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View Full Version : Ubi got Machiavelli wrong.....really badly **SPOILERS**



SteelCity999
12-02-2010, 07:18 PM
I don't mind Ubi filling in holes in history for things that we do not know about but they went to far here.

Machiavelli wrote "The Prince" with Cesare as the model. It is pretty well documented that he admired many of the qualities that Cesare possessed and is probably one reason that in all the encounters with Cesare that he actually lived - considering he was representing Florence and Cesare would have loved to have taken that city. Cesare was much more complex than what Ubi portrayed him to be - he was actually preferred by many citizens of the areas he conquered because he actually brought order to their towns and improved upon the tyranny of the uncontrollable Duke of some. I could only laugh when he said he'd right a book about Ezio.....come on Ubi...someone really dropped the ball one this one!!

xsatanicjokerx
12-02-2010, 07:21 PM
Go to north Korea and ask the citizens if they are happy because of the peace and order their leaders have brought them. Most to all of them will say yes. But does that mean they really are happy?

Drakonous505
12-02-2010, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by Kaxen6:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v469/luciferownsme/83af06ab.jpg


This thread made me think of this...

E-Zekiel
12-02-2010, 07:28 PM
Originally posted by xsatanicjokerx:
Go to north Korea and ask the citizens if they are happy because of the peace and order their leaders have brought them. Most to all of them will say yes. But does that mean they really are happy?

I'm sure their happiness is legitimate. That doesn't make pacification of a nation right, regardless.


With that said, that's what the writers are TRYING to say. Even in the game, Machiavelli has admiration for some of his qualities - but again, that's what they're trying to say. He was an insider. You can admire certain qualities of a person but still believe they need to die. Many despots of the past have had uncanny charisma - an admirable quality. They were still bad people that needed to die.

As an aside:

LMFAO at the above post. Hahahaha.

SteelCity999
12-02-2010, 07:29 PM
Originally posted by xsatanicjokerx:
Go to north Korea and ask the citizens if they are happy because of the peace and order their leaders have brought them. Most to all of them will say yes. But does that mean they really are happy?

That's being a bit semantically argumentative.....some of the towns which Cesare captured actually stood up to invaders to protect what they had (to Cesare in power). Happy is all a relative term - when all there was in that era was war and out of control rulers - order (any order) is much welcomed. Besides that was not what this post was about...

Orpheus169
12-02-2010, 07:38 PM
Originally posted by SteelCity999:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by xsatanicjokerx:
Go to north Korea and ask the citizens if they are happy because of the peace and order their leaders have brought them. Most to all of them will say yes. But does that mean they really are happy?

That's being a bit semantically argumentative.....some of the towns which Cesare captured actually stood up to invaders to protect what they had (to Cesare in power). Happy is all a relative term - when all there was in that era was war and out of control rulers - order (any order) is much welcomed. Besides that was not what this post was about... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's a work of historical fiction. It is "inspired by" events that are documented, but may or may not be what actually happened. Did they get him wrong as a component of their storyline? Even if their "knowledgebase" in the description of Machiavelli was, to known history, incorrect, it is ultimately a work of fiction for our amusement and entertainment....

dorido
12-02-2010, 07:40 PM
i think the book that Machiavelli wrote pertaining to ezio is The Art of War, mainly because it talks about "virtu" (which ezio speaks about during the conversation where Machiavelli mentions writing a book)as well as being written by a less cynical and overall less machiavellian Machiavelli (mirroring his change of heart near the end of the game. it was also written in socratic dialogue referencing the way ezio made every conversation with Machiavelli an argument.

Kaxen6
12-02-2010, 08:39 PM
I assumed that Ubi decided to go with the interpretation of The Prince as satire.

As Jean Jacques Rousseau put it:


Machiavelli was a proper man and a good citizen; but, being attached to the court of the Medici, he could not help veiling his love of liberty in the midst of his country's oppression. The choice of his detestable hero, Caesar Borgia, clearly enough shows his hidden aim; and the contradiction between the teaching of the Prince and that of the Discourses on Livy and the History of Florence shows that this profound political thinker has so far been studied only by superficial or corrupt readers. The Court of Rome sternly prohibited his book. I can well believe it; for it is that Court it most clearly portrays.

The satire angle is more amusing in my head that makes Machiavelli Stephen Colbert of the Renaissance or something. *suddenly wonders if Machiavelli has ever mentioned bears*


Though taking the work as Machiavelli being totally serious, The Prince pretty much ends with Machiavelli saying Italy needs someone badass to kick butt take names and make Italy awesome again... Maybe he decided on Assassins in the AC universe. :-/

Machiavelli also wrote that Cesare's dependence on the papacy was a weakness of his rule and it's possible to think someone is good at what they do even if you dislike them.

Though some of the advice in The Prince seems pretty much impossible to follow and most people seem to screw it up if dictators and mafiosi who read The Prince are any indication.

Though I suppose that's why the Medici didn't hire him after exiling him and he wrote it to the Medici.



....Or Ubi just fudged the facts for fun. @_@

SAVMATIC
12-02-2010, 09:53 PM
Originally posted by dorido:
i think the book that Machiavelli wrote pertaining to ezio is The Art of War
ummm, that book was NOT written by machiavelli.
Sun Tzu, a chinese general

Kaxen6
12-02-2010, 10:10 PM
Originally posted by SAVMATIC:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dorido:
i think the book that Machiavelli wrote pertaining to ezio is The Art of War
ummm, that book was NOT written by machiavelli.
Sun Tzu, a chinese general </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Machiavelli wrote one too. There's more than one thing called The Art of War

EmperorxZurg
12-02-2010, 10:19 PM
trololololol that's going to confuse everyone who doesn't know Machiavelli

Xanatos2007
12-03-2010, 12:59 AM
Originally posted by Drakonous505:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kaxen6:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v469/luciferownsme/83af06ab.jpg
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Told you, Kax.

Kaxen6
12-03-2010, 01:23 AM
Originally posted by Xanatos2007:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Drakonous505:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kaxen6:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v469/luciferownsme/83af06ab.jpg
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Told you, Kax. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

...I'm going to have to make a fancier version of this image.

Steelbadger
12-03-2010, 03:30 AM
Machiavelli was a staunch supporter of republican governance.

Though The Prince was written as a kind of guide book for totalitarian leaders it was not written as such because it was the system Machiavelli preferred. He even says that any totalitarian leader should steer away from trying to subjugate republic because, effectively, the people there know better.

Machiavelli may have admired some of Cesare's qualities but this does not compete with the game; when he's giving you the walkround of Rome he appears to talk very positively of Cesare, to the point that Ezio questions it. Machiavelli says 'He knows how to excercise his will, a rare enough quality these days'. He might not like him but he respects someone able to be a powerful and charismatic leader like Cesare is.

Machiavelli's other works are all of a far more republican bent. Machiavelli was a realist (or a cynic, depending on how optimistic you are) and while he preferred a Republic on philosophical ground he had also seen the willingness of people to give up their freedom, and the tendancy of Republics to paralyze themselves as a result of everyone pulling in different directions. He might not agree with totalitarian regimes on point of priniciple, but he wasn;t going to disagree that they're very good at getting stuff done.

AubreyWilborn
12-05-2010, 10:09 AM
Lol...The AC series got alot of things "wrong" with History. But we shouldn't depend on these games for History. If you want to learn History, read a book.

X10J
12-05-2010, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by Kaxen6:
I assumed that Ubi decided to go with the interpretation of The Prince as satire.

As Jean Jacques Rousseau put it:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Machiavelli was a proper man and a good citizen; but, being attached to the court of the Medici, he could not help veiling his love of liberty in the midst of his country's oppression. The choice of his detestable hero, Caesar Borgia, clearly enough shows his hidden aim; and the contradiction between the teaching of the Prince and that of the Discourses on Livy and the History of Florence shows that this profound political thinker has so far been studied only by superficial or corrupt readers. The Court of Rome sternly prohibited his book. I can well believe it; for it is that Court it most clearly portrays.

The satire angle is more amusing in my head that makes Machiavelli Stephen Colbert of the Renaissance or something. *suddenly wonders if Machiavelli has ever mentioned bears*


Though taking the work as Machiavelli being totally serious, The Prince pretty much ends with Machiavelli saying Italy needs someone badass to kick butt take names and make Italy awesome again... Maybe he decided on Assassins in the AC universe. :-/

Machiavelli also wrote that Cesare's dependence on the papacy was a weakness of his rule and it's possible to think someone is good at what they do even if you dislike them.

Though some of the advice in The Prince seems pretty much impossible to follow and most people seem to screw it up if dictators and mafiosi who read The Prince are any indication.

Though I suppose that's why the Medici didn't hire him after exiling him and he wrote it to the Medici.



....Or Ubi just fudged the facts for fun. @_@ </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You know a cartoon involving Machiavelli sternly warning Ezio about the dangers that bears pose to the assassin order would be awesome.