behaviour....

fherathras
12-11-2004, 10:11 PM
f

Vipez-
12-12-2004, 06:03 PM
you do have a point there...

p1ngu666
12-12-2004, 08:29 PM
the stuka g, vs il2 3m http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

JG5_UnKle
12-13-2004, 01:47 AM
These are what I think of as "Arcade" features like the muzzle flash http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif the shake and recoil is put in to make the guns sound more 'meaty' and doesn't reflect anything else IMHO.

Like the muzzle flashes (until they were toned down) had nothing to do with reality at all except for night time conditions.

KG26_Alpha
12-13-2004, 10:50 AM
Well try strafing a cloumn with 2 x 7.92mm
Then with 8 x .50 cals
The stuka bounces all over the sky making aiming very dificult
8 x .50 theres no effect of recoil.

NorrisMcWhirter
12-13-2004, 11:33 AM
Hi,

I suspect this is a result of all the .50 cal whining ( Oleg said he changed the recoil modelling) + a mistake on the Stuka.

The only .50 cal equipped plane to give me any kind of recoil effect (FFB) is the Hellcat; everything else is imperceptible.

Cheers,
Norris

JaBo_HH-BlackSheep
12-13-2004, 11:41 AM
the lightning has badd a$$ shaking too, but i think it is a bit more than it should be, precice aiming is nearly impossible with the lightning.
the gunsight is juming over and over...
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
not nice.

Gibbage1
12-13-2004, 11:57 AM
I thought the D3 had 2x 20MM?

Von_Zero
12-13-2004, 12:03 PM
nope, D5 has 20mm, B2 and D3 have 7.92

KG26_Alpha
12-14-2004, 01:14 AM
Ya D5 has 2 x 20mm

Its mainly the wing mounted MG's as ALL aircraft with nose MG & cannons shake around to some degree.
But the stuka shouldnt be like it is with those 7.92's and its massive wing structure.

jurinko
12-14-2004, 03:59 AM
Once I asked Oleg about the Stuka MG17 gunshake and he replied:

"Cockpit shake is a separate module. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif So it has some distortions comparing to the caliber of weapon. It was need to make due to switchable function in a separate manner - cockpit shake and arcade weapon separately.

So you better look how they hit the water in a point of tuned for distance weapon."

jurinko
12-14-2004, 03:59 AM
"Cockpit shake is a separate module. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif So it has some distortions comparing to the caliber of weapon. It was need to make du to switchable function ion a separate manner - cockpit shake and arcade weapon separatelly.

So you better look how they hit the water in a point of tuned for distance weapon."

Oleg Maddox

WWMaxGunz
12-14-2004, 06:05 AM
Some things about the ways the models operate (I don't say 'work' because that
might imply actual physics so many people attribute to parts of the sim, which
is sloppy thinking.) seems to be seen as different effects on different PC's.

How many posts just of guns shaking planes now that in the same thread has so
many both get that and so many that do not? Same for some flying and damages
it seems, but not all posts of these are true, either.

If recoil also slows a plane down then some sway may be caused as speed change
gets the plane out of trim condition. If your stick setup is light then is your
pilot holding enough force against the shakes? And who may have toggled head
shake off since last full install and left it then forgotten?

Yes Norris, you KNOW that historically the .50's on all planes that used them
across the board scattered so bad to spray over 10 meters wide at only 150 meters
range. Don't let historic documents tell anyone different, including results
from firing at towed targets while in flight -- that is all just lies and
propaganda. The virtual model 1C used before, that was utterly true in all
respects and the scatter of planes on ground was due to gear shocks even in the
older plane models that didn't have gear shocks modelled. Yadda, yadda, whiners,
yadda, yadda. No chance the model missed anything at all, it is the documents
that are wrong, even guncam footages that don't show shots spread wide past the
targets are all wrong and .50 whiners ruined your sim. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif And then to add
for Badsight that is the first time the sim was changed for "noise" even if Oleg
said the same before summer 2002 about the 190's and all planes but Russian
modelled to ideal specs, it is US whiners who are the bads. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

KG26_Alpha
12-14-2004, 07:55 AM
I understand Olegs comment on the cockpit shaking, but this the whole aircraft shaking, making aiming 2 x 7.92mm mg's at moving colums unrealistic.
Can we have the proportional amount of recoil for the Stuka B2/D3. ?
Not much of a request I know but important for the ground pounders amongst us.

Jippo01
12-14-2004, 11:30 AM
I asked this question when I was betatesting the then new B-2, and reply from the team was that there is no particular shaking when firing mg's on it.

I didn't quite agree then, but that was their comment.


-jippo

VW-IceFire
12-15-2004, 08:55 PM
I admit, I haven't strafed a convoy yet...but I took a Stuka out and attacked a AAA emplacement and had no trouble keeping the guns on target. Yes it shakes a bit more...but so does the P-38.

Some planes shake, others don't as much. But I've never found it to be much trouble. Seriously, I was able, in a 400 kph dive on the AAA emplacement, keep the fire directly on target...not that I did anything to him...

Now, I will go and try a convoy proper.

How does the D-5 compair BTW?

KG26_Alpha
12-16-2004, 02:24 AM
Point is

2 x 7.92mm in large Stuka wing = shaking recoil
8 x .50 cals in wing mounted aircraft = no shakin no recoil

Im not talking bout nose mounted mg's .All planes with engine cowling mg's shake also.

With the D5 20mm wing mounted mg151's there no shaking just a slight dip in nose attitude when firing with or without bomb load.

WWMaxGunz
12-16-2004, 02:44 AM
Say if the aim is shaking or is it a graphic-type effect only.
Loads of tests were run on just aim shake compares before, both on
grounded and flying models. The people who did them took more care
than to just post again and again saying what they felt... well at
least SOME people did.

KG26_Alpha
12-16-2004, 02:49 AM
Thats the whole point, its not a graphical thing, it does affect aiming, and why is there such a difference in recoil on the wing mounted mg's ?

If you read this thread it has nothing to do with nose mounted MG's.

Which "others" were testing

Gunner_361st
12-16-2004, 10:13 AM
Airplane shake when firing weapons has always been very curious in IL-2 Series.

In the early versions, P-47 would actually see-saw laterally, back and forth, when firing all 8 guns.

Now, with new versions, (I use FB+AEP+PF 3.02BM)KI-84 noses down violently when firing all of it's guns. I was using the IB, the one with 2x 20mm Ho-5 in the nose and 2x 20mm Ho-5 in the wing. Fire all of them at same time, you'll notice the rather abrupt nose-down effect.

Also, check out the A6M's Type 99-1 or Type 99-2 20mm cannon. They seem practically recoilless... I remember one jamming when hit, and firing the other one, and having no recoil or kick to it to imbalance my aim.

WWMaxGunz
12-17-2004, 02:40 AM
Measuring deviation of nose.

1) map trigger to keyboard key, like spacebar, to seperate trigger activation from stick.
2) make a short track firing in bursts.
3) run the track back with devicelink to capture pitch data in a log, UDPSpeed or the like
will allow anyone to do that. hard part may be identifying where you fired!
4) make sure to capture stick data as well

Now you have data postable, just how much shake you are getting. Probably have to get
the data on less than 1 sec intervals for that, perhaps 1/10th or 2/10's seconds is why
to run collection during track playback. It really should be worth it to go from your
impression to your data.

KG26_Alpha
12-17-2004, 03:02 AM
Just fly a stuka B2/D3 fire mg's
then fly any WING ONLY mounted .50 cal aircraft.

Why make things so complcated when its sooo obvious ??