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View Full Version : When is a cigar just a cigar???



dirtdigger54
07-07-2008, 11:48 AM
I'm relatively new to the sim, and I might not be qualified to make any assumptions or determinations of this sim, but I have seen something I'm just not sure how to classify:

The growing debate over mods, has been a bit of a surprise to me. I'm seeing reactions of players (virtual Pilots??) here that I'm not exactly understanding. I realize if you spend countless hours doing something one gets a bit wound up when things change-- to a degree. But some of the reactions seem to be a bit "excessive." I think we all would like to live out a fantasy of being a WW2 pilot, but the truth is it isn't going to happen. My kill to death ratio proves that.... It might even be nice to be the best at a sim that is as realistic as possible,but that won't happen either in my honest opinion. Truth is the pucker factor isn't there... Real bullets and real threat to your life doesn't allow it. The rest is all technicalities. Having said all this, what difference does it really make if someone mods the game or not, flys better than everyone else or not??? In the grand scale of things, as much as I LOVE this sim, playing it or not doesn't get me any closer to the real world stuff like a morgage and my car payment.

I don't in any way think morally on this sim... it is supposed to be fun and enjoyable. When it isn't it is time to move on. Of course like always I am speaking for myself here....

But I'm willing to realize that the moderators are not paid a dime for doing what they do... for US!!! Kinda selfless if you ask me. To attack anyone over a game is just plain silly and demonstrates poor "sportspersonship".

As for all the moders??? what do they get for trying to give us a more realistic game? Which by the way was all but abandoned by the powers that be.

As I said, I speak for no one but myself....Which is, ironically, the very basis of the independant pilot.

DD

BSS_Goat
07-07-2008, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by dirtdigger54:
Which by the way was all but abandoned by the powers that be.


OOOOH! That should strike a nerve...... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Bearcat99
07-07-2008, 12:09 PM
I hear ya DD... I'm just having fun... and personally I think that if these mods hadn't been around ... 46 might not be selling as good as it is now... I know when I went to the Udvar Hazey museum with the sim last month.. one thing that most of he folks who tried the sim said was "Those sounds are incredible... " and "Where can I get this sim..? "

After I explained to them that they could get the sim anywhere but the sounds that they hear were not stock sounds but sounds made by an unofficial modification to the sim.... they all still wanted to know where they could get the sim... and the sounds...

I just found out that these mods were actually out before all this broke here in September of last year.. but it was all on the DL... These mods have actually been out for just over a year if not a bit longer it just hit these boards in Sept-Oct of 07.

Personally I am glad that I waited 9 m0nths before i tried them.. and I am also glad that I took the time to see what was going on at AAA myself before I formed a judgement on it's admins & modders or the work they were doing there.

For me ... and I have said this since day one. Search my posts not only here but at AAAas well, that these mods will not be going away and it is only going to grow.

Change is inevitable, it is better to direct it rather than to simply go through it.

Ritter_Cuda
07-07-2008, 10:58 PM
Originally posted by dirtdigger54:
I'm relatively new to the sim, and I might not be qualified to make any assumptions or determinations of this sim, but I have seen something I'm just not sure how to classify:

The growing debate over mods, has been a bit of a surprise to me. I'm seeing reactions of players (virtual Pilots??) here that I'm not exactly understanding. I realize if you spend countless hours doing something one gets a bit wound up when things change-- to a degree. But some of the reactions seem to be a bit "excessive." I think we all would like to live out a fantasy of being a WW2 pilot, but the truth is it isn't going to happen. My kill to death ratio proves that.... It might even be nice to be the best at a sim that is as realistic as possible,but that won't happen either in my honest opinion. Truth is the pucker factor isn't there... Real bullets and real threat to your life doesn't allow it. The rest is all technicalities. Having said all this, what difference does it really make if someone mods the game or not, flys better than everyone else or not??? In the grand scale of things, as much as I LOVE this sim, playing it or not doesn't get me any closer to the real world stuff like a morgage and my car payment.

I don't in any way think morally on this sim... it is supposed to be fun and enjoyable. When it isn't it is time to move on. Of course like always I am speaking for myself here....

But I'm willing to realize that the moderators are not paid a dime for doing what they do... for US!!! Kinda selfless if you ask me. To attack anyone over a game is just plain silly and demonstrates poor "sportspersonship".

As for all the moders??? what do they get for trying to give us a more realistic game? Which by the way was all but abandoned by the powers that be.

As I said, I speak for no one but myself....Which is, ironically, the very basis of the independant pilot.

DD

well said . as a fried used to say "WE Are not saveing the whales here"

Capt.LoneRanger
07-07-2008, 11:22 PM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
I hear ya DD... I'm just having fun... and personally I think that if these mods hadn't been around ... 46 might not be selling as good as it is now... I know when I went to the Udvar Hazey museum with the sim last month.. one thing that most of he folks who tried the sim said was "Those sounds are incredible... " and "Where can I get this sim..? "

After I explained to them that they could get the sim anywhere but the sounds that they hear were not stock sounds but sounds made by an unofficial modification to the sim.... they all still wanted to know where they could get the sim... and the sounds...

I just found out that these mods were actually out before all this broke here in September of last year.. but it was all on the DL... These mods have actually been out for just over a year if not a bit longer it just hit these boards in Sept-Oct of 07.

Personally I am glad that I waited 9 m0nths before i tried them.. and I am also glad that I took the time to see what was going on at AAA myself before I formed a judgement on it's admins & modders or the work they were doing there.

For me ... and I have said this since day one. Search my posts not only here but at AAAas well, that these mods will not be going away and it is only going to grow.

Change is inevitable, it is better to direct it rather than to simply go through it.

You know what made me smile?

When IL2 was released, it was the extremely realistic sound that was judged one of the most immersive and most realistic aspects of this game, by all reviews I read ( in 3 different Gamemagazines, 2 German offline and 1 UK online).

The increased number of sales we see now, added up when 1946 was released - the first full version without any addons necessary after several YEARS of IL2. The second wave of increased sales was when it reached the budget-game-status and it was clear there were no further to-buy-addons.

As there was no soundmod (at least not that popular), when 1946 was released, your drawn conclusions are pretty superficial.

Tab_Flettner
07-07-2008, 11:36 PM
I agree 100% DD, and I can only add that if you think this is bad, you missed last fall.

Nature is taking its course, as it always does, with some people exercising leadership, and some not, on both sides of the debate. Consensus will be found somewhere near the middle, some will be left on the margins, again, on both sides.

As the saying goes, "today's revolution is tomorrows establishment".

Bearcat99
07-08-2008, 12:36 AM
Originally posted by Capt.LoneRanger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
I hear ya DD... I'm just having fun... and personally I think that if these mods hadn't been around ... 46 might not be selling as good as it is now... I know when I went to the Udvar Hazey museum with the sim last month.. one thing that most of he folks who tried the sim said was "Those sounds are incredible... " and "Where can I get this sim..? "

After I explained to them that they could get the sim anywhere but the sounds that they hear were not stock sounds but sounds made by an unofficial modification to the sim.... they all still wanted to know where they could get the sim... and the sounds...

I just found out that these mods were actually out before all this broke here in September of last year.. but it was all on the DL... These mods have actually been out for just over a year if not a bit longer it just hit these boards in Sept-Oct of 07.

Personally I am glad that I waited 9 m0nths before i tried them.. and I am also glad that I took the time to see what was going on at AAA myself before I formed a judgement on it's admins & modders or the work they were doing there.

For me ... and I have said this since day one. Search my posts not only here but at AAAas well, that these mods will not be going away and it is only going to grow.

Change is inevitable, it is better to direct it rather than to simply go through it.

You know what made me smile?

When IL2 was released, it was the extremely realistic sound that was judged one of the most immersive and most realistic aspects of this game, by all reviews I read ( in 3 different Gamemagazines, 2 German offline and 1 UK online).

The increased number of sales we see now, added up when 1946 was released - the first full version without any addons necessary after several YEARS of IL2. The second wave of increased sales was when it reached the budget-game-status and it was clear there were no further to-buy-addons.

As there was no soundmod (at least not that popular), when 1946 was released, your drawn conclusions are pretty superficial. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps.. but it is just my opinion.. and conjecture on my part is not gospel.. I guess I should have said... still selling so well but I don't have the numbers. All I know is for a while 46 was sitting on the shelves... and i check... every single time I go into any retail store that sells it... from Wal Mart & Best Buy to Microcenter & Circuit City.. every time.. I sometimes make trips there just to see how it is selling... just out of curiosity.. and I noticed that it has been moving more over tha past few months... an ebb & flow... and it has been $19 US now for a while.. but again.. it could be conjecture on my part.

As for the sounds in the original IL2... yes they were revolutionary.. It definitely added to the chatrm of the sim.. I still can hear them when I close my eyes...

Capt.LoneRanger
07-08-2008, 12:59 AM
Of course you can have your personal opinion, Bearcat.

It just made me really wonder a lot for the reasons already stated and the fact that you are here even longer and more active than I am. Considering how many new guys entered this forum alone, not even daring to speak of the 1C-Forum, who didn't even know about the mod until somebody "risked" a ban sending them a link or until this recent change in policies, it's just my personal opinion, that this mod is not largely influencing numbers of sales.

If you had numbers showing that this late developments increased the number of sales, lets say over the last 2 months, I'd beg your pardon officially, of course, but the way it is, it's rather your personal feelings summed up to something that you'd personally very much like to see.

WTE_Galway
07-08-2008, 01:31 AM
Originally posted by dirtdigger54:
I'm relatively new to the sim, and I might not be qualified to make any assumptions or determinations of this sim, but I have seen something I'm just not sure how to classify:

The growing debate over mods, has been a bit of a surprise to me. I'm seeing reactions of players (virtual Pilots??) here that I'm not exactly understanding. I realize if you spend countless hours doing something one gets a bit wound up when things change-- to a degree. But some of the reactions seem to be a bit "excessive." I think we all would like to live out a fantasy of being a WW2 pilot, but the truth is it isn't going to happen. My kill to death ratio proves that.... It might even be nice to be the best at a sim that is as realistic as possible,but that won't happen either in my honest opinion. Truth is the pucker factor isn't there... Real bullets and real threat to your life doesn't allow it. The rest is all technicalities. Having said all this, what difference does it really make if someone mods the game or not, flys better than everyone else or not??? In the grand scale of things, as much as I LOVE this sim, playing it or not doesn't get me any closer to the real world stuff like a morgage and my car payment.

I don't in any way think morally on this sim... it is supposed to be fun and enjoyable. When it isn't it is time to move on. Of course like always I am speaking for myself here....

But I'm willing to realize that the moderators are not paid a dime for doing what they do... for US!!! Kinda selfless if you ask me. To attack anyone over a game is just plain silly and demonstrates poor "sportspersonship".

As for all the moders??? what do they get for trying to give us a more realistic game? Which by the way was all but abandoned by the powers that be.

As I said, I speak for no one but myself....Which is, ironically, the very basis of the independant pilot.

DD

You need to look at the history of the issue.

It's important to bear in mind that what made IL2 a success in the first place was several facts.

- Firstly that despite the huge number of aircraft eventually flyable there was an almost obsessive attempt to ensure the FM's were historically accurate and whilst volunteers might create the 3D models it was up to 1C to do the flight models.(though some would disagree with that and claim Oleg always had a bias)this attracted a lot of genuine simmers including real world pilots with an interest in history.

- Secondly the reasonably successful anti-hacking efforts in the early years restored confidence in online gaming amongst a fairly jaded simming population who felt like other sims at the time had turned into "air-quake".

- in contrast, the MSFS and CFS games were literally deluged with 1000's of often dubious mods and weird and wonderful aircraft, everything from the Star Trek USS Enterprise through to Harry Potter broom's was around to download. Whilst some people saw this as a good thing others were sick of wasting hours downloading addons for the MS products only to find they were rubbish or conflicted with other addons and caused issues.

That was way back then. Oleg has moved on to SOW, (a somewhat odd decision I believe as a few fairly minor additional aircraft and a new map or two would have reaped a large return in new addons sold giving 1C more money to finance SoW)and the sim without something new will eventually lose its attraction.

Sooooo ... in one camp you have people faithful to the original commitment to an accurate highly controlled sim environment that made the game great in the first place and on the other hand people that feel without some new innovations and improvements the sim will die a natural death.

There is no right or wrong or correct answer, both sides have good points.

PanzerAce
07-08-2008, 02:58 AM
Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
Sooooo ... in one camp you have people faithful to the original commitment to an accurate highly controlled sim environment that made the game great in the first place and on the other hand people that feel without some new innovations and improvements the sim will die a natural death.

*rollseyes*

So....we can't be in both camps at once, can we? I'm not allowed to enjoy mods, yet also enjoy the realism of the sim? Hmmm.....guess I better go clone myself so I can play both.

And even though you say there is no right or wrong, I would argue that the way you phrased that last sentence clearly says that you DO think there is a right and wrong side to this.

LEXX_Luthor
07-08-2008, 03:35 AM
Yough Bear.

Looking at teh SIMHQ and teh AAA, I have seen a few Newbies to the sim poast they purchased into it for the modding potential, and some ancient modders from the the Sims of Old, the Sims of Reknown, now stepping up to FB/PF.

Beyond this handful, how many overall, I don't know. Perhaps not enough yet to "justify" the hack-modding on economics alone, but the effect is there.

WTE_Galway
07-08-2008, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by PanzerAce:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
Sooooo ... in one camp you have people faithful to the original commitment to an accurate highly controlled sim environment that made the game great in the first place and on the other hand people that feel without some new innovations and improvements the sim will die a natural death.

*rollseyes*

So....we can't be in both camps at once, can we? I'm not allowed to enjoy mods, yet also enjoy the realism of the sim? Hmmm.....guess I better go clone myself so I can play both.

And even though you say there is no right or wrong, I would argue that the way you phrased that last sentence clearly says that you DO think there is a right and wrong side to this. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Not really ... if things were like the 'old days' with no silly US copyright restrictions on modelling american built aircraft and Oleg and crew were still here doing FM's and releasing patches and talking about the next release of the game, I WOULD have said the anti-modders occupy the high ground.

However those days are gone, the sim engine is ancient in gaming turns (I have seen multiple copies of new IL2 1946 DVD's in discount bins at the local games store for $10 aussie (about $8 US)) and things move on. As I said before I play offline so its not a big issue for me.