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View Full Version : P-39 DM Issues? Recon, Gemeni, P39 pilots



XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 07:55 PM
Recon has been mentioning the DM issues with the Cobra and just haven't seen them. In a DF server last night I noticed several Cobras struggle after I got 20mm wing hits on them. I also got several "delayed kills" with Cobras crashing a couple minutes after I damaged them. Has anyone else noticed issues?



(Don't think for a second that I'm happy with the Cobra climb and E-bleed issues you bastages, I just thought the DM was OK. AND STOP CHASING ME!!! ) /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 07:55 PM
Recon has been mentioning the DM issues with the Cobra and just haven't seen them. In a DF server last night I noticed several Cobras struggle after I got 20mm wing hits on them. I also got several "delayed kills" with Cobras crashing a couple minutes after I damaged them. Has anyone else noticed issues?



(Don't think for a second that I'm happy with the Cobra climb and E-bleed issues you bastages, I just thought the DM was OK. AND STOP CHASING ME!!! ) /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 08:15 PM
Cobra's fly like sheit after hit in the wing. Their engine are also easly damaged after any hits.

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XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 08:36 PM
Your right.

I fly the P-39 50% of the time. When i get hit in the wing its game over for me. You just cant turn or manuver after one hole in the wing, i dont know why, but i find this is the only plane that dose this.

In some way or another the american planes are MD crapy.

Dont get me wrong, with the 1.1 patch the 47 was an improvment. i mean you could actualy stay in a df for a bit. But those 50's seem alittle week though. The one shot engine kill is still there.

I noticed the 39 bleeds E faster to while TnBing, but over all i think they dev team did a pretty good job.

The no rudder for the K-4 was a very good idea. lol

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 08:51 PM
"i find this is the only plane that dose this."

There are the same tendencies in all planes.

I think it might have to do with how the DM is represented visually. The neat looking holes and cut-aways seem to lure people into the illusion that a visible hole means serious damage, and no holes means no damage.

I think it's in those cases where the actual amount of damage done to the wing is just below the point where the system would replace wing textures to the alpha-masked damage textures, which presents a confusing status - ie. in actual damage calculation your wing is hit hard and would have a decline in lift(thus the banking tendency), but when you check the wing, all you see is a few MG holes.

In the case of the Bf109s, you don't notice the tendency because usually any kind of good hit will immediately show a hole in the wing, and people take it for granted it means their maneuvering days are over. However, in some planes with tougher DM like the P-47, Fw190, P-39 and etc, hits in the wing often cause a banking in that direction and loss of speed, indicating that the hit wing has lost some lift.

Oh, and let's stay away from something like "In some way or another the american planes are MD crapy." It just takes that much away from the validity of your statement.

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XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 08:52 PM
The difference in flight performance after a little damage is much greater than in other fighters IMO.


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XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 09:14 PM
I second that.

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XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 09:16 PM
BpGemini wrote:
- The difference in flight performance after a little
- damage is much greater than in other fighters IMO.

Then you're not flying a wide enough variety of planes.

If I had a buck for every time I've taken a short burst of mg fire only to lose total control of A) aelerons B) rudder or C) elevators in a 109 then I'd be running a pretty fancy rig right now.

And these bursts can come from planes as far off as 500 to 800 meters, so unless their convergences are set for that range, then we're talking spray and pray and not sniper fire.

And it's not degredation in performance; it's total loss of control. No hope of even limping home if it's the elevators or aelerons. Cntl E, that's it.

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 09:17 PM
Could be, gemini.

But it could also mean:

1) the P-39 had weak wings
2) it may not be a 'little damage' at all

I think i'm gonna have to call my friend or somebody, and ask them to pepper me with a very quick 'tap' of the triger to produce about 5 rounds of machine guns on the wings, and see if that really causes the wing droop. Otherwise, it could be that many more rounds are hitting the wings than actually perceived.





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XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 09:24 PM
Chadburn wrote:
- Then you're not flying a wide enough variety of
- planes.
-
- If I had a buck for every time I've taken a short
- burst of mg fire only to lose total control of A)
- aelerons B) rudder or C) elevators in a 109 then I'd
- be running a pretty fancy rig right now.
-
- And these bursts can come from planes as far off as
- 500 to 800 meters, so unless their convergences are
- set for that range, then we're talking spray and
- pray and not sniper fire.
-
- And it's not degredation in performance; it's total
- loss of control. No hope of even limping home if
- it's the elevators or aelerons. Cntl E, that's it.



I'm not talking about damaged parts.
Actually I don't get that too often in the P-39.
I'm talking about wing damage making the plane sluggish.
That effect is more severe in the 39 IMO.




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XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 09:24 PM
kweassa wrote:
- "i find this is the only plane that dose
- this."
-
- There are the same tendencies in all planes.
-
-
- I think it might have to do with how the DM is
- represented visually. The neat looking holes and
- cut-aways seem to lure people into the illusion that
- a visible hole means serious damage, and no holes
- means no damage.
-
-
- I think it's in those cases where the actual amount
- of damage done to the wing is just below the point
- where the system would replace wing textures to the
- alpha-masked damage textures, which presents a
- confusing status - ie. in actual damage calculation
- your wing is hit hard and would have a decline in
- lift(thus the banking tendency), but when you check
- the wing, all you see is a few MG holes.
-
-
- In the case of the Bf109s, you don't notice the
- tendency because usually any kind of good hit will
- immediately show a hole in the wing, and people take
- it for granted it means their maneuvering days are
- over. However, in some planes with tougher DM like
- the P-47, Fw190, P-39 and etc, hits in the wing
- often cause a banking in that direction and loss of
- speed, indicating that the hit wing has lost some
- lift.
-
-
- Oh, and let's stay away from something like "In
- some way or another the american planes are MD
- crapy." It just takes that much away from the
- validity of your statement.


How about lets not.


Again 50% of the time I fly the P-39, the rest of the time the P-47, Pe-8,He,La7, sometimes the P-40.


Out of these six planes the P-39 is almost un flyable when hit in the the wing. Try flying diferant planes.

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 09:55 PM
remember that DM dont display every hit on your plane (its only a texture) and its a big difference being hit by cannon shells compared to mg's.

Ive heard many complaints about allied fighters engine taking a single bop and then cut out. A single bop from a 30 mm cannon or even 20mm could disable a fighter or blow it up.( Hartmanns tactic ).

Another thing is when u get a hole in the wing ( all planes) it becomes hard to fly. Next time take a good look at the size of the hole and compare it with the pilot.

In planes with metal wings the edges of the damageholes is not allways neatly cut but often rugged/buckled with metalplating sticking up causing drag.( This is modeled in the brewster.) So even if aileroncables isnt damaged the disrupted airflow of the damaged wing can be enough to cause it to bank or dip.

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XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 10:06 PM
You guys obviously dont spend much time in the dora. Any hits to the doras wings will cause a severe roll to that direction making the plane almost uncontrollable. In addition you lose a huge chunk of top speed.

It also seems like all these planes that roll hard with wing hits are planes that have good roll rates. Having a good roll rate usually comes from the plane being unstable on the roll axis, making little input cause the plane to roll. I would say a hole in the wing would be just as much input(loss of lift) as the airelon on that wing being deflected.

I think people expect too much damage to be taken by these planes. When I read pilot accounts and books I hear pilots feeling lucky when they find 4 or 5 bullet holes in their planes after a mission, a 20mm to a wing would be pretty scary and I would be very happy to make it back alive, let alone try to manouver like that.

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XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 10:12 PM
The whole point of this thread is to see if anyone has noticed the P-39 not effected by damage. It looks like the concensus shows that the FM does respond to damage and the DM is OK.

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 10:21 PM
lbhskier37 wrote:
- I think people expect too much damage to be taken by these planes.


I didn't get that from this thread at all, just a comparison between DMs.


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XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 11:12 PM
109 also is very hard to fly back home when you get damage in wings and ailerons. I would like it to be fixed

Screenshot included:
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XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 11:26 PM
I wouldn't take your opinion on a few pilots in one thread.

I'll beg to differ on this matter.

The perspective I hear this taken from is from the p39 pilot.


However, as you know, I mostly fly US aircraft, but I switch to German side to fly the F4 or 190a5.

Last night, with comms on with some squad mates - (I will produce track). I came in hard with the 190a5, and parked behind the p39:

I'm thinking "this guy is going down hard" - and proceeded to cut loose with everything that 190 has - I see little explosions - then this nice puffy black smoke rings pouring out the back.

I'm thinking - no use wasting any ammo, time to climb again as always.

The p39 not only didn't go down, he followed me and we ended up in a brutal scissors fight.

Now - how in the heck can this susposedly beat to h3ll aircraft end up in a fight like this?


I don't care how 'tough' a p39 is - a buttload of ammo in the rear from a 190a5 leaves no excuse for continued flying - I'm not talking about a 800m shot, I'm talking about a 200/300m shot.

Maybe I just had a run of bad luck - I find it incredibly unrealistic.

So - what I hear in this thread is, I should aim for wings only. Sure, makes sense, but is it realistic that a p39 hit from direct back six up and direct not experience substantial damage?

That was the 190a5 - and what led to me flying that was that all these p47's are in the air now and you need all the firepower you can get for that bad boy http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


to be fair - I had a p40 come behind me and to be honest, I completely ignored him one round - why? The 190 has the same issues - go ahead, hit me a few times I say - then pull an incredible barrel roll (thing rolls incredibly fast) - and pull behind him while he spins outa control.

So - i took a load of .50's and that didn't effect my roll performance at all.

In my opinion, which I will say, experience should come after data, so, I will back down with good data http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif - both the p39 and the 190 take too much damage. I'm not saying it should break in half - but it's performance should greatly be minimize.



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XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 11:50 PM
LOL! Sharx66 that SS is hilarious.
As a long time P39 Pilot I can honestly say that fire has a devestating effect. In the old days it seemed as though any hitfrom a machine gun of any calliber to the old achillies heel, the wings, would result in a gaping hole and a serious reduction in speed. Any hit from a cannon would result in the wing just plain falling off. A dead 6 hit was much more tolerable in that you would usually just loose the oil pan and be able to get most of the way home before any loss of performance was noted.
The new DM is much much better in that there seems to be some tolerance and stages to the DM and the FM will cause loss of lift in the effected wing. Any hits to the wings is cause for me to abort immeadiately and RTB. At least the thing doesnt fall off at the slightest hint of impact. Dead 6 hits still are not too bad. They will take out the oil pan almost instantly but you still have some time to RTB or fight it out. Just be sure to bail as soon as fire is sighted cause you only have a few seconds till it will go boom.
My mates have been joking about finding me by the thin trail of oil these days as I fly the P-39 a lot. Anyhow the point of the matter is when hunting the 39 dont aim for the cockpit or the body. Aim for the WINGS! Then you may go about finishing the kill at your leisure and in relative safety.

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XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 12:17 AM
Alright, I'll test it this weekend Recon.


While on the subject. The P-39 should be the most vulnerable plane in the sim from dead six. Should only take MGs to seriously damage the engine with the Soviets removing the oil cooler and firewall armor. I never could understand in IL-2 however, why MG fire from bomber gunners would damage my Cobras engine in head-ons. The rear mounted engine should be well protected from frontal fire, right?

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 01:00 AM
Well, I'm not a p39 expert, I shouldn't even be in this list of good p39 pilots - they'd eat me alive http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif



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XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 01:14 AM
(Regarding the original post/topic) There was a 190 thread a couple of weeks ago that dealt with the exact same thing. Get hit once and your planes performance goes to crap. I'm not complaining either way, actually I think all planes should be crippled/effected fairly easily.

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XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 01:17 AM
I do too.

I think what is disturbing is not so much one aircraft's DM, but the disparity between a 109 and p39 for example.

Was the 109 really that fragile of a fighter?

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XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 01:23 AM
I've even noticed this on Yak's which seem to be the easiest and most forgiving of all the planes to fly. In one DM server one FW pilot plastered me with as much 20mm fire as possible from extended range. He wasn't close so he wasn't scoring heavy hits...but there was the little bullet decals to my wings. Now the guy started complaining that German 20mm's weren't good (this is 1.1B) but little did he know that I could not turn the plane anymore...the drag was so much on the one wing that I had the stick half to the otherside just to stay level along the water. I used the rudder to skid myself out of the way and he overshot...I crashed thereafter by turning towards the airfield.

Most planes, after a few hits to the wings start to behave in very nasty ways. If this is realistic, I can live with it...it seems to not be limited to a single plane but virtually all of them.

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XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 03:11 AM
I think my problem is bad aim overall and shooting from too far.

My 190 experience : I should have left him quicker and let me just run outa fuel or crash.

People had no problem shooting me down tonight http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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Message Edited on 09/06/0302:12AM by Recon_609IAP

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 03:12 AM
VF_310thSilent wrote:

-
- Out of these six planes the P-39 is almost un
- flyable when hit in the the wing. Try flying
- diferant planes.
-


I mostly fly the P39 online and don't have complaints about DM at all. I used to fly the 109 before, but i changed precisely because the 109 was SO weak, as if it's made of paper.

Comparatively, the P39 is ok. A few hits in the wings will often lead to fuel leaks, but nothing lethal. Damaged wings don't stop me bringing my plane home. I often do that actuallly, which must be really frustrating for pilots who take me for dead /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif