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View Full Version : Hitler Intended to Invade Britain in 1940...My Battle of Britain Evidence Here!



MB_Avro_UK
10-23-2008, 04:08 PM
Hi all,

I recently bought an interesting German military document dated August 1940. This document was produced at the height of the Battle of Britain.

The document comprises over 400 pages and relates to the planned invasion of Britain.

This example was issued to a German Artillery Regiment.

It's a fascinating contemporary study of the coastline of southern England. And with invasion in mind!

I find it to be rather spooky looking at all the towns I know so well that were contemplated as invasion points by the German High Command.

I only received the book today and have not had time to study it. But I have posted a few pages here as I thought that it may be of interest to you all.

I would appreaciate your comments http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif



1. This pic gives an idea of the size http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/MB_Avro/004.jpg



2. More details:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/MB_Avro/005-1.jpg


3. Pull-out.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/MB_Avro/006.jpg


4. Another Pull-out.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/MB_Avro/007.jpg


5.Coast plans.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/MB_Avro/008.jpg


6. Coast plans.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/MB_Avro/009.jpg


7. Dover pics.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/MB_Avro/013.jpg


8. More Dover.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/MB_Avro/014.jpg


9. First section of a large pull-out of Southern England.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/MB_Avro/015.jpg


10. Second Section.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/MB_Avro/017.jpg


11. Third Section.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/MB_Avro/018.jpg



There are many more images in this book. All are fascinating. It's a time capsule from 1940. If anyone wants more pics I'll be happy to oblige http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

waffen-79
10-23-2008, 04:15 PM
Avro mate, excellent stuff, please continue to post more images

I might be wrong but I firmly believe that an invasion was infact considered, planned, etc.

But during the actual conflict they realized it was impossible to accomplish without paying a heavy toll, so they wanted the UK at their side or at the very least, neutral

MB_Avro_UK
10-23-2008, 04:27 PM
Hey Waffen, I'm not taking sides here as to what was or not planned but I think that this book adds to the debate.

This book is so unique.

I'll post more pics later.

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

BillyTheKid_22
10-23-2008, 04:56 PM
Howdy!! MB_Avro_UK, I am Shocked!! Cool, http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I love Book!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

MB_Avro_UK
10-23-2008, 05:02 PM
Yep, I was also shocked when I read the contents! Amazing information. A superb historical document IMHO.

But as I said, over 400 pages. So much information and it will take months to go through it.

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

Freiwillige
10-23-2008, 05:06 PM
Great find Avro!

As for the invasion of England. It is undoubtable that it was planned "if" England did not come to terms. I dont think that Germany ever wanted to invade England and were quit beleiving that some peace would be found after France but in the end realised just one thing. The only thing more stubborn than the Germans is the English!

stalkervision
10-23-2008, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by Freiwillige:
Great find Avro!

As for the invasion of England. It is undoubtable that it was planned "if" England did not come to terms. I dont think that Germany ever wanted to invade England and were quit beleiving that some peace would be found after France but in the end realised just one thing. The only thing more stubborn than the Germans is the English!

I agree it's a contingincy plan. Great find none the less.

M_Gunz
10-23-2008, 05:21 PM
=Complete Sarcastic BS Mode ON=

Oh well you how badly Hitler lied all the time.
I won't attack, I won't attack there, I only want peace, blah-blah-blah....

So when he doesn't intend to attack, he psychotically has documents made for an attack, you see?

=Complete Sarcastic BS Mode OFF=

stalkervision
10-23-2008, 05:31 PM
It is well known Hitler admired England and it's people. Why? How the hell should I know. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif It is also well know Churchill wouldn't bargan with him on the fate of a Europe in Nazi hands.

Contingency war plans are very common. At one time the USA had a war plan made up making England a primary enemy of the USA before ww 2!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_Five

MB_Avro_UK
10-23-2008, 05:34 PM
And Hitler also had invasion barges in French ports.

Is this book significant historically?

stalkervision
10-23-2008, 05:35 PM
BTW why didn't my bonus pack Il-2 give me those fancy papers like you got in yours? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif

stalkervision
10-23-2008, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:
And Hitler also had invasion barges in French ports.

Is this book significant historically?

The contingency came into play after Churchill refused negotations.

Ya the book is sufficently valuable buddy. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

stalkervision
10-23-2008, 05:41 PM
war plan red... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

USA war plan making England a primary enemy of the USA before ww 2!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Plan_Red

MB_Avro_UK
10-23-2008, 05:47 PM
Yep, Contingency! Every Government has a contingecy for everything.



Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

Ob.Emann
10-23-2008, 05:49 PM
Plans exist for a proposed U.S. invasion of Mexico in 1919 (War Plan Green) and there are also several drafts made from 1928 to 1935 of a plan to invade Canada (War Plan Red). The use of chemical weapons against the Canadians was also authorized.

Freiwillige
10-23-2008, 10:48 PM
Well I dont know if I would call it a contigency plan. The well accepted idea is that once France (Who had the largest army in the world at that time) fell to blitzkreig there would be no way that England would want to continue the war and quickly come to terms, thus freeing Germany to turn its attention to Germanisize the east and smash its ideological enemy Communism.

Further proof is the fact that Hitler stopped his army outside of Dunquirk and let the British army go thinking it would be easier for England to negotiate with her pride still intact. The plan for sealion is known to be thrown together at the last second when they realised England wasnt going to quit.

ImpStarDuece
10-23-2008, 11:41 PM
Originally posted by Freiwillige:

Further proof is the fact that Hitler stopped his army outside of Dunquirk and let the British army go thinking it would be easier for England to negotiate with her pride still intact.

Hitler didn't stop the Army outside Dunkirk. Von Runstedt did.

Hitler didn't know that the leading divisions had been halted until a full 18 hours after it happened.

He agreed with the decision though. Not because of any notion of "letting the British go", but because of a long held anxiety, both by Hitler and Senior German commanders that there would be an Allied armoured counterattack from the South, and the advancing elements had stuck their neck out too far. (German intelligence actually thought there were twice as many British divisions deployed in France than there were, and four British armoured divisions, as opposed to just one in reality).

After all, assigning the Luftwaffe to attack the British beachheads non-stop, and tasking Army Group B's infantry units to attack through the defensive perimeter hardly constitutes letting them go.

The Germans made a choice: instead of advancing their war weary panzers through boggy, marshy country against a determined enemy, and being potentially caught in the rear, they decided to rest and refit their tanks for the long strike down south towards Paris.

While we puzzle at the decision in hindsight, from the German point of view it was quite logical. Neither the Germans, or even the Royal Navy, knew just how many soliders were in the perimeter in May 1940.


The plan for sealion is known to be thrown together at the last second when they realised England wasnt going to quit.

There were German invasion plans for the UK made from mid 1939, after Hitler revelaed that he intended to invade Poland, an action which Germany knew would lead to a wider European war. Most plans concerning the UK consisted of efforts to prevent her from interfering in a continental war, or blockading her if they could not. The Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine displayed far more interest in the capabilities of the British than the Army did.

The invasion plans were recycled and refined over May and June 1940, before Hitler issued Fuhrer Directive 16 in July. Then they were recycled and refined again through August.

Yes, the early collapse of France was unexpected - from both sides - but it wasn't as if the Germans suddenly said "Vell, ve haf reached der Channel, now vat?. Fancy a svim, Hans?"

Kurfurst__
10-23-2008, 11:51 PM
That's a pretty cool booklet of Southern England indeed. Never seen a military map of this kind before, its seems fascinatingly through from the picture, they seem to note the ground type (I can make out 'Sand'), and (pre-war tourist?) photos of the more notable places so that soldiers can recgonize them in a place they never have been before.

All in all, pretty interesting stuff, thanks for posting them.

Stingray333
10-24-2008, 12:21 AM
Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
That's a pretty cool booklet of Southern England indeed. Never seen a military map of this kind before, its seems fascinatingly through from the picture, they seem to note the ground type (I can make out 'Sand')

Yep, those look like standard geological maps. They map rock units as they appear on the surface, often with faults, estimates of age, etc. Probably useful from a military point of view for estimating road conditions, how areas will change with rain, how easy it will be to dig fox holes, etc.

Very likely that the British Geological Survey made those maps and published them in scientific journals in the Royal Society of London, or other academic circle, and the Germans would have had no problem digging that information up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geologic_map

Stingray

Freiwillige
10-24-2008, 12:51 AM
"Yes, the early collapse of France was unexpected - from both sides - but it wasn't as if the Germans suddenly said "Vell, ve haf reached der Channel, now vat?. Fancy a svim, Hans?"

I disagree. Alot of what Germany did in the west was mass improvisation on a tremendous scale. Alot of Fuhrer directives were based on political expediants and the military had to just damn well catch up! Gerrmany was hardly convinced that England and france would fight over a poland. And when war was declared both sides were scrambling about trying to figure out whats next.

jasonbirder
10-24-2008, 01:58 AM
<LOL> I get it even if no-one else does http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Heliopause
10-24-2008, 04:36 AM
That book looks very interesting Avro!


And Hitler also had invasion barges in French ports.

And in Belgium...
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b334/PauseHelio/Hampdenattack.jpg

Darth_Reagan
10-24-2008, 05:11 AM
Are there any maps of Suffolk in it? I'm especially interested in Shingle street, because of the unconfirmed rumours of a failed invasion there and because it's local and there's still lots of old coastal defences in place there.

Marcel_Albert
10-24-2008, 11:20 AM
Originally posted by Freiwillige:
Well I dont know if I would call it a contigency plan. The well accepted idea is that once France (Who had the largest army in the world at that time) fell to blitzkreig there would be no way that England would want to continue the war and quickly come to terms, thus freeing Germany to turn its attention to Germanisize the east and smash its ideological enemy Communism.

Further proof is the fact that Hitler stopped his army outside of Dunquirk and let the British army go thinking it would be easier for England to negotiate with her pride still intact. The plan for sealion is known to be thrown together at the last second when they realised England wasnt going to quit.

Well , for sure we didn't have the largest army in the world ... far from it .. USSR had . France had an outdated army both in tactics and materials (bar a few exceptions ) despite De Gaulle book on mechanized infantry and efforts from officials to modernize it in a haste when the conflict appeared unavoidable . We had 1 million infantrymen but scattered along the borders and no autonomous tank divisions . France was 40 millions people (lowest point in history compared to her neighbours , until 19th century , France has always been the most populous nation in Europe ), IIIrd Reich was 80 millions .

Like said Impstarduece , no one knew how many men were in the perimeter at that time .Many Frenchmen died to protect the evacuation of British expeditionnary forces that was routed , initially the British and Belgians who were holding left flank , collapsed and got routed by the Germans , British were running for their lives at that point to save what remained of BEF to defend their island , so pride was not exactly intact .

Anyhow , i thought it was clear and known that Hitler wanted to invade Britain since 1939 , even before directive number 16 , plans of invasion were made , even Molotov was told of that by Nazi officials as reported in books .

This said i agree with you Freiwillige , when you say that IIIrd Reich (Hitler) did not want to commit in a long term conflict with Britain but fight USSR instead as a priority , i have read this many times in serious books , that argument was that since Britain was an island , Panzers wouldn't cross , and it would cost lots of German lives to succesfully invade this island and it would bring little rewards for the III Reich as Hitler saw the fall of the British Empire as benefiting the USA , Japan and other powers primarily , he didn't realize that it was a trojan horse that would ultimately be used by the USA to break his armies from the rear and become a useful platform from which Allies would destroy German cities , his priority at the time as you said was to submit the Eastern population , win the ideological battle against Stalin and put in application his national-socialist "project" for these people , moreover the fact that Britain "seemed" no longer a serious threat to the Reich compared to the USSR in early 1941 and the atmosphere of euphoria/invincibility after the fall of France convinced them that they should not be diverted from their primary objective in the East (lebensraum and fall of "bolchevismus"), instead of sacrificing lots of ressources and men in a Britain invasion whilst Stalin was strengthening , they thought they could contain the British for some time and would turn back their full focus towards Britain once USSR will be defeated (in a short war , as Hitler thought it would be ..).

This decision to not invade Britain before attacking USSR cost him the war in my opinion because USSR was not prepared in 1941 to lead an attack on the Reich ,and with Britain under III Reich rule , there is no way USA would have been able to defeat the Nazis and liberate Europe IMHO . I'm sorry if i made English mistakes

MB_Avro_UK
10-24-2008, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by Darth_Reagan:
Are there any maps of Suffolk in it? I'm especially interested in Shingle street, because of the unconfirmed rumours of a failed invasion there and because it's local and there's still lots of old coastal defences in place there.

Nothing as regards Suffolk. Coverage extends as far as Margate from Land's End.

Rather strange that Land's End is included yet not the Suffolk coast.


Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

M_Gunz
10-24-2008, 12:23 PM
Hitler certainly took a hard shot at invading Britain. He didn't decide not to send troops,
that decision was made for him by the British!

I've watched video of a surviving German soldier talk about the use of pep pills during the
invasion of France to keep moving for days at a time. A few weeks of that catches up. France
had not been taken when the BEF pulled out of Dunkirk either, had it? There was still a lot
of mopping up and securing to be done.

A look at the trends and plans back then tells me that it was highly possible that Russia would
have taken Europe if Germany hadn't have built up when they did. That's what the 5 and 10 year
plans were about.

MB_Avro_UK
10-24-2008, 04:52 PM
Hi all,

Here's a few more pics. As I said before, the book has over 400 pages.

The sequence of the pages starts at Land's End in Cornwall and progresses eastwards towards Margate in Kent. In other words, all along the south coast of England.

There are some interesting photos of English people worrking in the fields or on holiday.

Can anyone translate please?



1.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/MB_Avro/009-1.jpg

2.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/MB_Avro/010.jpg

3.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/MB_Avro/012.jpg

4.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/MB_Avro/013-1.jpg

5.

Can anyone work out the meaning of the numbers?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/MB_Avro/014-1.jpg

6.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/MB_Avro/015-1.jpg



Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

Hatter_RAF
10-24-2008, 08:26 PM
Where did you acquire this? If it is indeed unique, it should be preserved in an archive -- or at least digitally photographed for archival use.

MB_Avro_UK
10-25-2008, 04:24 AM
Originally posted by Hatter_RAF:
Where did you acquire this? If it is indeed unique, it should be preserved in an archive -- or at least digitally photographed for archival use.

Check your PMs please.

ImpStarDuece
10-26-2008, 03:42 AM
Gerrmany was hardly convinced that England and france would fight over a poland. And when war was declared both sides were scrambling about trying to figure out whats next.

********.

Hitler, and the German political and military establishment knew that any declaration of war against Poland was going to lead to both Britain and France declaring war, fuflilling their treaty requirements and promises that had been made since early 1939.

In March 1939, Chaimberlian made it explicitly clear that any act of agression against Poland would lead to Britain declaring war. In April 1939, the two countries met to form a formal defence pact and again informed Germany that any act of war against Poland would also be an act of war against the UK. In late August, the two countries signed the Poland-British Common defence pact.

The signing of the treaty lead to Germany (explicitly Hitler, but also under the strong urging of von Ribbentrop) delaying the invasion of Poland by a week.

Hitler KNEW. The German armed forces and political establishment KNEW that invading Poland would lead to war with France and the UK

Freiwillige
10-26-2008, 04:14 AM
Just like they went to war over Czeckoslovakia?
Like I said Germany was hardly convinced war would be declared. Especially since Germany and Russia's non aggression pact prior to Poland being split. Oddly if the western allies Guarenteed Polands security and went to war over Poland they conveiniantly forgott that Russia invaded the other half. Also they forgott about Polish independance after Germany was defeated.

M_Gunz
10-26-2008, 08:15 AM
There's a difference between forgot and not trying to take from a very strong bear that
cares not what went went before.

b2spirita
10-26-2008, 09:29 AM
Looks like a good find, where did you get it? I wonder why they were so interested in rock types (if thats what pic one and two are..). Like you said it seems strange that they went so far west, when they thought (at least prior to D-day) that the Dover-Calais region was the best suited for invasion. For some reason it seems wierd looking at bath (current home) and thinking of german invasion there.

Thanks for posting. Look after it.And dont let odie get it!

Xiolablu3
10-26-2008, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by Freiwillige:
Just like they went to war over Czeckoslovakia?
Like I said Germany was hardly convinced war would be declared. Especially since Germany and Russia's non aggression pact prior to Poland being split. Oddly if the western allies Guarenteed Polands security and went to war over Poland they conveiniantly forgott that Russia invaded the other half. Also they forgott about Polish independance after Germany was defeated.

They didnt 'forget', they were just powerless to do anything, being, youknow, bankrupt and all. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Aaron_GT
10-26-2008, 11:18 AM
Anyhow , i thought it was clear and known that Hitler wanted to invade Britain since 1939

I think there's a difference between wanting to and feeling it might be required or making contingency plans.


Just like they went to war over Czeckoslovakia?

British rearmament got under way in earnest in 1934 and had a projected initial phase completion date in 1940. Britain simply wasn't capable of engaging in a continental-scale war in 1938 and didn't do that well two years later. Part of the issue may have been an overestimate of German strength (i.e. a successful propaganda exercise).

Recently agent-based modelling has been used to model a 1938 war and the verdict from that seems to be that it would have failed and has led to one well-known (although I can't remember his name!) historian to reverse his opinion on the matter.

Aaron_GT
10-26-2008, 11:33 AM
It's an amazing documeny you have there.I presume the IWM has a copy too. Might be a good resource scanned and online but that would be a huuuuuge pdf!

ImpStarDuece
10-26-2008, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by Freiwillige:
Just like they went to war over Czeckoslovakia?

Britain and France did not have defence pacts with Czechoslovakia.

Unlike the explicit line in the sand that both governments drew over Poland, Britain and France were given an out in the case of Czechoslovakia; Czech capitulation before the acceptance of the terms of the French ultimatum meant that there was no Casus Belli.



Oddly if the western allies Guarenteed Polands security and went to war over Poland they conveiniantly forgott that Russia invaded the other half. Also they forgott about Polish independance after Germany was defeated.

The defence pact was as much a trip wire against continued German expansionism, as it was a guarantee of Polish sovereignty.

The wording of the Poland-British Common defence pact allowed Britain an out in that Poland had to declare hostilities against the Soviet Union for the pact to be triggered.

Aaron_GT
10-26-2008, 04:08 PM
The wording of the Poland-British Common defence pact allowed Britain an out in that Poland had to declare hostilities against the Soviet Union for the pact to be triggered.

Action was considered against the USSR during the war with Finland but was considered impractical.

WTE_Galway
10-26-2008, 06:25 PM
Originally posted by Freiwillige:
I disagree. Alot of what Germany did in the west was mass improvisation on a tremendous scale. Alot of Fuhrer directives were based on political expediants and the military had to just damn well catch up!

The fact that Hitler was quite despicable morally and ended up somewhat mad often leads people to underestimate the extent of his brilliance as a tactical leader early in the war.

Unusual and innovative ideas (such as parachuting and even landing gliders on top of the heavy fortifications in Belgium and France) where encouraged and often taken up by Hitler and implemented.

However operation Sealion was different. Even had the Luftwaffe succeeded in suppressing the RAF - no matter how much innovation was applied to what was basically a Rhine River barge the Wehrmacht was not getting across the channel anytime soon.