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jurinko
01-09-2005, 01:36 AM
as some of us complain, it is highly unrealistic that we, flying "by wire" the planes with bowden controls, are able to achieve the full 50lb or how much force all the time during flight, 5 min full deflection stick pull etc. is possible. I would propose to introduce a fatigue factor, that the simulator engine accumulates the amount of stick forces the pilot applied and as his hands get tired, he is able to pull less and less until he gives himself a rest and the his ability to make movements with the stick is restored. One should better think when and how to engage since his virtual hands are not inexhaustible, oh what a word http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
It is true that according to Hartmanns book, some experienced German pilots in worse turning planes were able to defeat Russians in early stages of war by simple maneuvring so long that novice pilots in better turners get so tired that they broke off the turning circle and become eventually the victims. This would be not possible though.. everybody should have the same "stamina". As it is now, the planes do moves which you never see on guncamera movies, maybe only on aerobatics show. Out rolling anything else that P-38 in Fw 190 is almost impossible as all planes roll with max speed which is not achievable in prolonged flight.

jurinko
01-09-2005, 01:36 AM
as some of us complain, it is highly unrealistic that we, flying "by wire" the planes with bowden controls, are able to achieve the full 50lb or how much force all the time during flight, 5 min full deflection stick pull etc. is possible. I would propose to introduce a fatigue factor, that the simulator engine accumulates the amount of stick forces the pilot applied and as his hands get tired, he is able to pull less and less until he gives himself a rest and the his ability to make movements with the stick is restored. One should better think when and how to engage since his virtual hands are not inexhaustible, oh what a word http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
It is true that according to Hartmanns book, some experienced German pilots in worse turning planes were able to defeat Russians in early stages of war by simple maneuvring so long that novice pilots in better turners get so tired that they broke off the turning circle and become eventually the victims. This would be not possible though.. everybody should have the same "stamina". As it is now, the planes do moves which you never see on guncamera movies, maybe only on aerobatics show. Out rolling anything else that P-38 in Fw 190 is almost impossible as all planes roll with max speed which is not achievable in prolonged flight.

LEXX_Luthor
01-09-2005, 02:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>It is true that according to Hartmanns book, some experienced German pilots in worse turning planes were able to defeat Russians in early stages of war by simple maneuvring so long that novice pilots in better turners get so tired that they broke off the turning circle and become eventually the victims. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That seems reasonable, but...

Every gamer is a Hartmann. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif If we read our books we learn that real life WW2 pilots got exhausted from flying tight aerobatic turns in dogfight, flying high speed in turbulent weather, flying straight and level in long flights, flying in Xtreme Hot and Cold cockpit temperatures, and pulling any amount of stick movement at high "BnZ" attack speeds. We would need BnZ Stamina modeled along with TnB Stamina. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Blackjack174
01-09-2005, 09:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
That seems reasonable, but...

Every gamer is a Hartmann. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif If we read our books we learn that real life WW2 pilots got exhausted from flying tight aerobatic turns in dogfight, flying high speed in turbulent weather, flying straight and level in long flights, flying in Xtreme Hot and Cold cockpit temperatures, and pulling any amount of stick movement at high "BnZ" attack speeds. We would need BnZ Stamina modeled along with TnB Stamina. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
as i see it the force a pilot can pull is allready in the game , why not let a full pull on the stick for x amount of time decrease a stamina "bar" or whatever and if used to often , or over a longer period of time the available "force" the pilot can apply decreases until he makes a pause in abusing his stick and recovers.
this would only hinder pilots to fly hard maneuvers to many times in a row.
This way trim would also be more usefull like in real live , as the trim aides the pilot and he would need less strenght to use the stick if trimemd right and therefor wouldnt get the above mentioned decrease in strenght so fast.
It would create another factor in combat and is fine by me, im all for it.
But it should not be overdone, as the stickforces in the game are probably the most speculative variable so far , only if a pilot really overdoes the stick yanking it should come to hard restrictions.

Bull_dog_
01-09-2005, 10:08 AM
I don't know how it would be done, but I do believe that something about real life manuevering does not translate well to the game...I really see it as I think about what I've read in terms of tactics and high speed vs low speed manuevering and cockpit design/yoke design on a pilots ability to manuever his plane.

In real life, I've read over and over that the Mustang, Lightning, Jug and Fw had excellent high speed characteristics and were light on the controls at high speeds relative to other aircraft like the Spitfire, Me-109, Zero, Hurricane etc... I've read and seen data that supports the arguement that the Mustang can out turn a Spitfire above certain speeds...yet in game, this does not translate. Snap rolls and other roll related manuevers seem to have been more effective in real life than in game...not certain why, but I am fairly certain that this exists....

So, if we could find a way to model fatigue...even if it meant there was a "ramp up" to manuever...this would be good. Trouble is with the sim where it is in its life, I doubt this would be done and I'm not sure how one would go about modelling it exactly.

Atomic_Marten
01-09-2005, 10:34 AM
No doubt that it would actually improve realism. No more insane 30 min. TnB.

Also what is even more silly, is the fact that you can pull out at any G that your a/c can endure without losing conscience.

S.taibanzai
01-09-2005, 12:29 PM
Yes that would be very good idea to put in the sim

ZG77_Lignite
01-09-2005, 02:02 PM
I agree completely, with the addition that it would be important for AI to 'suffer' the same effects as well.

Also: AI Morale, really really need AI morale.

Atomic_Marten
01-09-2005, 02:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ZG77_Lignite:
I agree completely, with the addition that it would be important for AI to 'suffer' the same effects as well.

Also: AI Morale, really really need AI morale. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes. If AI does not suffer from that also, offline would be in some cases nightmare. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

noshens
01-09-2005, 03:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Atomic_Marten:
Yes. If AI does not suffer from that also, offline would be in some cases nightmare. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

to fix this we could have it as an option

Fehler
01-09-2005, 06:31 PM
I cant remember the name of the flight sim that nicorporated this feature.. It was a Korean era game, like strike fighters or something. It was pretty cool.. you could pull low G's for a long period of time, but high G's caused fatigue faster and if you didnt rest the pilot, you could turn very little.

I have always thought this would be a great option for this sim...

LEXX_Luthor
01-09-2005, 07:14 PM
It can't work unless you also model the Fatigue created by other factors of flying WW2 aircraft. Then the Stamina idea would work well in a combat flight sim. Aviation Medicine is fascinating especially in combat aviation, and its sad nobody here wants to talk about it. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif


Atomic_Martin:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>No doubt that it would actually improve realism. No more insane 30 min. TnB. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
P~38 pilots reported lone "insane" Ki~43 pilot TnB for 30 minutes against their BnZ attacking P~38s. No report available on Ki~43 TnB Stamina given in these situations, but all the P~38 pilots reported running out of 50 Caliber Stamina and 20mm Stamina with the Ki~43 pilot still having the same externally evident TnB Stamina left over that he started with (if he didn't, they would have got him). The P~38 pilots and Ki~43 pilot all flew home.

In a fit of insanity, Saburo succesfully survived 30 minutes in a Zero while TnB against 16 attacking BnZ Hellcats, until the Hellcats lost all their Stamina--50 Caliber Stamina or Fuel Stamina we don't know as the story is told by Saburo. And, Saburo did it with one-eyed Stamina.

Now, if the idea of modeling TnB Stamina without modeling all types of Pilot Stamina is for internet BnZ Cheat to "balance" TnB Dots being invisible against the ground, then we understand. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

p1ngu666
01-09-2005, 07:46 PM
thats true, also high alt is uncomfortable, despite oxygen http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif, pressure change i guess

109 have pleasing effect of no rudder trim too http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
constant rudder pressure goodness http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

u could have snacks too, specialy for bomber crews http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

LEXX_Luthor
01-09-2005, 07:50 PM
Oxygen DUH I forgot all about that one http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif thanks pingu

p1ngu666
01-09-2005, 07:55 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
long periods of nothing may make crew sleepy too. bomber crews found that hardest thing, keep lookout for 8-10hours constantly, considerable mental stress

Fehler
01-09-2005, 08:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
It can't work unless you also model the Fatigue created by other factors of flying WW2 aircraft. Then the Stamina idea would work well in a combat flight sim. Aviation Medicine is fascinating especially in combat aviation, and its sad nobody here wants to talk about it. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif


Atomic_Martin:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>No doubt that it would actually improve realism. No more insane 30 min. TnB. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
P~38 pilots reported lone "insane" Ki~43 pilot TnB for 30 minutes against their BnZ attacking P~38s. No report available on Ki~43 TnB Stamina given in these situations, but all the P~38 pilots reported running out of 50 Caliber Stamina and 20mm Stamina with the Ki~43 pilot still having the same _externally evident_ TnB Stamina left over that he started with (if he didn't, they would have got him). The P~38 pilots and Ki~43 pilot all flew home.

In a fit of insanity, Saburo succesfully survived 30 minutes in a Zero while TnB against 16 attacking BnZ Hellcats, until the Hellcats lost all their Stamina--50 Caliber Stamina or Fuel Stamina we don't know as the story is told by Saburo. _And_, Saburo did it with one-eyed Stamina.

Now, if the idea of modeling TnB Stamina without modeling all types of Pilot Stamina is for internet BnZ Cheat to "balance" TnB Dots being invisible against the ground, then we understand. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We have been through this over and over Lexx...

Your statement holds no water. That would mean we cant have a combat sim without actually getting shot. Come to think of it, where are the bursting tires from hitting the ground too hard? Or the loss of manifold pressure for no reason? Or guns that jam in high speed maneuvers? Or... the list goes on and on.

The fact is, a human cannot pull the maneuvers we have in the game, over and over and over and over and over again without penalty.

Go grab a 20 pound weight and hold it in your hand for 10 minutes. See if you get tired. Then jump into your virtual plane and pull a 3 G maneuver.. you can do it forever. See the difference?

But then again, you wont see the difference because you wont allow yourself to understand this; just like you didnt the last time we had this discussion...

Fehler
01-09-2005, 08:19 PM
Oh, let me head off your next argument...

How do we determine which pilot is in better shape? All people are different!

OK, so how does the game simulate G forces now? Oh My God! All pilots are affected in the same manner! Well, this is.. nothing more than a computer simulation! I better throw it away, less I start believing that it is like real flying!

Fehler
01-09-2005, 08:22 PM
Fact is, the game is full of compromises. But some here think having "None" is better than a compromised "Feature."

I cringe when I say this next statement: It is sort of like the 6DOF thing... I can see a lot of validity to the discussion tagert was having over in the PF forum. My only question was could 6DOF be used to look around objects that would be there in real life, and give a TIR pilot an advantage over others without it?

Fatigue, modelled the same for everyone would give no unfair advantage.

LEXX_Luthor
01-09-2005, 08:27 PM
Yes, Wellcome Back Fehler. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

If you wish to talk about Aviation Medicine and its application to air combat we can. Thanks. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Or we may cover this from the beginning again...

If we read our books we learn that real life WW2 pilots got exhausted from flying tight aerobatic turns in dogfight, flying high speed in turbulent weather, flying straight and level in long flights, flying in Xtreme Hot and Cold cockpit temperatures, and pulling gees at high "BnZ" attack speeds.

All these fatigues lesson combat alertness and physical ability. Thanks for reading and responding.

p1ngu666
01-09-2005, 08:37 PM
keep same pilot for every plane, id bet we would have germans put forward micheal schumaker as there "normal" pilot, and say americans should have coach potato overweights, english have someone with bad teeth.

everyone would try to make theres better than others, i just cant think of other example ppl, got headache http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

theres more there than just stick pulling, for example u could be a gunner on a lanc, uve sat on ur **** for 8 hours, depending on various things, u might not have even got cold, but be sure your **** tired, elated/releaved too be home aswell

Fehler
01-09-2005, 08:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Yes, Wellcome Back Fehler. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

If you wish to talk about Aviation Medicine and its application to air combat we can. Thanks. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Or we may cover this from the beginning again...

If we read our books we learn that real life WW2 pilots got exhausted from flying tight aerobatic turns in dogfight, flying high speed in turbulent weather, flying straight and level in long flights, flying in Xtreme Hot and Cold cockpit temperatures, and pulling gees at high "BnZ" attack speeds.

All these fatigues lesson combat alertness and physical ability. Thanks for reading and responding. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Always a pleasure Lexx.. Although, I do miss the tele-tubbi avitar you used to have.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

p1ngu666
01-09-2005, 08:48 PM
wonder where he went http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

LEXX_Luthor
01-09-2005, 09:07 PM
who me? I visited georgeo's thread.

P~51 pilots had it hard too, sitting alone in cockpit for 4 hours with nobody to help them stay awake. Then the 109s came and they woke up, but had 4 more hours of flying to get home. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Just thinking, for the dogfight servers hosting P~51, Oleg should give the ability to force partial Blackout on the Pony pilots flying straight and level, but the Blackout goes away when they get Bounced by fresh Bf simmers, simulating return of alertness (but still somewhat tired) during the Combat Dogfight. And you are right, the Bf simmers should start losing Leg Stamina after takeoff. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Not just trying to be funny here Fehler, but nobody here except pingu wants to talk about Aviation Medicine applied to flight sims. It would be a fascinating discussion.

p1ngu666
01-09-2005, 09:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
who me? I visited georgeo's thread.

P~51 pilots had it hard too, sitting alone in cockpit for 4 hours with nobody to help them stay awake. Then the 109s came and they woke up, but had 4 more hours of flying to get home. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Just thinking, for the dogfight servers hosting P~51, Oleg should give the ability to force partial Blackout on the Pony pilots flying straight and level, but the Blackout goes away when they get Bounced by fresh Bf simmers, simulating return of alertness (but still somewhat tired) during the Combat Dogfight. And you are right, the Bf simmers should start losing Leg Stamina after takeoff. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Not just trying to be funny here Fehler, but nobody here except pingu wants to talk about Aviation Medicine applied to flight sims. It would be a fascinating discussion. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

the teletubbie i ment http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

yeah the field of view, and reactions could get smaller/slower...

also theres mental aspect, like when i flew with the 99th on a coop, and we are in a loose gaggle of p51/p47, felt really good cos your in this powerful group, also one that has history and is great pilots http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

also when u see the b17s, and panic when u dunno where u/they are (navigation very important irl).

on the flipside is photo recon pilots, who need a lonerish personality, flying alone mostly, also they can turn back when they want - its pointless to take the pics of target, if u dont make it back. i think 2/3rds of recon flights may have not been a success (also clouds etc)

also cockpit comfort, like corsair/p51 with the malcom hoods are far nicer tobe in, even in sim where we cant move our heads (irl u move head into the extra area the bluging gives u, and u can see more around the structure of the plane

LEXX_Luthor
01-09-2005, 10:18 PM
Eye fatigue, especially at high altitudes.

You see all the old pics of USA pilots wearing sunglasses, but when did that start becoming standard, and in what air forces? Was it a USA thing mostly?

Eye fatigue from too much light may be what is also called "Snow Blindness" in the outdoors backpacking culture, because white snow reflects so much bright sunlight into your eyes (I guess that's the theory). I think I got it once, eyes feel like they are burning on the inside, and when you go indoors your eyes cannot fully adjust to the darker environment, and you can almost see "fuzz" in your field of vision after you go indoors. Effects lasted about an hour or so. In my case, probably a rather mild case.

p1ngu666
01-09-2005, 10:45 PM
yeah thats true, also looking around constantly,and really searching would tire the eyes

triggerhappyfin
01-09-2005, 11:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Blackjack174:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
That seems reasonable, but...

Every gamer is a Hartmann. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif If we read our books we learn that real life WW2 pilots got exhausted from flying tight aerobatic turns in dogfight, flying high speed in turbulent weather, flying straight and level in long flights, flying in Xtreme Hot and Cold cockpit temperatures, and pulling any amount of stick movement at high "BnZ" attack speeds. We would need BnZ Stamina modeled along with TnB Stamina. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
as i see it the force a pilot can pull is allready in the game , why not let a full pull on the stick for x amount of time decrease a stamina "bar" or whatever and if used to often , or over a longer period of time the available "force" the pilot can apply decreases until he makes a pause in abusing his stick and recovers.
this would only hinder pilots to fly hard maneuvers to many times in a row.
This way trim would also be more usefull like in real live , as the trim aides the pilot and he would need less strenght to use the stick if trimemd right and therefor wouldnt get the above mentioned decrease in strenght so fast.
It would create another factor in combat and is fine by me, im all for it.
But it should not be overdone, as the stickforces in the game are probably the most speculative variable so far , only if a pilot really overdoes the stick yanking it should come to hard restrictions. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This was a practical and good solution on the matter. This is what should be done to adress this problem and really would ad to realism of the game play. As it is now it is quite ridiculous and unrealistic the whole dogfight thing. Also somekind of dynamical function to achieve more strength to the pilot would be nice. But with the same amount of strength to all pilots would let the pilot who was most aware of the fatigue part of turn fighting get the upper hand.

WWMaxGunz
01-10-2005, 12:20 AM
Funny... I mention the 50 pounds limit in another thread and get told I'm full of $#!+.
Must be because someone wants 109K to always be able to make 5G's at high speed since it
was done in a test at least once. Maybe Swartzenegger family member or similar, doesn't
matter when lobbying hard to have FM changed. Test and sim should have no difference.
Really though, I think that is how the P-51 elevator response got pushed to be and needs
to be cranked down.

Fatigue in turns isn't just pull on the stick but also G's on the pilot while pulling on
the stick, it makes the job harder with time in the turn. And for what G-forces will do
to a pilot, even what was ate before flying, if way too heavy supper the night before or
just too much or too little breakfast can ruin a day.

These things were discussed once before. It's good to see the community interest. Maybe
one future sim that becomes realism option.

WUAF_Badsight
01-10-2005, 12:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bull_dog_:
In real life, I've read over and over that the Mustang, . . . . . .had excellent high speed characteristics and were light on the controls at high speeds relative to other aircraft. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
the Mustang was a "true 2-hander" like the Bf109

Aaron_GT
01-10-2005, 01:34 AM
"Your statement holds no water. That would mean we cant have a combat sim without actually getting shot. Come to think of it, where are the bursting tires from hitting the ground too hard? Or the loss of manifold pressure for no reason? Or guns that jam in high speed maneuvers? Or... the list goes on and on."

Most of those would be good to have (apart from the getting shot for real part!). I'd also add that radio failures would be a good addition but with the prevalence of TeamSpeak and the like would only be workable for offline campaigns. Hopefully (and by the sound of it is going to be the case) random equipment failures will be modelled in BoB.

Aaron_GT
01-10-2005, 01:37 AM
"Just thinking, for the dogfight servers hosting P~51, Oleg should give the ability to force partial Blackout on the Pony pilots flying straight and level, but the Blackout goes away when they get Bounced by fresh Bf simmers, simulating return of alertness (but still somewhat tired) during the Combat Dogfight. And you are right, the Bf simmers should start losing Leg Stamina after takeoff. "

Maybe all long range escort missions online should be done on mid-mornings on a Saturday after the escort pilots have been up to 4am the night before to simulate this? :-)

But then there are a whole host of other factors. How do you simulate the raw fear of a first combat mission? Maybe we should have our bank accounts linked online. Get show down and there is a 10% chance your entire bank balance will be sucked out. It would certainly make me concentrate on making it back to base in one piece :-).

Blackdog5555
01-10-2005, 01:58 AM
It would be fun if you could could hear the p38 pilot bit*h about being freezing cold. the game models pilot injury...when you are bleeding you get the "Fade to Black" action..A fatique meter on the speed bar would be a fun option. Fly by wire takes from the realism. watchin the AI ZERO do 20 high speed rolls- to a snap roll to a sliceback then loop is also a bit, whats the word.?...Also the P38L had hydrolic assisted controls, the first US fighter I believe. (im pretty sure). Cheers.

CyC_AnD
01-10-2005, 04:48 AM
Waclaw Krol (polish pilot) was tired after few minutes avoiding 3 bf109 in his p11c. You think that G's has biggest factor, but dont forget that pulling stick is easier than pushing it to sides. Thats why he was exausted. He didnt do all the time 6G turns, he was doing evasive manouvers, barrels, scissors etc.

I know it will produce problems and more whinning, but could add more realism as well. For now I vote for limiting strenght for wounded pilots, which will force them to come back home (like structrural damage and pulling Gs would). I see all the time yaks with lots of holes, or bf or xxx (put whatever you want) pulling G's and having only bit more stall's but no wing braking on turns etc. Its to late for it in this sim, me thinks http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

p.s. as for eyes, etc. stamina, belive me, after few hours of online flying and looking for dots over ground, my eyes are tired, and my butt is as well http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

p1ngu666
01-10-2005, 09:11 AM
ya thats true, also rolls in fw190 at max rate would be rather uncomfortable i think

ku101-Shrike
01-10-2005, 09:41 AM
hows this for full realism, ... my force feedback stick was so strong that when i crash landed once, my FF stick shook so hard it broke my desk and the whole lot went crashing onto the floor! (yes it was a cheap 20 desk from Argos, dont buy them!)

also, if you want pilot with good stamina, try downloading the Michael Schumacher pilot skin from IL2skins.com

anarchy52
01-10-2005, 09:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CyC_AnD:
For now I vote for limiting strenght for wounded pilots, which will force them to come back home (like structrural damage and pulling Gs would). I see all the time yaks with lots of holes, or bf or xxx (put whatever you want) pulling G's and having only bit more stall's but no wing braking on turns etc. .

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That is already implemented in the sim

WWMaxGunz
01-10-2005, 03:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bull_dog_:
In real life, I've read over and over that the Mustang, . . . . . .had excellent high speed characteristics and were light on the controls at high speeds relative to other aircraft. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
the Mustang was a "true 2-hander" like the Bf109 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes and no. 2 hander for rookies and I present evidence -- read from here the whole thing.

http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/anderson/anderson.htm

He writes detail of something I believe that every experienced WWII fighter pilot knew and
did to some extent to reduce the workload of the stick controlling arm even during fights
as he states clearly there.

Also if the P-51 was so light over the whole range, there would never be any need for Bud
Anderson to do that. Light is noted as a relative term anyway, I don't see qualifiers of
how much lighter, etc.

WWMaxGunz
01-10-2005, 04:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
But then there are a whole host of other factors. How do you simulate the raw fear of a first combat mission? Maybe we should have our bank accounts linked online. Get show down and there is a 10% chance your entire bank balance will be sucked out. It would certainly make me concentrate on making it back to base in one piece :-). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well if you are flying online with people you know then you could all chip in to a kitty
that the survivors split afterwards. Instead of pay to play, it'd be pay to die.

Now if that could be run as a DF server option somehow with accounts set up... all legal
niceties aside say $2 to $10 per life and you get 1/2 per kill credit then it would maybe
pay to run a good server and certainly change the whole online equation. I guess that a
penny-ante server would be needed for newbies, in fact variable rates would quickly be a
business factor alone but IMHO the best action would be on the higher rate servers.

Then of course, the law would step in so don't even consider it!

LEXX_Luthor
01-10-2005, 05:33 PM
Awsum find Gunz... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Bud Anderson:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The Germans liked to roar through the bombers head-on, firing long bursts, and then roll and go down. They would circle around to get ahead of the bomber stream, groping for altitude, avoiding the escorts if possible, then reassemble and come through head-on again. When their fuel or ammunition was exhausted, they would land and refuel and take off again, flying mission after mission, for as long as there were bombers to shoot at.

~ http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/anderson/anderson.htm

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
We need this for the Re~Arm and Re~Fuel thread. Thanks. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

WWMaxGunz
01-10-2005, 09:35 PM
Okay but did you get the part about the trim wheels and where he was using them?
Right in the fight to take pressure off the stick. One hand on the stick, the
other doing throttle, trim, and everything else which he didn't say but the
gunsight range is adjustable, I believe. You don't want to need two hands on
the stick because then you can't do engine management either!

And sigh, landing and reloading/refueling is what you come back with? How
about just how tired those LW pilots would get? Major stress all around, those
guys on both sides really tore up on some nerves!

LEXX_Luthor
01-10-2005, 10:41 PM
Yep, saw that too. I got a little excited.

Also interesting is how Ki~43 pilots and Saburo in a Zero could do "insane" aerobatics for 30 minutes dodging BnZ attacks from many enemy planes coming from all directions.

FlakMagnent
01-10-2005, 11:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
It can't work unless you also model the Fatigue created by other factors of flying WW2 aircraft. Then the Stamina idea would work well in a combat flight sim. Aviation Medicine is fascinating especially in combat aviation, and its sad nobody here wants to talk about it. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif


Atomic_Martin:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>No doubt that it would actually improve realism. No more insane 30 min. TnB. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
P~38 pilots reported lone "insane" Ki~43 pilot TnB for 30 minutes against their BnZ attacking P~38s. No report available on Ki~43 TnB Stamina given in these situations, but all the P~38 pilots reported running out of 50 Caliber Stamina and 20mm Stamina with the Ki~43 pilot still having the same _externally evident_ TnB Stamina left over that he started with (if he didn't, they would have got him). The P~38 pilots and Ki~43 pilot all flew home.

In a fit of insanity, Saburo succesfully survived 30 minutes in a Zero while TnB against 16 attacking BnZ Hellcats, until the Hellcats lost all their Stamina--50 Caliber Stamina or Fuel Stamina we don't know as the story is told by Saburo. _And_, Saburo did it with one-eyed Stamina.

Now, if the idea of modeling TnB Stamina without modeling all types of Pilot Stamina is for internet BnZ Cheat to "balance" TnB Dots being invisible against the ground, then we understand. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We have been through this over and over Lexx...

Your statement holds no water. That would mean we cant have a combat sim without actually getting shot. Come to think of it, where are the bursting tires from hitting the ground too hard? Or the loss of manifold pressure for no reason? Or guns that jam in high speed maneuvers? Or... the list goes on and on.

The fact is, a human cannot pull the maneuvers we have in the game, over and over and over and over and over again without penalty.

Go grab a 20 pound weight and hold it in your hand for 10 minutes. See if you get tired. Then jump into your virtual plane and pull a 3 G maneuver.. you can do it forever. See the difference?

But then again, you wont see the difference because you wont allow yourself to understand this; just like you didnt the last time we had this discussion... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have an Idea about how this could be incorporated into the game. Simply use some sort of Character Development such as in an RPG game. You could build your character to what most fits yourself and put it in the game. It would be a virtual you so to speak. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif