PDA

View Full Version : How do we keep online fighting at High altitude?



Grey_Mouser67
09-25-2005, 03:06 PM
Thinking about how much online play is at low altitude and thinking on how to change that;

Airstarts at high altitude for starters...20-30K but more importantly there needs to be a way for a given team to acheive its goals from that altitude so as to keep the fight high...

So we need flyable heavies and the ability to mark sections of cities as targets and define them in a way so as to set and acheive mission goals....

I'd think most of this would be fairly easy except for the flyable bomber thing....this is where I'd love to see a compromise made...give me a B-17 or B-24 with a pilot and a bombadier and but the other stations in later, if at all. Prioritize the gunner stations like tailgunner station gets #1 priority followed by top turret, bottom turret, nose gunners and waiste gunners in that order.

Would make for an interesting battle and change some of the tactics and perception of modelling in this I would think.

ECV56_Rolf
09-25-2005, 03:13 PM
There will be the posibility to add bots on Dogfight servers, maybe with them some high altitude fighting could happen in scripted servers.

Tachyon1000
09-25-2005, 03:19 PM
Air Starts and co-op missions as opposed to ground starts and dogfight servers. Viola!!

FOE_Pappy
09-25-2005, 03:27 PM
S! Set a hard deck for yourself, go up and make contrails, they will come.

skyiced
09-25-2005, 05:36 PM
I made this simple diagram based on my observations. About the last post. Make contrails in a battle that will most likely take place at 4,000m and your being totally useless to your team.

Where as in example. if the high alt of a map is 5500m, medium is 2500m, and low is 500m. A player is likely to only dive down one level for a boom and zoom attack. a low level player is not really under threat of a high level fighter. so flying at an ultra high 12,000 meters your wasting your time. out of visual range you not only wont see any of the battle you will be of no help to your pals.

How many people have to die before you relize your mistake? Stay with the battle, and place bases at distances to control the battle. And remember, people don't dont like to fly for 20 minutes before they see an enemy.
http://zenisle.com/keep/il2/il2d1.gif

Jetbuff
09-25-2005, 05:46 PM
Speaking from experience, only one thing promotes high altitude fights; Fear of death. i.e., play a DiD campaign and you'll be surprised how often people grab altitude and fly as teams.

Grey_Mouser67
09-25-2005, 05:47 PM
Many players won't take the time to climb and there are no objectives to keep them high...

I think the airstart is only half the problem, because any sign of trouble or any low altitude tracers and many will go barreling down, once again forcing combat at low altitude.

The reason the European air war was fought primarily over 20K was because of the bombers...without them, there was no high altitude air war.

In order to keep the fight high, there must be high altitude objectives like B-17's and the bombers must be able to inflict enough damage from high altitude so as to incent the enemy to stay high and engage...if a Fw bails out for the ground then he can look forward to a B-24 dropping 8,000 pounds of ordinance on his base or the property under his protection.

I'm speaking conceptually, but at the moment..there is no reason for combat to stay high...sometimes it gets high, but often is only from a few brave pilots with oodles of patience.

Daiichidoku
09-25-2005, 08:22 PM
this thread really belongs in GD, but...

at least one idea is to have bad weather....VERY bad weather from the deck up to at least a few thousand meters...this will ensure most fighting takes place at elast above that altitude...makes for good refuge from death, as well....but will more or less ensure that any actual fighting will be at least a few thousand meters up, instead of the seemingly endless cavalcade of La7/yak3 tnb deck fighting

and even adds immersion, if you will...you see, sometimes, during 39-45, there were actually days that saw bad weather in lower altitudes, forcing ATA combat to take place at more than 50 ft off ground....i know it sounds totally incredible, but its true! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

FritzGryphon
09-25-2005, 08:41 PM
Have 20mm flak covering the entire map.

Simple http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

p1ngu666
09-25-2005, 08:47 PM
fly coops/develop a system that injects crack when someone climbs, more crack the higher the alt.

Codex1971
09-26-2005, 02:04 AM
Originally posted by Jetbuff:
Speaking from experience, only one thing promotes high altitude fights; Fear of death. i.e., play a DiD campaign and you'll be surprised how often people grab altitude and fly as teams.

Jetbuff is right...WarClouds, Greatergreen and other similar servers are missing the fear factor, I regard them as deathmatch servers really. Don't get me wrong they are allot of fun and I enjoy them greatly. But servers such as VOW2 or Czeckwar have no refly option so once your dead, thats it, it's game over. So dog fights usually start at 4000m and above even in 41' planesets.

I would like to see a server that generates campaign missions every hour or so using DCG, the missions will have a set plane set for the campaign and any un-used slots get filled with AI. When the mission is over results get posted..."well they do that already in VOW2 and Czechwar" I hear you say...well my twist is that the missions will run regardless if real pilots or AI fill the slots, that way no two missions are the same and there's no waiting for 20-30 minutes for missions to fill up.

Monson74
09-26-2005, 02:43 AM
Deathkick=1 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

FritzGryphon
09-26-2005, 02:44 AM
A giant wall on the front line, some 7000m tall.

A plague of bees below 5000m.

Replace the planes with boats, and the sea is 10km deep.

No gravity.

LeOs.K_Walstein
09-26-2005, 05:02 AM
Originally posted by Codex1971:

I would like to see a server that generates campaign missions every hour or so using DCG, the missions will have a set plane set for the campaign and any un-used slots get filled with AI. When the mission is over results get posted..."well they do that already in VOW2 and Czechwar" I hear you say...well my twist is that the missions will run regardless if real pilots or AI fill the slots, that way no two missions are the same and there's no waiting for 20-30 minutes for missions to fill up.


I think that is a good one!

Wallstein

MEGILE
09-26-2005, 06:15 AM
You can't keep online fighting at high altitude.

People will fight at high altitude if they want to.
If they are not fighting at high altitude, have you considerd maybe they don't actually want to?
Gimmicks and other things to force people to fly at high altitude don't always go down too well.
Even on servers with death kick, most of the fighting does not take place at anywhere near 30,000Ft.
If you like flying at high altitude, and want to fly with others who do, make a highaltitude air start coop as already suggested.

I'm not surprised people don't fly up there often, high altitude in this sim leaves much to be desired.

ElAurens
09-26-2005, 06:58 AM
Even in real life WW2 fighter to fighter encounters, a great many ended up fighting it out at low level, even after starting at bomber escort altitudes. Why? Energy loss. These are piston engined aircraft designed 60+ years ago. They do not retain energy like modern jets do, or the way our poorly modeled aircraft in the sim do.

Most of the late war planes in this sim climb too well and retain energy far too well. All done in the name of gameplay. Honestly, some of the aircraft in this sim behave more like jets. Be sure.

stubby
09-26-2005, 09:16 AM
online play is about points, getting kills and enjoying the adraline rush. this means low down dog fightin'. what is the most popular form of online play? dogfight servers. online wars with fancy objectives and strategy, they only attract a small fraction of online flyers. Why? most folks have limited amount of time they can fly and they don't want to spend it forming up in coop rooms, planning, talking and then flying to 20k+ feet only to get popped by a magic bb or radar guided flak. as much as folks want to simulate the real wester front air war, it won't happened. now the kind of folks that are most likely to engage in this type of air battle are the offliners. those are the types that are more inclined about things like surviving and immersion. air quake for them is boring.

Von_Rat
09-26-2005, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by Grey_Mouser67:
Thinking about how much online play is at low altitude and thinking on how to change that;

Airstarts at high altitude for starters...20-30K but more importantly there needs to be a way for a given team to acheive its goals from that altitude so as to keep the fight high...

So we need flyable heavies and the ability to mark sections of cities as targets and define them in a way so as to set and acheive mission goals....

I'd think most of this would be fairly easy except for the flyable bomber thing....this is where I'd love to see a compromise made...give me a B-17 or B-24 with a pilot and a bombadier and but the other stations in later, if at all. Prioritize the gunner stations like tailgunner station gets #1 priority followed by top turret, bottom turret, nose gunners and waiste gunners in that order.

Would make for an interesting battle and change some of the tactics and perception of modelling in this I would think.

I like this idea.

but the naysayers do have one point, hi alt in this game does leave alot to be desired.

heck other than the ta152, german planes are useless at 10k meters.

effte
09-26-2005, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by ElAurens:
Even in real life WW2 fighter to fighter encounters, a great many ended up fighting it out at low level, even after starting at bomber escort altitudes. Why? Energy loss. These are piston engined aircraft designed 60+ years ago. They do not retain energy like modern jets do, or the way our poorly modeled aircraft in the sim do.

Only, in real life there was an objective for both sided. Escort the bombers or stop the bombers.

Once the interceptors were no longer a threat to the bombers, the escorts would bug out as soon as they could to get back to the bombers.

Once the interceptors could no longer get at the bombers, they would bug out as soon as they could to get back on the ground, rearm and refuel and be ready for the next wave.

Fighter sweeps would stick with the interceptors they managed to lure up a bit longer, knowing that the interceptors were burning up fuel and being forced down €" meaning they wouldn€t be there to meet the bombers.

You€d also have other missions. Recon, bomb damage asessment, support of ground offensives, battlefield interdiction, counter-air attacks on enemy airfields (after forcing the aircraft based there to land and refuel). Lots of things to do in the air. Unfortunately, this simulator provides a poor framework for recreating any of the aerial fighting which was going on, except for providing simulated versions of the machines used.


Originally posted by stubby:
online play is about points, getting kills and enjoying the adraline rush.

The Most Blatant Generalisation of the Week award has found a home. That is what it is about for you. It could be argued that if that€s all you want to get out of it, why don€t go play Quake. I won€t argue that though, you are free to enjoy the simulator your way. That does not give you the right, however, to claim it is the only way the simulator can be enjoyed.


as much as folks want to simulate the real wester front air war, it won't happened. now the kind of folks that are most likely to engage in this type of air battle are the offliners. those are the types that are more inclined about things like surviving and immersion. air quake for them is boring.

And if you stop to think about it instead: Why do you think the people who enjoy recreating the aerial battles of WWII in Il-2 stay offline, while there are multiplayer flight sims in which these scenarios attract lots of pilots? Perhaps that is since Il-2 currently lacks the framework to become much more than air quake? Why do you think it is a bad idea to discuss how Il-2 could be made into something which will support something more than air quake?



If we want something more than air quake, there has to be a reward to avoiding air quake. There has to be an objective to staying up high. You could use heavy flak of both sides scattered all over the map, weather, an enforced hard deck or other artificial means of forcing the battle up high... or you could make sure to get an actual objective in there: Bombers.

I don€t think many people will enjoy flying bombers in straight lines... but why not have AI bombers? Picture this scenario: First, a stream of blue AI bombers fly across the map, west to east. The blue side are tasked with protecting the bomber stream and the red with stopping them. Once all the bombers reach the destination (target, other side of the map, return to the west, whatever) or are shot down, the sides are changed and there€s a red bomber stream coming. Repeat if so wished. The side to have the most bombers on target/through the sector in the end win. No or few points for downing enemy fighters, big points for killing enemy bombers or for friendly bombers making it.

In the beginning, things would get dragged down... and a few smart players would be up there having a field day with the bombers, getting the high scores and winning the battle for their side. Pretty soon, most people would start thinking like fighter pilots instead of air quakers and realize that while the fight may be going lower, the battle is won or lost up high.

Cheers,
Fred

Jetbuff
09-26-2005, 05:18 PM
Let's put it this way. In the last couple of sessions in CoT (a DiD DCG dogfight war) we were in He-111's at 8000m AND we got intercepted by Spits and P-47's flying at 9000m! Fortunately, our escort, also at 9000m drove them off.

LEXX_Luthor
09-26-2005, 05:28 PM
effte, you just backed up stubby...

stubby::
online play is about points, getting kills and enjoying the adraline rush. effte::
Perhaps that is since Il-2 <span class="ev_code_yellow">currently lacks</span> the framework to become much more than air quake? Why do you think it is a bad idea to discuss how Il-2 could be made into something which will support <span class="ev_code_yellow">something</span> more than air quake? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


Here is one idea: Although too late for FB/PF, to reward flying the Online bombers in BoB And Beyond, Oleg should let bomber pilots be able to switch to another AI bomber whenever they wish, unless they get pilot killed -- that exception would add some fear. When a bomber pilot is going down, he/she can switch to another of the same bomber type in the AI formation that the player is flying with (formation defined by mission creators in FMB And Beyond).

My other idea for attracting bomber pilots to the Online War is to make the Online dogfight aces pay Double, paying the bomber pilots' Monthly Fee for them. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif But this idea assumes a player signs up to fly a specific plane or plane type, so this may not work too well.

effte
09-27-2005, 02:03 PM
Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
effte, you just backed up stubby...

That's an interesting way of reading. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Yes, currently, Il-2 lends itself best to air quake. Online play, however, is not Il-2 in it's current incarnation only. Online play is much more, only that Il-2 needs to be shoehorned into something it by design isn't to do anything significantly above and beyond air quake.

With your way of reading, stating that it is cold on antarctica is agreeing with those saying that the global warming theory is wrong. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

LEXX_Luthor
09-27-2005, 04:36 PM
stubby is using present tense, as you do.

stubby: online play is <ie..."currently"> about points,

effte: since Il-2 currently <ie..."is"> lacks


Good Topic though ~> http://www.iceagenow.com/Ocean_Warming.htm

Vrabac
09-27-2005, 05:03 PM
Problem isn't in enforcing people to do this or that, problem is in people wanting to do certain things. Most people really seem to want to dogfight on 50m with Jak3P and La7 (not "normal" one, but the one with 3x20mm). So you have servers that fulfill their needs. Of course, flying Jak3p and La7 3x20 usually goes in package with icons and no cockpit so that the quakers aren't distracted by such things as plane ID (since both sides fly Jak3P and La7 3x20) or certain planes' visibility. And it's fine. I often go there, take FW190 and get my *** kicked by various Jak3/La7 aces, and it's fun (especially when one of those aces come in front of my cockpitless 190 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif). But most of the times I want to have some sort of hybrid between pure fun and role-playing a WW2 pilot. And than you have virtual wars. Yes, you can actually click on that "general room" button and you see many new rooms, and there are often other sort of people there than Jak3P/La7 3x20 super duper aces. Still a fair shair of kamikaze players, but much dufferent than dogs.

Than you have things like already mentioned CoT, or ADW. There it was exactly as I think it should be: Fights taking place from 0m to 9000m, flaktraps, CAPs, human bomber runs etc. So instead of asking enforements and artificial awards for staying high, just pick your missions better. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I like the bomber stream idea tough. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

p1ngu666
09-27-2005, 05:04 PM
von_rat, mostly the normal german planes wherent omg amazing at high alt

i think they mostly relied on Gm-1 for extreme high alt ops, ta152 and ju86p, tho ta152 has gm~1.

the german planes peaked at medium to lower end of high alt.

p1ngu666
09-27-2005, 05:21 PM
vrabac, your right, in a dogfight server there isnt a great reason to fly high. if theres ground targets ull get jabo fliers, so they will be low.

irl pilots didnt love high alt stuff, its very tiring to fly high...

Von_Rat
09-27-2005, 10:03 PM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
von_rat, mostly the normal german planes wherent omg amazing at high alt

i think they mostly relied on Gm-1 for extreme high alt ops, ta152 and ju86p, tho ta152 has gm~1.

the german planes peaked at medium to lower end of high alt.

b17s routinly flew at 10k meters, go ahead and take a me109 or fw that hi, or should i say try to.

even if you can make it to 10k, you cant do anything but struggle to mantain hieght, much less attack anything.

im not asking for amazing, im asking that if we get bombers flying at 10k like original poster wanted, it'd be nice if germans acttually had more than one type of plane that could fight up there.

having a late gm1 me109 would be nice, they had them, but i'd have to look up designation.

TooCooL34
09-27-2005, 10:24 PM
The dilemma is.. there's no advantage in high alt bombging with bomber like B-25.

1) It would be good DF server have ability to give bomber pilot 2 or more bombers which forms a formation.
2) High alt precision bombing should be easier, thou it could be less realistic. At least give'em an option.
3) like 2), long range targe id should be easier. bombers tend to go low cause he doesn't have info about target state and visual cue.

stubby
09-28-2005, 07:45 AM
Originally posted by effte:
The Most Blatant Generalisation of the Week award has found a home. That is what it is about for you. It could be argued that if that€s all you want to get out of it, why don€t go play Quake.

I'm just basing my 'blatant generalization' on hunrdeds and hundreds of hours playing at HL. The most used button during a df is the 's' key. Dedicated servers use fancy parsers to throw up stats that rank pilots based on air kills. The most worthy stat should be survival % or RTB rate but they ain't. It's all about kills that's why player scores don't get reset upon death. Can you imagine the out cry if 1C made that fundamental change to online stat keeping?



Originally posted by effte:
Why do you think it is a bad idea to discuss how Il-2 could be made into something which will support something more than air quake?

I don't think it's a bad idea to discuss how Il2 can be made into something more than just air quake but there's already plenty of robust 3rd party applications already out there that add huge depth and immersion to il2 coops. Stuff like DCG, SE and BadC. All killer applications but there's still one major issue. Online numbers are tiny compared to the overall Il2 gaming universe. On any given night, HL may have at most 300 flyers between 8pm to 12pm EST. Of those flyers, I would say 90% are only interested in dogfighting. The rest of them play stuff like COT, Czech War or FS. What does that tell me? It tells me that most folks just want to get it on and quake it. Nothing wrong with that. Personally, I prefer coops but getting coops set up and flown in a timely manner on HL is a joke. Most coops takes forever to launch due to restarts, tech gliches, etc.. Thus the main reason for df popularity. I just think it's a pipe dream and waste of resources to make 1C develop online content to 'replicate' the real war. I would rather have them focus on a robust dynamic campaign system like the one used in BOBII or F4. Just make it both online and offline. The market of online flyers will dictate how things happen in places like HL.

TgD Thunderbolt56
09-28-2005, 08:03 AM
Originally posted by Jetbuff:
Let's put it this way. In the last couple of sessions in CoT (a DiD DCG dogfight war) we were in He-111's at 8000m AND we got intercepted by Spits and P-47's flying at 9000m! Fortunately, our escort, also at 9000m drove them off.

In the Zekes-vs-Wildcats server there are frequently tight formations of B-25's or bettys cruising at 15,000ft (the teamwork factor there is remarkable at times) and if you want any engagements you need to get up there with them.

4-6 P40's slashing at a tight formation of bettys all the while dodging those haxor gunners with 20mm's is enough to make you come back for more.

There might be 20 people on the server and 8 of the 10 blues will be flying bombers up high. Sometimes the other 2 will be with them flying escort, thus ANY contact will have to be up there with them.

The high altitude engagements are dictated by the people on the server. If there are ground targets being hit by Vals or Sturmos the encounters will obviously be lower.

Map design, planeset selection, server settings, satisfying victory parameters and pilot motivation are the only things that can encourage high altitude fighting and even then some guys just won't climb. You'll see them join and 5 minutes later you'll see them leave. They probably flew around for a few minutes and not seeing anything decided to go elsewhere to look for some "low-hanging fruit".


TB

F19_Ob
09-28-2005, 08:29 AM
High is fun and the planes act differently up there.

At one server I climbed with a hurricane to 7000m after a 109 wich prefered to run away (he probably though I was a a spit because I was the only one in a hurricane) instead of staying. Our boys got him at lower altitude a moment later though.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
Another time I flew my Hurricane into a gaggle of 109's at 5000m on GG. Perhaps they were surprised to be attacked on that altitude because I bounced one of them and somehow managed to keep away from the others and went home and landed.

more highaltitude missions sure would be fun. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Von_Rat
09-28-2005, 11:22 AM
stubby wrote

I'm just basing my 'blatant generalization' on hunrdeds and hundreds of hours playing at HL. The most used button during a df is the 's' key. Dedicated servers use fancy parsers to throw up stats that rank pilots based on air kills. The most worthy stat should be survival % or RTB rate but they ain't. It's all about kills that's why player scores don't get reset upon death. Can you imagine the out cry if 1C made that fundamental change to online stat keeping?

cough,,,, warclouds is one of the most popular df servers.
its top ten ranking is highest current kill streak.

if you die you start over

SeaFireLIV
09-28-2005, 12:17 PM
Others have probably said this, but I can`t see anything forcing anyone to stay high by outside means and it would be wrong too imho.

If the scenario warrants it, if the situation needs it and if the pilots are wise then they`ll go high. But this would suit some fighters better than others. Only the fear of virtual death should determine whether you stay high or not.

You cannot artificially force it and have a realistic game.

Scen
09-28-2005, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by TgD Thunderbolt56:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jetbuff:
Let's put it this way. In the last couple of sessions in CoT (a DiD DCG dogfight war) we were in He-111's at 8000m AND we got intercepted by Spits and P-47's flying at 9000m! Fortunately, our escort, also at 9000m drove them off.

In the Zekes-vs-Wildcats server there are frequently tight formations of B-25's or bettys cruising at 15,000ft (the teamwork factor there is remarkable at times) and if you want any engagements you need to get up there with them.

4-6 P40's slashing at a tight formation of bettys all the while dodging those haxor gunners with 20mm's is enough to make you come back for more.

There might be 20 people on the server and 8 of the 10 blues will be flying bombers up high. Sometimes the other 2 will be with them flying escort, thus ANY contact will have to be up there with them.

The high altitude engagements are dictated by the people on the server. If there are ground targets being hit by Vals or Sturmos the encounters will obviously be lower.

Map design, planeset selection, server settings, satisfying victory parameters and pilot motivation are the only things that can encourage high altitude fighting and even then some guys just won't climb. You'll see them join and 5 minutes later you'll see them leave. They probably flew around for a few minutes and not seeing anything decided to go elsewhere to look for some "low-hanging fruit".


TB </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep A very good example indeed. The reason why that happens is ChicagoChad makes it happen. He's usually the guy in the bombers and putting together the formation heading off to the target.

I agree totally that it really makes for a whole new game. Amazing actually the immersion factor goes way up when your trying to protect the formation or stay in the formation.

I flew bombers once and it was incredible. A formation of 6 of us hammering the city while flak and fighters all around us. We didn't survive but it was really fun.

The key is getting the people organized to do it. Most guys are interested in their Gunstats and Kills to be bothered with bombing.

Scen

AKA Capt Stubing

p1ngu666
09-28-2005, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:
von_rat, mostly the normal german planes wherent omg amazing at high alt

i think they mostly relied on Gm-1 for extreme high alt ops, ta152 and ju86p, tho ta152 has gm~1.

the german planes peaked at medium to lower end of high alt.

b17s routinly flew at 10k meters, go ahead and take a me109 or fw that hi, or should i say try to.

even if you can make it to 10k, you cant do anything but struggle to mantain hieght, much less attack anything.

im not asking for amazing, im asking that if we get bombers flying at 10k like original poster wanted, it'd be nice if germans acttually had more than one type of plane that could fight up there.

having a late gm1 me109 would be nice, they had them, but i'd have to look up designation. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

b17s didnt fly that high operationaly iirec,, maybe with the raf who had earlier lighter, not weighed down with 50cal versions.

but up high, the sun is blazing down on u, theres much less atmosphere to protect u, so itll dazzle u. your cold, really cold.

the gases in your body expand aswell...

simple things like breathing, well they go in reverse, normaly u use your muscles to draw in air, and relax to let out the air.
pressure breathing the air is forces into u, so u must relax your lungs, but then u must force the air out...

theres some good bits about it in clostermans book aswell

HellToupee
09-29-2005, 06:14 AM
I rember when i played aces high there was high alt fighting, usually because we could take a whole formation of bombers(3 per person to) and those bombers would laywaste to an entire airfield so when we got their if we had been spotted there was always a lot of bogies their to try and stop us.

Now in il2 all we have up at those heights is some stat monkeys too afriad to commit to anything lest they lose streak and sky so dark you cant see anything against it might as well be night. You would as ppl have said to get ppl up there need a reason, b17s b25s lancs with grandslams(i can dream) and probly something to bomb like a city or just blues airfield cant hit much else that high.

Highish alt level bombing with b25 he111 etc is also not terribly viable, since targets are often difficult to spot in time to line up, it takes quite a bit of time to get the bomb run perfect specially in the bombers with out the 2000kg nukes where only a perfect drop will yeild results.

What il2 also lacks is a sense of purpose, in aces high you moved the front foward by taking an airfield by destroying it then landing troops it was persistant, in il2 map changes no one takes any notice of the result just admires their stats.

WOLFMondo
09-29-2005, 06:49 AM
You can make out ground targets from miles away in the bomb sight. Sorry, I do not buy high level bombing in B25's or He111's is not viable, it is viable and it does work. But it depends on the players in the server, if they want to do that or not.

The only problem with it is getting to altitude. It takes ages and ages to get that high.

p1ngu666
09-29-2005, 07:19 AM
depends on the target, how easy it is to get lined up, and your view settings aswell.

also bombers haveto climb up like the fighters, sharx wont put in a bases for bombers with airstart http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

roc in a bomber with bombs and 50% fuel is funnily enuff, p1ss poor

airstart is 1,200metres or so, so u could raise the level and frequency with bombers with a airstart base...

HellToupee
09-29-2005, 08:01 AM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
You can make out ground targets from miles away in the bomb sight. Sorry, I do not buy high level bombing in B25's or He111's is not viable, it is viable and it does work. But it depends on the players in the server, if they want to do that or not.

The only problem with it is getting to altitude. It takes ages and ages to get that high.

Well when flying at 4-6k targets dont appear till im almost over them, unless i know exactly where target is spotting them is useless, some types of targets dont seemto appear unless very close. And while he111 is pretty useful the b25 is not, since the bombs are no more than what fighters can carry and accuracy is lower than what fighters can do, i get more air kills than ground targets in a b25. Also after the first runs you cant tell destroyed from not destroyed targets ive bombed many times in b25 targets that had already been hit, after length of time flying its frustrating.

Also unless at 6k or something fighters will get to you and if on coms ppl usually mention sighting a bomber so its not uncommon for every plane in the area to descend on you like moths to a flame.

There are some targets good for level bombing but after the first run u need to use jabos to find the remainers

p1ngu666
09-29-2005, 09:56 AM
yep the heros of the lw rush to b25s http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

p1ngu666
09-29-2005, 09:56 AM
b25 max speed is at 4.500metres i think aswell..

WOLFMondo
09-30-2005, 01:21 AM
Originally posted by HellToupee:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
You can make out ground targets from miles away in the bomb sight. Sorry, I do not buy high level bombing in B25's or He111's is not viable, it is viable and it does work. But it depends on the players in the server, if they want to do that or not.

The only problem with it is getting to altitude. It takes ages and ages to get that high.

Well when flying at 4-6k targets dont appear till im almost over them, unless i know exactly where target is spotting them is useless, some types of targets dont seemto appear unless very close. And while he111 is pretty useful the b25 is not, since the bombs are no more than what fighters can carry and accuracy is lower than what fighters can do, i get more air kills than ground targets in a b25. Also after the first runs you cant tell destroyed from not destroyed targets ive bombed many times in b25 targets that had already been hit, after length of time flying its frustrating.

Also unless at 6k or something fighters will get to you and if on coms ppl usually mention sighting a bomber so its not uncommon for every plane in the area to descend on you like moths to a flame.

There are some targets good for level bombing but after the first run u need to use jabos to find the remainers </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds like a problem with your PC or IL2 setup and not a problem with IL2:FB/PF.