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runyan99
05-19-2005, 08:12 PM
I just started my second career under v1.3 in Oct '40.

I was expecting an increase in the challenge-factor after my last career, which ran from Sep '39 to Jul '40 where I sunk 234,244 tons and quit.

I'm now running at 94% realism, using the weapons officer assistance only. When the historical average per patrol was 20,000 to 30,000 tons, I'm having no trouble at all scoring 60,000+ ton patrols.

Why?

I look at two things:

1) Too much deck gun use.

If I am lucky to get clear weather I can rack up huge patrol totals in no time. Historically, commanders almost never used the gun, and often only used it to sink a vessel already damaged by a torpedo. So, this seems to be a huge advantage I have over the historical commanders (and the totals listed on the Aces screen). Maybe there needs to be less ability to use the deck gun in the campaign, or I'm going to have to make up my own 'house rules' to restrict it's use.

2) Too much contact information.

Why am I getting reports on single vessels? I seem to know when every enemy ship enters my grid square, even in areas far beyond German aircraft patrol range. I understand convoy reports, but I don't think commanders got this kind of information on individual ships. As I understand it, they pretty much had to stumble into them. So, this is another big advantage for me. Again, maybe the individual contact info should be greatly curtailed or shut off. And, is there a way to do this myself, without losing the contact info for convoys?

BTW - hope to see other U-boats in a future patch or expansion soon. The more I play and read, the more glaring an omission this becomes. Particularly in '41 '42, where it seems common to have 6-12 U-boats in position to attack some convoys. NEVER seeing another boat isn't realistic at all.

Charlie901
05-19-2005, 08:23 PM
AGREE 100%

It really gets old fast when you start doubling the historical numbers from the other U-Boat Aces.

And the fact that I'm out of torpedoes, looooong before I ever see a convoy, thanks to all those single merchants.

gabriel_cd
05-19-2005, 08:37 PM
I guess a realism option to toggle realistic contact reports may be needed. I guess it is the way it is to make sure most people don't get bored with nothing to do.

mike_espo
05-19-2005, 09:09 PM
Why does Ubi do it? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif Same deal with IL2 FB and PF. Its always too easy...I can see if some want to see alot of sinkings, but when full real settings are on, historical results should be seen.

By seeing some of the posts, I can see that this sim is way too easy.

eltea
05-19-2005, 09:13 PM
There's a balance to be made here though. Make it too hard, even if you can customize the realism options, and you'll intimidate players new to the genre (such as myself). It has been noted that in a few reviews (the subsim one in particular) that the deck gun is far too powerful and that the sub doesn't take nearly enough damage.

However, I have to say I sympathize. Have you thought about doing your own plots? That alone would up the challenge significantly. Alternatively, you can "tie your own hands" and simply not use the deck gun. Do both, and you may have a challenge once more http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

runyan99
05-19-2005, 10:08 PM
I just edited my contacts.cfg file to read

Display Range To Opportunity Radio Contacts=2000
Display Range To Important Radio Contacts=2000
Single Contact Min Size=2

So, I think that will pretty much shut off the single contacts, and increase the convoy reports by 500km.

I think I'll have to restrict my own deck gun usage. Maybe only against vessels less than 1000 tons (trawlers and fishing boats?) and damaged vessels dead in the water.

Maybe now my results will have to be closer to reality. I might start over again tonight....

U-49
05-19-2005, 10:09 PM
Some good points, eltea.

While the sim can seem too easy, with the right mix of game settings and some self-discipline exercised with how you play (i.e.: limited deck gun useage, etc), you can definitely make the experience more challenging and rewarding. It really is up to the individual player and how they choose to play.

CannonFodda_99
05-19-2005, 10:39 PM
Must also remember that in real life, war is dangerous, you might die!. Seeing as you yourself probably wont die playing this game, you will take risks you wouldnt take were it real. This would result in more tonnage IMO.

Cannon

alanschu
05-19-2005, 10:41 PM
Agreed.

I'd never consider duking it out with a destroyer if I knew I could just get away by diving.

runyan99
05-19-2005, 10:45 PM
Some may take risks a real commander wouldn't. That really isn't my style, and I haven't seen the death screen yet.

As for the config file, I'm not sure if convoys are opportunity contacts, or important contacts. I'm going to do some testing.

alanschu
05-19-2005, 10:51 PM
I'd recommend going full real. The targetting solution becomes key to everything then. Since the Weapons Officer is capable of making precise estimations in an instant, it probably makes things much easier than real life.

Turn it off and find the solution yourself. I bet you'll find yourself getting lower tonnage immediately.

TedHealy
05-19-2005, 10:51 PM
Get the Campaign_RND2020.zip file from http://u-boot.realsimulation.com/ in the mods section. It is Pentallion's 20/20 mod for patch 1.3. It will reduce single ships and the chance they are reported.

Also start a career in 41 or 42. 40 wasn't known as happy times for nothng. Late in 42, things get a bit tougher and you have to take the threat of DDs seriously.

Deckgun rule I use: Don't use the deckgun other than to finish off already torpedoed targets.

I've had pretty good results so far weighing in with a little over 100k tons in a 10 patrol career from april 41 to january 43. Not too high, but still enough ships sunk to keep things fun.

eltea
05-19-2005, 11:46 PM
Wow, some great ideas there. I like the ability to reduce single contacts but up convoys. That would be more interesting IMO.

I have started to get good enough that I'm seeing ridiculous sinking tonnages...mostly due to the deck gun. I may restrict it myself to the <1000T rule/severly damaged vessels. I'm still not too keen on manual plotting, but I can see myself doing it one day yet.

You know, if the seas were a little more representative of the Atlantic, you'd sure see totals drop as you'd almost never be able to use the deck gun. I tried to attack a convoy tonight in a large swell and couldn't even keep them in my sights while submerged...I had to surface and wound up missing two torps. I had three hit a single C2, but because the swell caused an impact hit instead of magnetic det, it didn't sink and I was all out http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Still having a blast!

runyan99
05-19-2005, 11:49 PM
Back from testing.

Convoys are opportunity targets. So, I'm going to change my settings to:

Display Range To Opportunity Radio Contacts=2000
Display Range To Important Radio Contacts=5000
Decay Time For Important Radio Contacts=0

So, I'll get convoy reports but not exact locations, and individual contacts will not appear.

I don't want to reduce the number of individual ships, but just my chance to find them.

Time to start a new career. Going to follow the deck gun rules I posted above. Only for small fry and dead ducks.

I don't really want to do the torpedo calcs, as some have suggested. I'm already doing the navigator's job by plotting target course and position, AND the hydrophone man's job about half the time. I don't need the exec's job too. Besides, I just don't know how that TDC works....

Pentallion
05-20-2005, 12:32 AM
Runyan, leave the contacts file alone. Download my mod that was posted above. Then you won't be getting so many contact reports in the first place and can still get your convoys reported to you as they should be.

BTW, you've set your contact reports to Two Thousand km. not 2 km. That's Km not meters for that setting.

irreg77
05-20-2005, 12:40 AM
I am on my 14th patrol and 2nd career and average 15 to 20000 tons of shipping per patrol.
I leave escorts alone as I'm not the only one on my U-boat, I've got 51 men to look after too.
Most of my sinkings have been single ships too but these should be rarer from '41 onwards in the Atlantic at least. I'm tracking my 2nd convoy,keeping at a distance whilst moving parallel with it and getting myself in position to eventually attack from ahead and hopefully at the right angle! This will be a long process if I do it right (maybe more than 4 real time hours as I won't tc with escorts around).

Tomus
05-20-2005, 01:32 AM
I found I was getting huge scores as well, but then I started to impose self discipline, and I cut down on save/reload gameplay I only save the game now for breaks and or in case there is some sort of crash not like I was before just before I enter combat.

Also I have yet to be killed but I am determined dead is dead. And the last thing is the external camera which is a real super cheaty way of playing. Eliminating these things I have found patrol scores have gone down and tension has gone up. Its a better experience.

runyan99
05-20-2005, 01:52 AM
BTW, you've set your contact reports to Two Thousand km. not 2 km. That's Km not meters for that setting.

Really? I'm not sure you're right about that. The default was 300.... I dunno, maybe that was 300km.

Anyway, I'm getting plently of convoy reports now. None are too far away, really.

Really enjoying my patrol under the current settings. If you want to follow along, I've decided to post it all, out of self-importance, or just for fun. See the U-73 log post. Already having a much tougher time finding targets! Yay!

BTW - I don't do any saving and reloading. Dead is dead for me. I want to see how long I can live, acting rationally.

Trydan
05-20-2005, 04:11 AM
I concur... It's mid 1940, and I'm doing far too well in this game (I'm using 100% realism, no reloads, dead-is-dead). I like the idea of reducing the number of contacts reported. Thanks for the tip-off regarding the mod.

Deerslayer2005
05-20-2005, 04:31 AM
You may want to consider the Real U-Boat mod that cuts down considerably the number of single merchants and other goodies.

T.Rex
05-20-2005, 04:50 AM
Why go unrealistic in the name of realism? I mean restricted deck gun usage. Some captains used it extensively. And IMHO it is not too powerful (russian tank-killer was 45 mm). One should be abble to blow up DD with well placed single round (1:1000000 shot). It is too stable tough.

What I see:
1. Too few contact reports! Yes! Luftwaffe raids should spawn myriads of contacts in Nordsee, Channel and Bisquay. But these, we have, are far too accurate. Reports about ships in fog (radio intercepts) shouldn't have course information at all (except convoys).
2. Too large coastal ships. May be it is made up with making tankers too small?
3. Damage model. You can dogfight a DD! Not talking about raming. So you can take more risks.
4. Stupid merchant AI
5. May be most important, but totally overlooked. Long and fast transits are possible at highest seas.
6. No system failures.
7. Your life isn't in stake.

runyan99
05-20-2005, 04:58 AM
Originally posted by T.Rex:
Why go unrealistic in the name of realism? I mean restricted deck gun usage. Some captains used it extensively.

Go ahead and name a captain who used it extensively. I'll check it against my sources.

zzzspace
05-20-2005, 05:07 AM
Originally posted by CannonFodda_99:
Must also remember that in real life, war is dangerous, you might die!. Seeing as you yourself probably wont die playing this game, you will take risks you wouldnt take were it real. This would result in more tonnage IMO.

Cannon

Yes, a decent military grade simulator would do the same thing if you spent a great deal of time on it, giving you the opportunity to sharpen tactics without getting a hair out of place, let alone killed and scared to death.

Of course, the thread starter's points are valid though, but continually fighting plus tactical familiarisation within any simulation makes you much better at beating it more often.

If it were realistic there would be a lot of drowned SHIII customers.

mbabbs
05-20-2005, 05:10 AM
The trouble is that playing a game is not realistic.

We have no fear of dying, we don't seasick, we don't have to continue when we are tired, we don't get wet and cold, most of us are hygenic and eat reasonable food. Some of us even have girlfriends\wives to bring us cups of tea.

We also try to do gamey things, like sink a transport with 1 torpedo instead of launching four in a fan shot to guarantee a kill. Or hunting in fog etc

Personally I think the only way to obtain 'realistic' tonnage is to have some house rules. Mine are

1: Always begin evasive maneouvers immediately when detected.

2: Never hunt down single Merchant contacts. If you bump into them en-route then fair enough, but otherwise ignore. (I use the 20% mod too)

3: Nothing bold. ie Hunting in fog runs a good risk of death.

4: Go for a good chance of a kill or don't go at all (unless there aren't enough torpedoes). In other words launching fan shots.

5: Never target destroyers in a convoy with the aim of then surfacing and destroying the convoy - It just wasn't a real tactic.

6: When you're dead then you're dead. Delete the campaign and start again.

7: No saving the game before an attack and then reloading it cause you missed and sinking that cruise liner would have been just sooooo cool.



Having said all that it is a game and playing 'realistically' is quite rightly not everyone's Wiener Schnitzel. Its up to you how you play.

Wassergott
05-20-2005, 05:27 AM
1: Always begin evasive maneouvers immediately when detected.

2: Never hunt down single Merchant contacts. If you bump into them en-route then fair enough, but otherwise ignore. (I use the 20% mod too)

3: Nothing bold. ie Hunting in fog runs a good risk of death.

4: Go for a good chance of a kill or don't go at all (unless there aren't enough torpedoes). In other words launching fan shots.

5: Never target destroyers in a convoy with the aim of then surfacing and destroying the convoy - It just wasn't a real tactic.

6: When you're dead then you're dead. Delete the campaign and start again.

7: No saving the game before an attack and then reloading it cause you missed and sinking that cruise liner would have been just sooooo cool.

That's a cool Feature-List of ver. 1.1 for "SH3-Players". http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

T.Rex
05-20-2005, 05:30 AM
Originally posted by runyan99:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by T.Rex:
Why go unrealistic in the name of realism? I mean restricted deck gun usage. Some captains used it extensively.

Go ahead and name a captain who used it extensively. I'll check it against my sources. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Reinhard Hardegen

bertgang
05-20-2005, 06:57 AM
Originally posted by T.Rex:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by runyan99:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by T.Rex:
Why go unrealistic in the name of realism? I mean restricted deck gun usage. Some captains used it extensively.

Go ahead and name a captain who used it extensively. I'll check it against my sources. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Reinhard Hardegen </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Even so, he sunk no more than 26 ships during two years of active service; about 150.000 tons, not counting an auxiliary warship damaged.

Someone never used deck gun, fearing to be ambushed by Q-ships.

Some attempts were totally ineffective for lot of reasons: crippled targets not sinking, guns soon jammed or exploded, unexpected aircrafts...

T.Rex
05-20-2005, 08:16 AM
Originally posted by Bertgang:

Even so, he sunk no more than 26 ships during two years of active service; about 150.000 tons, not counting an auxiliary warship damaged.
20 of these during 2 patrols.

Someone never used deck gun, fearing to be ambushed by Q-ships.
So, we should have this fear too? But nothing happens and this is not fault of "too powerful deck gun".

Some attempts were totally ineffective for lot of reasons: crippled targets not sinking, guns soon jammed or exploded, unexpected aircrafts...
For stationary targets even explosives were used. Something we totally lack. Main reason of gun explosions was failure of removal of water-tight barrel cap. With well trained gun crew I think, this can not happen. Aircrafts. Yes. But for some reason they do not come. And using of deck gun after Atlantic cap was closed, no way!

So IMHO while deck gun wasn't weapon of too high popularity, we shouldn't restrict its usage simply because of that, but for reasons, it was unpopular. Give us these reasons, devs!

bertgang
05-20-2005, 09:24 AM
Speaking of Hardegen's career, 20 ships sunk during two patrols also means; over one year spent at sea sinking 6 ships only; just a bit more than 1 ship each month as overall statistics.
As it seems, out of the two outstanding patrols, he made little use of any kind of weapon: why? I really don't know.

Play as you like, dear friend, but the only way to keep reasonable battle results when playing, now, are self restrictions.
What I said gives some realistic reason to justify this choice, out of what happens in SHIII, until devs won't give that as a feature.

T.Rex
05-20-2005, 10:10 AM
Sank his first ship on his first patrol in U-147(Type IID) March 1941.
On his first patrol with U-123 in summer 1941 in West African waters, Hardegen sank five ships for a total of 21,507 tons.
In October 1941 he torpedoed the British auxiliary cruiser HMS Aurania
In January and March 1942 were patrols, mentioned earlier.
After that he didn't go to see anymore.
So, just 5 patrols and 235 days at sea.

I admit, that self imposed restrictions will give realistic final results. But they do so with other way. What we should do? Follow BdU orders. What is result? We get punished! If we want to be realistic, free hunt should be restricted. This can't be restricted with schimpanze sitting in BdU HQ.

Zinger98
05-20-2005, 11:14 AM
Maybe I'm just not that good at the game, but between the weather and running into contacts, I rarely get to use my deck gun. Since I'm still learning the game, I have the reality at 51%... moving it up slowly as I master more of the game.

My best patrol to date was 38000 tons. I'm running v1.3.

I use the deck gun every chance I get so I can save torpedoes for the convoys.

My beef is that you can't use the deck gun when the winds are over 5 kts... that's just plain silly.

Pr0metheus 1962
05-20-2005, 12:07 PM
The simple fact is that deck gun accuracy is incorrectly modelled in the game. It is possible to get around ten times more deck gun tonnage than was possible in real life, and that's WITH the deck gun heavy sea usage limitation.

The deck gun sight should pitch and roll with the ship, yet it doesn't. It should be hard to hit anything except slow-moving or stationary targets, yet Ican hit a destroyer's gun with it while I'm travelling at flank speed and turning in the tightest circle possible, and while the destroyer is doing the same. It's ridiculous.

Anyone who argues that the deck gun should be able to do this is the kind of person who would be quite content to play a historical simulation that was pure fantasy. That's what the deck gun in this game is - pure fantasy. It's a joke.

I only use the deck gun on unmoving targets - ones that have taken a torpedo and are dead in the water. That's realistic deck gun use.

JustinianNova
05-20-2005, 12:17 PM
The way to go if you're doing "too well" is full manual plotting (no weapons officer) and no reloads, dead is dead.

Trydan: You don't know if you're doing far too well yet. You're still in the Happy Time. Make it through 1943 and then we'll see! A blink monkey could sink all those unescorted fat merchies in 1940.

JustinianNova
05-20-2005, 12:25 PM
Ah, Beeryus is also correct; the main culprit is the deck gun. If you want to be more accurate, only use the deck gun in perfect weather and only when you're travelling in a straight line at very slow speeds. Even that isn't very realistic, but this should be fun after all.

The real solution is to reduce the accuracy of the deck gun by making the sights pitch and roll, and making them pitch and roll even more if you're moving fast or turning. When it takes 50 shots to kill a merchie instead of 10-20 you'll see the tonnage go way down.

OgreB
05-20-2005, 12:46 PM
I was on my 10th patrol before I realized my new sub even had a deck gun ( started Wilhelmshaven 39' with that tiny 3 tube boat)

I just never pay attention to it...I found the deck gun too easy in the academy part..I was nailing ships at 4000+ .

I just never use it...I'm too busy figuring out how to sink them with torpedos ( which is why I bought the game...not sink ships with guns..but how to figure postion and being the sneaky little bastage I am...shoot them when they are not looking)

just don't use it...unless it's for the coup de'grace...

Da11en47
05-20-2005, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by runyan99:
I just edited my contacts.cfg file to read

Display Range To Opportunity Radio Contacts=2000
Display Range To Important Radio Contacts=2000
Single Contact Min Size=2

What do these do exactly?

runyan99
05-20-2005, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by Da11en47:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by runyan99:
I just edited my contacts.cfg file to read

Display Range To Opportunity Radio Contacts=2000
Display Range To Important Radio Contacts=2000
Single Contact Min Size=2

What do these do exactly? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


These control how far away you get those convoy and single ship contacts on the map. I think Important Radio Contacts are friendly warships and maybe enemy warship groups.

The numbers are in km, so maybe I should knock them down a bit. I originally thought it was meters.

I wouldn't touch the Single Contact Min Size= feature. I think this just tells the program what a small medim and large convoy is. I set this back to 1. I was playing with it to try to remove the single contacts...

Da11en47
05-20-2005, 02:22 PM
How do you change these? WHat file?

Charlie901
05-20-2005, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by Beeryus:
The simple fact is that deck gun accuracy is incorrectly modelled in the game. It is possible to get around ten times more deck gun tonnage than was possible in real life, and that's WITH the deck gun heavy sea usage limitation.

The deck gun sight should pitch and roll with the ship, yet it doesn't. It should be hard to hit anything except slow-moving or stationary targets, yet Ican hit a destroyer's gun with it while I'm travelling at flank speed and turning in the tightest circle possible, and while the destroyer is doing the same. It's ridiculous.

Anyone who argues that the deck gun should be able to do this is the kind of person who would be quite content to play a historical simulation that was pure fantasy. That's what the deck gun in this game is - pure fantasy. It's a joke.

I only use the deck gun on unmoving targets - ones that have taken a torpedo and are dead in the water. That's realistic deck gun use.


I agree!

The deck gun needs to pitch and roll with the sub so that you have to be stationary to use it effectively.

This alone would make it useless for targeting the guns on an incomming destroyer.

Also we should not be getting radio reports of any other ships or convoys, NO MATTER WHAT, when submerged.

Add the increase of the leathalness/accuracy of anti-sub A/C, to make crusing on the surface in daylight, waiting for radio reports of ship sightings, more dangerous. Do this and you got yourself a much more realistic and challenging game.

These three things alone would really improve this game, IMHO.

runyan99
05-20-2005, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by Da11en47:
How do you change these? What file?

Contacts.cfg in the data file.

T.Rex
05-20-2005, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by Charlie901:

Add the increase of the leathalness/accuracy of anti-sub A/C, to make crusing on the surface in daylight, waiting for radio reports of ship sightings, more dangerous. Do this and you got yourself a much more realistic and challenging game.

Droping bomb on sub is not an easy task. It is simple only, when coming in in direction of subs movement. But in this case AC can't drop bombs, cause even Steawie Wonder would shoot it down (AC is stationary for at least 3 sec). So accuracy is IMHO quite realistic. Lethality is not. But in this we are back with Tiger Tank Damage Model(R)
But making these AC, we have, more accurate and more lethal, kills the sim. They come in with hypersonic speed (something like M3), have vectored thrust and afterburners, which sometimes more than makes up for their weaknesses.

Maj_Solo
05-20-2005, 04:57 PM
Only use the deck gun if the sea is like a mirror then ....

Cragger
05-20-2005, 05:10 PM
Actually if you want historical accuracy with the deck gun only allow your crew to man it and designate targets. The AI is far less accurate with it than you are, the actual first person use of the deck gun is way way to accurate and stabilized.

Pentallion
05-20-2005, 05:29 PM
Seems like we've been down this road before. People adjusting their contact.cfg files so they cannot see all the contacts they are getting. Then they find out they are going to lose their reports on convoy positions too. Then they reduce their decay time.

In the end, by altering the number of lone merchants and the probability that they even make a report in the first place, the need for messing with the contact.cfg goes away and you can just get your convoys reported correctly while hardly ever getting a lone merchant reported to you.

That's what the 20/20 mod does.

Pr0metheus 1962
05-20-2005, 06:21 PM
Originally posted by T.Rex:
making these AC, we have, more accurate and more lethal, kills the sim. They come in with hypersonic speed (something like M3), have vectored thrust and afterburners, which sometimes more than makes up for their weaknesses.

Well, the fact is, aircraft got half of all sub kills in reality. In the game they get far less than destroyers do. In my view destroyer lethality already kills the game because it's impossible to survive a career in 1943-45 with the uber sonar and uber depth charges. Late-war destroyers need to be reduced in lethality to reasonable levels, while aircraft need to be strengthened. Deck and AA guns also need fixing - it's far too easy to shoot down planes because these guns are too accurate.