PDA

View Full Version : These damage models require urgent attention...



hi_stik
01-08-2007, 09:08 AM
Dear Sirs,

It has come to my attention that 2 aircraft that have been added in the 1946 Addition require your immediate response:

The Ki-27 "Nate" is darn near impossible to set aflame, or de-wing, and is practically near-immune to catastrophic damage. It certainly is more immune to battle damage than the Ki-43 "Oscar", which seems to be realistically modeled as yet.

The N1K2 "George" also displays a marked propensity to stay alive and intact, though slightly less so.

In both cases, these aircraft should display a healthy desire to catch fire like their fellow IJAAF and IJNAF stablemates. It certainly ruins the immersion factor when you must unload all of your ammunition to bring down 1 Nate...

XyZspineZyX
01-08-2007, 10:26 AM
Well, I've been doing an AVG campaign, so I've seen a lot of Ki-27s in the past few weeks http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I'm also using planes with 2 .50s and 4 .30s

At first, I thought, well, Nate's a small target. I'm not getting a good concentration of fire on it.

Then, I set a couple on fire, and sawed off a wing with gunfire. Good, I thought, it was just me

Well, I've playtested about 35 missions so far, and probably 20 of them feature the Ki-27, some en masse. So probably, 150 or so times total have I shot at Ki-27s

I know I'm hitting; I can see clouds of debris

In those 150 or so encounters, I have seen 3 fires, and one lost wing, from my gunnery and from the AI

The Ki-27 fuel tanks should be in three places- wing roots, and in front of the pilot, as far as I know

Setting the main tank on fire from behind might be hard, OK, gotcha. What about the wing tanks? Haven't seen one ablaze yet seems to me, whether I'm shooting, or it's the AI shooting

Also, I haven't noticed them losing controls much. In such an un-armored plane, loss of control might be expected after some hits

Conversely, my H81A-2 catches fire nicely and loses control about how I'd expect after sustaining some damage

Don't know if this is a DM bug or not; I do know that the Ki-27 was not noted for it's robust resistance to battle damage, or for it's reluctance to catch fire (I did blow one up, though). I know they are not the aeronuatical equivelant of toilet paper sokaed in gasoline, but there would seem to be a large difference between some of what I'm seeing, and the good old "don't beleive all those old reports of fire=prone Nates". There's got to be the ttruth somepalce in the middle; seems to me we are way over on one side<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/Chuck_Older/clarkchampion.jpg
Flower of Scotland, will we see your like again?

hi_stik
01-08-2007, 10:37 AM
Yesterday, on the Zekes vs. Wildcats server, the new "Burma" map (which is super-awesome, by the way), time and time again the red team would engage Ki-27's, and scarcely a one would catch fire (I personally did not see a single one). In one instance, some guy had decided to come attack the red airbase, and he appeared to run out of ammo, so he ran north for home. 4 of us, in Hawk 81's (2x.50 nose guns, 4x.30 wing guns, a decent gun loadout for Nate killin') and 1 I-153 (no idea what the guns are, don't care for Russian birds, but still, it's more guns) repeatedly struck this lone Ki-27 in our passes...

No fires, no catastrophic damage, I think eventually he went down because the wings were holed up so much it was aerodynamically ruined...

This should not happen. Ki-43's, A6M's, Ki-84's, and to a lesser extent, Ki-61's, all catch fire at a reasonable rate...

Ki-27's and N1K2's (and also D3A1 "Vals", another fireproof Japanese plane, but I digress...) seem ALMOST immune to this...

I understand that after numerous engagements, there would be SOME of these that would end in fire, but the ratio seems absurdly low.

F19_Ob
01-08-2007, 01:39 PM
Ki-27 do burn. I have flamed quite many when practising in quick-combat, aswell as sitting in burning one's online at Zeke's AVG-map.
It doesn't burn so easily though, as ki-43 and Zero, wich can catch fire with a single 1 sec burst with the two pea-shooters of the ki-27, wich seem less realistic aswell.

Damage, external and internal in ki-27 is quite like the ki-43 although ki-27 have more defined damage-textures, wich can be revealed with fifty caliber's although the ki-43 is very much weaker than ki-27, and loses tail and tailparts sooner.
The ki-27 should ofcourse be atleast as weak as ki-43.
Even hellcat loses it tail more easily, but the ki-27 instead tend to explode more than losing tail-parts.

So infact better damage-balanced than most planes in the sim, but like many other planes the damage textures should show sooner , because one can be very damaged but with little or no damage showing on the skin.

ki-27 should burn a'LITTLE' easier if the easy burning of zero and ki-43 is correct and norm.


-------------------------------------------


The N1K2 "George" also can be set on fire but is harder than the ki-27 and it tend to lose it's tail before catching fire, and that can be one explanation why people feel it doesn't burn.
I don't know how its internal damage is though.

well what I got.

XyZspineZyX
01-08-2007, 04:17 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
So what you're saying is that the placebo damage overlay mapping needs to be shown sooner, so that we "feel" we're doing more damage

Come on now, Ob. Neither stik nor I are newbies http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif Disagree, but don't suggest the 'feel good' damage layer will make us feel like we're making progress<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/Chuck_Older/clarkchampion.jpg
Flower of Scotland, will we see your like again?

ElAurens
01-08-2007, 04:55 PM
The N1K2 had self sealing tanks.

Anyone know the real world VnE of the Ki27? At what speed did they shed wings in particular?

Only been up a little of late so cannot add more. Darn real life conspiring against my flying again.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

_____________________________

http://www.blitzpigs.com/photos/ELsKi.jpg

"To explain the lure of speed you would have to explain human nature" - T.E. Lawrence

woobin
01-08-2007, 07:35 PM
Hi all damage models are funny.
Use the kamakasi or taran to test strength.

I collided once and another time rammed a I-153 in a ki27 and both times lost a wing with " no" external damage to the I-153 ( the bastaXX didnt drop: too tough?). It would be good if we could find the figures
input into the game.

PS: When bullets fail ram.

cheers<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/7383/borisbatinov4oi.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

DustyBarrels77
01-08-2007, 07:36 PM
I dont know if it is a problem with .303s and .50 caliber machine guns in game or not, but in 4.071 using 225 convergence and firing 1.8 2.0 range just about all aircraft are taking more then 200-400 hits using the gunstat counter. But cannon will kill in 2-5 strikes, Then russian and hispano cannon seem like 6-12+ strikes even when having 4 of them on the wing. then the russian and japanese machine guns only can kill accurate 5.0 6.0 out in 20-40 strikes. But offline they seem very strong. Maybe something changed in the netcode different that is showing strikes and counting them with gunstat as hit are really misses? It just seems no fun at all using any ac with 4 6 8 or 12 mgs, but the 2 nose mounted mgs of many ac seem more powerful, it does not make no sense to me and when I show people tracks they all immediatly call me a allied whiner.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:M98REgPM-RPbEM:http://www.me-air-company.de/crash_gross/005.jpg

F19_Ob
01-09-2007, 03:22 AM
Originally posted by BBB462cid:
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
So what you're saying is that the placebo damage overlay mapping needs to be shown sooner, so that we "feel" we're doing more damage

Come on now, Ob. Neither stik nor I are newbies http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif Disagree, but don't suggest the 'feel good' damage layer will make us feel like we're making progress



Well m8, I don't care much for 'feel good damage' either, but I I think hits should produce damage.

Regarding planes I have gone through most damage textures and there is damage to spare.
I have posted about itt before and to oleg.
I suggested all planes should be tuned as the A20 C wich can be holed with the pea-shooters of the ki-27.
A20C is one example of welltuned 'actual' and 'visual' damage.
Many planes are not tuned although they have the damage to spare.

That's what I'm talking about. Not 'feel good'


Posted some examples here (a bit down the page):
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63110913/m/2571022815/p/3


Think about it. A ki-27 can hole an A20C with its two 7mm, but hardly another ki-27.
The ki-27 is just one example. plenty to go.

Try the A20C's damage textures for a couple of days and compare to most others.

What I did and think the A20C is the way to go. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v382/f19_ob/ob_ver2.jpg

F19_Olli72
01-09-2007, 03:46 AM
Originally posted by hi_stik:
In one instance, some guy had decided to come attack the red airbase, and he appeared to run out of ammo, so he ran north for home. 4 of us, in Hawk 81's (2x.50 nose guns, 4x.30 wing guns, a decent gun loadout for Nate killin') and 1 I-153 (no idea what the guns are, don't care for Russian birds, but still, it's more guns) repeatedly struck this lone Ki-27 in our passes...


That was me, and yes i was out of ammo. So you dont want to credit it to my superb ace flying skills then? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif j/k. But tbh all P-40 passes were very fast, they were like potshots that hit me (no real good 'bursts') and i dodged many of them too. The problem for me came when the Chaika appeared, i couldnt dodge him while you Hawk guys kept boom'n zooming me. I went down (or rather up to bail) when my fuel ran out from a leak.

But i have written about both Ki-27 and N1K2 in bugreport thread. Personally i think the Ki-27 dm is good with the exception of fire resistance, while the N1K2 wings for example seem totally immune to small calibre machineguns.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/Olli72/claudesig.jpg
F19 Virtual Squadron (http://www.f19vs.se/)
Screenshotart.com (http://www.screenshotart.com/)

hi_stik
01-09-2007, 09:24 AM
thanks, Olli, for speaking up. Yeah, you did manage to dodge quite a bit of the gunfire, but your predicament was only part of the larger picture...

Most of the Ki-27's that I shot up weren't flying around like a fruitbat on amphetamines, and I know that on several of them, I put a burst in them sufficient to flame up a Zeke (like on the Java or PH map) or a Ki-43 on the other maps (and this one), and yet they flew on, maybe w/ a fuel leak.

I won't pretend to understand the complexities of the game code by any stretch of the imagination, but I suspect that if the "damage model" were to match the Ki-43, for example, it would be realistic...well, much more so than now.

Mr_Nakajima
01-09-2007, 10:07 AM
Ki 27 fuel tanks were a 50 litre tank between the engine and pilot, and in the wings two 75 litre ones between the first and second spar and two 65 litre ones between the second and third spar, all in the centre wing section.

The filler caps can be seen on this image - one of the few I have which shows the top surfaces of a Ki-27.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v677/Mr_Nakajima/Ki27.jpg

So now you good people know were to aim.

hi_stik
01-09-2007, 10:30 AM
THAT'S fine and dandy to know where the gas caps are, but the point remains: If we shot at those caps, would it catch fire?

My guess is no

XyZspineZyX
01-09-2007, 10:38 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif becoming somewhat comical

Thank You Mr Nakajima. Could you be so good as to explain then why the wing roots catch fire, as opposed to the center of the wing? I wonder if you yourself have fired on the Ki-27's wings and observed the effects in the game

Also, could you confirm my standpoint that the throttle is working in the wrong direction in the Ki-27? My understanding is that it needs to be pulled backwards to open, not pushed forwards as is the case in-game<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/Chuck_Older/clarkchampion.jpg
Flower of Scotland, will we see your like again?

Mr_Nakajima
01-09-2007, 11:31 AM
Hi BBB462Cid - My understanding is that the wing fuel tanks extended into the wing roots, so you would expect to see that area catch fire. My books on the Ki-27 don't go into enough detail to help with your question on the throttle unfortunately.

Hi hi-Stik - My reason for posting the pic is to show that the Ki-27's fuel tanks are just where you would expect them to be. Nothing I have ready suggests any form of protection for them, and as none was included on Nakajima's next fighter (Ki-43) I would not expect there was any.

I would have thought it was at least as vulnerable as the Ki-43. From a quick test I have just done (specifically firing at the wing roots) I would agree with those who say that the Ki-27 doesn't burn very easily, and when I have flown it myself I've taken quite a few hits, but not burst into flames either.

So my gut feeling it that it is harder to flambe than it should be.

hi_stik
01-09-2007, 01:25 PM
I apologize if that seemed like a rude post, that was not my intent.

I only hope that this thread doesn't degrade into a quote-fest, followed by a digression into one of the following

A: How evil George Bush really is
B: How awesome/crappy the P-51 (F6F, Fw-190, etc.) is
C: How evil Wal-Mart really is
D: How crazy Raaaid really is

Keep on rockin' in the Free World, Mr. Nakajima

F19_Olli72
01-09-2007, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by hi_stik:
I suspect that if the "damage model" were to match the Ki-43, for example, it would be realistic...well, much more so than now.

I agree, and thats more or less exactly what i posted in bugreport:

Also the Ki-27 is too fire resistant for beeing totally unprotected early japanese plane. Ki-43 I burns more easily than Ki-27. <div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/Olli72/claudesig.jpg
F19 Virtual Squadron (http://www.f19vs.se/)
Screenshotart.com (http://www.screenshotart.com/)

Gibbage1
01-09-2007, 04:48 PM
Try and see how often a Betty burns.

http://www.gibbageart.com/files/grab0000.jpg

Ugh. Im not saying it WONT burn, but 9 out of 10 wont. Thats just not right.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v461/gibbage/xb35.jpg

Vo101_Isegrim AkA Kurfurst__ "though the Northrop fantasy (B-35)
bomber you want to add to Il-2 never even got to the
prototype stage, while the Gotha did."

Bull_dog_
01-09-2007, 07:14 PM
I was also flying on the Burma map...maybe the same time as I got vulched twice and one Ki rammed me while I was taxiing....anyways, I'm getting off topic...I shot down two Ki-27's in that map an one I really hammered and no flames.

Offline, I have gotten flames and the AI do a decent job of augering in overall but I would agree with the original poster in that this plane, along with a few others already noted do not burn the way they should. I've read that the self sealing tanks the Japanese developed were not nearly as effective as those by other countries and in some cases pilots removed them to gain performance...not that I would know for sure.

Anyways...at medium and low altitude, a burning Japanese plane was a common sight over the Pacific and should be in this game. Planes that are suspect are the Ki-27, George, Betty, Val, Kate and the flying boat of death...other planes, especially the Ki-21 seem Just Right!

Lordbutter4
01-13-2007, 01:01 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just for fun I ran alittle test in QCM for myself. I used various allied fighters, testing 4 50's, 6 50's, 8 50's, 4 20mm, and 12 303's. I set up a flight of 4 freindly Georges, flew in behind them, and let them have it. I repeated the test a couple of times each.

Using 51b (4 50's)- Almost a good 4 to 5 second burst required to split them in half. I flamed 1 and split rest of group. Various fuel leaks but didnt notice any preformace drops, as they were still in formation.

51/hellcat/wildcat - Almost same results. Except no flames, just all splits.

47- Again, a 4 to 5 second continuous stream to split. Ive seen 3 spots of fuel leak (engine, both wing roots) but no fire.

Hurricane IIc- Feels like this should be how the 50's should hit. Come in, burst a 2 or 3 second continous, get split or wing off. Fuel leaks as well. Does not feel like 20mm however, especially 4 of them (could be due to desyncing)

Hurricane IIb- Almost a 10 second stream of fire untill plane heads in a slow dive down. Did flame 1. Ran out of ammo, and could not kill the last one.

Another interesting find is I put myself up with a flight of 27's. They are even more resiliant then the george. Considering they have no armor or self sealing very interesting. On a good note hitting the left wing root will almost always cause a fire. Not the right. You will see a black stripe on the left wing, hit this and a fire will break out.

For alittle comparison I put myslef against a flight of FW 190 A8, and ran the same tests. In a nut shell the FW's would almost always go down to pilot kills before splits or fires.

Very interesting.

Aaron_GT
01-13-2007, 01:57 AM
Ugh. Im not saying it WONT burn, but 9 out of 10 wont. Thats just not right.

I thought in the thread dedicated to this, Gibbage, the response back from others was that for some the Betty fuel tanks burned without problems, and only seemed reluctant to burn for you and a few others? I don't have '46 yet (Amazon is taking its time!) so I can't test in '46 currently.

DustyBarrels77
01-16-2007, 04:44 PM
spitfire much to weak
bf109s much to strong
hurricane much to strong
p-38 1 shot glass tail
p-47 weak tail
p39 to strong
p63 to strong
fw190 much to strong like the beaufighter
p51 takes massive hits to the fuselage like alot of ac but wing hits will break off in 2-3 hits n 1 hit always deflects to engine.
corsair & hellcat 1 shot wing rip offs
then the really insane dms are beaufighter, he111, ki21, bf110, ki27, ju88, 190, pe2-3 all have insane dms and take massive hits from multiple cannon fighters.
the the new il10 seems to have an extremely weak dm so do the il2s, then the stukas can take alot of hits.

all russian and italian fighters take hits like the german dms to strong while the us heavies take hits like zeros.
iar80 also takes massive hits.



best way to see is do tests with the same ac vs same ac, for example you will think german 20mms are weak when firing it at a 109 or 190.

Then it will tear off a tempests wing or spits wing in 2 hits if you think im bias.

I dont know if anyone from 1c noticed but 30% of the aircraft are not showing damage layers 1 2 but only showing damaga tga 3 for some reason. Maybe its just another to much work to fix thing.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:M98REgPM-RPbEM:http://www.me-air-company.de/crash_gross/005.jpg