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GR142-Pipper
02-26-2006, 10:53 PM
Have others noticed in 4.04 that the landing gear seems to shear somewhat easily on take-off and/or landing rollout when putting rudder inputs to maintain heading? It seems to be airplane independent. Strange that something like this was included when in real life this type of failure due to rudder input was just about unheard of.

GR142-Pipper

TX-EcoDragon
02-26-2006, 11:11 PM
Yeah, I've been seeing that since 4.01 to some extent. . .pretty strange. I did mention that I thought it was was bit goofed to Oleg. :-/

TheGozr
02-26-2006, 11:29 PM
yes i did as well very extreme .. very. poor 109 when you think that it land better on grass then concrete. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

VF-19
02-26-2006, 11:29 PM
Actually, the reason may be due to the inclusion of ground effect. As you're barreling down the runway to take off, your plane starts to hover slightly over the ground. When you use rudder input to straighten yourself out, you dip a wing in the process, and BAM, a wheel comes off.

Try taking off while watching the external view, you'll see it.

DaimonSyrius
02-26-2006, 11:39 PM
This would appear to be a feature, and not a bug...
From 4.02 Readme.rtf:

Modifications and fixes
.../...
- Landing gear breaks easier when skidding

Cheers,
S.

FI-Aflak
02-27-2006, 12:33 AM
Look at your gear. The things are designed basically to only take a load in the vertical direction, and maybe a little in the direction of travel while braking. From their construction, that they would shear while sideskidding is plausable and ever probable. You don't hear about it because by the time any pilot takes a solo takeoff or landing he probably know better than to give extreme rudder inputs.

TX-Gunslinger
02-27-2006, 01:29 AM
Yeah..heh..

I have not noticed this on landing, but sure have on take off.

I think Pipper and I had simultaneous experiences the other night while he was flying red and I blue. In fact I lost two sets of gear in a row.

I lost one tonite on take off. It always happends just as the tail-wheel goes up and the rudder is free.

It's not from my wing dipping. It occurs in an FW while the wheels are still firmly in contact with the runway.

S~

NonWonderDog
02-27-2006, 03:52 AM
I'm not really sure how common this should be. I mean, these planes *were* capable of crosswind takeoffs and landings, right?

p-11.cAce
02-27-2006, 06:30 AM
The OFMC 109 is placarded to limit crosswinds to 10 knots or less. Many of these aircraft operated from large open fields or airfields with many runways to allow for variations in wind direction. All tailwheel aircraft have greater restrictions on crosswind take-offs and landings than tricycle gear aircraft - and if you are slithering around the runway at 40 or 50kph I'd think your gear would collapse! I rarely break a gear - but then again I never launch from spawn, always use a taxiway or runway, and slow down before turning off to park.

J_Anonymous
02-27-2006, 06:49 AM
When Ki 100 came out first in 4.01, I found it was almost impossible to land safely unless I "slide" onto the ground with fairly high speed (~300km), hence with decent lift --- any small vertical drop just before landing would collapse the landing gears (Ki 100 did not bounce). I think they changed it in 4.02. I guess the programmers set certain threshold values for the vertical and shear forces on landing gears that would collapse them, and maybe they are adjusting the threshold in each patch.

TgD Thunderbolt56
02-27-2006, 06:49 AM
It seems a bit too 'touchy' on takeoffs IMO. I don't haul a$$ accross the tarmac. I line up and throttle slowly using prodigious rudder. While the 109's had an undercarriage noted for its tendency to collapse under load, simply brushing the edge of the runway and losing both wheels catastrophically repeatedly seems a bit much.

I'm all for making a true scramble a little more challenging/realistic and have commented in the past at the uncharacteristically sturdy LG on many birds known for just the opposite. If I simply need to adapt to the new code, I will. But the change is definitely noticeable.


TB

rnzoli
02-27-2006, 08:42 AM
Originally posted by NonWonderDog:
I'm not really sure how common this should be. I mean, these planes *were* capable of crosswind takeoffs and landings, right? AFAIK when you do crosswind landing IRL, you have to step on the rudder moments before touchdown, in order to align your plane with the runway.

I have also lost a set of wheels on P39 in 4.02m version, when too violently stepped on the rudders during a landing roll. It is possible to make a 180 turn with sliding, but at lower speeds. High-speed sideways skidding will break the wheels off, which seems acceptable me. Not all warbirds were shot down - many were lost in landing/takeoff accidents.

I am not sure how many of us use the tail-wheel lock, but it helps to reduce oscillations during takeoff/landing. Even though it is not effective when the tail is in the air, but a straight acceleration usually makes it easier to takeoff without major rudder manipulation.

TX-EcoDragon
02-27-2006, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by FI-Aflak:
Look at your gear. The things are designed basically to only take a load in the vertical direction, and maybe a little in the direction of travel while braking. From their construction, that they would shear while sideskidding is plausable and ever probable. You don't hear about it because by the time any pilot takes a solo takeoff or landing he probably know better than to give extreme rudder inputs.

Indeed, however the fact is that the *real* aircraft will ground loop, and not simply shear it's gear off. This seems to have been added as a result of complaints about a lack of ground loop character in the sim which gave no real penalty for poor rudder technique in the sim. This doesn't really add to the realism factor or difficulty of tailwheel operations (which begins at taxi speed, not just at high speeds), though it might make people more cautious about excessive yaw.

TX-EcoDragon
02-27-2006, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by NonWonderDog:
I'm not really sure how common this should be. I mean, these planes *were* capable of crosswind takeoffs and landings, right?

They certainly were, but often they were landed on grass or €œsoft€ surfaces which are MUCH more forgiving of any yaw or drift during touchdown and rollout than hard surfaced runways are as the grass allows the wheels to slip laterally instead of inducing a ground loop. Additionally many airstrips had crosswind runways, and many grass strips were actually fairly round so that you could land directly into the wind. Of course many other strips were hard surfaces and afforded no other choice but a crosswind landing.

TX-EcoDragon
02-27-2006, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by p-11.cAce:
The OFMC 109 is placarded to limit crosswinds to 10 knots or less.
As a liability issue, not so much a design limitation. The tall and narrow gear design was not as "frogiving" as the wider stanced aircraft liek the 190 and P-51, and the gear were fairly weak on the 109s, but proper technique is all that's required to keep things in check, just like anything else.


Originally posted by p-11.cAce:
All tailwheel aircraft have greater restrictions on crosswind take-offs and landings than tricycle gear aircraft . . .

This is certainly not so. Tailwheel aircraft require greater pilot proficiency (and perhaps skill) than a tricycle gear design, however most tailwheel aircraft can actually handle greater crosswind components than trikes simply because of their generally greater control authority and their ability to either wheel or 3 pt land.

A great example is the Pitts series biplanes which are pretty much the most "difficult" to land aircraft around, even with no wind, add wind and people with limited crosswind proficiency bend them left and right, and yet in the hands of a proficient pilot they can handle crosswinds more severe than most other aircraft. The fact is, they do what you tell them to do, so you better know the right thing to tell them to do. . . if you do, it's a great landing aircraft, if you don't it won't forgive your mistakes. Trikes let you land drifting and with yaw, and don't care if you side-load the gear. . . that doesn't mean they have any higher max crosswind component. . , what they have is a higher lame pilot component.