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View Full Version : 109 Fans...Now I understand!



sgilewicz
04-05-2005, 10:44 AM
I fly offline exclusively and tend to fly American campaigns (I like big, fast and rugged even if they aren't particularly good TnB planes). However, last summer I began Operation Barbarossa and selected the FW190 campaign (see above for reason!). Well, the first quarter of the campaign forced me to fly the 109 and lo and behold I found it to be a very pleasant plane to fly especially for A2A. It turned well, accelerated quickly and was an excellent E fighter. I eventually moved on to the 190 which, although very different, I still enjoyed immensely. I finished the campaign in the fall and moved on to the BOE P38 and P47.

So now I read all these threads complaining about the 109 elevator response and have been thinking "what the hell are these guys talking about?", this is an agile and responsive fighter. This past weekend I installed Case Blue and selected the "Long Campaign". On the first mission I was to escort HE111's over the Crimea and was bounced by 4 Lagg3's. When I pulled back on the stick to loop and reverse direction at full throttle at 500 km/hr I found myself in ... a P38! The elevator response was gone! Since at least two patches have been implemented since I last flew the 109 the changes had to have occurred in that time. I honestly don't know if this is the correct modelling or not but I now understand what you folks have been hollering about. For you on-line fans that had to be a rude shock for a light and responsive plane to suddenly handle like a P47 but without the battle damage resistance! As the title says: Now I understand. Maybe 4.0 will address this if it is incorrect. Good hunting.

sgilewicz
04-05-2005, 10:44 AM
I fly offline exclusively and tend to fly American campaigns (I like big, fast and rugged even if they aren't particularly good TnB planes). However, last summer I began Operation Barbarossa and selected the FW190 campaign (see above for reason!). Well, the first quarter of the campaign forced me to fly the 109 and lo and behold I found it to be a very pleasant plane to fly especially for A2A. It turned well, accelerated quickly and was an excellent E fighter. I eventually moved on to the 190 which, although very different, I still enjoyed immensely. I finished the campaign in the fall and moved on to the BOE P38 and P47.

So now I read all these threads complaining about the 109 elevator response and have been thinking "what the hell are these guys talking about?", this is an agile and responsive fighter. This past weekend I installed Case Blue and selected the "Long Campaign". On the first mission I was to escort HE111's over the Crimea and was bounced by 4 Lagg3's. When I pulled back on the stick to loop and reverse direction at full throttle at 500 km/hr I found myself in ... a P38! The elevator response was gone! Since at least two patches have been implemented since I last flew the 109 the changes had to have occurred in that time. I honestly don't know if this is the correct modelling or not but I now understand what you folks have been hollering about. For you on-line fans that had to be a rude shock for a light and responsive plane to suddenly handle like a P47 but without the battle damage resistance! As the title says: Now I understand. Maybe 4.0 will address this if it is incorrect. Good hunting.

VW-IceFire
04-05-2005, 10:53 AM
I predict this one will be 14 pages long http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The elevator stiffness has been there for a while. The first campaign I ever flew was the 1945 Berlin campaign with the Bf.109K-4. I was knew and having the hottest fighter around was what I was all about flying. So I did. And for quite some time the K-4 was my favorite.

Even then, in a dive, the elevator would stiffen up. So I learned to be careful in a 109...the turn is great if you keep the plane at the right speed. Say 350kph. At that speed, few can touch you. If you get too fast, then you gently pull out and regain your altitude (few are even going to try and catch you at 700kph anyways).

Now I'm not sure if this is a historical thing or not...we've heard arguments for it being both rock solid or of average mobility in a dive...but if its the way its going to be...learn to fly the 109 in ways that prevent you from overspeeding. The 109s big advantage is that it can, if you really want it to, kill energy very quickly. Or it can hold it for quite some time. This can be a bonus when going into high speed fights. Fly to your advantage, their weakness.

gates123
04-05-2005, 11:48 AM
Instead of a 14 page whining thread try cutting your throttle and dropping to combat flaps for a second or two, works fine and will save you from being a lawn dart without too much of a speed drop. Once you feel like your safely not gonna hit the dirt, raise flaps and floor the throttle again ,especially if your being chased. Works well with the P-38J also. Knowing your planes limits can avoid this all togather.

BuzzU
04-05-2005, 12:00 PM
Losing the elevator was a big problem for the P-38. That's why they installed an air brake. Use it on the P-38L and it will pull you out of any dive. Use it in the turns and it will amaze you on how it turns.

sgilewicz
04-05-2005, 12:10 PM
gates123

I plead guilty to being a 109 novice. Your advice makes perfect sense but my post was not about the proper way to fly a 109 but the vast difference I saw in the flight model in less than one year's time. I stress that I have no knowledge whether or not the model is correct. I was simply acknowledging that what I saw as whines from the LW flyers actually resulted from FM changes (rightly or wrongly). I will be taking your advice though!

gates123
04-05-2005, 12:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
Losing the elevator was a big problem for the P-38. That's why they installed an air brake. Use it on the P-38L and it will pull you out of any dive. Use it in the turns and it will amaze you on how it turns. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Very true Buzz but since the 109 and 38j don't have air brakes I didnt see it worth mentioning.

FI_Willie
04-05-2005, 12:38 PM
One more trick I've learned flying the K-4 is to use elevator trim to help get out of that "lawn dart" mode.

I have the "thumb roller" on my X-45 mapped to elevator trim. Trimming the elevator full UP while trying to go back upstairs has helped me on more than one occasion when the stick wasn't doing the job by itself.

I never thought about applying combat flaps, I'll try that too, THANKS!. Every little bit helps when that thing is a in its' high speed brick mode.

F19_Ob
04-05-2005, 01:01 PM
Gates is right about cutting throttle and combat flap.

It's not just the 109, that goes for many planes.
I flew the 109 solely for a long time before I switched to all planes. I still think the 109 is one of the better planes at all speeds and altitudes. It can go from fast to zero speed faster than most because of the goodnatured stall.
I used that a lot to turn inside better turning planes, But the energy ofcourse is gone after that so it's best to hit.

sgilewicz
04-05-2005, 08:49 PM
BuzzU,
I'd like to give the flaps another go on the p38 but I have to say the BOE P38 campaign was an absolute dog. One ground pounding mission after another; virtually no mix in mission types. Any suggestions for an interesting P38 campaign?

BuzzU
04-05-2005, 09:55 PM
Not really. I've tried what you've tried. I'm not a huge fan of the P-38. I'd rather fly the Jug or P-51.

Badsight.
04-05-2005, 11:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gates123:
Instead of a 14 page whining thread try cutting your throttle and dropping to combat flaps for a second or two, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>how about instead of having to do that , the Bf109 is given its proper critical Mach & the proper elevator on the proper model

muffinstomp
04-06-2005, 01:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gates123:
Instead of a 14 page whining thread try cutting your throttle and dropping to combat flaps for a second or two, works fine and will save you from being a lawn dart without too much of a speed drop. Once you feel like your safely not gonna hit the dirt, raise flaps and floor the throttle again ,especially if your being chased. Works well with the P-38J also. Knowing your planes limits can avoid this all togather. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


...and makes you feel like a trim cheater. Sorry, I can't see no fun in playing a sim exploiting unhistorical codeflaws. Even when they are designated no vet would ever be with you when you used flaps as extensively as seen on DF maps. Flaps kill energy, period. Sad, eh?

Grue_
04-06-2005, 09:22 AM
I wouldn't waste any more breath on flight models until after v4.0.

Moderators will be kept busy I think..

Jumoschwanz
04-06-2005, 11:15 AM
From all historical accounts, the 109 is supposed to be great at low speed turning and rolling. At hight speed the elevator response is supposed to be poorer. When you fly it you just have to take this lack of high speed manueverability into account.

I have flown the 109 in this sim for the last three or more years and it has gone through many adjustments. As it is now it seems to match historical accounts of it's performance and I would be fine if it stayed generally the way it is now.

I have always stuck with it since the begining because I felt it would show lack of character to simply switch allegiance to whatever plane happened to fly the best in whatever patch. The planes performance was never my reason for flying it every chance I get.

I do think my gunnery is the best in this plane, I cannot seem to hit as well and am not used to the sights in other planes.

Whenever a servers sides are to far out of balance I will usually be the first to jump into an allied craft to even things up, but whenever I have the chance it is the 109 for me in air to air, and the other axis planes sometimes for ground attack. I used to fly the 190 much more for ground attack, but lately it is no more and seemingly less able to take hits than the 109, which seems a bit backward to me.

Sure, I have always hit the combat flaps to get more manueverability at high speed in the 109, and I discovered this in the P-38 when it came out too. I was surprised to find a long time Il2 pilot who I had flown with many times did not know that combat flaps would not jam and were a useful tool in high speed manuevering!

On trim, I have never used trim for much of anything since I started flying this sim! The only thing I do is to adjust the elevator trim so the plane will fly level with no climbing at high speed, that is it! Worrying about trim other than to reduce work at cruising speeds is a waste of time.

In the old Il2 and early FB, the 190 would take a beating. Now that the 190 is fragile, I will take the 109 despite it's few handling shortcomings just because I am used to it and know it best. S!
Jumoschwanz

carguy_
04-06-2005, 04:08 PM
About the historical data on elevator response at large speeds I don`t know what is historical should be resembled in the game,period.


Another thing it`s not so bad.I mean I noticed it but what is there to whine about?Dunno about others but I felt silly when pulling excessive Gs @550kph in Me109 before the patch.

It doesn`t have the influence on flying the plane like the undermodelling of MG151/20.

It gets changed-good.It doesn`t change-`k.

Atomic_Marten
04-06-2005, 05:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by carguy_:
About the historical data on elevator response at large speeds I don`t know what is historical should be resembled in the game,period.


Another thing it`s not so bad.I mean I noticed it but what is there to whine about?Dunno about others but I felt silly when pulling excessive Gs @550kph in Me109 before the patch.

It doesn`t have the influence on flying the plane like the undermodelling of MG151/20.

It gets changed-good.It doesn`t change-`k. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with you.