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hatman1967
03-30-2005, 02:23 PM
For some reason I think that the theater for the next Silent Hunter will be the pacific. I am not sure this will be a good idea, for the following reasons -

When I first heard of Aotd and that it was set in the North Atlantic I was puzzled. Why would I want to play it, I mean no matter what I do, I am going to LOSE! But the pacing is actually ideal - it starts of easy and then gets much harder, until survival is a feat in and of itself. Now I don't know much about the American sub operations against the Japanese, other than that they were brutally effective in crippling the Japanese war machine - but the following questions stand out when it comes to making an enjoyable simulation about this period.

1) Did the americans enjoy as many sub 'toys' (i.e. upgrades/new tech) as the german's did?

2) Did the Japanese escorts enjoy the same upgrades that made the allied escorts such efficient killing machines?

3) Did the american's find the sub campaign to get easier, or more difficult as the war raged on.

The answers to these questions would detail how nail-bitingly fun a game set in this period would be ...

Dano

hatman1967
03-30-2005, 02:23 PM
For some reason I think that the theater for the next Silent Hunter will be the pacific. I am not sure this will be a good idea, for the following reasons -

When I first heard of Aotd and that it was set in the North Atlantic I was puzzled. Why would I want to play it, I mean no matter what I do, I am going to LOSE! But the pacing is actually ideal - it starts of easy and then gets much harder, until survival is a feat in and of itself. Now I don't know much about the American sub operations against the Japanese, other than that they were brutally effective in crippling the Japanese war machine - but the following questions stand out when it comes to making an enjoyable simulation about this period.

1) Did the americans enjoy as many sub 'toys' (i.e. upgrades/new tech) as the german's did?

2) Did the Japanese escorts enjoy the same upgrades that made the allied escorts such efficient killing machines?

3) Did the american's find the sub campaign to get easier, or more difficult as the war raged on.

The answers to these questions would detail how nail-bitingly fun a game set in this period would be ...

Dano

Johnny_JG2
03-30-2005, 02:47 PM
I think it's gonna be Lake Michigan/Lake Superior. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

hundurinn
03-30-2005, 03:30 PM
I was under the impression that the subs in the Pacific were not important. I read somewhere that in the beginning they were mostly used to rescue downed pilots, one of them was Geord Bush. Not sure if he was a relative of Georg W. Bush http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

vodkamike
03-30-2005, 03:44 PM
I think you have a point that the subs in the Pacific did not have the same importance as the German subs did in the Atlantic. Cutting of the convoys was extremely crucial for the development on the war. It was not the same in the Pacific.

But the Pacific would be a nice theater of war though. Maybe they could offer both options in version 4. That would be nice. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

CapBackassward
03-30-2005, 03:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hatman1967:
Now I don't know much about the American sub operations against the Japanese, other than that they were brutally effective in crippling the Japanese war machine - but the following questions stand out when it comes to making an enjoyable simulation about this period.

1) Did the americans enjoy as many sub 'toys' (i.e. upgrades/new tech) as the german's did?

2) Did the Japanese escorts enjoy the same upgrades that made the allied escorts such efficient killing machines?

3) Did the american's find the sub campaign to get easier, or more difficult as the war raged on.

The answers to these questions would detail how nail-bitingly fun a game set in this period would be ...

Dano <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


1. Yes. American subs seem to have been every bit as good and maybe better than the Germans with the exception of torpedo technology. Late in 1943 the US got its hands on a German torpedo and the weak link in the American subs technology was fixed. The US torpedos had a high malfunction (dud) rate until they looked at a German torp. US sub upgrades went from good to excellent and by 43 newer subs could dive to 420 feet and withstand the depth very well. If I remember correctly, it was very late in the war before the Germans had a sub that could go as deep as the US subs. Radar\Sonar developement progressed very well and by 1944 radar\sonar gave the US an overwhelming superiority over the Japanese.

2.Japenese shipping didn't progress as well as the Allies. The US sub presence no doubt hurt them hard and early on in the Pacific. Raw materials were hard to come by and it just got worse for the Japanese. Japanese were also late in achieving any success with sonar\radar technology.

3. The US found the sub war becoming increasingly easy as the war went on. It was still a dangerous occupation but US submarine technology, and the lack of any good intelligence by the Japanese about US submarine warfare, was amazingly bad. The Japanese spent most of the war depth charging at too shallow a depth because they never thought American subs could go beyond 200 ft.

I would suggest finding a copy of 'Pigboats' which is a history of US submarine operations in the Pacific during WW 2. It is written from actual Dept. of Defense records. Great book.

Rick

sgr_wilson
03-30-2005, 03:45 PM
I'm getting used to playing the underdog. I wonder what an SH4 in the Pacific from the Japanese point of view rather than the US would be like?

They had an amazing range of wierd subs which could launch planes etc. And it might be interesting to play from a defensive point of view rather than offensive.

ExitStrategy
03-30-2005, 04:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sgr_wilson:
I'm getting used to playing the underdog. I wonder what an SH4 in the Pacific from the Japanese point of view rather than the US would be like?

They had an amazing range of wierd subs which could launch planes etc. And it might be interesting to play from a defensive point of view rather than offensive. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah the Japanese had this wild plan to take out the Panama canal with a Submarine aircraft carrrier neat stuff.

Yeah I think either side in the Pacific war would be fun. There seems to be more opportunities to take out capital ships rather than just killing merchant and the occasionaly destroyer.

But let's not give up on the concept of modern sub warfarehttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. I really haven't seen a good modern sub simulator in years, my favorite being Red Storm Rising on C-64 where you played on the verge of World War 3. There's just something about using wire guided torpedos, knowing where thermal layers are located, launching cruise missles, etc that's just good clean fun.

Guess these guys only do historical simulations tho?

Spaceballs83
03-30-2005, 04:11 PM
i want to pilot a suicied Sub

Luftwaffe_109
03-30-2005, 04:30 PM
Personally I would not mind at all having a Pacific subsim, although I would prefer if both sides were playable, the US and Japan.

Japan's submarine history is extremely interesting, with perhaps the most diverse submarine fleet of any nation in the war. The Japanese had many extremely long range submarines (excellent for the fans of the IX out there, like myself) and also were the only nation with submarines capable of launching aircraft and had by far the largest submarines of the war. If I am not mistaken, Japan also built some of the fastest submarines of the entire war.

The Japanese were also peculiar in that their Type 95 torpedo used pure oxygen to burn kerosene, instead of the compressed air, etc used by other nations. Their torpedoes had long range, high-yield warheads and reduced wake.

The Japanese also used their submarines predominantly against warships.

However, a Japanese campaign would also be very challenging, which is good, as their subs were relatively easy to sight visually and with radar (being so huge), slow to dive, hard to maneuver underwater, easy to track on sonar, and easy to hit.

Thus, I believe that a Pacific campaign, as well as including the US campaign against the Japanese, would also benifit greatly from a Japanese campaign.

Finally, I wonder if anyone has considered adding a British or Soviet submarine campaign to this game?

Best Regards

Hertston
03-30-2005, 04:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ExitStrategy:
I really haven't seen a good modern sub simulator in years <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cough... ahem, Dangerous Waters (http://www.battlefront.com/products/dw/index.html)

Sub Command wasn't half bad, either.


As to SH4, the Pacific. In the timescale Ubi are suggesting I can't see a whole new engine being developed, and a new theatre is about the only thing that would make it worth buying. Go back to U Boats with SH5 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The contribution of US subs was absolutely vital, and the Pacific has already been the setting for some great games, not least the first Silent Hunter.