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CMHQ_Rikimaru
02-23-2007, 08:59 AM
Ive found something interesting, that I would like to ask if it is as it was in rl.
I made tests, and its clearly that all FW190s got disadvantage at 1 stage of supercharger in winter maps! Why? Because air is more dense, and proppeler position 12.00 o clock is max at around 280km/h, so under this speed, RPMs are going low 2400-2300, which is clear decrease of power, and disadvantage. Everything is working fine, on normal maps, where air isnt so dense, and kommandogerat can set enough pitch to move while slow maneuvers.

My question is, is this true, or Oleg just missed that?

BBB_Hyperion
02-23-2007, 09:06 AM
Can you describe the problem more detailed ?

Which map ?

Which model ?

Daytime ?

Starting alt ?

etc

CMHQ_Rikimaru
02-23-2007, 09:07 AM
All antons.
During the day.
Crimea map is normal map, moscow is winter one.
Any alt until second stage of supercharger.
This effect is especially easy to see on lower alts.

JG4_Helofly
02-23-2007, 09:10 AM
Don't know if it's the same problem, but when you do manoeuvres like a loop or something like that your rpm decrease by 400 and that's only with the 190A. With the Dora no problem.
Does it maybe have something to do with the bmw 801 which lost so much rpm in RL?

CMHQ_Rikimaru
02-23-2007, 09:12 AM
Originally posted by JG4_Helofly:
Don't know if it's the same problem, but when you do manoeuvres like a loop or something like that your rpm decrease by 400 and that's only with the 190A. With the Dora no problem.
Does it maybe have something to do with the bmw 801 which lost so much rpm in RL?

Yes, because ur speed is below 250-280km/h(depends on model). Also during high angle of attack maneuvers kommandogerat sets RPM too low.

JtD
02-23-2007, 09:43 AM
Yes, at low speeds the rpm of the BMW drop, imho this is the reason for a rather poor low speed performance of the bird.

CMHQ_Rikimaru
02-23-2007, 09:48 AM
The thing is, that it only happens in winter maps. If i understand it right, Oleg has modelled FW190 for standard maps, with standard density of air, and when it comes to the higher density and lower speed, then bang, u got poor rpms.

Scen
02-23-2007, 10:25 AM
Why not just switch it to manual? I rarely fly with auto props in the Anton.

jermin122
02-23-2007, 10:57 AM
Flying with manual prop pitch can increase the rpm IIRC. And I found A9's verticle climb performace is much poorer than A6.

JG14_Josf
02-23-2007, 11:21 AM
jermin122,

Nice set-up. Did you get em'?

Viper2005_
02-23-2007, 11:42 AM
I think that the root cause of the problem is that the fine pitch stop on the 190 is too coarse, preventing full rpm (and thus full power) from being attained until quite high speeds are reached.

Unfortunately, in the absence of data it is difficult to put forward an effective case for this to be changed, though I can't think of any other aeroplanes with constant speed props incapable of reaching full rpm below 260 km/h or so...

GR142_Astro
02-23-2007, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by JG14_Josf:
jermin122,

Nice set-up. Did you get em'?

Same thing I was thinking. Looks like a for-shure to me.

DKoor
02-23-2007, 01:12 PM
If he just started to fire on that pic there could be only two results: miss or tail hit. Depending on target's speed http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

JG14_Josf
02-23-2007, 01:35 PM
Depending on target's speed

That is what I was thinking. The Jug might have just nosed over.

JtD
02-23-2007, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by JG14_Josf:
The Jug might have just nosed over.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

JG14_Josf
02-23-2007, 02:05 PM
A fan?

When the target is fixated on the wingman anything can happen. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://mysite.verizon.net/res0l0yx/Art/Pictures/deflection.jpg

By the way: Fw190s on Auto-pitch should be similar to 109s on Auto-pitch i.e. direct prop pitch control.

Switching to auto for more power is a cheat, err, game balance thingy.

GR142_Astro
02-23-2007, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by JG14_Josf:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Depending on target's speed

That is what I was thinking. The Jug might have just nosed over. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No Jug in that pic M8.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/4189/shootcv5.jpg

JG53Frankyboy
02-23-2007, 04:23 PM
fly the BMW driven Fw190 at least in combat on manual mode with prop pitch at 100%.
ignore the Kommandogerät auto mode - even if its ugly in comparison to the reality http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

The kommandogerät i use only if i fly with my comrades online in formation, so we have to manipulate only one "lever"

JG14_Josf
02-23-2007, 05:45 PM
No Jug in that pic M8.

Damn no wonder I had to learn how to zoom in.

Did you score?

jermin122
02-23-2007, 09:04 PM
It was a La5fn actually. He was trying to catch me up in my zoom climb, but his E was too low. Then he stalled at the top of his zoom before I flipped over. So I got a chance to make that snapshot. Please bear in mind that his speed was extremely slow at that time. From the pic below, you can see what that La5fn had become.

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/5538/lajt8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

CMHQ_Rikimaru
02-24-2007, 12:14 AM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
fly the BMW driven Fw190 at least in combat on manual mode with prop pitch at 100%.
ignore the Kommandogerät auto mode - even if its ugly in comparison to the reality http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

The kommandogerät i use only if i fly with my comrades online in formation, so we have to manipulate only one "lever"

Nono, propably u didnt understand me, or didnt notice that fact.
CHANGING FROM AUTO PROP INTO MANUAL PROP WONT HELP HERE!
Its about maximum degree of pitch, not the way that kommandogerat sets it. I see that Viper2005_ get whats going on, read his post.

JtD
02-24-2007, 12:27 AM
Rikimaru, with manual prop pitch you improve the low speed performance of Fw because you will get more rpm from the engine than at auto mode. It still is not even close to 2700, but it is a bit more.

CMHQ_Rikimaru
02-24-2007, 04:25 AM
Manual prop pitch will only keep higher setting of pitch, and I know it, the thing is, that manual prop pitch cannot set proppeler past the maximum ammount, which is indicated as 12:00 o clock. Watch prop pitch indicator, and u will understand what im talking about.

BBB_Hyperion
02-24-2007, 08:38 AM
Can you make a track preferable you use a map where there is winter and summer map present(same region). Cause temperature at sea level and air density is different on each map and region. Did you try already if ai troubles the same problem ? Is there any proof that the gauage works right or is it just it cant display more than 12:00 position.

With 2 tracks we can make a excel rpm comparison and see to it.

There was always something fishy about the fw acceleration in low speed regime problem is we don't have the excat propeller types , efficiency values.

JG14_Josf
02-24-2007, 09:47 AM
It was a La5fn actually. He was trying to catch me up in my zoom climb, but his E was too low. Then he stalled at the top of his zoom before I flipped over. So I got a chance to make that snapshot. Please bear in mind that his speed was extremely slow at that time. From the pic below, you can see what that La5fn had become.

I don't want to side track this thread but -

COOL!

JG53Frankyboy
02-24-2007, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by CMHQ_Rikimaru:
Manual prop pitch will only keep higher setting of pitch, and I know it, the thing is, that manual prop pitch cannot set proppeler past the maximum ammount, which is indicated as 12:00 o clock. Watch prop pitch indicator, and u will understand what im talking about.

manual "prop pitch" in the Fw190 is giving you actually higher engine revs...........
the pitch gauge is "only" showing you wich propellerbladeangle the ConstantSpeedPropeller is using to mantain these odrered revolutions.
you dont manupulate the angle directly , like in a DB driven plane in game, you control the engine revs.

CMHQ_Rikimaru
02-24-2007, 10:13 AM
Here is the track:
http://rapidshare.com/files/18075561/ppitch.rar.html

Two missions generated by QB, moscow and smolensk.
Plane : FW190A8, 100% fuel.

JG53Frankyboy - watch the tracks, u will know what im talking about, and that auto/manual prop doesnt have any influence at this. Its about maximum angle of propeller pitch.

Edit1: corrected the link, it should work now.

BBB_Hyperion
02-24-2007, 08:17 PM
Back Home on late Monday . Will look then.

WWMaxGunz
02-24-2007, 10:41 PM
Originally posted by Viper2005_:
I think that the root cause of the problem is that the fine pitch stop on the 190 is too coarse, preventing full rpm (and thus full power) from being attained until quite high speeds are reached.

Unfortunately, in the absence of data it is difficult to put forward an effective case for this to be changed, though I can't think of any other aeroplanes with constant speed props incapable of reaching full rpm below 260 km/h or so...

Oleg stated the case years ago in reply to a favorite-chart waver.
The FW in question at the time, Oleg stated that the prop modeled is a HIGH SPEED PROP and not
the one used by the plane in the chart waved, a climb chart.

It gets interesting when props may differ between charts as one chart can tell of climb and
another can tell of speed but without the full documents the full differences of the machines
that made the charts, which can be and often are different machines. Since to the average
gamer all models with the same designation are effectively the same plane, a very warped view
of what 'that plane' 'can do' develops.

The prop that is at high stop and still has bite at over 420 mph is not the prop that is going
to climb better at 180 mph which is going to have limited full speed. The high speed prop at
low speed and very high power is going to stall itself trying to limit RPM's under a straight
CSP system such as IL2 manual prop control FW.

jermin122
02-25-2007, 02:31 AM
Thanx, Josf!

CMHQ_Rikimaru
02-25-2007, 02:44 AM
Max, the thing is that this propeller is working fine on normal maps, but in the winter maps doesnt, because max angle of pitch is so restricted. Dora doesnt have that problem nor most planes.

BBB_Hyperion
02-27-2007, 06:36 AM
Made a small review of the tracks.

Data Charts

http://rapidshare.com/files/18533912/fw190proppitchproblem.pdf.html

Complete Charts with Data

http://rapidshare.com/files/18534083/fw190proppitchproblem.xls.html

There are 2 points i noticed the low rpm zone at about 30 s and the manifold pressure drawback at about 4s.

Moscow starting alt is 400 m and Crimea 100 m bad for 1vs1 comparison. Interesting enough speed and climbrate seem not that much different .

Seems some more tests are needed.

CMHQ_Rikimaru
02-27-2007, 10:01 AM
Thx for ur work mate, from that u can clearly see that RPMs are going down. About actuall climbrate, and power: the angle of climb is different in both tests, so to find out actuall climb/energy loss, we need to make better test, with exactly the same angle, but i got no idea how to do it. In my tests I just wanted to show what im talking about to the ppl who didnt get it. But for sure, on Crimea map, it was much easier to maintain climb, just watch when i use the flaps so early on moscow map, to be able to maintain climb.

BBB_Hyperion
02-27-2007, 11:19 PM
I tried already to manually edit the .trk files to archive "same" conditions but seems there is a crc32 or md5 on it now that checks the input. With this method we would have almost similar conditions. On the other hand the problem can be alt related iirc there were some talks that fw190 a series has some performance problem at around 1 km in this sim. Does the same problem appear when you start from lower alt than 400 m on winter maps ? Is it only on that winter map or general problem ?

Wonder what causes this low rpm kdo device wrong input ?. Propeller pitch is just one option. The 190 has systems csp controlled , kdo device controlled and variable pitch. The csp mode rpm are related to maintain rpm . Does this happen on both manual and auto pitch ?

WWMaxGunz
02-27-2007, 11:33 PM
Do the FW's have large diameter props? Has anyone tried this with an F4U?

BBB_Hyperion
02-28-2007, 01:07 AM
That might be an idea Max it could be that it uses a Larger Prop in Winter Scenario so rpm goes down. But that wouldn't explain the almost similar rpm in starting phase this should be significant lower. Too bad we can't read out propeller pitch positions in flight that would surely tell if it is kdo related or propeller or engine.