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Stiler
09-28-2006, 03:36 PM
In the X06 video where we see a fairly decent amount of melee combat near the end it looks pretty good imo.

I'm glad that ubisoft is going for a more realistic sense of damage/evasion and such instead of just throwing in some copy of the usual Jedi-knight spamfest style combat or such.

It reminds me a bit of the original prince of persia games where a good solid hit could be devastating to you and you wanted to not get hit in the first place.

I'm wondering though how in depth will it actually be, will we have total control over dodging/parrying attacks and what about grapples or such? Grappling could be a very effective thing to do in melee combat.

SpiderFreak
09-28-2006, 03:48 PM
To me, it looks pretty good, but one thing kind of disappointed me. It looked almost like you just have to wait for an enemy to be close enough (and not attacking you), and you just hit a button, and your character grabs him, stabs him, and he dies. I mean, I'm all for one hit kills, but it's looking more like a one-hit kill PoP or Zelda than realistic combat.

I'm still pretty optimistic, though. Honestly, I don't plan to get into that many fights at all (I'll just be a coward and run), so even if I don't enjoy it that much it shouldn't be a problem.

SF

HorTyS
09-28-2006, 08:06 PM
to me, the combat looks to be focused on counter attacks. you take the defensive stance, wait for an enemy to strike, dodge their attack, and then use that opening to counter attack and take them down. now i've never been in a sword fight, but this sounds like the best way to approach it. from the demo, it looked very intuitive and complimented by some superb animation.

UnaUuru
09-28-2006, 08:18 PM
Basically, I agree with everything Hortys just said. Besides, look on the bright side: No nasty PoP FFFS to get stuck on (though I loved that way of fighting as soon as I managed it successfully).

grizzlebit
09-28-2006, 08:20 PM
Like PoP, the combat will be 'simple' as buttons go, but very fluid and spectacular in timing and visuals. I have no fear of it being boring.

Legendary_111
09-28-2006, 09:10 PM
Originally posted by hortys_99:
to me, the combat looks to be focused on counter attacks. you take the defensive stance, wait for an enemy to strike, dodge their attack, and then use that opening to counter attack and take them down. now i've never been in a sword fight, but this sounds like the best way to approach it. from the demo, it looked very intuitive and complimented by some superb animation.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

HorTyS
09-28-2006, 09:20 PM
i wonder how much the environment will play a role in the combat. i mean, i know that if you're fighting a guy up on a building, i'd always try to get him near the edge and then hit the A button (or X if you're on ps3) and send him over with a kick. but i mean, in PoP, you could jump off the walls and use them to your advantage in the fighting, i hope there is some of that in AC.

one thing that REALLY impressed me in the demo was when Altair chopped down that structure to create a barricade. with everything else in the game, i didn't think they'd have room left for physics and that level of environmental destruction. i just hope there are alot of areas where you can use the environment to your advantage...

JN006
09-28-2006, 10:26 PM
Isn't it somehow very original in way that most videogames aims their fighting strategy on attacking insteed of defending? I think there is something there that deserve a try before starting to get anxious on how fun this might be. I personnaly, as always, respect my fellows members' opinion but I think that this is very original, innovative and more... next-gen in an other way!

My op!
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

SpiderFreak
09-29-2006, 12:00 AM
Well, the thing is, real melee combat is very defensive. I just watched highlights from Peter Molenoux's (sp?) speech on next-gen combat, and some of the things he said were things I've been thinking for a long time.

In melee combat with a sword, you're rarely going to get a hit or get hit yourself. It's all about getting PAST your enemy's defense. I'd say it's about 90% defence, 10% attack, or even less. Most of the time it's just blocking and parrying and stuff like that. For that reason, AC is on the right track, in a way.

The problem for me comes in when it's done in the same way as in PoP. In PoP, I ussually blocked the entire time, circling my opponent until he attacked, then I'd counter-attack. But real combat is absolutely NOTHING like that. You're not just circling your opponent with your sword in a parry stance forever until one of you gives up and tries to attack, only to be blocked and counter-attacked. You're in constant motion, constantly parrying blows and then swinging your own sword.

As an example, take the sword fighting in the movie The Princess Bride. Remember the fight between Wesley and Inigo? Were they swinging their swords around wildly hoping to get a hit? No. Were they circling each other in a parrying stance waiting for one to give in anc attack? No. They were constantly engaged in a flowing string of parries and blocks and attacks. That is what real sword fighting is like.

Now, I'm not trying to say AC's combat sucks because it's not 100% life-like. I'm just saying that, yes, the combat is focused on counter-attacks, but it's done in the same way as PoP and Zelda. You just sit there, waiting for an attack so you can hit a button and get a "cheap" hit on your enemy. Although I'm sure that if you just hold down the block button, eventually someone will do an un-blockable move, it's just not as fluid as I had hoped.

But, again, the combat will probably be fun and I honestly will be fine if it IS just a one-hit kill version of PoP's combat. My main focus will be free-running and killing my target, not getting into fights with guards.

SF

Saudus
09-29-2006, 12:33 AM
You said the most of the stuff that's important in this subject SpiderFreak.
I got a little bit of wisdom in this subject to because..... I do fencing (or however it's spelled).
There are 2 ways of fencing fighting.

1. Be far away drom your oponent and wait for him to make a attack. Many fencers are so fast that you can't react on their moves fast enough.
But they are pros and you might still be able to block and then do a fast counter-attack.
Noobs in fencing often are no problem but they might get a lucky hit..

2. Be on the offence and make small and fast attacks on your opponent. When you after a while see a gap you then have to make a "all or nothing attack". Pros often "pike" you then and you just look stupid. Noobs however get stressed and do errors and almost always get hit.


Thx for giving me a chance to express my knowladge.

HorTyS
09-29-2006, 01:40 AM
spiderfreak, you may want to look at this (http://www.gamevideos.com/video/id/5194)

SpiderFreak
09-29-2006, 01:45 AM
Originally posted by hortys_99:
spiderfreak, you may want to look at this (http://www.gamevideos.com/video/id/5194)

Uh...yeah, that's part of the video I was talking about.

If you notice, on the stair sequence, the combatants weren't just swinging wildly at each other. While they weren't fencing or doing a real form of combat, they were parrying and blocking and attacking fluidly, though the animation was a bit choppy.

SF

HorTyS
09-29-2006, 02:00 AM
Originally posted by SpiderFreak:
Uh...yeah, that's part of the video I was talking about.

If you notice, on the stair sequence, the combatants weren't just swinging wildly at each other. While they weren't fencing or doing a real form of combat, they were parrying and blocking and attacking fluidly, though the animation was a bit choppy.

SF

oh, ok, didn't know if you actually saw the video, or just read where he was talking about the idea, cause i know there have been articles written about that demo. anyways, yeah, i think simple yet deep combat systems are really going to catch on, or at least i hope so.

Stiler
09-29-2006, 02:40 AM
When I mentioned PoP I meant the originals, not the ubisoft PoP games but the older original pop games where you really had to watch yourself in a fight because it was extremely easy to die in them.

Mentioning defense, imo there is only one game that really got it at least semi-right, that is Severance: Blade of Darkness.


Historically speaking, one thing that always annoys me about melee combat in both films and games is the purposely hitting of a sword against another sword.

I mean where it looks like they instead of attacking the person are just on purpose attacking the other persons weapon instead.

If you block with a sword, you would want to never hit your edge against theirs, it's a very easy way to fracture the blade and damage your sword. You want to use the width of a blady to parry and such with, parrying is deflecting the attack into another direction, not outright blocking it like you usually see done.

This is an excellent site to read up on historical combat and techniques/myths/studies and such:

www.thearma.org (http://www.thearma.org)

DarkCrawler90
09-29-2006, 04:40 AM
Next up Ubisoft demonstrated the combat system, proving once and for all that a good defence is a great offence. Altair has a confidence and energy meter that is used to determine how many blocks and counters he can perform. As he blocks, dives out of the way and counters each enemy, the meter depletes and his actions become less effective. The example of this we witnessed had Altair atop of a roof battling it out with a single guard - both men armed. The guard first took a quick swipe, which Altair easily blocked. Then the guard lunged forward and Altair parried his attack, side stepped around him and plunged his sword into the guard's back. Because the system is meant to be realistic, we were reminded that getting into fights with multiple guards is hardly recommended. As Altair's attacks are, for the most part, defence manoeuvres, once his meter is depleted, he's open for attack, and will likely be hacked down by those pursuing him.

I think the fight system sounds and looks neat. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

impeachpedro
09-29-2006, 01:39 PM
well, most of the sword combat in movies, which is what many video games try to simulate, is EXTREMELY fake, compared to real life.

Stage fighting: Its only 3 moves to parry, where you bring the sword above your head, to your front, and to your back.
Just watch Pirates of the Carribean, the attacker actually waits a split second for the defender to bring up their sword to parry before they attack.

The AC video seemed extremely realistic as far as I can imagine into the Middle Ages, very fast paced, and frantic. If you are fighting for your life, your going to have to STRIVE to keep your cool and wait for your opponent to make a bad move when you can go in for the kill.

It looks like they portrayed it to as close as you can get without actually being there yourself, and fighting for your life with a broadsword

SpiderFreak
09-29-2006, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by impeachpedro:
well, most of the sword combat in movies, which is what many video games try to simulate, is EXTREMELY fake, compared to real life.

Stage fighting: Its only 3 moves to parry, where you bring the sword above your head, to your front, and to your back.
Just watch Pirates of the Carribean, the attacker actually waits a split second for the defender to bring up their sword to parry before they attack.

The AC video seemed extremely realistic as far as I can imagine into the Middle Ages, very fast paced, and frantic. If you are fighting for your life, your going to have to STRIVE to keep your cool and wait for your opponent to make a bad move when you can go in for the kill.

It looks like they portrayed it to as close as you can get without actually being there yourself, and fighting for your life with a broadsword

...You think that in real life you circle your opponent with your sword in a blocking position, waiting for your enemy to swing and hit your sword so you can counter-attack?

Of course movie sword fighting isn't real. If they were ACTUALLY fighting, someone would probably end up dead. It's all choreographed (sp?) by a trained swordsman. If in Pirates of the Caribbean they hadn't choreographed any of the fights, not only would they look horrible, but it's possible someone could get hurt.

Also, I'm pretty sure that they were all using longswords. Could be wrong about the guards, but I know Altair uses a longsword.

SF

DarkCrawler90
09-29-2006, 03:28 PM
Just like the wider NPC crowd, you can expect that enemy fighters have the wherewithal to try multiple approaches and tactics. Most enemies will fall into one of three categories: Straight-up fighters will face off head to head with you. Flankers, meanwhile, attempt to encircle you, or even surprise you by leaping from a building interior at your back. Finally, ranged foes will often climb to a rooftop for a clear vantage on you.

Maybe those guys were flankers.

vzerby
09-29-2006, 08:34 PM
In real life attacking frist was usally not a good idea unless you were sure that you could block the counter that would be attempted on you. It's always best to be in a defensive stance since you have more controle over yourself and your enemey when he attacks then he does of anything else.

sCM_redruM
09-30-2006, 10:00 AM
I like the idea of a defensive stance instead of being aggressive...Ubi is not creating the game for swordplay, the point is to escape unscathed...

And if you are unforunate enough to be trapped in a corner like that guy in the demo, I don't think attacking 6 or 7 guards in a circle is your best option...

I feel if you're one on one with some guards, then yes, being aggressive probably would work, but 6 guards, yeah, I'll wait and counter, thanks..

freestylegr
09-30-2006, 04:27 PM
the more realistic it is, the better.