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GSCaptMorgan
12-20-2005, 12:24 PM
Can we please have the as designation removed from the G6/as

It does not have GM1 on it and is misleading,

IMHO, Not trying to cause a problems, but if it is supposed to be a high altitude fighter. There by getting the AS designation, it should be equiped with GM1

Also if you could rename the the G-14 to G-14/u4
which was the command variant. Carried extra radios and was also equiped with GM1. The g-14 like many of the 109s came with only a 20m standard. The U4 (standing for mk108) and AS (standing for high altitude) where equiped with the mk108.

I know Oleq has done a great job and to model every variant would be impossible and maybe I am nitpicking on this. Just thought I drop a line of something that has bothered me since g6/as was introduced. Maybe Oleg intended to but GM1 in it and never got around to it yet.

Thanks.

JG53Frankyboy
12-20-2005, 01:10 PM
well , the GM1 has nothing to do in a Bf109G6/AS .

but yes, the ingame 6/AS is nothing "correct".

a pure 6/AS should have no MW50 , with MW50 it would be a 6/ASM .
BUT , the plane we have has no special highalt performance in comparison to the G6Late (without MW50) ore the G14.

the best would have been if maddox would have removed the MW50 long time ago and would have made a real 6/AS of early 1944 with worser performane low but better performance high than the G6Late.


oleg is always saying that he moddeld the hungarian build G14 . that had better performance than a german build one and had always MK108 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
sure it would be nice to have one of the late war german standart planes with its more common MG151/20 , well.................


and btw , thats all "beating an already dead horse" in these froums http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

FritzGryphon
12-20-2005, 01:17 PM
What does AS stand for, I wonder?

faustnik
12-20-2005, 01:18 PM
AS = <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">A</span> bigger <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">S</span>upercharger. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Ratsack
12-20-2005, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by GSCaptMorgan:
Can we please have the as designation removed from the G6/as

It does not have GM1 on it and is misleading,

IMHO, Not trying to cause a problems, but if it is supposed to be a high altitude fighter. There by getting the AS designation, it should be equiped with GM1

Also if you could rename the the G-14 to G-14/u4
which was the command variant. Carried extra radios and was also equiped with GM1. The g-14 like many of the 109s came with only a 20m standard. The U4 (standing for mk108) and AS (standing for high altitude) where equiped with the mk108.

I know Oleq has done a great job and to model every variant would be impossible and maybe I am nitpicking on this. Just thought I drop a line of something that has bothered me since g6/as was introduced. Maybe Oleg intended to but GM1 in it and never got around to it yet.

Thanks.

Cap€n,

The AS designation refers to the installation of the DB605AS motor, which had the larger supercharger developed (I believe) from the DB603 engine. It required the larger, smoothed-out cowling bulge that you see on the in-game G-6/AS, G-10 and K-4. Some AS motors also had the MW50 water methanol injection system, and these were designated DB605ASM.

The GM1 was nitrous oxide injection (GM stood for Goering€s Mixture), and was fitted to Bf109Gs as factory conversion 2 (Umrust Bausatze 2), or U2. Bf109G-6s fitted with this system were therefore Bf109G-6/U2s. This system provided extra power at high altitudes.

From late 1943 / early 1944 some G6s were equipped with MW50. The DB605A fitted with MW50 was called the DB605AM, and aircraft fitted with these motors were also issued under the designation U2. The MW50 provided extra power below 6,000 m, and extra cooling (though no extra power) above that altitude.

The G-14 was meant to have MW50 as standard, so (in theory) all Bf109G-14s were powered with the DB605AM or DB605ASM motors. It is this later type that gives rise to the view that the Bf109G-6/AS in the game is actually a G-14/AS. Note, however, that the G-14 was not issued until about mid-1944, so it DOES NOT FOLLOW that every G-6 with MW50 is necessarily a G-14. It may be a G-6/U2 delivered before the G-14 was rolled out.

Confused yet? Good.

In summary, the AS designation had nothing to do with the GM1, or with high altitude performance per se. It referred to the bigger supercharger fitted to the DB605AS motor, and subsequently used on the DB605D engines used on the G-10 and K-4. From memory, I think the bigger supercharger may even have been two-stage, but I€m not sure about that. Butch 2K would know for sure, and he€d also be able to elaborate on the story above.

Ratsack

Bussard_1
12-20-2005, 08:44 PM
Fritz,
A for DB605 A, S for Sonderer{spelling?} meaning special.
In other words, a special (modified) DB605A.

JG53Frankyboy
12-21-2005, 02:57 AM
the AS engine was a high altitude engine .
its was rated around 7800m ! an "normal" 605A was rated about 5800m.

nice overview here
http://w1.1861.telia.com/~u186104874/db605.htm

so it could keep its max power output to a much higher altitude than the 605s with the smaler supercharger.

the only two stage supercharger 605 was the DB605L . all other had this single stage, barometric controleed hydraulic driven sinlge stage charger. if it was the small original or the bigger from the DB603

and to repeat:
it would be fantastic to have such a high altitude rated Bf109G6/AS (without MW50) for early 1944 to fight with the P-51B in the bik week http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
in the moment i use this plane to avoid the MK108 overkill in the late Bf109s http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Abbuzze
12-21-2005, 06:24 AM
Originally posted by Bussard_1:
Fritz,
A for DB605 A, S for Sonderer{spelling?} meaning special.
In other words, a special (modified) DB605A.
In fact the "S" in the DB605AS means spezial - special http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif The idea behind this was a DB605A with a special charger.

GSCaptMorgan
12-21-2005, 08:09 PM
I am sorry guys you are right

G-1 (Pressurized fighter)
G-1/R2 (Lightened high altitude fighter - GM1, and armor removed); G-1/U2 (High altitude fighter with GM1); G-1 Trop (Never actually existed a €œmade up€ version);

G-2 (Light fighter)

I confused the g6/u2 with the g/6as
G-2/R1 (Fighter-bomber- 2 underwing drop tanks, extra tail wheel); G-2/R2 (Reconnaissance fighter); G-2 Trop (Tropicalized fighter);

G-3 (Pressurized fighter); - based on G-1 with new radio equipment; only 50 built
G-4 (Reconnaissance fighter)
G-4/R2 (Reconnaissance fighter); G-4/R3 (Reconnaissance fighter); G-4 Trop (Tropicalized Reconnaissance fighter); G-4/U3 (Reconnaissance fighter with MW50); G-4y (Command fighter);

G-5 (Pressurized fighter)
G-5/U2 (High altitude fighter with GM1 boost); G-5/U3 (Fitted with MW-50); G-5/AS (High altitude fighter with DB605AS); G-5y (Command fighter);

G-6 (Light fighter)
G-6/R2 4x 50kg wing bombs(fighter bomber), two rockets (heavy fighter); G-6/R3 (Reconnaissance fighter); G-6/R6 (Heavy fighter - two additional 20 mm guns); G-6 Trop (Tropicalized fighter); G-6/U2 (Fitted with GM-1); G-6/U3 (Fitted with MW-50); G-6/U4 (MK108 30 mm engine cannon); G-6y (Command fighter); G-6/AS (High altitude fighter with DB605AS); G-6/ASy (High altitude command fighter); G-6N (Night fighter); usually with R6 and FuG 350Z Naxos; G-6/U4 N: as G-6N but with 30 mm MK 108 engine cannon

G-8 (Reconnaissance fighter);
Armed with only the 30 mmm MK 108 engine cannon, standard drop tank installation

G-10 (Light fighter with DB605D/DM/DBM engine)
G-10/R5 (Reconnaissance fighter); G-10/R6 (Heavy fighter - two additional 20 mm guns); G-10/AS (High altitude fighter with DB605ASM); G-10/U4 (Fitted with MK 108 30 mm engine cannon);

G-12 (Two-seat trainer); built from older G-1/G-5 usually with R3 (300l drop tank)
G-14 (Light fighter, evolution of G-6)
G-14/R6 (Heavy fighter - two additional 20 mm guns); G-14/AS (High altitude fighter with DB605ASM); G-14/ASy (High altitude command fighter); G-14y (Command fighter); G-14/U4 (Fitted with MK 108 30 mm engine cannon)

G-16 (Fighter Bomber); based on G14 with additional armor - production started but soon after war was over

Most common Umbausatz numbers
U1 special propeller; U2 GM1 boost; U3 MW50 boost; U4 30 mm MK108 engine cannon

Common Rüstsatz numbers
R1 belly bomb rack for 250 or 500 kg bomb
R2 wing bomb racks for 4x50 kg bombs or 2xWGr21 rockets (G-1 to G-4:recon equipment)
R3 belly drop tank (300l)
R4 two 30 mm MK108 underwing gunpods
R6 two 20 mm MG151/20 underwing gunpods

Fighters with U2 had gm1, My mistake.

But yes the as is still the wrong designation IMHO

Ratsack
12-21-2005, 10:59 PM
Originally posted by GSCaptMorgan:
I am sorry guys you are right

...
Most common Umbausatz numbers
U1 special propeller; U2 GM1 boost; U3 MW50 boost; U4 30 mm MK108 engine cannon

...

Fighters with U2 had gm1, My mistake.

IMHO

FWIW

I remember Butch2K saying that the MW50 was also issued under the designation U2, and that the only way to be sure from a photograph is the different stoff triangles.

Ratsack

Kurfurst__
12-22-2005, 06:04 AM
The G-6/AS had MW50 installed in some cases, but it was not stanard on all planes. It was on G-14/AS. There was no /ASM designation.

The AS stands for the AS or ASM engine.

A = DB 605 A
S = 'Sonder' = Special. The AS, ASM, ASB/ASC, DM, DB/DC engines had the larger supercharger from the big cousin DB 603 G installed.
the M letter stands for MW50 injection, however ASB/ASC, DB/DC had this as standard... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

The AS and ASM engine had the SAME altitude performance, it's only the ASM had more power below rated because of MW50 boost compared to the AS.

The G-14/U4 was not a command version. /u4 designated the hub cannon was 30mm MK 108, not the basic MG 151/20.

GM-1 was standard fit on the 109G-1 and G-3, the others not expect special models converted for GM-1.

Simply the in-game G-6/AS is one of those G-6/AS that had MW50 fitted, too.

Vike
12-26-2005, 01:04 AM
Very interesting thread! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Thanks to you all for these infos! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

@+

ImpStarDuece
12-26-2005, 06:33 AM
Your all very knowledgable, and all very wrong http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif .

The 'AS' designation stands for "Achtung Spitfeuer!" It was put in 109s to give them a better chance of running away from the eliptic wingd wonders http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

The 'LF' designation on Spitfires actually stands for "Looks Fast", and the "'HF' designation stands for "Hardly Friendly". http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Ratsack
12-30-2005, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
The G-6/AS had MW50 installed in some cases, but it was not stanard on all planes. It was on G-14/AS. There was no /ASM designation.

The AS stands for the AS or ASM engine.

A = DB 605 A
S = 'Sonder' = Special. The AS, ASM, ASB/ASC, DM, DB/DC engines had the larger supercharger from the big cousin DB 603 G installed.
the M letter stands for MW50 injection, however ASB/ASC, DB/DC had this as standard... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

The AS and ASM engine had the SAME altitude performance, it's only the ASM had more power below rated because of MW50 boost compared to the AS.

The G-14/U4 was not a command version. /u4 designated the hub cannon was 30mm MK 108, not the basic MG 151/20.

GM-1 was standard fit on the 109G-1 and G-3, the others not expect special models converted for GM-1.

Simply the in-game G-6/AS is one of those G-6/AS that had MW50 fitted, too.

Kurfust,

Do you know what the precise differences are between the AS, ASB & ASC motors? Do 109s fitted with the ASB & ASC display the small bulges just below and in front of the exhausts, like planes powered by the 605D?

Ratsack

Ratsack
01-03-2006, 12:13 AM
Bump.

Kurfurst or Butch2K in the house?

Ratsack

Thijs_JG3
01-03-2006, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by Ratsack:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
The G-6/AS had MW50 installed in some cases, but it was not stanard on all planes. It was on G-14/AS. There was no /ASM designation.

The AS stands for the AS or ASM engine.

A = DB 605 A
S = 'Sonder' = Special. The AS, ASM, ASB/ASC, DM, DB/DC engines had the larger supercharger from the big cousin DB 603 G installed.
the M letter stands for MW50 injection, however ASB/ASC, DB/DC had this as standard... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

The AS and ASM engine had the SAME altitude performance, it's only the ASM had more power below rated because of MW50 boost compared to the AS.

The G-14/U4 was not a command version. /u4 designated the hub cannon was 30mm MK 108, not the basic MG 151/20.

GM-1 was standard fit on the 109G-1 and G-3, the others not expect special models converted for GM-1.

Simply the in-game G-6/AS is one of those G-6/AS that had MW50 fitted, too.

Kurfust,

Do you know what the precise differences are between the AS, ASB & ASC motors? Do 109s fitted with the ASB & ASC display the small bulges just below and in front of the exhausts, like planes powered by the 605D?

Ratsack </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Although I€m not Kurfust or Butch2k I€ll try to answer your question *

In Jochen Prien€s book about the 109F, G and K series . ( Jochen Prien and Peter Rodeike, Messerchmitt Bf 109 F,G & K Series ( second print; USA) ISBN:0-88740-424-3)
The changes are being stated as follow: Because of the larger supercharger ( of the DB603) the engine required modified engine bearers which forced a small change to the 109€s nose, including the small bulges in front and below the exhaust (like seen on the G14/AS, G10 and the K4) and much smoother fearings over the engine bearers and mg131 ammunition feeds.(Information from page 111-113 and 178-181 out of the book stated above)

Some other information about the differences between the DB and DC designations in the DB605 engines taken from the book: Jane's Fighting Aircraft of World War II ( Jane's Fighting Aircraft of World War II (London 1989) 291 ISBN: 1-851-70493-0 ) gives a short description of the Daimler Benz DB 605 DB and DC:

€œ Similar in general construction to the DB605 A but fitted with supercharger of increased diameter€¦€

Some technical details about engine performance which aren€t too interesting for your question, but then a note which might answer your question.
€œ€¦ Note: The additional letter after the sub-type letter is used to signify the following: €œS€ denotes a special engine, €œB€ is used when the power has been increased by a higher boost pressure and 87 Octane Fuel with Methanol injection, €œC€ is used when the power has been increased by a higher boost pressure and 96 Octane fuel with methanol injection.€

Although I€m not completely sure if the DB605 ASB and DB605 ASC engine were ever build ( I couldn€t find any reference to them in my books) I would suggest that the same octane levels were used as in the DB605 DB and respectively the DB605 DC engines.

Ratsack
01-03-2006, 05:17 PM
Right. That's interesting. I didn't know that C3 fuel was ever used on the DB605 motors.

Thanks for that.

Ratsack

La7_brook
01-06-2006, 05:04 AM
bf109g6/as had DB605 AS engines and the propeller was replaced with the VDM 9-12159 version, featuring slighty wider blades there main task was to hunt american escort fighters and given too JG/1 in FEBRUARY 1944

Thijs_JG3
01-07-2006, 07:19 AM
Originally posted by La7_brook:
bf109g6/as had DB605 AS engines and the propeller was replaced with the VDM 9-12159 version, featuring slighty wider blades there main task was to hunt american escort fighters and given too JG/1 in FEBRUARY 1944

You€re right about the changes in propeller type, from the VDM 9-12087 to the VDM 9-12159.

I do wonder where you got the information from that JG1 received some Bf109 G-6/AS as early as in February 1944, could you please tell your reference for that?
In both Prien€s book about the Bf109 F, G and K book ( Jochen Prien and Peter Rodeike, Messerchmitt Bf 109 F,G & K Series ( second print; USA) ISBN:0-88740-424-3 ) 113 )
and Eric Mombeek€s book about JG1 ( Eric Mombeek, Reichsverteidigung Die Geschichte des Jagdgeschwaders 1 €œOesau€ ( Norfolk 1993) 278) the first Bf109G-6/AS was lost on the 8th of May 1944 Feldwebel Felix Karenitz of the 8th Staffel of JG1( in Bf109G-6/AS werknummer 20629 flying with radio code Black 5) was killed in a fight with P47€s near Dedelsdorf..
In Mombeek€s book on page 222 one can read about the operational strength of JG1 on the sixth of march 1944 which tells the following: Stab JG1: 3 BF109G-6€s , I./JG1 II./JG1 19 Fw190A-7€s and III./JG1 with 13 BF109G-6 and G-5€s. This indicates that there were no BF109G-6/AS at the time with JG1 so the first BF109G-6/AS were delivered to JG1 after the sixth of march.

La7_brook
01-07-2006, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by Thijs_JG3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by La7_brook:
bf109g6/as had DB605 AS engines and the propeller was replaced with the VDM 9-12159 version, featuring slighty wider blades there main task was to hunt american escort fighters and given too JG/1 in FEBRUARY 1944

You€re right about the changes in propeller type, from the VDM 9-12087 to the VDM 9-12159.

I do wonder where you got the information from that JG1 received some Bf109 G-6/AS as early as in February 1944, could you please tell your reference for that?
In both Prien€s book about the Bf109 F, G and K book ( Jochen Prien and Peter Rodeike, Messerchmitt Bf 109 F,G & K Series ( second print; USA) ISBN:0-88740-424-3 ) 113 )
and Eric Mombeek€s book about JG1 ( Eric Mombeek, Reichsverteidigung Die Geschichte des Jagdgeschwaders 1 €œOesau€ ( Norfolk 1993) 278) the first Bf109G-6/AS was lost on the 8th of May 1944 Feldwebel Felix Karenitz of the 8th Staffel of JG1( in Bf109G-6/AS werknummer 20629 flying with radio code Black 5) was killed in a fight with P47€s near Dedelsdorf..
In Mombeek€s book on page 222 one can read about the operational strength of JG1 on the sixth of march 1944 which tells the following: Stab JG1: 3 BF109G-6€s , I./JG1 II./JG1 19 Fw190A-7€s and III./JG1 with 13 BF109G-6 and G-5€s. This indicates that there were no BF109G-6/AS at the time with JG1 so the first BF109G-6/AS were delivered to JG1 after the sixth of march. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> thats from Graf @ grislawski 8/JG 1 ALFRED GRISLAWSKI

La7_brook
01-07-2006, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by La7_brook:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Thijs_JG3:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by La7_brook:
bf109g6/as had DB605 AS engines and the propeller was replaced with the VDM 9-12159 version, featuring slighty wider blades there main task was to hunt american escort fighters and given too JG/1 in FEBRUARY 1944

You€re right about the changes in propeller type, from the VDM 9-12087 to the VDM 9-12159.

I do wonder where you got the information from that JG1 received some Bf109 G-6/AS as early as in February 1944, could you please tell your reference for that?
In both Prien€s book about the Bf109 F, G and K book ( Jochen Prien and Peter Rodeike, Messerchmitt Bf 109 F,G & K Series ( second print; USA) ISBN:0-88740-424-3 ) 113 )
and Eric Mombeek€s book about JG1 ( Eric Mombeek, Reichsverteidigung Die Geschichte des Jagdgeschwaders 1 €œOesau€ ( Norfolk 1993) 278) the first Bf109G-6/AS was lost on the 8th of May 1944 Feldwebel Felix Karenitz of the 8th Staffel of JG1( in Bf109G-6/AS werknummer 20629 flying with radio code Black 5) was killed in a fight with P47€s near Dedelsdorf..
In Mombeek€s book on page 222 one can read about the operational strength of JG1 on the sixth of march 1944 which tells the following: Stab JG1: 3 BF109G-6€s , I./JG1 II./JG1 19 Fw190A-7€s and III./JG1 with 13 BF109G-6 and G-5€s. This indicates that there were no BF109G-6/AS at the time with JG1 so the first BF109G-6/AS were delivered to JG1 after the sixth of march. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> thats from Graf @ grislawski 8/JG 1 ALFRED GRISLAWSKI was posted to paderborn /but i see that there first mission 9 of apirl / pg 218