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View Full Version : The sign of the cross effect (wobbling)



Antonios
10-28-2005, 03:31 AM
well I have even installed 3.03 over 4.02 and then 4.02 over the whole bunch but still no good.
It is impossible for me to fight properly, airplane keeps on yawing left-right in a slight manner when I pitch even as I am on a turn hard or not hard, low or high...
My stick is one of the best out there (CH Combastick+pro throttle+simped pedals) but after 4.02 I cannot control the plane the way it should be!
Tried every setting for the stick possible and every trick mentioned here!
I am at a loss!!!

TX-EcoDragon
10-28-2005, 04:37 AM
airplane keeps on yawing left-right in a slight manner when I pitch

Yes, patching again won't fix, that is the gyroscopic effects of the prop you are seeing. It should yaw right when you pull back and left when you push forward if in a clockwise engine rotation design and the opposite if the engine rotates counter clockwise. The yaw must be cancelled out with rudder inputs.

Jatro13th
10-28-2005, 04:45 AM
Yeah, have a look at that:

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63110913/m/7011002073

AH_Gonzo
10-28-2005, 06:21 AM
Please have a look at this thread. After installing 4.02 the aircraft wobbled around much, much more than would be expected on a Cessna with the gyroscopic forces of a Hurcules acting on it. Follow the instructions and you will see a marked and much more accurate gyroscopic effect.

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/5261079963/p/1

Te_Vigo
10-28-2005, 06:51 AM
Nah.....you're all incorrect!

It is because The Pope,(being in secret a very clever computer programmer) working for 1C incognito and unkown to 1C, saw in an ecclesiastical moment a chance to "bless" the sim and all flyers...........................

rr9
10-28-2005, 10:37 AM
just out of curiosity, a question to the original poster: Do you have any games installed that use Starforce copy protection? I thought I already fixed the wobbling/bobbing/whatever effect, but now after some Starforcing things are at least somewhat worse again. I really hope it has nothing to do with this.

Antonios
10-28-2005, 02:36 PM
I only have FB, MOH Pacific assault, Diablo II (one of my favourites) and America's Army...
Can you see any trouble coming out of these?

rr9
10-28-2005, 02:56 PM
I don't have any of those games and I have no idea if Starforce could somehow cause it. Hopefully not.

neural_dream
10-28-2005, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by rr9:
I don't have any of those games and I have no idea if Starforce could somehow cause it. Hopefully not.
What????????? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
Protos come over here and apologize for scaring the IL2 community with your Starforce scaremongering http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif.

Professor_06
10-28-2005, 09:25 PM
Nope nope nope. You are not experiencing Gyro. Gyro effect is not a wobble in horizontal plane. The wobbling in the Yaw is due to the Developer tying to reproduce Yaw instability, IMO. Now, and for example, when the P47D went to a bubble top, pilots complained of a loss of stability due to the turbulance of the bubble top. a fix was put in as you can see the fin Yaw stabilizers on the later models. In this game, Yaw wobble is the exagerated Yaw instability due to poor/incorrect input programming. Again IMO. What i do to eliminte it is too put all input settings at 100% and eliminate filtering. (no filtering). It has helped me a lot. Try it and let me know if it works on your setup. I use it on a twisty MSFF and/or a Cyborg with rudder pedals. Good luck.

Antonios
10-29-2005, 12:55 AM
I believe it is a bad patch having improvement of the series in mind...
I believe I have tried every stick setting possible but I will give it another try when I get back from work ...
Hope never dies!

rr9
10-29-2005, 03:14 AM
>Starforce scaremongering

Sorry for that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, just a wild guess. Some of this instability should probably be there. Reducing it may just take more input setting tweaking.

Antonios
10-29-2005, 04:55 AM
Fact is that I am not even behind a software firewall since I have a modem/router with a build in one...
And still no responce on the issue from the dev team...

TX-EcoDragon
10-29-2005, 07:22 PM
Originally posted by Professor_06:
Gyro effect is not a wobble in horizontal plane.

Well, I might not call it a wobble, but the gyroscopic action of the prop is observed as a response to pitch inputs in the form of yaw in the horizontal plane, the response to yaw inputs will be a vertical deviation. As the original question stated, he sees yaw when he makes a pitch change, not the general oscillation of the yaw axis. In any case, rapid, uncoordinated stick inputs will lead to an oscillation, the magnitude of the oscillations is not significant if coordinated control inputs are made. Additionally, the yaw stability of the FM hasn't changed much at all from 4.01 to 4.02, what changed in this respect is the addition of gyroscopic effects of the prop and a little more adverse yaw with aileron inputs, and this requires sim pilots to use the rudder a bit. Once again, if you pull back abruptly and fail to apply some left rudder in a clockwise rotation design you will yaw to the right and start to oscillate on the yaw axis, if you push forward the yaw deviation will be to the left. If you roll to the left without a little left rudder pressure you will yaw to the right. . . again, starting some oscillation of the yaw axis.

Buzzsaw-
10-30-2005, 03:53 PM
Salute TxEcoDragon

Maybe you can explain why it is that heavier aircraft, in particular the P-47, are the most affected by this, and that we see heavy oscillations and of greater amplitude?

This goes for both the razorback as well as the bubbletop. The Razorback historically had ZERO stability problems.

It would seem to me, that a larger, heavier aircraft, given stabilizer and wing size commensurate, should be more stable than a smaller lighter aircraft.

Historically, the P-47 was reported by its pilots to be an extremely stable aircraft, and was voted by a group of pilots as the best strafer of all the USAAF/USN aircraft of WWII. Gun tracking was reported as smooth and easy to correct.

Yet in the game, small corrections in the P-47 are met with much in the way of oscillation, and additionally, we find that the P-47 goes out of trim in a dive, more than almost any other aircraft.

Antonios
10-30-2005, 11:51 PM
EcoDragon you mean that for example Fw190 that all this time rolled to the left due to engine's torque, cannot be trimmed and one had to constant apply right rudder, especially at low to medium speeds, to maintain level flight and also apply corrections with right rudder when pulling up NOW all out of the blue and after many years of Sturmovi-ing this is the correct way for a WWII era plane to react to stick input?
I am very sceptic about this because now the planes react in a very strange way.
You can observe this especially in external view when in a break turn with absolutely gentle use of the controls. No matter what I use, rudder, bit of aileron or whatever the tail of the plane keeps on doing tiny left to right movements resulting in abrupt turns...
I cannot describe it any better than this...although I dove have and can make more tracks of it.

Krt_Bong
10-31-2005, 06:56 AM
I fly R/C and the only way I can get proper rudder control is to reduce its effectiveness by 40% having the top figure at only 60 instead of 100. only this way can I take off with rudder applied to counteract torque and not have the tail gyrate like a monkey

horseback
10-31-2005, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by Antonios:
EcoDragon you mean that for example Fw190 that all this time rolled to the left due to engine's torque, cannot be trimmed and one had to constant apply right rudder, especially at low to medium speeds, to maintain level flight and also apply corrections with right rudder when pulling up NOW all out of the blue and after many years of Sturmovi-ing this is the correct way for a WWII era plane to react to stick input?
I am very sceptic about this because now the planes react in a very strange way.
You can observe this especially in external view when in a break turn with absolutely gentle use of the controls. No matter what I use, rudder, bit of aileron or whatever the tail of the plane keeps on doing tiny left to right movements resulting in abrupt turns...
I cannot describe it any better than this...although I dove have and can make more tracks of it. If your rudder is twitching on you, it may be a matter of 'spiking' on your pedals' input. Try applying a bit of filtering to your yaw inputs, and making sure your yaw input sensitivities are graduated to some degree.

With the advent of 4.02m, I set my sensitivities much lower (0-6-13-20-29-39-50-62...) for all axes, and I find it's easier to avoid stalling and prevent my excessive caffeine consumption from spoiling my aim with these settings.

cheers

horseback

Grey_Mouser67
10-31-2005, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by Professor_06:
Nope nope nope. You are not experiencing Gyro. Gyro effect is not a wobble in horizontal plane. The wobbling in the Yaw is due to the Developer tying to reproduce Yaw instability, IMO. Now, and for example, when the P47D went to a bubble top, pilots complained of a loss of stability due to the turbulance of the bubble top. a fix was put in as you can see the fin Yaw stabilizers on the later models. In this game, Yaw wobble is the exagerated Yaw instability due to poor/incorrect input programming. Again IMO. What i do to eliminte it is too put all input settings at 100% and eliminate filtering. (no filtering). It has helped me a lot. Try it and let me know if it works on your setup. I use it on a twisty MSFF and/or a Cyborg with rudder pedals. Good luck.

IIRC and my sources are to be believed, the instability in Yaw that the P-47 Bubble Top suffered from was a very low speed affect. What would happend on landing if the pilot added too much power, the plane would yaw so much that full, opposite rudder would be needed to straighten it out...the razorback design such as is found in P-51B, Hellcats, Corsairs etc is much more stable at low speed.

The aggrevating thing is that the effect is overbaked and as airflow increases over the control surfaces, this effect should be greatly reduced...I'm just not seeing it and of course there are planes that are still steady as a rock.

In fact, I'm really having a hard time seeing what this 30mb patch changed other than an improved Fw DM, new map and AI behavior....slat aircraft are still antigravity machines, the same planes that wobbled in 4.01 still wobble and the others that didn't wobble don't now...the radiator bug is not fixed and the guns are still sync'd!

BTW...while going through the reinstallation process, I took the opportunity to fly the Jug in 1.0 and AEP...guess what...the guns were not sync'd! it had to be about 2.04 or PF that Oleg sync'd em...why would he do that?

GSNei
10-31-2005, 10:47 PM
I've been doing nothing for the last two weeks but altering stick settings trying to make the wobbling stop. Last night I was flying a Yak-3 and the slightest rudder input sent it swaying all over the place. I don't care what the physics are behind it or how "realistic" it is. If this is the way it,s going to be they can have it.

WWMaxGunz
10-31-2005, 11:18 PM
In some cases it's people who need to uninstall-defrag-reinstall and in some cases
it's people who never had a working gyroscope or spinning top or were unable to learn.
You apply force to a gyro on its spin axis, there will be another equal force at 90
degrees in the direction of the spin generated due to the spinning weight. Pitch the
nose up and it also goes to the side. Gyro is not just a force trying to roll the plane
opposite of the prop. And gyro doesn't include propwash or p-factor that have their own
effects.

TX-EcoDragon
11-01-2005, 02:16 AM
Originally posted by Antonios:
EcoDragon you mean that for example Fw190 that all this time rolled to the left due to engine's torque, cannot be trimmed and one had to constant apply right rudder, especially at low to medium speeds, to maintain level flight and also apply corrections with right rudder when pulling up

Yep. . .except in the 190 you'll need left rudder when pulling up abruptly. The only time this isn€t the case is in a correctly rigged aircraft flying level at it€s trim speed and power. Fly faster than that speed and the aircraft may tend to roll right, slower it may tend to roll left. Generally any time you are medium to low speed with higher power you will need lots of right rudder, accelerate faster than cruise trimmed speed and you will need lots of left rudder, pull back you will need a quick left pressure, roll left you need to press left. . . footwork is a full time job, and in any aircraft that lacks full axis trim you will be holding constant pressure on at least one axis more often than not.

Now, as far as the amount of oscillation, the abruptness of the oscillations, the minimal wathervaning tendency at higher speeds, and all of that, I€d agree it's too much. Despite that, a good hardware setup coupled with good technique seem more than adequate to prevent the oscillations from developing in the first place. Many of these effects should be minimized to greater extent at higher speeds than they currently are, but from what I can see, they are dealing with that since the release of 4.xx.

TX-EcoDragon
11-01-2005, 02:19 AM
Oh and, I've heard that some of the issues are in fact corrupted installs, I think it was TOAD that told me that some people have more than one space before or after their [rts_joystick] section of their conf.ini and that was causing some constant wobbing of the control surfaces.

Antonios
11-01-2005, 09:53 AM
could u be a bit more specific on that?

TX-EcoDragon
11-03-2005, 12:14 AM
Could you be a bit more specific on what you would like someone to be more specific about?

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Antonios
11-03-2005, 02:41 AM
For the "one space before or after their [rts_joystick] section " thing of course... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

TX-EcoDragon
11-03-2005, 12:01 PM
Oh, of course! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Well, in the con.ini file there is a section that looks something like this:

[rts_mouse]
SensitivityX=1.0
SensitivityY=1.0
Invert=0
SensitivityZ=1.0

[rts_joystick]
X=0 1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64 81 100 0
Y=0 1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64 81 100 0
Z=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100
RZ=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
FF=0
U=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
V=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
1X=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
1Y=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
1Z=0 40 50 60 75 93 100 100 100 100 100 0
1X1=0 70 80 90 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1Y1=0 70 80 90 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1RX1=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1RZ1=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1U1=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1V1=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0

[Render_DirectX]
TexQual=3
TexMipFilter=2



Apparently after patching some people had spaces arise in between the entries where there should only be a single space, which caused soem control issues. . .so theirs might look like this:

[rts_mouse]
SensitivityX=1.0
SensitivityY=1.0
Invert=0
SensitivityZ=1.0



[rts_joystick]
X=0 1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64 81 100 0
Y=0 1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64 81 100 0
Z=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100
RZ=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
FF=0
U=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
V=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
1X=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
1Y=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
1Z=0 40 50 60 75 93 100 100 100 100 100 0
1X1=0 70 80 90 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1Y1=0 70 80 90 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1RX1=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1RZ1=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1U1=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1V1=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0



[Render_DirectX]
TexQual=3
TexMipFilter=2

I have had no such problems, and I haven't added spaces to mine to verify, I'm just passing along what I've heard.

Buzzsaw-
11-03-2005, 12:35 PM
Salute TX Eco Dragon

You still haven't commented on whether or not you think the P-47 should be more affected by instability than other aircraft.

Please give your opinion on whether the P-47 should be modelled with a lot of instability and wobble, when the historical aircraft was known for being very stable as a gun platform.

OldMan____
11-03-2005, 06:31 PM
I am having very different problems.. aileron instant supre roll without any input. The plane simply rools up to 90 degrees (any side) much faster than I can do by putting all ailerons right or left. (really.. at blink of an eye the plane is sidesway... well most of time in fact it stop rolling before 90 degrees.. at about 45 to 60 degrees)


I can even unplug the stick (tested to prove it was not stick problems) and it still will do that. Go back to 4.01 and everything OK. Go to 4.02 everything bad again.


Su much probllems for a simple patch. It cannot be concidence. If i had to bet I would put money on a input system bug on PF code with 4.02.

OldMan____
11-03-2005, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by TX-EcoDragon:
Oh and, I've heard that some of the issues are in fact corrupted installs, I think it was TOAD that told me that some people have more than one space before or after their [rts_joystick] section of their conf.ini and that was causing some constant wobbing of the control surfaces.

Not possible since .ini files are read by a standard windows funciton that is not touched by patch neither any program (all codes that I saw in life read .ini this way). It automatically ignoers such stuff as it is a formal parser.

Professor_06
11-03-2005, 09:41 PM
Originally posted by Grey_Mouser67:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Professor_06:
Nope nope nope. You are not experiencing Gyro. Gyro effect is not a wobble in horizontal plane. The wobbling in the Yaw is due to the Developer tying to reproduce Yaw instability, IMO. Now, and for example, when the P47D went to a bubble top, pilots complained of a loss of stability due to the turbulance of the bubble top. a fix was put in as you can see the fin Yaw stabilizers on the later models. In this game, Yaw wobble is the exagerated Yaw instability due to poor/incorrect input programming. Again IMO. What i do to eliminte it is too put all input settings at 100% and eliminate filtering. (no filtering). It has helped me a lot. Try it and let me know if it works on your setup. I use it on a twisty MSFF and/or a Cyborg with rudder pedals. Good luck.

IIRC and my sources are to be believed, the instability in Yaw that the P-47 Bubble Top suffered from was a very low speed affect. What would happend on landing if the pilot added too much power, the plane would yaw so much that full, opposite rudder would be needed to straighten it out...the razorback design such as is found in P-51B, Hellcats, Corsairs etc is much more stable at low speed.

The aggrevating thing is that the effect is overbaked and as airflow increases over the control surfaces, this effect should be greatly reduced...I'm just not seeing it and of course there are planes that are still steady as a rock.

In fact, I'm really having a hard time seeing what this 30mb patch changed other than an improved Fw DM, new map and AI behavior....slat aircraft are still antigravity machines, the same planes that wobbled in 4.01 still wobble and the others that didn't wobble don't now...the radiator bug is not fixed and the guns are still sync'd!

BTW...while going through the reinstallation process, I took the opportunity to fly the Jug in 1.0 and AEP...guess what...the guns were not sync'd! it had to be about 2.04 or PF that Oleg sync'd em...why would he do that? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What I've read was that the Razor Back had low speed stability problems. I dont know what that means or was exactly. When the new bubble tops came out on the D models, some high speed instability started to develop you can see the fix in the "fillets" starting with (I think) the D24/5 model.
But yea, I agree, go fly the Frank. Zero wobble. Flys like it's on rails. Zero adverse Yaw.

Gun cam footage of P47 and P51 dont show any instability in the X or Y axis. LOL. Oleg is quoted as saying that Joystick input programming the most difficult part of this game. I think we are seeing evidence of his struggle in the P47. BTW, I have much less yaw problems while using rudder pedals intead of the twisty. Pity.

NonWonderDog
11-04-2005, 12:58 PM
Gun cam footage for aerial engagements is rarely filmed at 1x speed. It's sometimes as low as 1/4x speed.

Speed most of the gun camera footage I've seen up 2-4 times, and there appears to be quite a lot of difficulty involved in lining up shots.

WWMaxGunz
11-05-2005, 11:04 PM
Ahhhh, you got that backward NWD.

Filmed at highspeed. Played back at normal speed. Looks slow-motion.
They didn't want to miss anything.

Antonios
11-11-2005, 02:26 AM
Well after all these days, the measure I took to minimize the problem are the following:

A. Removed P4blabla.dll as someone wise had suggested
B. Cleaned the pots of my CH combatstick (!)

Now my input are much more realistic and aircraft is controllable again...
BUT notice that I did not have ANY sort of problems prior to installing 4.02 so there is *something* that this patch did to mine and others controllers. May this be oversensitive input or smthing else, I do not know.

Te_Vigo
11-12-2005, 04:35 PM
Tend to agree there with "something in this update" that makes things wobbly.

To minimise my wobbles (Intel and P4 system/ X52),
I took the advice on swapping the il2_core/ il2_coreP4. dlls around.
I only ever had one system crash though (pre 4.02m update)

This did the trick beautifully.
No more wobbles and the planes now behave as one thought they should (not being a RL flyer, it is hard to say how they should but....)


ps I went through the config. file and made sure there was only one space between the grouped entries and this made no difference pre dll swap.