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View Full Version : What to do against an opponent who beats you in every spec



Afromike1
07-25-2008, 10:24 PM
This is a tuff situation where I always end up kissing the ground. The classic match up for me is the bf109 (as me) and the enemy as the la-7 or la-5fn. I looked up on il-2 compare and found out that the la series beats the 109s in every level (climb, turn, speed, etc.). My question is how to maneuver in a fight when I have someone on my 6'0clock. When I climb, he climbs better than me and gets the shot. When I dive, he dives faster than me and gets the shot. When I turn, he turns better than me and gets the shot. To me, the only answer to shake someone off my tail is to do a split-S but that La always seems to turn tighter and gets the shot.

Also, I would like to know after I shake the La off my tail, what is the best way to make him go from the offensive to the defensive with me on his 6'0clock?

ffb
07-25-2008, 10:36 PM
...sneak under his computer desk and pull the mains plug out.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

jayhall0315
07-25-2008, 11:32 PM
I fly the La-7 alot and it has two main weaknesses; its dive limit and its high altitude performance. Therefore, always engage an La-7 above 3000 m if you can where the Bf 109 G2 starts to equal it in many ways. After engaging, keep climbing; do not lose energy and allow yourself to head lower, where he has the advantage. If an La gets on your six, dive away from him and try to bring your Bf up to 780 kph. At this speed you will still be okay but his wings will rip off and you will escape.

Since the La is also subject to blackouts easier than the Bf 109, there are also barrel roll techniques you can use to black out the La pilot while you remain conscious and escape.

Do not get in a turning battle down low with an La as they really have you beat in all categories below 2000m.

Cheers,
Jay

julian265
07-26-2008, 01:45 AM
+1 to the selection of engagement altitude... Climb before battle, and exit before you drop too low.

I'll also add a suggestion: teamwork.

And just a nit-pick on the Jayhall's post, if you're fighting against a good La7 pilot, he/she will know that the plane can change pitch well at high speed, and not yank back on the stick, to avoid the black out.

K_Freddie
07-26-2008, 02:10 AM
It's not about specs, and advantages.. it's all about attitude http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
If you haven't see this before - old but relavent
LA-v-FW190 (51MB) (http://htttp://www.vanjast.com/IL2Movies/UsAndThem.avi)

Check out the DF section where the LA holds all the cards, but still gets taken out.
Dogfighting is all about trickery and 'treasonous behaviour' accompanied with BAD attitudes..
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

chunkydora
07-26-2008, 02:16 AM
I would suggest not even going into altitudes where he is in his element except to BnZ. Like Jay said, Lavochkins are not meant for high altitude, so stay up high and don't TnB with him. I also fly the La-7 a lot, and know it is the king of TnB. But as the plane that can fly high up, you can dictate how the engagement goes if you are smart about it.

Good Luck!

DKoor
07-26-2008, 04:08 AM
If you suspect he is a better player, climb then run away.
Cannot be more simple http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif .

ICDP
07-26-2008, 04:11 AM
As you have seen from IL2 compare the performance of the La7 is no slouch even at high altitude. The La7 is a fairly equal match for the 109G10 and G14 even when they use Mw50. It is only beat by the 109K4 with MW50 but when the MW50 runs out on your late 109 the La7 is every bit the equal or superior right up to 10,000m.

I recently had a 109G6 pilot accuse me of cheating because I was able to slowly catch him and outfly him at 6,000m while flying an La5-FN. I suggested he do some research before dismissing the La5-FN as crap over 3000m. Please don't fall into the trap that the La7 is totally outclassed over 3,000m by your late model Bf109G6-AS, G10 or G14. You can only match its performance with the use of MW50. The La5-FN and La7 have a full throttle height of 6,000m and are not complete dogs over 3,000m. Treat them with respect.

Feathered_IV
07-26-2008, 04:15 AM
Can't think of any one plane that can domminate in every aspect. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

LovroSL
07-26-2008, 05:43 AM
Pick your tactical situations. If you have to fight somebody superior do so with E and tactical advantage.
Remember you want to create situations where you dominate your pray, not fight it in equal terms.

Want to kill La-7 with 109?- hit it with a fast BnZ pass at 4000m and your wingman at your side.

Dont have a wingman? you are the deck? = get the hell out of there

Afromike1
07-26-2008, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by DKoor:
If you suspect he is a better player, climb then run away.
Cannot be more simple http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif .

whats the best way to get out of a fight like that? cause climbing makes him catch up to me and I can never seem to successfully know how to outrun an opponent as fast as the La.

Freiwillige
07-26-2008, 05:32 PM
Well best climb speed and best climb angle are differant. A LA-7 may outclimb a 109 in feet per minute or may have a fster climbing speed but nothing I have flown can hold a better climbing angle than the 109. It can hold a slow steep climb angle and hang on its prop where they cannot and fall away or they have to reduce their angle and fly under you and out ahead of you. So if you get slow put the nose up as high as you can hold her and maintain flight controll and if they arent in a position to nail you they will lose their E and fall.
Its complicated to explain....hope you understand. Your climbing steeper but they are climbing faster and if they match your steep angle they cannot hang on their prop and stall violently. Best I can explain it.

T_O_A_D
07-26-2008, 07:23 PM
No mention of your wingman here.

Do you have one, if not get one.

SeaFireLIV
07-26-2008, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by T_O_A_D:
No mention of your wingman here.

Do you have one, if not get one.

Agreed. Much of this talk seems to be 1v1, but realistically, most fights were never 1v1. Have a wingman with some pilot skill and even in an inferior plane you have a good chance.

mortoma
07-27-2008, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by Feathered_IV:
Can't think of any one plane that can dominate in every aspect. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif I can but it didn't see actual combat in WWII. And in game, if flown right it's unbeatable. And that's the YP-80. I feel the overall speed, accel and climb are optimistic in the game but I'm not sure. And I'm talking about when flown against it's late war contemporaries, not saying it it would out turn a I-153 or anything.

DKoor
07-27-2008, 10:11 AM
Originally posted by Afromike1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
If you suspect he is a better player, climb then run away.
Cannot be more simple http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif .

whats the best way to get out of a fight like that? cause climbing makes him catch up to me and I can never seem to successfully know how to outrun an opponent as fast as the La. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
That depends on the situation.
If you find yourself out of your best altitudes of performance and also on equal terms, you will likely lose the fight (unless the pilot factor plays the big part in your favour).
Important thing to remember that no matter what altitude, aircraft above you is always a threat whilst those below you never are (unless you make it so, or those are much better aircraft).

Once you get significant number of online hours under your belt you will understand that perfectly.
You will be able to shot down the best of the best online pilots if you catch them from above, no big wonder in all that.

M_Gunz
07-27-2008, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by Afromike1:
This is a tuff situation where I always end up kissing the ground. The classic match up for me is the bf109 (as me) and the enemy as the la-7 or la-5fn. I looked up on il-2 compare and found out that the la series beats the 109s in every level (climb, turn, speed, etc.). My question is how to maneuver in a fight when I have someone on my 6'0clock. When I climb, he climbs better than me and gets the shot. When I dive, he dives faster than me and gets the shot. When I turn, he turns better than me and gets the shot. To me, the only answer to shake someone off my tail is to do a split-S but that La always seems to turn tighter and gets the shot.

Also, I would like to know after I shake the La off my tail, what is the best way to make him go from the offensive to the defensive with me on his 6'0clock?

Bottom of the 9th, trailing by 1 with 2 outs, 2 strikes and a foul -- then you ask what to do?

In a 109K you could use your speed. Unload your wings in a shallow dive (but not in a sitting
duck straight line) and scoot.

In a 109F or G-2 you can turn with or outturn him at under 250kph and maybe get enough margin
to dive and hide way down low. Big _maybe_ there but if you can get him to lose sight of you
and not show up where he expects then maybe being a dot on the trees will keep you that way.

You can try to get him to to pass you in a hard turn, by sideslipping or barrel rolling, which
makes you pretty hard to hit and if he doesn't notice and react quickly then you may get a shot
when he goes by.

Mostly though you're asking what to do after against an even less able pilot you have pretty
much lost. Only thing worse is if he's bouncing you and already got first shots in. All in
all it's much better not getting cornered than practicing what to do when you're cornered.

And the best advice is don't go out late for chicken without some backup to cover ya.

idonno
07-27-2008, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by K_Freddie:LA-v-FW190 (51MB) (http://htttp://www.vanjast.com/IL2Movies/UsAndThem.avi)

Check out the DF section where the LA holds all the cards, but still gets taken out.

That track is a bit misleading. The La was poorly flown. The pilot made no use of it's superior turning ability. At first I thought it must be an AI, but I didn't see the telltale rudder deflection.


Feathered_IV, you're probably right that there are none that can dominate in every aspect, but sometimes the inferior airplane's advantages are practically negligible and easily overcome by any opponent with a reasonable level of skill, and this is verified by that fact that when people ask a question like the one Afromike1 asks, the general consensus is to get above the enemy and/or get help.

Bremspropeller
07-27-2008, 11:09 AM
First off, you should recognize that fighting in-game has not too much to do with fighting IRL.

Your goal should be surviving the mission (to gain expertise and experience, just like IRL), before achieving the goal and before shooting somebody down.

That behavior is really important as it teaches you not to be greedy and engage at all coste (evon though all stakes might be lost anyway..).

A very im portant rule is ONLY ENGAGE WHEN BEING IN ADVANTAGEOUS POSITION - that is your most important rule of thumb.

An advantageous position may be superior altitude, higher speed (or an aircraft that can outrace the opponent) or a moment of surprise.

Keep your attack simple. Attack, back off and LEAVE THE SCENE. What sounds silly at first WILL save your life.
Fiddling around and letting yourself being sukked into a furball will only get some newbie a kill of opportunity - it's always the guy you don't see, that kills you!

As said above, make one attack and try to leave the scene, if neccessary, regroup and attack again. That prevents the enemy from getting fighter-cover or help from teammates.
Your victim might get away this time, but trust me, your shooting WILL improve and so will your ability to kill on one pass!

Your aim (playing online) should not be the guy with the most kills, but being the guy with the least deaths.
When playing with a wingman, his safety should be avove all other values.
Same applies for the leader when you're the wingman.

Tempmtation is high to leave the formation and go on fighting on your own, but, trust me, the more team-oriented you "play" gets, the mor success will come.


Generally speaking, that style of fighting puts a lot off the performance-differences of different aircraft.
A dumpweeed in a superrior plane is still a dumpweeed - just because he's fecking up at higher speed doesn't neglect the fact that he's fecking up.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

idonno
07-27-2008, 11:18 AM
Bremspropeller you are a virtual fighter pilot after my own heart! ~S~

You wouldn't be looking for a squad, would you?

Bremspropeller
07-27-2008, 12:09 PM
I'm sorry to say no, but thanks for the offer! http://media.ubi.com/us/forum_images/gf-glomp.gif

S!

KrashanTopolova
07-27-2008, 09:01 PM
japanese pilots would almost predictably invert and dive away from an aircraft on its six (given enough height). They were gone before you could blink (apparently). This was because of two things: 1. the pilot behind followed the sensible rule of getting as close as you can before firing and 2. the Japanese pilots knew inside out what their aircraft could and could not do. It seems in your case that the aircraft behind you has opened fire at long to medium range...and consequently has inadvertently warned you...you have reacted (sometimes inappropriately) and he/she is still far enough behind you that he/she can still follow your next move.
Remember this thing: Aces can get into the firing range and out of it in a blink of an eye. This is the real advantage (indeed the object) of tactics such as gaining height and diving on the target (BnZ) or in a turning fight (TnB). All talk of E and climb rate is superfluous because a pilot using BnZ can be shot down in the same time frame as he/she was expecting to have on the lower altitude aircraft. The dive ability was the factor that saved a pilot's neck or got the 'kill' rather than climb speed and energy required to regain height quickly. so my friend, if you're a beginner invert and dive for starters then improvise then realise that you can once again rise when you've been blasted so many times that what doesn't matter is size (no poor poetry intended).
There are advanced techniques to regain the 'six' position but it has to be so quick as to be almost simultaneous. At starting level you have to get to know the BF109 better (a hint: the Japanese Aces were fond of bringing their Zero in and out of a skid - but don't tell anyone else).

K_Freddie
07-28-2008, 05:18 AM
Originally posted by idonno:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K_Freddie:LA-v-FW190 (51MB) (http://htttp://www.vanjast.com/IL2Movies/UsAndThem.avi)

Check out the DF section where the LA holds all the cards, but still gets taken out.

That track is a bit misleading. The La was poorly flown. The pilot made no use of it's superior turning ability. At first I thought it must be an AI, but I didn't see the telltale rudder deflection.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
On the contrary, that LA pilot will take out about 90% of you with ease in any situation.
His mastery of tactics and use of a/c abilities will nab you in the end, BUT he was foiled by a little trickery on my part.

So for the new guys, you can 'nab' the better plane if you use your 'noggin'
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

SterlingX
07-28-2008, 01:07 PM
Lots of things can work in such cases, actually. You can out-barell-roll a better plane on your six or turn fight with combat flaps at reduced throttle, for instance.