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luftluuver
07-06-2006, 04:26 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qayREUJe65w

danjama
07-06-2006, 04:29 AM
Looks great http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Note the nose-up attitude http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

BGs_Ricky
07-06-2006, 04:47 AM
Great footage, even if I didn't understand a word of it !!

gorillasika
07-06-2006, 05:11 AM
Great find , thanks.
I wonder, where the BAR is http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Pirschjaeger
07-06-2006, 06:02 AM
Originally posted by BGs_Ricky:
Great footage, even if I didn't understand a word of it !!

Translation: "We understand the principles but that Black Forest wood is like nothing we've seen."

Something you gotta wonder about: was it safer to fly a swastika and the iron cross of Russia? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

That pilot didn't seem too worried. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

269GA-Veltro
07-06-2006, 06:12 AM
Originally posted by gorillasika:
Great find , thanks.
I wonder, where the BAR is http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://www.150gct.it/users/150GCT_Veltro/COCKPIT190.jpg

Herr_Falke
07-06-2006, 06:20 AM
Very interesting video, including this part.

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/911_1152188357_190.jpg

Codex1971
07-06-2006, 06:28 AM
Originally posted by danjama:
Looks great http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Note the nose-up attitude http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Yeah at slow speed http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Vrabac
07-06-2006, 06:28 AM
Didn't they say maximum level speed at 0m is 510kmh? And at 5000m 610? Interesting... It crashlanded so they captured it maybe? Or was it said just to make pilots feel better? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Vrabac
07-06-2006, 06:28 AM
Originally posted by Herr_Falke:
Very interesting video, including this part.

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/911_1152188357_190.jpg

I'm sure they used SFS extractor to remove the bar. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Xiolablu3
07-06-2006, 06:52 AM
Excellent find, thankyou!

It still doesnt look like you could do good deflection shots in that still, tho.

Have you seen how low the pilot is in the seat and how high the control colum comes>? Its level with his eyes. Most other fighters its lower than your eyeline, the pilot doesnt sit so 'deep'.

I dont see any bar , but that forward view doesnt look that much different to the game.

The Gunsight is smaller in the game. Maybe if the gunsight was made bigger, and the bar removed it would be pretty accurate, if we are going on just that pic.

Is the 'bar' the rim of the armoured glass>?

Monty_Thrud
07-06-2006, 07:26 AM
Great find... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Can anyone translate Welsh?

I just wish it was a .WMV file for saving

Regarding view, is he sitting on the Parachute when taking this view?

Soviet fighter tactics (http://luthier.stormloader.com/home.html)

JG53Frankyboy
07-06-2006, 07:34 AM
just imagine, move the head a little but right and down to aim straight through the Revi.............
any bar ????? i mean that appears in the sight ?
sure no.

the difference to the game is huge , compare the Fw190A and Ta152H in game. even this little bit less bar helps shooting a lot.


but thats not a dead horse, its a Tyrannosaurusrex we have here !
no chances for IL2 - but perhaps for any Fw190 adon for SoW:BoB we should keep that in mind http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

luftluuver
07-06-2006, 08:05 AM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
just imagine, move the head a little but right and down to aim straight through the Revi.............
any bar ????? i mean that appears in the sight ?
sure no.

the difference to the game is huge , compare the Fw190A and Ta152H in game. even this little bit less bar helps shooting a lot.


but thats not a dead horse, its a Tyrannosaurusrex we have here !
no chances for IL2 - but perhaps for any Fw190 adon for SoW:BoB we should keep that in mind http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif By here you mean in Il-2?

If so it is not a T-rex but a brontasaurus here. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Flying_Nutcase
07-06-2006, 08:10 AM
It's great seeing gems like this. Thx for posting. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Manu-6S
07-06-2006, 08:18 AM
Originally posted by Monty_Thrud:
Great find... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Can anyone translate Welsh?

I just wish it was a .WMV file for saving

Regarding view, is he sitting on the Parachute when taking this view?

Soviet fighter tactics (http://luthier.stormloader.com/home.html)

VideoDownloader is a plugin for Firefox... it allows you to download youtube's videos

justflyin
07-06-2006, 08:23 AM
Somebody quick make a screenshot of that FW in the game and place it under the real one from the video, so we can all point and laugh, please? lol

knightflyte
07-06-2006, 09:22 AM
Is it really necessary to beat a dead horse with an FW cockpit bar?

Brain32
07-06-2006, 09:30 AM
Is it really necessary to beat a dead horse with an FW cockpit bar?
Well I guess it's one thing that really hurts us a lot, we just can't forget about it. FW190 is one of the most flown planes in game and just look at it this way, if I "sit" in that cockpit regulary I see that hidious limitation over and over and over again for years... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

BBB_Hyperion
07-06-2006, 09:36 AM
Originally posted by knightflyte:
Is it really necessary to beat a dead horse with an FW cockpit bar?

YES !

Kocur_
07-06-2006, 09:42 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:

Have you seen how low the pilot is in the seat and how high the control colum comes>? Its level with his eyes. Most other fighters its lower than your eyeline, the pilot doesnt sit so 'deep'.


Its because LW (like say RAF or USAAF) used seat parachutes, i.e. pilot was sitting on the parachute bag put on the pilots's seat, while the Soviet pilot as we see in the movie is wearing back parachute, so he indeed is sitting too low, but a German would sit considerably higher.

On the performance: did you notice how badly prop spinner is messed? I guess this must be the A-4, that had its original prop replaced by one taken from... Ju-87 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

justflyin
07-06-2006, 09:49 AM
Originally posted by knightflyte:
Is it really necessary to beat a dead horse with an FW cockpit bar?

This whole forum is based on beating dead horses. If that picture of an in-game FW is NOT posted, it'll upset the balance of the entire forum!!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

Besides, out of all the things still amiss with this game, that FW bar is one of the bigguns.

JG53Frankyboy
07-06-2006, 09:56 AM
Originally posted by Kocur_:
Its because LW (like say RAF or USAAF) used seat parachutes, i.e. pilot was sitting on the parachute bag put on the pilots's seat, while the Soviet pilot as we see in the movie is wearing back parachute, so he indeed is sitting too low, but a German would sit considerably higher.

..........

http://www.luftwaffepics.com/LCBW/FW190-A3-10.jpg

Kocur_
07-06-2006, 10:06 AM
lol ooops http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

heck I could swear I have seen guys in LW uniforms with parachute bags below their...

EDIT: not so authorative reference, but best quick googling gave: http://www.pbase.com/e5sargemac/image/10305143

JG53Frankyboy
07-06-2006, 10:12 AM
sure, the 190 was just the wrong plane http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://www.warbirdpictures.com/LCBW4/Me109-D0-101s.jpg

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Kocur_
07-06-2006, 10:20 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Uff http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

269GA-Veltro
07-06-2006, 10:23 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

...but we'll never have a "new" FW-190 in FB...in spite of that incredible RUSSIAN movie! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif

badatflyski
07-06-2006, 10:30 AM
sorry to disturb the deadhorse beating...but haven't the 190 pilots had 2 parachutes? the main in the back and the reserve under their..you know what http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif...and by the way, some time ago, Crump from White1Fundation...you know, the guys who rebuild a 190F8 in the states, somewhere in florida (?) and who knows what they are speaking off, shown pictures taken from the cokpit at eyes level where you clearly could see that the "rail" (bar) wasn't present in the field of view.BTW, you can adjust the seat with 9cm in height in the 190, if the russian dworf who tested the plane on this vid had find it and had put a german equipement, maybe his view would be better http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif just my 1 euro-cent opinion...

JuHa-
07-06-2006, 10:41 AM
X:

Have you seen how low the pilot is in the seat and how high the control colum comes>? Its level with his eyes. Most other fighters its lower than your eyeline, the pilot doesnt sit so 'deep'.

Fw190 had an adjustable seat height, which should help with this.

JG53Frankyboy
07-06-2006, 10:42 AM
i read some pilotmemoires , espacially LW ones, they naver talked about a reserve parachute.

so, at least for the LW, i doubt they had one.



about seat, who cares, there is only one headposition where you can aim properly - how ever the pilot is sitting, he has to move his head in this position............

JG53Frankyboy
07-06-2006, 10:44 AM
and btw, if you want download this video check the german ubi forum about this

http://forums-de.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/388104122/m/5261053064

badatflyski
07-06-2006, 10:54 AM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
i read some pilotmemoires , espacially LW ones, they naver talked about a reserve parachute.

so, at least for the LW, i doubt they had one.



maybe you're right, it was just a supposition, anyway, the 190seat(look at the leather cussion):

http://www.white1foundation.org/parts/pilotseat2.jpg

HayateAce
07-06-2006, 11:44 AM
I can translate for all of you.

"Our Yak3 fighter can easily out-turn and out-maneuver this Pig Of 190....once your enemy is defeated, simply shoot the fuel tank located directly below the nazi invader...."

http://www.cals.lib.ar.us/miller/images/YAK_YAK3.jpg

269GA-Veltro
07-06-2006, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
I can translate for all of you.

"Our UFO Oleg fighters can easily out-turn and out-maneuver this porked FW-190...."

I can translate for you too. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

MEGILE
07-06-2006, 11:56 AM
I can't translate, sounds like yabla mamla sasdasdlad ochlenko, ti ruski, da tovorish, kak dela.

JtD
07-06-2006, 12:37 PM
It says it can do a 360 sustained @ 1000m in 23 seconds.

Xiolablu3
07-06-2006, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by JtD:
It says it can do a 360 sustained @ 1000m in 23 seconds.

Thats about 5 secs more than a Spitfire and 3 more thana BF109.

Would be tempted to say the turn in FB is a bit worse than that. purely going on 'feeling' especially at slower speeds.

JtD
07-06-2006, 01:31 PM
The Soviets also tested several La's and they were around 19-20 seconds, 3 seconds better than the FW.

knightflyte
07-06-2006, 02:44 PM
I guess my tongue wasn't far enough into my cheek.....

horse..... FW cockpit bar.....

Oh never mind... if ya gotta explain a joke it prolly wasn't that good. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Waldo.Pepper
07-06-2006, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by Monty_Thrud:
Great find... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Can anyone translate Welsh?

I just wish it was a .WMV file for saving

Regarding view, is he sitting on the Parachute when taking this view?

Soviet fighter tactics (http://luthier.stormloader.com/home.html)

Here you go Monty, not wmv I made it Xvid with Mp3 audio... but I reckon you could change it to wmv with Window Movie Maker.

http://rapidshare.de/files/25138701/Fw-190A4_Captured_by_Soviets.AVI.html

Monty_Thrud
07-06-2006, 04:56 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gifThanks Waldo, much appreciated, it plays fine in WMP...now all i need to do is learn Welsh http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

alert_1
07-07-2006, 01:37 AM
Max. speed 610km/h? It was obviously tested at alt no higher then 4500m...

JG53Harti
07-07-2006, 01:56 AM
Originally posted by Monty_Thrud:
Great find... Thumbs Up

Can anyone translate Welsh?

I just wish it was a .WMV file for saving

Regarding view, is he sitting on the Parachute when taking this view?

Soviet fighter tactics



http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/217...781014064#1781014064 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/2171013064/r/1781014064#1781014064)



JG53Frankyboy Posted 6 Jul, 2006 18:44

and btw, if you want download this video check the german ubi forum about this

http://forums-de.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/388104122/m/5261053064

Monty_Thrud
07-07-2006, 08:53 AM
Ok thanks Harti and Frankyboy but i couldn't get the link to work for me yesterday, works now though... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

JG53_Wotan
07-07-2006, 08:57 AM
I am Helwik the one who put it up on youtube.

It was originally posted on another forum by 'Solas'. I have in .wmv if anyone wants it.

The aircraft is a Fw 190A-4 of 2./JG54 flown by Uffz. Helmut Brandt. Information and pictures can be found in Jagdwaffe: War in Russia pages 212 and 213. There description in that book states that Brandt was forced to ditch on Lake Lagoda after combat with VVS fighters. He was taken as POW. The aircraft lost its prop and several panels from the underside of the aircraft. The Soviets 'repaired it' and got it to 'airworthy' status. You can see in the video the prop hub is dented and it appears that the prop is somewhat out of balance. It wobbles quite a bit.

EDIT 3 to 4

JG53Frankyboy
07-07-2006, 09:19 AM
JG54 or JG51 , but sure not JG53 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

JG53_Wotan
07-07-2006, 11:32 AM
yup 54 it was typo...

MB80
07-07-2006, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by Herr_Falke:
http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/911_1152188357_190.jpg

Here's a sized ingame picture.. So it should look like this:

http://img420.imageshack.us/img420/9058/fw190ingame7wd.jpg

But what's wrong here? Right, the propeller is too small and the struts of the bullet proof glas are too wide. I wouldn't say the REVI is too small because the LW used different Types.. also smaller ones.

HayateAce
07-07-2006, 01:10 PM
I think you're giving way too much credit to the fidelity of the cockpit models. Check out the P47D10 if you want to cry about a poor cockpit that truly hampers the use of an aircraft.

Pity, there could be some great DF scenarios with the Razor Jug vs earlier LW types, as done by Robert S. Johnson.

http://www.billybishop.net/images/rsjhnson.jpg

Xiolablu3
07-07-2006, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by MB80:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Herr_Falke:
http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/911_1152188357_190.jpg

Here's a sized ingame picture.. So it should look like this:

http://img420.imageshack.us/img420/9058/fw190ingame7wd.jpg

But what's wrong here? Right, the propeller is too small and the struts of the bullet proof glas are too wide. I wouldn't say the REVI is too small because the LW used different Types.. also smaller ones. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats actually a very good likeness of the view.

I still say that to use a gunsight that small and low is a bit daft tho, surely the Germans would have realised it hampers deflection shooting? A gunsight like the one in the film would be far more preferable.

Kuna_
07-07-2006, 02:24 PM
The main problem of cockpits in IL-2 isn't need for some micro change like removing that little bar.
The main problem of the cockpit view in IL-2 is FIXED PILOT POSITION.
I myself reckon that FW-190 pilot would have around 12,43% greater chance to hit if the bar get deleted.
And about 80% greater if he can move his body and head inside that cockpit.
Even those with trackIRs have problems but those without trackIRs have major problems... and only GREAT in game experience allows them to play succesfully with others with full gear.

In this regard game has failed a bit... some compromises (read: better all around visibilty) had to be made about this issue.
Since game was devoted to full realism from day 1, only original cockpits (from original pictures) were good enough so we can have great almost ww2 experience.
But sad truth is that *this* does not resemble ww2 experience.

Micro whiners http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif .

MB80
07-07-2006, 03:04 PM
Here's the view possible to have in the game:
http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/427/fw190ingame21st.jpg

Video View (taken and uploaded by Herr_Falke):
http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/911_1152188357_190.jpg

and at least for comparison here's the normal view http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif :
http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/1986/fw190ongamefull5fu.jpg

The main problem is the center view to have the crosshair of the revi in the middle of the screen.. but also the both struts and maybe also the size of the front glass.

Manu-6S
07-07-2006, 03:23 PM
too small gunsight + pilot's a midget http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif

Except these the external modelling is ok...

Should we pass to the rest? (FM, DM) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Come on, nothing will ever change... lets wait the first SOW's addon. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Kocur_
07-07-2006, 03:32 PM
Thats actually a very good likeness of the view.

Too bad there is very little of it in SIGHTING MODE!!!

Brain32
07-07-2006, 07:15 PM
Eh, wishes:
http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/5107/grab00000ec.jpg

Badsight-
07-07-2006, 07:46 PM
Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:
Here you go Monty, not wmv I made it Xvid with Mp3 audio... but I reckon you could change it to wmv with Window Movie Maker.

http://rapidshare.de/files/25138701/Fw-190A4_Captured_by_Soviets.AVI.html thx Waldo.Pepper! - is appreciated

did you ever manage to de-saturate that Shinden video ?

wayno7777
07-07-2006, 10:07 PM
Thanks, great video.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Waldo.Pepper
07-08-2006, 12:04 AM
did you ever manage to de-saturate that Shinden video ?

Now tha Shinden video is in terrible shape. There isn't much that I could do with it.

Original sample...

http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/5254/3236orig6vo.jpg

Afterward...

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/9678/32366jk.jpg

Let me know if you want it.

UberDemon
07-08-2006, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by Vrabac:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Herr_Falke:
Very interesting video, including this part.


I'm sure they used SFS extractor to remove the bar. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sorry... I don't fly the 190 enough to know... what is this speed bar?

joeap
07-08-2006, 09:50 AM
Originally posted by UberDemon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vrabac:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Herr_Falke:
Very interesting video, including this part.


I'm sure they used SFS extractor to remove the bar. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sorry... I don't fly the 190 enough to know... what is this speed bar? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Me neither, but it is the bar on the bottom of the windshield.

VW-IceFire
07-08-2006, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by UberDemon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vrabac:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Herr_Falke:
Very interesting video, including this part.


I'm sure they used SFS extractor to remove the bar. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sorry... I don't fly the 190 enough to know... what is this speed bar? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Deflection shooting is made difficult in the FW190 by a gunsight that is very close to the bottom of the cockpit. ITs been a sore spot in the community for many many years. Most FW190 pilots who fly inside the cockpit (and not wonder woman) tend to spend most of their time shooting at targets they can't see. Some of us are pretty good at it too.

karost
07-08-2006, 03:19 PM
Oh... man
if we have this view with 2xMK108 ... wow it is a perfect killer http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


but the true... I/we have to make ramdom blind sport under nose deflection shooting ...

S!
http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/5107/grab00000ec.jpg

Badsight-
07-08-2006, 04:09 PM
the thing that made it such as issue is :

its such a small compromise for an Aircraft that lacks DF ability compared to almost all other same year fighters

& its a compromise that should have been agreed too because that ^ (the pic above) is how it really was IRL

Von_Rat
07-09-2006, 01:54 AM
yes,,, give us that gunsight, not the obviously wrong one we have now.

the fw190 consortium should give this horse cpr stat.

badatflyski
07-09-2006, 04:49 AM
Originally posted by Badsight-:
& its a compromise that should have been agreed too because that ^ (the pic above) is how it really was IRL
nop, it's not!
here an original cutaway from FW(own by White one Fundation...support them!), had to cut it and even resize it cause it's original size is like 2meters wide or even bigger, anyway:
you have 83cm from the <span class="ev_code_RED">bottom</span> of the cockpit to the field of view of the revi.Then check on the cutaway the line of view of the pilot: the armor glass refraction has been calculated not like in the view we have in the game!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/badatflyski/plan190whiteone.jpg

It's like oleg didn't adjusted the seat for his height when he toke the pictures for the original il2 and also he certainly didn't take his pictures with the canopy closed, that allows you to have a "normal" sitting position in contrary if the canopy is closed that "force" you to have the front bend position (just check the pictures; plane on the ground with canopy open: pilot in normal sitting position and pilothead low, plane in flight, pilot bend forward and pilot head almost touches the canopy)and oleg didn't take in account the refraction of the armored glass!

luftluuver
07-09-2006, 05:41 AM
here an original cutaway from FW(own by White one Fundation...support them!),

That is from the drawings by A L Bentley. It is not a Fw drawing though Bentley used Fw documentation to draft the drawings. It is not a White One Foundation drawing either.

One can order the Fw190 drawings, plus many others, from http://www.albentley-drawings.com/main.htm

badatflyski
07-09-2006, 06:19 AM
yeah-yeah, you know certainly better what i do have in my possesion http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

http://www.white1foundation.org/giftshop/product_info.p...th=22&products_id=48 (http://www.white1foundation.org/giftshop/product_info.php?cPath=22&products_id=48)

the original size is 7200*8400 pixels here it is 10% resized:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/badatflyski/plan190whiteone2.jpg

luftluuver
07-09-2006, 06:55 AM
Originally posted by badatflyski:
yeah-yeah, you know certainly better what i do have in my possesion http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

the original size is 7200*8400 pixels here it is 10% resized:

Well I certainly do know, for here is the Bentley drawings,

http://www.albentley-drawings.com/images/FW190A59FG.Fuse%20Geom.jpg

http://www.albentley-drawings.com/images/FW190A59FG.Wing%20Geom.jpg

But then if you are too lazy to check out the link posted....... Oh well. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Btw, the drawing you posted is from a collection of a/c scale drawings from the book Aircraft Archive, Classics of WW2 ISBN 0-85242-985-1.

Looks like White One scanned the drawings and is making a profit from them. That is against the law. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

badatflyski
07-09-2006, 07:38 AM
the A L Bentley drawings are well known to me, his site is in my favorites http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif, anyway if you say that those drawings are from Aircraft Archive, Classics of WW2 ISBN 0-85242-985-1, one thing bother me: how can you insert in a book, drawings that are bigger than 1meter? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif
anyway, even if White1 is using them, it's not for profit, but for a non lucrative good cause: rebuilding a historical airplane!a piece of history! i really doubt this people are making benefits, they look more like passionate people that put some of their own money in this project http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

anyway,back to topic http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif : in conclusion: pilot sitting too low and refraction not calculated =wrong view in the game http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif...like i said before, it looks to me that the view we have is the view you obtain sitting in the airplane with the canopy open..like this:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/badatflyski/fw190-snow.jpg

and not like it should be:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/badatflyski/190japan.jpg

note: notice the japan markings on it: it is the only one 190 that made his way to japan http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

luftluuver
07-09-2006, 08:01 AM
Never use a scanner before. The come in all sizes, even up to flatbed E size.

LOL, you even reduced the drawing 10%. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

LOl, if you are familular with the Bentley drawings, how could you miss that the White One were not copies of them? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

White One still needs autherization to sell the drawings.

badatflyski
07-09-2006, 08:21 AM
yeah but, it's not a question here if those drawings are from X or Y, the juridical stuff is not really our concern( even if you're right), what our probelm is for about 4 or5 years now : the porked view in the 190 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif
see pictures above: 2different positions in the cockpit : canopy open (or sitting on the seat without the cussion like the russian pilot in the movie http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif) and canopy closed (sitting on the cussion or on the raft http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif )http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif
is there anyone here that has access to a 190 in a museum or so?, maybe he could test the 2 positions: sitting on the cussion,seat adjusted, with the canopy open and closed. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif

karost
07-09-2006, 08:38 AM
Originally posted by badatflyski:

(just check the pictures; plane on the ground with canopy open: pilot in normal sitting position and pilothead low, plane in flight, pilot bend forward and pilot head almost touches the canopy)and oleg didn't take in account the refraction of the armored glass!



Oh... man Thanks.

this is a one of major point that I(we) did not learn before "the fw190 pilot seat is moving when canopy close/open"

I am sure that soon, there will have alot of pictures and contexts to confirm or reject this point.

since a sonar sound , MG151/20 (HE) and now is a time for "the fw190 pilot seat is moving (and nose down too)"

Oh... man, I love this community. LOL
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
S!

badatflyski
07-09-2006, 08:49 AM
karost : exagerated yesterday?
http://thaizine.com/images/stoned.gif
no-one have said the seat is moving with the canopy, it's ure assumption http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

but if you're so clever, please explain why the pilot is sitting in a normal pisition with the view low with when the canopy is open and leaning forward with view high when the canopy's closed? (the plane beeing on the ground in this two cases)
thanks a lot , i'm enjoying reading your future clever and logical answer http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

luftluuver
07-09-2006, 09:34 AM
Blowing hot air you are. Photos of Uffz Merbeler and Helmut Johne JG JG51 with the canopy open have their eyes above the instrument panel cover (ie head high). Another photo of Anton Hackl shows the same.

So what you would like to think of as normal in the Emil Lang photo, is NOT normal.

On the drawings, you made a statement that was clearly wrong. That might have been where you purchased the drawings but it is not the original source. Anyways, since you can't see that they are Bentley drawings, any conclusions you reach about the photos is not worth much.

horseback
07-09-2006, 10:06 AM
There are a couple of issues with the modeling of the pilot's viewpoint in the FW 190 (and the P-38, the P-47, and several other non-Russian a/c):

First, the pilot's point of view is centered on the gunsight's crosshairs, even when the gunsight is 'toggled' for the seated back position. This probably has its roots in the original game concept of simulating just the Il-2, which has its gunsight crosshairs located quite a bit higher in relation to the pilot than most fighters of the time.

In most western and German fighters, a pilot would lean forward and down a bit to look through the sight. The added complication of many of the sights being drawn too close to the lower edge of the windshield was just a bonus.

Second, there is the limit of your peripheral view. The Wide field of view is around 85 degrees, while most people can detect movement almost 180 degrees around them in every direction. Deflection shooting becomes much easier with both the sight and the target in your field of view, along with other references to orient yourself with. This was a large part of the 190's great visibility advantage over its contemporaries, but it usually takes a peripheral range of greater than 85 degrees.

Finally, badatflyski, the Japanese FW photo may have another flaw: the average Japanese man in 1941 was 62 inches tall and weighed 120 lbs, compared to the European and American averages of about 68 inches tall and 155 lbs...that pilot in the photo was probably 10% shorter than his European counterparts.

cheers

horseback

karost
07-09-2006, 11:07 AM
my old idea look same like other people about parachute position

here below is a picture from Venik's Aviation www.aeronautics.ru (http://www.aeronautics.ru)

open cockpit
http://aeronautics.ru/archive/wwii/periodicals/int_air_power_review/winter_2001_2002/web_gallery/images/fw-190_0057.jpg

close cockpit
http://aeronautics.ru/archive/wwii/periodicals/int_air_power_review/winter_2001_2002/web_gallery/images/fw-190_0039.jpg

back parachut
http://aeronautics.ru/archive/wwii/periodicals/int_air_power_review/winter_2001_2002/web_gallery/images/fw-190_0022.jpg

seat parachute
http://aeronautics.ru/archive/wwii/periodicals/int_air_power_review/winter_2001_2002/web_gallery/images/fw-190_0023.jpg

no parachute
http://aeronautics.ru/archive/wwii/periodicals/int_air_power_review/winter_2001_2002/web_gallery/images/fw-190_0025.jpg
http://aeronautics.ru/archive/wwii/periodicals/int_air_power_review/winter_2001_2002/web_gallery/images/fw-190_0043.jpg

here is a very gooood visible view postion in FW190 when you hang at the wing http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
http://aeronautics.ru/archive/wwii/periodicals/int_air_power_review/winter_2001_2002/web_gallery/images/fw-190_0048.jpg

btw, my bad idea about "moving pilot seat" may wrong. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

S!

IL2-chuter
07-10-2006, 01:23 AM
You know, it might just be me, but if I were designing a combat aircraft I would be inclined ( . . . laid back? hmmm. . . ) to include adjustable rudder pedals and seat . . . you, know, for different sized pilots and circumstances. Like, maybe, the pilot might want the seat low for engine start or all the way up for taxiing. Just a thought. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif As critical and personal as pilot position in an aircraft is it just might be an idea that would catch on, eh?

Codex1971
07-10-2006, 03:39 AM
Well I guess all this discussion about the "bar" and "pilot height" won't matter once BoB comes out...if you have TrackIR that is. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Charos
07-10-2006, 05:07 AM
Originally posted by Codex1971:
Well I guess all this discussion about the "bar" and "pilot height" won't matter once BoB comes out...if you have TrackIR that is. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

From everything I have read about Storm of War Oleg will certainly be raising the bar. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

rnzoli
07-10-2006, 05:22 AM
Originally posted by Codex1971:
Well I guess all this discussion about the "bar" and "pilot height" won't matter once BoB comes out...if you have TrackIR that is. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Really?

I guess you mean that with 6DOF you can "raise" your head and look outside above the bar when closing onto your target.

But when you aim, you still have to align your view with the gunsight, meaning that your sight will be restricted by the "bar" in the same way as before. Right?

Codex1971
07-10-2006, 07:58 AM
Originally posted by rnzoli:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Codex1971:
Well I guess all this discussion about the "bar" and "pilot height" won't matter once BoB comes out...if you have TrackIR that is. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Really?

I guess you mean that with 6DOF you can "raise" your head and look outside above the bar when closing onto your target.

But when you aim, you still have to align your view with the gunsight, meaning that your sight will be restricted by the "bar" in the same way as before. Right? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It won't matter...if your able too, get FS2004 and any one of the Wings of Power addon's from here (http://www.shockwaveproductions.com/store/), or even get CFS3. Combine it with TrackIR 3 or 4 and you'll truly appreciate what TrackIR and 6DOF in will do for BoB.

Holtzauge
07-10-2006, 12:41 PM
The picture shows that the sighting view when the eye is correctly aligned IRL is much better.

Notice the mechanical backup ring and bead sight to the right on the REVI: to get an idea of the correct alignment and actual view over the nose, the picture should have been taken from a lower position since the top of the bar should be aligned to the center of the ring.

So here is some more real life proof that the deflection view through the sight in PF is significantly worse than it was in real life.

"It's a slam dunk case" (Yes, in THIS case it seems to be true http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gifis )

Heavy_Weather
07-10-2006, 02:23 PM
nice http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Kettenhunde
07-10-2006, 09:21 PM
White One still needs autherization to sell the drawings.


We have it. That CD contains all the Focke Wulf Bremen original plans as well.