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Ritter_Cuda
01-25-2005, 08:39 AM
I was in a HL last night. Flew out, got shot down.
(happen in a few seconds still :-) .so I deside with my engine burning to bail out. There I am hang out watching the dog fights. Trying to learn a little more. When a plane moves over and shoots me. It was on perpose. Now my question is this something that happens alot? It seem like a cheep shot to me. but hey i'm new
Cuda

Ritter_Cuda
01-25-2005, 08:39 AM
I was in a HL last night. Flew out, got shot down.
(happen in a few seconds still :-) .so I deside with my engine burning to bail out. There I am hang out watching the dog fights. Trying to learn a little more. When a plane moves over and shoots me. It was on perpose. Now my question is this something that happens alot? It seem like a cheep shot to me. but hey i'm new
Cuda

Bikewer
01-25-2005, 08:42 AM
Kind of annoying, but it saves you the long trip down....

I hate it when ground units shoot me on the way down.

cueceleches
01-25-2005, 09:35 AM
Oh yeah! And Flak also! It´s kind of frightening when 88 shells and 20mm start bursting all around you if you bail out near an enemy airbase!!

As for other people shooting at parachutes...well, I personally would never waste my ammo shooting at those.

TacticalYak3
01-25-2005, 09:58 AM
It's another way of showing respect. I have been guilty of being very (very) respectful at times. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

R_Mutt
01-25-2005, 10:22 AM
I say the pilot is fair game until that chute opens. Their is nothing funnier than shooting a belly flopper fresh out of the cockpit.

Shooting someone in the chute is very unsportsman like.

VW-IceFire
01-25-2005, 10:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ritter_Cuda:
I was in a HL last night. Flew out, got shot down.
(happen in a few seconds still :-) .so I deside with my engine burning to bail out. There I am hang out watching the dog fights. Trying to learn a little more. When a plane moves over and shoots me. It was on perpose. Now my question is this something that happens alot? It seem like a cheep shot to me. but hey i'm new
Cuda <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It happens. I consider it a dishonorable thing to do and avoid it at all times. I will shoot down my target, type S! into the chat window (short for salute!) to salute their valiant effort, and then continue on fighting. I have never shot a chute on purpose...although some guys have been so irritating that I was tempted to. Its a personal thing...in WWII it did happen so there is some historical precedent.

NL_snake_eye_NL
01-25-2005, 10:29 AM
hi all

I think it's low to shoot someone while hangin on parachute! even in the war pilots had respect for each other, I know also there where pilots who shoot at bailed pilots. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif but that's war.

But stil I find it low to shoot at someone while he's hangin on his chute!

greetz snake eye

Taylortony
01-25-2005, 10:36 AM
I have been known to give the odd one a squirt when its either him of me..

colliding with them often results in him getting his Angels wings early and me loosing mine.... so I help his descent up and retain my wings... Not nice i know but war isn't and I do take the view it is a bit low...

cueceleches
01-25-2005, 10:36 AM
Well, I guess that even it is not fair, a dead pilot is a pilot that will not return to fight another day...but this obviously does not apply in the game. Even if war is war, it still disgusts me.

Chuck_Older
01-25-2005, 10:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NL_snake_eye_NL:
hi all

I think it's low to shoot someone while hangin on parachute! even in the war pilots had respect for each other, I know also there where pilots who shoot at bailed pilots. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif but that's war.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

While it may be indeed 'low', your concept of air warfare is very romaticised

Albert Ball, WWI ace, on hearing of the Red Baron's death:

"I hope he roasted the whole way down."

Not particularly respectful.

In WWII, war had become "total war". That meant- kill the enemy. Soldiering is not about being fair. It is about doing the other guy before he can do it to you. In the back is good: less risk for you. While asleep is better, and completely helpless is best

I had read many accounts of US pilots who were asked by squadmates: why didn't you blast that Gerry while he was in his 'chute? I woulda! Don't want that b@stard coming back for more

Karl Doenitz, Grand Admiral and architect of the Ubootswaffe, was sentenced for war crimes because of rules of engagment he instituted during the war. Allied planes would attack U-boats even as they were conducting rescue operations, to save crews of ships they torpedoed

Doenitz issued a 'no prisoner' type of order. he got tried for war crimes

In the same war, "mush" Morton, skipper of the USS Wahoo, machine gunned Imperial Japanese Marines who were survivors of an attack he made on their transport. He ordered his men to wipe them out while the Japanese were in the water, clinging to wreckage

Only difference is Morton wasn't accused of being wrong about it

WWII was not a gentlemen's affair at all

FRAGAL
01-25-2005, 10:44 AM
it's pure respect and etiquette don't do it, i consider it the same as kill stealing another definite no no

VF51_Flatspin
01-25-2005, 10:45 AM
If it's a scripted server where number of pilots counts and he's bailing in his own territory -- I might shoot him in his chute.

In RL WWII and I knew I'd see him later that day or on another -- I'd take every opportunity.

Used to tick me off when it happened, now I just laugh, shake my head, and go get a smoke or a beer.

geetarman
01-25-2005, 10:52 AM
It's a waste of precious ammo.

Signed: A four-gunned P-51B pilot http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Catandra
01-25-2005, 11:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
In WWII, war had become "total war". That meant- kill the enemy. Soldiering is not about being fair. It is about doing the other guy before he can do it to you. In the back is good: less risk for you. While asleep is better, and completely helpless is best

I had read many accounts of US pilots who were asked by squadmates: why didn't you blast that Gerry while he was in his 'chute? I woulda! Don't want that b@stard coming back for more

Karl Doenitz, Grand Admiral and architect of the Ubootswaffe, was sentenced for war crimes because of rules of engagment he instituted during the war. Allied planes would attack U-boats even as they were conducting rescue operations, to save crews of ships they torpedoed

Doenitz issued a 'no prisoner' type of order. he got tried for war crimes

In the same war, "mush" Morton, skipper of the USS Wahoo, machine gunned Imperial Japanese Marines who were survivors of an attack he made on their transport. He ordered his men to wipe them out while the Japanese were in the water, clinging to wreckage

Only difference is Morton wasn't accused of being wrong about it

WWII was not a gentlemen's affair at all <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's very true Chuck...

A good book to read on this is "Flyboys" by James Bradley. It documents the many atrocities perpetrated by both sides, Japanese and American in the Pacific Theater. Both sides were known to machine gun pilots in parachutes and those that were floating in the water.

Da_Godfatha
01-25-2005, 11:43 AM
It also depends on WHERE the pilot bailed out. I have read that during the Battle of Britain, a bailed out German pilot was considered a prisoner, were as a RAF pilot was STILL considered a combative. BTW, if a Allied pilot was caught gunning a enemy pilot, IT would be considered against the Geneva Convention.

But, during the Bismark Sea, Allied crews gunned Japanese soldiers in the water.

We also gave to remember, that the Victors write the History books and send the Losers before WarCrimes Tribunals.

Inadaze
01-25-2005, 11:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

Albert Ball, WWI ace, on hearing of the Red Baron's death:

"I hope he roasted the whole way down."
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Just being a picky soandso

That was Mick Mannock, Ball died a year before Richtofen.

Chuck_Older
01-25-2005, 12:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Inadaze:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

Albert Ball, WWI ace, on hearing of the Red Baron's death:

"I hope he roasted the whole way down."
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Just being a picky soandso

That was Mick Mannock, Ball died a year before Richtofen. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why'd I think it was Ball?? Too many dead brain cells

Mannock was blind in one eye, is he the one?

Thanks for the correction http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

buz13
01-25-2005, 01:34 PM
Some on-line hosts determine the winners by number of pilots and aircraft left. So it would seem to me you need to kill pilots in aircraft or chutes.....if you want to win the game. If you know somebody is going to shoot the chutes you just wait till the last possible moment to open yours....sort of like the "last pull" contests we had when I was skydiving....never had the guts to win one of those....

BlitzPig_Frat
01-25-2005, 01:34 PM
You all and your self ordained "honor", It makes me laugh...no really. Anyway, I was not the guy who shot him, but I was in that server that night laughing at his tirade of sniffling, and I see this often which is why I am commenting.

A Scripted server tracks planes killed AND pilots killed, for a reason. If your pansy a**ed fake honor is prone to damage, don't fly a scripted server, It's as simple as that. I will shoot every single parachute I see in a scripted server, period. Why? It's the object of....wait for it....the game!!!!!

You know, some of you take this a little too far. 98% of you proclaiming honor have no earthly concept of what it is, nor have you put on a uniform and attempted to earn it. So don't preach to me from your pulpit, ever...

Ritter_Cuda
01-25-2005, 01:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BlitzPig_Frat:
You all and your self ordained "honor", It makes me laugh...no really. Anyway, I was not the guy who shot him, but I was in that server that night laughing at his tirade of sniffling, and I see this often which is why I am commenting.

A Scripted server tracks planes killed AND pilots killed, for a reason. If your pansy a**ed fake honor is prone to damage, don't fly a scripted server, It's as simple as that. I will shoot every single parachute I see in a scripted server, period. Why? It's the object of....wait for it....the game!!!!!

You know, some of you take this a little too far. 98% of you proclaiming honor have no earthly concept of what it is, nor have you put on a uniform and attempted to earn it. So don't preach to me from your pulpit, ever... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
hmm it was not me I did not type a word simple hit the re-fly button and played on. yes it is a game so i'm still learning the rules. so i waited and made a post here.
sorry It seems to get your tail in a knot. but you don't learnif you don't ask.
cuda

Chuck_Older
01-25-2005, 02:15 PM
Who said anything about it being honorable or not? Was something editted out?

Da_Godfatha
01-25-2005, 02:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BlitzPig_Frat:

You know, some of you take this a little too far. 98% of you proclaiming honor have no earthly concept of what it is, nor have you put on a uniform and attempted to earn it. So don't preach to me from your pulpit, ever... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you don*t know me or any other members here personaly, I suggest you be very careful of your comments. Your last comment was totaly uncalled for.

FRAGAL
01-25-2005, 02:46 PM
i certainly said nothing about honor, just about simple respect for others in the same game

SeaFireLIV
01-25-2005, 02:53 PM
In 2 years or so of flying I`ve not shot down anyone in the chute, Human or AI even. But, it happened in reality by all sides. There was one time online when I was killed in my chute and the cocky git said, "Where are you going?"

I spent 10 minutes looking for him to shoot him in his chute. Never found him. That was a one-off for me....

Sometimes I wonder if Oleg will surprise us by having the AI have a go at shooting the player in his chute one day!

gbollin
01-25-2005, 03:27 PM
Shooting someone bailing from a crippled palne
is low. Being retired US Army Shooting someone
bailing out of a crippled plane could bring criminal charges. While shooting airborn troops parachuting into an objective is legal.

FF_Trozaka
01-25-2005, 03:33 PM
depends on the situation. if it is just a friendly dogfight or something, no , i would not shoot at a chute. If it was an online war or something where points were awarded for getting a kill, absolutely i will shoot at the chute &gt;http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
All's fair in love and war!

S!

Badsight.
01-25-2005, 10:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by R_Mutt:
Shooting someone in the chute is very unsportsman like. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
BAH

nothing more fun than taking out the chute & letting the little guy fall

seriously , its fun

faustnik
01-25-2005, 10:18 PM
Badsight and I disagree on this one. I think chute shooting is a real loser move.

Yeah, so I'm oldschool. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

Krt_Bong
01-26-2005, 07:08 AM
During the Battle of Britain, there were many Poles and Czechs serving with the RAF. When German planes were shot down and the crews bailed, many times these pilots also shot down the parachutes because oftentimes they'd be rescued in the channel to fight again. The Poles had a beef with the Germans who had occupied their country and committed many attrocities, there was an unwritten rule among the RAF pilots that considered this un-sporting. However the Czechs and Poles didn't consider this as being a game with rules

DuxCorvan
01-26-2005, 08:07 AM
1) In real life it was also considered low and dishonorable, but it was done anyway. Garc*a Morato, one of best known Spanish Nationalist aces during SCW, had to protect a bailed-out comrade against an allied Italian pilot that, in the midst of confusion, thought he was a chuting Republican and tried to shoot him once and again.

2) Since it can be done, it will be done. That's how it works in real life, and that's how it works in any game. Hosts decide the rules.

3) Mick Mannock had good reasons to hate the foes. As a civilian that worked in Turkey for a British communication company, he was captured by Turkish troops, and vexed and tortured almost to death. He had a personal thirst for revenge.

TacticalYak3
01-26-2005, 08:29 AM
As most of us know this issue gets debated from time to time.

I have and will continue to shoot down parachutes. It's a game, what's all this talk about honour? We're dealing with virtual reality not reality itself? Laugh a little mates!

Now, for some clarification. If I'm on a public server I consider it a privilege, and I follow ALL the posted rules. Can't remember when shooting a pilot has ever been mentioned however.

Now, as a game with a scripted DF mission whose goal is eliminating a certain number of planes OR PILOTS doesn't it make sense to reduce the other side's pilot count?

Having said that, I can't remember shooting any parachutes down OUTSIDE of squad-based servers/missions primarily because, quite frankly, there are way too many folks out there that take everything to heart.

Whatever the situation, shooting down parachutes is risky business as one must often turn and fly low (lower) while other bandits are still in the combat area.

I can remember some rather fun times after a long heated battle with other squad members, where I have shot down a mate's plane and then shot his parachute. I can also remember being on the receiving end of this too! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

There have been a few times too where an AI has really pounded me only for me to reverse the situation and shoot his plane and chute down as a little thank-you for his efforts.

Did I mention that it is only a game? Maybe if we were so concerned about honour we wouldn't waste so much time playing silly computer games and do some more "honourable" things like watching lots of tv? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

TactS!

VMF-112_Turret
01-26-2005, 08:36 AM
The Japanese didn't have any regulation of not allowed to kill people who can't defend them selves. It was a dishonor for a Japanese to return home alive & not kill a enemy. If a Jap was in a situation that he can decide to let the parachute live & return home with the shame that he failed to kill an enemy or kill the parachute & return home with honor that he killed an enemy.

Kill the Japs because they have no honor in the eyes of Americans & Europeans. It won't work trying to teach the Japs in World War 2 that the way of Samurai is wrong & is only shame when the entire Japanese military was built on the way of Samurai Warrior.

TgD Thunderbolt56
01-26-2005, 08:46 AM
I agree with R_Mutt. "popping" a guy falling without an opened chute is hard...and good sport. I liken it to shooting skeet.

I also agree this is a game and if honor mattered, there wouldn't be vulching, kill-stealing, TK'ers etc,... The only one you have to answer to is yourself (or the host if it's listed as against the server rules)

Bottom line...read the server rules and follow your own conscience.


TB

Daiichidoku
01-26-2005, 12:28 PM
Funny how cannon shells explode on contact with para silk...or ramming a pilot or chute will explode your plane

Or if you bail from a flat spinning plane a still turning prop wont chew you up


Speaking of props, too bad its missing DM in FB...you can do a headon and one plane will take off your rudder, yet neither planes props are affected...silly

NORAD_Zooly10
01-26-2005, 12:49 PM
sh*t happens, as a rule its not something i do (even to the vulching scumbags). i think i have only ever done it once but i do remember being in a scripted battle and i admit i was kind of shocked at this happeneing and people saying things like 'alls fair' etc...
there was a US pilot (his name i forget), he saw a German pilot shooting at his fellow downed pilots, he was shocked at this and followed the plane, made sure the pilot bailed and emptied his guns into him. I guess it was done in real life but THIS IS NOT REAL LIFE, we arent fighting for any country or idealism (being ambiguous purposefully) so how about a code of conduct/honour?
~S~
Zooly

Chuck_Older
01-26-2005, 12:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VMF-112_Turret:
The Japanese didn't have any regulation of not allowed to kill people who can't defend them selves. It was a dishonor for a Japanese to return home alive & not kill a enemy. If a Jap was in a situation that he can decide to let the parachute live & return home with the shame that he failed to kill an enemy or kill the parachute & return home with honor that he killed an enemy.

Kill the Japs because they have no honor in the eyes of Americans & Europeans. It won't work trying to teach the Japs in World War 2 that the way of Samurai is wrong & is only shame when the entire Japanese military was built on the way of Samurai Warrior. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you sure you understand the WWII Japanese menatlity and/or Bushido? Just asking, because you're touching on most stereotypes of Imperial Japan.

I won't question that most Japanese military training was brutal and de-humanising. But I do question it's being based on Bushido

t0n.
01-26-2005, 01:06 PM
I don't strafe chutes (I need all the ammo I can get coz I suck) but I've got no problem with chute strafing. If anything it adds to the general chaotic atmosphere.

Getting upset about it is really sad though. There is quite literally NO HARM DONE.

ednavar
01-26-2005, 01:32 PM
Guess it all come down to how you relate to the game, as many other issues regarding realism.

If you enjoy the role playing aspect then shooting chutes depends on a sort of "virtual" ethic.. if you don't mind the immersion factor and just like the competition, well, go for it if there is a pilots count.

It is just more fun when these two different kind of players don't mix too much imho

S!

BlitzPig_Frat
01-26-2005, 02:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Da_Godfatha:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BlitzPig_Frat:

You know, some of you take this a little too far. 98% of you proclaiming honor have no earthly concept of what it is, nor have you put on a uniform and attempted to earn it. So don't preach to me from your pulpit, ever... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you don*t know me or any other members here personaly, I suggest you be very careful of your comments. Your last comment was totaly uncalled for. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You quote me but didn't read it, typical chest beater. Tell me hero, is there a 98% in there or a 100%? Save the ominous doom and gloom for somebody who would be impressed.

Yimmy
01-26-2005, 03:00 PM
Think I may as well add my two pence to the fire...

Firstly, in regard to, "While shooting airborn troops parachuting into an objective is legal." I amy be mistaken, but I am almost certain that as by i think the Geneva Convention, shooting any man while parachuting is illegal and a war crime - even paratroopers. Of course, it is but a wet-dream to think that all rules of the Geneva Convention are listened to! I think it is the Hague onvention for instance, which states it is illegal to (after bayoneting an enemy), to assist the withdrawel of the bayonet by discharging the rifle into them, however you are allowed to shootm then bayonet them.

Getting to the point of the game, as has been said before, it is but a game.
There is no honour to be found in playing this game - I would go as far to say that their is very little honour left in this world full stop.
There is nothing wrong with straffing little pixels attached to parachutes - there is nothing wrong with shooting down an enemy aircraft which someone else has already damaged (Or kill stealing as some odd people call it) - there is nothing wrong with shooting people taking off or landing (or vulching) etc etc.

That said, when you are playing on a server which somebody else has been nice enough to create, it is only polite as to play by their rules. After all, there is nothing stopping people from being polite when playing on the internet is there... if the host or general concensus is that in the server they would appreciate no straffing of chutes, then dont do it. It isnt rocket science, it isnt even Beagle.

EnGaurde
01-26-2005, 04:40 PM
i think its a remarkable feat of mental acrobatics to liken real war situations to a computer game played online. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

sure, its romantic to think everyone shouts tally ho! and dives out of the sun to fisticuff it up with the enemy, and in the end fly off with a friendly wave, scarf trailing in the wind, but frankly noone gets hurt hmm?

i always think that if those were real bullets flying, how many people would even be up there???

So, how can true behaviour and real honour be mentioned when everyone packs up and goes home at the end? ie nobody leaves body parts in the cockpit, nobody suffer flack injuries, noone pi**es themselves out of sheer fright, there is no downside to flying and as such all kinds of life ending moves for the sake of the kill are executed.

i shoot chutes in this game. Would i in real life? Probably, but you wouldnt know till you actually had that point of no return staring you in the face.

Cloudy_
01-26-2005, 07:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EnGaurde:
i think its a remarkable feat of mental acrobatics to liken real war situations to a computer game played online. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

sure, its romantic to think everyone shouts tally ho! and dives out of the sun to fisticuff it up with the enemy, and in the end fly off with a friendly wave, scarf trailing in the wind, but frankly noone gets hurt hmm?

i always think that if those were real bullets flying, how many people would even be up there???

So, how can true behaviour and real honour be mentioned when everyone packs up and goes home at the end? ie nobody leaves body parts in the cockpit, nobody suffer flack injuries, noone pi**es themselves out of sheer fright, there is no downside to flying and as such all kinds of life ending moves for the sake of the kill are executed.

i shoot chutes in this game. Would i in real life? Probably, but you wouldnt know till you actually had that point of no return staring you in the face. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This of course is the decision that the participants in combat had to make. I have read many WWII memoirs and I would venture to say that such behaviour was learned. Replacements would probably start with a glamorous and idealistic view of combat. Veterans would more likely tend to kill taking a pragmatic view in that such behaviour would shorten the war. Having your friends killed around you would certainly help you to make the decision.

An example that comes to mind is a veteran US tank commander that matter-of-factly related that he disabled enemy armor with the first round and made sure that an HE round was quickly fired to kill the bailing crew. Bailing tank crews would also be regularly machine-gunned.

In a book that I recently read about the 345th Bomb group in the Pacific, survivors from ships sunk by the B-25's were regularly machine-gunned. Conversely, the Japanese did the same thing when they could.

I'll go out on a limb here and say that it seems to me that it would be much easier to make the decision to shoot or not shoot depending upon the degree of impersonality involved. When you are shooting at an aircraft, you are shooting at an object - not a living, breathing person. When the pilot bails, he is perhaps still an impersonal object - just a shape flying through the air and it would be easier to make the decision to kill him. However, would you still make the same decision if you were both standing on the ground, he was unarmed with his hands up and you had a pistol jammed in his stomach? Could you still pull the trigger? Perhaps this is where you would remember all your lost friends and this would facilitate your decision.

I can neither condemn nor condone such behaviour because I can't really say what I'd do in like circumstances. However, I would have to say that if the other side were winning, I would think twice about doing it... I would be interested to hear any real combat veterans' thoughts on the matter.

Luftwaffe_109
01-27-2005, 12:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Karl Doenitz, Grand Admiral and architect of the Ubootswaffe, was sentenced for war crimes because of rules of engagment he instituted during the war. Allied planes would attack U-boats even as they were conducting rescue operations, to save crews of ships they torpedoed

Doenitz issued a 'no prisoner' type of order. he got tried for war crimes
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just nit-picking, but what you say here is not completely true.

Grossadmiral Karl Donitz was convicted at the IMT in Nurembourg on Counts Two and Three (crimes against peace and war crimes) but acquited on Count One (conspiracy to wage agressive war).

Now, initially Donitz was indicted on charges that included ordering the indirect killing of survivors through the Laconia Order, which you mention. This called for the leaving of shiprwrecked survivors at sea (which came into effect after the incidents you mention where an American bomber attacked U-156 with her deck covered in rescued merchant survivors, a number of lifeboats full of survivors in tow and her guns covered with a white sheet containing a red cross) and could thus result in their deaths if they were not picked up by Allied warships in time. When the evidence was presented and the defense was concluded, those charges of violations of international law of submarine warfare were disregarded in the considerations of whether on not he was guilty of war crimes.

This is from the IMT judgment of Donitz:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>...The evidence further shows that the rescue provisions were not carried out and that the defendant [Donitz] ordered that they should not be carried out. The argument of the defence is that the security of the submarine is, as the first rule of the sea, paramount to rescue and that the development of aircraft made rescue impossible. This may be so, but the Protocol is explicit. If the commander cannot rescue, then under its terms he cannot sink a merchant vessel and should allow it to pass harmless before his periscope. The orders, then, prove Doenitz is guilty of a violation of the Protocol.

In view of all the facts proved and in particular of an order of the British Admiralty announced on the 8th May, 1940, according to which all vessels should be sunk at sight in the Skagerrak, and the answers to interrogatories by Admiral Nimitz stating that unrestricted submarine warfare was carried on in the Pacific Ocean by the United States from the first day that nation entered the war, the sentence of Doenitz is not assessed on the ground of his breaches of the international law of submarine warfare. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

However, if you want to know why Donitz was found to be guilty of war crimes by the IMT (from what I have read it was because of his involvement with the Commando Order), I suggest you read the entire transcript of his judgement here:

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/10-01-46.htm

(PS. It's a big transcript, so I suggest you use the "find" function to find the part of the judgement that deals specifically with Donitz).

Anyway, just clearing something up,
Best Regards.

Badsight.
01-27-2005, 12:26 AM
BUT IT's FUN !

pop the guy after you take his plane out of the air ! i mean you deserve it , he lost & belongs to you

i dont do it anytime peeps might get upset , but come on , let the starch outta your collars

do it to me too ! especially take out just my parachute & let the guy fall

its just too funny

Czunik
01-27-2005, 12:41 AM
There was funny thing in WarBirds - after bailing out you had a pistol with 12 9mm shells in hands and you could shoot at those who got near. It was almost imposible because while on chute you could only aim to the left and to the right - and there seemed to be serious bug in bullet trajectory - it seemed that speed of the plane (which you left) is added to the speed of the bullet.
It was quite fun anyway. I've hit 2 or 3 times enemy plane but it never did any noticable harm to it.

markiz26
01-27-2005, 02:06 AM
Can you actually kill a bailed out pilot by shooting at him and not the parachute?

pettera
01-27-2005, 02:26 AM
Shooting chutes is very low in my opinion.

In war I can understand it if the pilot might come back to kill you. Killing Hartman must have been a wet dream for most Soviet aviators. They would (and should) of course kill him in the chute if he jumped in german teritory.

In IL2 shooting chutes is just degrading. Don't do it in my opinion.

Petter

WUAF_Toad
01-27-2005, 02:59 AM
Extra points should be given for gibbing the pilot. Don't like to get shot on the way down... hit refly.

BlitzPig_Frat
01-27-2005, 03:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by markiz26:
Can you actually kill a bailed out pilot by shooting at him and not the parachute? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, you can destroy the chute itself and he falls to his death, or you can shoot the body itself and it goes limp in his harness. Or for real sport, shoot the guy before his chute deploys ala' clay pigeons or sporting clays. His lifeless body then does a nosedive into a delta and a chute never opens.

MGBurrows
01-27-2005, 04:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NL_snake_eye_NL:
hi all

I think it's low to shoot someone while hangin on parachute! even in the war pilots had respect for each other, I know also there where pilots who shoot at bailed pilots. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif but that's war.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

While it may be indeed 'low', your concept of air warfare is very romaticised

Albert Ball, WWI ace, on hearing of the Red Baron's death:

"I hope he roasted the whole way down."

Not particularly respectful.

In WWII, war had become "total war". That meant- kill the enemy. Soldiering is not about being fair. It is about doing the other guy before he can do it to you. In the back is good: less risk for you. While asleep is better, and completely helpless is best

I had read many accounts of US pilots who were asked by squadmates: why didn't you blast that Gerry while he was in his 'chute? I woulda! Don't want that b@stard coming back for more

Karl Doenitz, Grand Admiral and architect of the Ubootswaffe, was sentenced for war crimes because of rules of engagment he instituted during the war. Allied planes would attack U-boats even as they were conducting rescue operations, to save crews of ships they torpedoed

Doenitz issued a 'no prisoner' type of order. he got tried for war crimes

In the same war, "mush" Morton, skipper of the USS Wahoo, machine gunned Imperial Japanese Marines who were survivors of an attack he made on their transport. He ordered his men to wipe them out while the Japanese were in the water, clinging to wreckage

Only difference is Morton wasn't accused of being wrong about it

WWII was not a gentlemen's affair at all <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All valid points. However, it is viewed as ignominious and dishonorable. Not all men are honorable. Many of our pilots during the war were not warriors in the true sense of the term. They were citizen soldiers. They did not hold the view of a professional and often failed to understand that that guy on the other side was a soldier just like them, in the same place they were. They were all nazis as far as many of our soldiers were concerned.

This is why Gerd Barkhorn is my favorite Luftwaffe pilot of the Second World War:
During an engagement over the Ukraine Barkhorn had engaged and shot down a Soviet fighter - he shot down many Soviet fighters, nothing exceptional there, really. He noted, however, that the Russian pilot was not bailing out. He dove and pulled up next to the Soviet aircraft and observed that the pilot was conscious and unwounded. The Russian looked over, wide-eyed, doubtless having been told what monsters the Germans were. Barkhorn started frantically pointing at the rapidly approaching earth and pointing up. He wagged his wings and continued to gesture at the Russian to bail. Finally - and none-too-soon, either - the Russian got the hint - or screwed-up the courage - and opened his canopy to bail. Barkhorn pulled-out and orbited. He saw the Russian bail and saw his chute open. He continued to circle until he saw the Russian touch-down. He then departed.
That is a professional. That is noble. That is honor.

However, as for me: Matters who I'm playing. If I'm a VVS pilot then I won't hesitate to gun someone down in a chute. They were known for it. In fact, once a VVS pilot watched a German he had shot-down belly-in and get out and run into the bushes. Soviet infantry entered the area hunting for the German, but were having a hard time finding him. The VVS pilot actually landed, got out and ran to where the German was hiding, pounced on him and strangled him to death. He then returned to his plane, ran it up and took back off.
If I'm Luftwaffe I might gun-down bomber crews. They were occasionally known to do that.
If I'm British or American matters on the persona of the pilot I'm flying for.
Flying as me: Never.

MGBurrows
01-27-2005, 04:43 PM
Oh, yes, and Mr. Ball did not get his way. Manfred Von Ricthofen was dead before his not burning Fokker hit the ground. Ground fire from either an Australian Lewis gunner on one side or a Vickers Machinegun crew on the other hit him in the lower chest and exited the should next to the neck. Officially, credit was given to the Vickers crew.

MGBurrows
01-27-2005, 04:45 PM
Man! I'm having a bad time just now! Add "er" to "should" and read "shoulder".
Thank you.
Cripes!

unclehubert
01-27-2005, 06:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BlitzPig_Frat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by markiz26:
Can you actually kill a bailed out pilot by shooting at him and not the parachute? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, you can destroy the chute itself and he falls to his death, or you can shoot the body itself and it goes limp in his harness. Or for real sport, shoot the guy before his chute deploys ala' clay pigeons or sporting clays. His lifeless body then does a nosedive into a delta and a chute never opens. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL....Interesting that you're so well versed on how to do this nasty deed!! Sounds like you been doing a little experimenting laddie....LOL

Zeus-cat
01-27-2005, 10:14 PM
When I was in the USAF they told us that pilots and other aircrew in parachutes were NOT legitimate targets (aacording to the Geneva Convention???). Since they had bailed out of their aircraft and were in parachutes they were "defenseless". Paratroopers on the other hand are legitimate targets when in their parachutes as they are considred to be attacking the enemy once they leave the airplane.

Zeus-cat

Badsight.
01-27-2005, 10:52 PM
it wasnt the norm to shoot chuters in WW2

by far the most common feeling ive seen related in pilot interviews was that they were doing their duty & attacking enemy A/C

that it was a human they were out to kill wasnt what ive seen these old guys relate

except for Chuck Yager , that guy was a A-hole , he shot guys in their chute any chance he saw

Treetop64
01-27-2005, 11:34 PM
Um, Badsight, were you banned or something? Your numbers show that you only just recently joined the forum. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

BaldieJr
01-28-2005, 02:17 AM
I do volunteer work in my community and I shoot chutes.

If I'm on one of those servers where the briefing drones on about honour and gives me 42 rules to adhere to, I don't shoot them... I get their canopy with my wingtip.

Tobus75
01-28-2005, 05:14 AM
uhm guys.....it's a game... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

peteuplink
01-28-2005, 07:15 AM
Yep exactly what ZeusCat says. I did a very short stint in the RAF and had to sit through classes on this stuff. It is illegal to shoot down pilots who've bailed out of damamged aircraft. But Paratroopers are legitamate targets.

I think the only country that weren't bound to this were the Japanese.

However, what wasn't made clear was if Paratroopers jumped out of a plane that's been damaged, are they still legitamate targets?

TacticalYak3
01-28-2005, 08:17 AM
Thread still going? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Ok, I think some of us (maybe most?) can separate this entertaining game from at least a probable reality. Unless it's a posted rule, it's optional fellow gamers. If someone believes it's more realistic based on history not to shoot someone in their chute that's ok (yes I can safely bail out now! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif).

With regards to real war, let's not be fooled by Hollywood - wars are mostly fought by scared boys who are forced to grow up very quickly. It must be a completely different world from ours - every day being asked to kill another human being; every moment being afraid it will be your turn; seeing those men around you who have become family being killed by the enemy (who were never an enemy to you until now). What emotions; what blurred senses of
reality.

We read very courageous stories during war, and we also read stories of how depraved the human spirit can be. War is not the place to conclude anything with regards to honour. If we were indeed honourable creatures we wouldn't make war, but peace which is a far harder pursuit to obtain. I have a deep respect, as I'm sure everyone here does, for all those men and women who fought for their countries.

Any belief that this simulation should be likened to the real thing is both foolish and an insult to real combat pilots in my opinion.

TactS!

Trent001
01-28-2005, 08:52 AM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by BlitzPig_Frat:

You know, some of you take this a little too far. 98% of you proclaiming honor have no earthly concept of what it is, nor have you put on a uniform and attempted to earn it. So don't preach to me from your pulpit, ever...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



If you don*t know me or any other members here personaly, I suggest you be very careful of your comments. Your last comment was totaly uncalled for.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



You quote me but didn't read it, typical chest beater. Tell me hero, is there a 98% in there or a 100%? Save the ominous doom and gloom for somebody who would be impressed.


Hey "BlitzPig_Frat", how about losing the chip on ya shoulder? I've spit roasted smarter pigs then you... so go spout your cr@p somewhere else.

kalaluth
01-28-2005, 08:57 AM
Excuse me Sirs, but as Frog representative, we were, with Polish pilots, one of the first bailed out pilots in WW2. That includes some (and more) german pilots.

According to Geneva convention, that's OK to shoot a bailed-out pilot if he is over his own land only. Over ennemy territory, he is considered as captured as soon as bailed out.

However shooting a chute was considered in WW2 as a dis-honnour, except over Estern Front, where every thing was acceptable!... Japan pilots too shot down in any case, considering that bailing out is a dis-honour.

Regards from a poor lone-some French guy (and free, thanks!) Philip.

Aztek_Eagle
01-28-2005, 08:58 AM
as a person that flys twins, bombers, and heavy fighters... i got alot of hate towards enemy pilots... when i see their copit off, i line begine them, and spray him when he bails... why...... well, when they see my bf110, or any bomber... and what happens, nible fighters get stick to my botom six like parasites.... one time one la5, burning, 3 friendlys begine him, and no matter what i did, i couldnt shake him off.. till he explode...... well... that makes me very very angry.... when on others ocation i was atacked by five enemys.... they ignored the others bf109s... and atack me... well.... it is war.. i know, and they will pay

eddiemac0
01-28-2005, 09:27 AM
Aztek, that's an interesting perspective.

I wonder how heavies' crews felt about this whole chute-shooting thing (both being shot themselves, and, if they ever got the chance, to shoot enemy chutes), cause they were so often caught in the situation you describe...

Chuck_Older
01-28-2005, 10:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by peteuplink:
Yep exactly what ZeusCat says. I did a _very_ short stint in the RAF and had to sit through classes on this stuff. It is illegal to shoot down pilots who've bailed out of damamged aircraft. But Paratroopers are legitamate targets.

I think the only country that weren't bound to this were the Japanese.

However, what wasn't made clear was if Paratroopers jumped out of a plane that's been damaged, are they _still_ legitamate targets? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

japan had not signed the Geneva convention by WWII

peteuplink
01-28-2005, 11:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:

Japan had not signed the Geneva convention by WWII <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aye, 'tis true. I was wondering if the Japanese had some other rule about shooting down parchutists. Y'know, like maybe they thought it was dishonourable to kill an unarmed pilot or something.

Then again, maybe I've been reading too much Samurai stuff :-P

Indianer.
01-28-2005, 11:53 AM
Aaaaah my fave topic.

war is hell, i love to see pilots plunging to their deaths with a shot up chute flailing behind them.

BlitzPig_Frat
01-28-2005, 12:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Trent001:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by BlitzPig_Frat:

You know, some of you take this a little too far. 98% of you proclaiming honor have no earthly concept of what it is, nor have you put on a uniform and attempted to earn it. So don't preach to me from your pulpit, ever...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



If you don*t know me or any other members here personaly, I suggest you be very careful of your comments. Your last comment was totaly uncalled for.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



You quote me but didn't read it, typical chest beater. Tell me hero, is there a 98% in there or a 100%? Save the ominous doom and gloom for somebody who would be impressed.


Hey "BlitzPig_Frat", how about losing the chip on ya shoulder? I've spit roasted smarter pigs then you... so go spout your cr@p somewhere else. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why Trent, I am truely shocked. Does this mean we are not friends anymore? Anyway, you have added nothing to the discussion, so you go spout your internet toughguy routine somewhere else. I hear the crowd at "Sesame Street Games, Fun With Elmo" crowd get scared of guys like you, maybe you'll have better luck there. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

BlitzPig_Frat
01-28-2005, 12:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by unclehubert:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BlitzPig_Frat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by markiz26:
Can you actually kill a bailed out pilot by shooting at him and not the parachute? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, you can destroy the chute itself and he falls to his death, or you can shoot the body itself and it goes limp in his harness. Or for real sport, shoot the guy before his chute deploys ala' clay pigeons or sporting clays. His lifeless body then does a nosedive into a delta and a chute never opens. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL....Interesting that you're so well versed on how to do this nasty deed!! Sounds like you been doing a little experimenting laddie....LOL <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hehe Uncle', you might say that. Really though, I've been flying this Sim so long that I've just seen it all happen a million times.

DarkCanuck420
01-29-2005, 11:55 PM
I was looking for a piece of art work to purchase and I stumbled upon this piece.
The name of this painting is "A Gentleman's War"

http://www.aviartnutkins.com/limited_editions/15_Gentlemans_War.php


For those pilots who want to fly a sim, have honor, respect for human life will fly the same way these men fought. it is a symbolic image of the spirit of war that we may never see again.

================================================

darkhorizon11
01-30-2005, 01:38 AM
It was pretty much standard procedure, although there were some exceptions. The enemy is the enemy, whether failing helplessly in a parachute in your sights or in the enemy fighter closing in on your six. Sad fact of war really.

There were some instances of honor though. I read an account of German pilot a while back. He explained he was on a routine patrol when he stumbled upon a Spitfire heading Northward a few miles away from the coast of France. He punched the throttle and closed on the Spit but he soon realized the aircraft was heavy damaged, trailing smoke, and oil, filled with holes. The German admired the bravery of the pilot for staying with the aircraft rather than be a POW. Instead he flew to the wing of the Spitfire and escorted him to the channel where he was sure the pilot would make it home.

Theres another German who recieved medals and recognition from the British military for sparing a Spitfire pilot who he surprised from above. The LW ace explained he got so close that he could see the surprise and fear on the RAF pilot's face realized he was his enemy's mercy. The same LW pilot also recieved recognition from the American's when he revealed he spared a crippled B-17 returning to France.

On the other hand I read a story of pilots being shot at by troops on the ground while floating in their parachutes.

But that was in World War Two. This is a game and although your not really killing anyone I would say its dishonorable.

Aimosika
01-30-2005, 02:32 AM
Well USA did it mostly. Maybe it was standard procedure to them.

cwojackson
01-30-2005, 03:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aimosika:
Well USA did it mostly. Maybe it was standard procedure to them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>? ? ? ? ?

Badsight.
01-30-2005, 04:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by darkhorizon11:
It was pretty much standard procedure, although there were some exceptions. . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
almost all pilot accounts ive seen in mags & books say the opposite

JohnnyBlademan
01-30-2005, 05:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VMF-112_Turret:
The Japanese didn't have any regulation of not allowed to kill people who can't defend them selves. It was a dishonor for a Japanese to return home alive & not kill a enemy. If a Jap was in a situation that he can decide to let the parachute live & return home with the shame that he failed to kill an enemy or kill the parachute & return home with honor that he killed an enemy.

Kill the Japs because they have no honor in the eyes of Americans & Europeans. It won't work trying to teach the Japs in World War 2 that the way of Samurai is wrong & is only shame when the entire Japanese military was built on the way of Samurai Warrior. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Huh??? You don't make a lot of sense, however, in his book "Samurai" by: Suburo Sakai, he talks about being appalled by a fellow pilot shooting at an Allied pilot in his chute and *****ing him out afterwards. The other pilot said "hey, he's the enemy and they would do it to us". It went on on both sides. If a sever says: " Jump and Die" then it's open season.

Aimosika....I love how you back up your statement with facts and witty reparte.

HvyPetals
01-30-2005, 07:46 AM
tacticalyak - well said

Zyzbot
01-30-2005, 08:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aimosika:
Well USA did it mostly. Maybe it was standard procedure to them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hardly. It was done by every side. Try to open your mind.

camped69
01-30-2005, 01:46 PM
Kill em All

nearmiss
01-30-2005, 02:03 PM
To bad we don't have good damage modeling of parachutists. It's quite a stunt to make a pass on parachutists...taking them out with your props.

Shooting is them too easy. Grinding them up is really getting even.

I've been "kilt" so many times in the chute it don't bother me. I've been "kilt" by ships, by AA, even got squashed once by a panzer as I landed and hit the deck.

KillerCharlie
01-31-2005, 09:03 PM
In some servers, it keeps track of the number of pilots and planes for each side. When a side runs out of either, they lose. Shooting down the pilot only makes sense. This isn't real life, folks.

BSS_Goat
02-01-2005, 09:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nearmiss: even got squashed once by a panzer as I landed and hit the deck. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now that is FRIKKIN FUNNY!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

Indianer.
02-01-2005, 12:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DarkCanuck420:
I was looking for a piece of art work to purchase and I stumbled upon this piece.
The name of this painting is "A Gentleman's War"

http://www.aviartnutkins.com/limited_editions/15_Gentlemans_War.php


For those pilots who want to fly a sim, have honor, respect for human life will fly the same way these men fought. it is a symbolic image of the spirit of war that we may never see again.

================================================



<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


If i were in that spit i would have drawn my revolver and shot him in the face.

MGBurrows
02-08-2005, 05:03 PM
I would never have so dishonored myself. My respect to PO Doe for the nobility of his actions that day. War is hard enough by its very nature, there is no need of us to make it harder.

HotelBushranger
02-09-2005, 05:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If i were in that spit i would have drawn my revolver and shot him in the face. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
Wow
Don't you guys have any respect for the enemy?

Even though war is hell, "we can make our department of it bearable to live in" to quote the Legendary Biggles http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

My point is, even though your job is to remorselessly slaughter the enemy, acts of humanity like A Gentlemans War show you from the rest.

I never plan on shootin chutes, war-time or virtual.

TROOPER117
02-09-2005, 06:30 AM
This is the single most disturbing thread I've read ever since visiting these forums! Yes, I know we are all immersed in a realistic game, but many of you claim that you would gladly shoot an unarmed man who can no longer defend himself.
I hope you never find yourself in a similar predicament! If you have ever been stranded for real with the possibility of falling into the hands of people with the same morales as some of the people in this forum you just might change your tune!!
I know its a game, I know its not real life, but take it from me, the gap between the two are not that far apart!
Sorry to bleat on, but this thread started to get to me.......Dave S

EnGaurde
02-09-2005, 06:40 AM
those that think this computer game can even approach the realism of actually doing the same, need to be examined???

if you shoot something, like many farm dwelling people amongst us have thru necessity, you will soon shy away from bravo statements like...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> If i were in that spit i would have drawn my revolver and shot him in the face.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I doubt very much youve shot anything. Let alone watched it die while bright pink lung blood leaks out its nose and gets coughed over the grass its collapsed on. Or, brushed off the stark white brain matter, chipped bone and black blood from your jeans and tried to blank out the way it dropped utterly lifelessly to the ground.. and did not move.

i see too many people that assume too many things about how much of a hero theyd be if the bullets and blood were for real.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

reisen52
02-09-2005, 06:59 AM
Let me understand this.

You guys have no problems with sneaking up, hoping he does not see you, and shooting a pilot in the back when he is in the plane, but get all touchy feely if he is in a chute. Interesting dichotomy don't you think.

All tactics, ground, air & sea are about achieving the same result, sneak up and kill the other guy before he has a chance to do you.

Famous quote, " If I get my people in a fair fight I have failed them.

Zeke

HotelBushranger
02-09-2005, 07:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>hose that think this computer game can even approach the realism of actually doing the same, need to be examined???

if you shoot something, like many farm dwelling people amongst us have thru necessity, you will soon shy away from bravo statements like...

quote: If i were in that spit i would have drawn my revolver and shot him in the face.



I doubt very much youve shot anything. Let alone watched it die while bright pink lung blood leaks out its nose and gets coughed over the grass its collapsed on. Or, brushed off the stark white brain matter, chipped bone and black blood from your jeans and tried to blank out the way it dropped utterly lifelessly to the ground.. and did not move.

i see too many people that assume too many things about how much of a hero theyd be if the bullets and blood were for real. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He makes a ****ed fine point. Listen to him.

And to other people who are assaulting each other like 'you chest-beater, drop the bravado act, etc.'

Now to use one example,
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If you don*t know me or any other members here personaly, I suggest you be very careful of your comments. Your last comment was totaly uncalled for. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know him personally, but I know a lot of pilots with time in the forces, and they sound a lot like him. HE has probably gone through the things we are discussing (would you do it in real life?). Just remember, there a lots of people on these forums with a lot of life experience.

If I'm wrong about Godfatha.....my mistake http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

WTE_Wombat
02-09-2005, 07:18 AM
There are some very romantic and ill-informed opinions here. Sorry guys but the Americans in particular went in for 'chute shooting in Europe in a big way. No judgements please but in their eyes it was "total" war and the objective was to kill Germans not destroy planes. An enemy who parachutes over his own lines is very likely to be back in action tomorrow shooting at your buddies.

They don't like to talk about it now but if you dig hard enough you will find first-hand references to the practice (I believe the book Thunderbolt! mentions it).

I haven't seen any (guncam) footage of it, but there is plenty of them strafing German planes that are trying to force-land (or have landed) in a field in order to prevent the pilot from surviving. You can even see it on SBS or the History Channel. Shooting the 'chute is a logical (and safer) extension of the same practice.

Galland denies that the Germans did it but there were many first hand accounts to the contrary. Personally I think they made an exception for the British out of a sense of honour or affinity with the British (who were NOT Untermenschen) perhaps because afterall the British royal family was very German.

Someone on SimHQ said they had a German account of a parachuting American pilot who was seen to hold his arms straight out from his sides whenever an American plane came near and the American planes would break off and leave him alone. German pilots then supposedly also took up the practice. It makes sense to me.

The Yanks also apparantely put a bounty on the head of all German Aces to be paid on their confirmed death (not just shot down - actual death).

On the British side, while the British Govt would never issue an offical order to shoot parachuting pilots, an "unoffocial" order went out that German air-sea rescue planes and boats were to be shot on sight regardless of whether they displayed the Red Cross or not (- they were just too efficient). It's a confirmed fact that it happened too.

In the Pacific I have no doubt that the Japanese would have shot parachutes (they usually didnt carry them) and I don't think it became an issue for the Yanks until they were over Japan itself (as Japanese pilots bailing out anywhere else had bugger all chance of surviving in the ocean or jungle anyway).

On the Eastern front - no quarter was asked or given



Some further reading (in the order I found it) to show that all sides did it:

http://www2.ca.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-09/tgmwc-09-86-09.shtml

includes this:

..."Enemy airmen whose machines have been shot down are to be shot without trial by court martial in the following cases:

(1) In the event of the shooting of our own German air crews while they are parachuting to earth.
(2) In the event of aerial attacks upon German planes which have made emergency landings and whose crews are in the immediate vicinity. "...

Obviously it was happening a lot for the order to be made.

OR

http://wings.buffalo.edu/info-poland/LOSC.html

..."Notes
1. Enraged by the Germans' machine-gunning of parachuting Polish and British pilots, the Poles were sometimes guilty of doing the same to Luftwaffe airmen as they descended under parachutes.. "...

OR

http://www.raf662.com/modules.php?name=Sections&op=viewarticle&artid=1

..."Bailing out was a very chancy proposition. If you didn't get killed by hitting the tail or something else, you were never sure that your chute would open or what you would run in to on the ground. I would rather stay strapped to my big "Jug" as long as possible. Germans also had a tendency to shoot guys on the way down.

Note.....The allies were not squeaky clean about shooting guys in parachutes. I nor any of my squadron did that I know of. But if you got lucky enough to shoot down Adolf Galland or Gunther Rall, the last thing you wanted was to shoot him down one day and have him come back the next day and have him shoot you down!"...

OR

http://www.worldwar2.ro/arr/marinciu.htm

..."One problem with the Americans was that they kept firing at you after you had been hit and smoke was coming out of the aircraft.

Claudiu Stumer: Did they fire in parachutes?

Ioan Marinciu: In the parachute or in the man hanging on it. This was to confirm their kill. Probably to be sure that the gun-camera photographed the victory they fired several shots afterwards. I heard that the Bulgarians got so upset, that they stated that if the Americans kept shooting at the parachutes, they would burn the prisoners alive. I don't know if they did it or if it had any results though."...


http://hnn.us/articles/5106.html

re American treatment of prisoners generally.

Zyzbot
02-09-2005, 09:32 AM
Shooting at parachutes was done by all sides in the war.

RUSSIANS Shooting at Finns
1. From an Interview of Finnish pilot Kyosti Karhila :
Q-Do you know of cases when a parachuted pilot would have been strafed?
A- Russians did do that.
Q- Were those single cases or was that systematic?
A- Well, I know of several cases. Especially those Finnish airmen who had been in a reconnaissance mission and had the bad fortune of having to bail out, they were in the risk of being shot in their parachute harness. I find that quite disgusting.
As to me, I can say that the La-5 pilot who nearly got me parachuted in the middle of the Gulf of Finland. He was rescued by a speedboat from Lavansaari, and I did not have any idea of going to strafe the boat. I must admit that my hands and feet were shaking at that moment.
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/karhi/karhinv2.htm
STRAFING Downed aircraft:
2. €œ €¦But there was a high price to be paid for the success; after the attack Sterner's and Jung's Harts collided in the air probably because of a shot steering wire. Jung's Hart lost an engine and fell to the ground tail first. In the other Hart Jung commanded several times his navigator, Lt. Zachau to parachute, but he couldn't escape from his position. Sterner was saved by his parachute. Also Jung's navigator, Sgt. Sunsten couldn't escape from his position. At 500 m (1.700 ft) altitude Jung parachuted out. The Hart continued its dive tail first, straightened at 50 m (170 ft) and fell to the woods in normal position. Sgt. Sunsten climbed out unharmed while the enemy fighters strafed the Hart.
The other aircraft spread and ensign F¤nstr¶m's Hart strayed away from them. While he was flying south three enemy fighters attacked and F¤nstr¶m dived down to the treetops. At 50 m (170 ft) he got engine trouble and had to land on a frozen swamp. The wing spars had been shot so that he had been in the risk of losing his upper wing. F¤nstr¶m and navigator Hanson escaped to the woods while the enemy fighters strafed their aircraft. After a while they returned to their aircraft, took their survival skis and headed back to the Finnish lines. A Finnish patrol found Sunsten a week later. Sterner and Jung were captured by the Soviets. Zachau had died in the aircraft€¦.€
http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:-ujtnhfa8doJ:www.sci.fi/~fta/f19-2.htm+strafed+parachute&hl=en

Germans shooting at Americans in parachutes:
1. "I thought I was the only person on board, so I jumped. Three fighters came after me. The first one missed and the second also missed. When the third one came by I was too low for him to shoot at me. When I hit the ground a burst of machine gun was fired at me. I hit the dirt fast. Then German soldiers came and drove me on a motorcycle to a building. On the way we passed a row of dead American airmen, about 12 of them covered with blood soaked parachutes. I knew they were shot dead on the way down. When we reached the building I saw our radio operator (McCauley) who was wounded and hurt bad. The Germans still made him stand up.€
http://www.southernoregonwarbirds.org/b17a.html


2. "As I descended in the parachute, the Germans were firing 20 and 30 mm cannon shells at me in the parachute. I didn't think they could hit such a small target, especially since I was swinging back and forth. The pilots on the mission said it looked like the rounds were going right through the canopy of the chute and they thought I was dead because they couldn't see me moving. The P-47s couldn't linger in the area to see me land because the flak being fired at them was too intense. The silence of my descent surprised me. After the noise of getting hit, all the smoke and the explosion, the silence was stunning. In a matter of minutes after hitting the ground, I was captured. €œ
http://pages.prodigy.com/fighterpilot/

3. With a chest type chute, which is what I was wearing, it was best if you were on your back when the chute opened, so the shrouds would not cut your face when they were pulled from the pack. I know I tumbled a long way trying to find that 'on my back position' until I finally got it. When the chute opened, there was a tremendous quiet. I had heard stories about the Germans shooting men in their parachutes, heard stories about people lynching them when they got on the ground and naturally I was now concerned for my welfare.

I looked off to my right and I saw a German fighter plane heading right for me and I felt this was it. But instead he flew up along side me, tipped up on one wing, and turned so that his prop wash collapsed my chute, and I dropped...fast, about 50 feet - until my chute reopened. In the meantime he circled around and made a second pass and again collapsed my chute and again I fell. A third time he headed towards me but this time he turned his cockpit towards me, gave me a snappy military salute, and flew on. Of course what he was doing in the meantime was drawing the attention of the people on the ground to where I was coming down, and for them to wait for me. And wait for me they did!"

http://www.384thbg.iwarp.com/rs_lavoie.htm

4. €œTheir mission for the day was Magdeburg, a major oil supply center for the Germans. The mission was successful, despite heavy enemy activity. Only five-flying minutes away from friendly territory, there was a malfunction with a gun on a neighboring plane and Spades€ aircraft was struck. The pilot told the crew to bail out.

Spades was the only crewmember from the front of the plane to make it out. The pilot was right behind him, but never jumped. The reason why he did not jump is still unknown. As Spades was descending, a German artillery unit made his descent faster by shooting a hole through his parachute.

Spades eventually landed near the same German artillery unit that shot his parachute. At first, he was under the watch of a very pessimistic German soldier. Through conversation, Spades found the boy was 14-years old. He expected the Germans to be defeated soon.€

5. After assisting Len to bail out, our pilot "Bill" Terry yelled, "Hey, Lou wait for me!" I waited until he left the control column then bailed out through the bomb bay. Distrusting the Germans I free fell and saw one parachute open above me which had to be Terry€s. While free-falling I realized that with the "H" (Jewish) on my dog tags I risked being shot as a spy, if I ripped them off and threw them away€¦ and risked being shot as a Jew if I left them on and fell into the hands of the Gestapo or S.S.! I left them on. While free falling I thought of the gross of condoms scattered in every pocket of every uniform€¦ "My parents will think they raised a sex fiend!"
When I finally opened my parachute I found I was being shot at from the ground. Slipping and spilling air I became an instant expert in maneuvering the chute despite admonitions to keep our "cotton-picking€ hands" off the shroud lines. I got away from a small camp where they were shooting at me toward another small camp where they were not

http://www.axpow.org/loevskylouis.htm
6. Lt Bernard T. McNamara (N-POW) Landed on and passed through the roof of the "Gaspard" repair shops in St. Saulve, a suburb of Valaneciennes. Was reported to have been machine-gunned during his parachute decent with wounds to his head, a hand and leg. Was cared for by local inhabitants and Dr. Delrue. Was found by the Germans two hours later and was sent to a local hospital for treatment. On the next day he was driven to a Luftwaffe Hospital in Cambrai.
http://www.303rdbga.com/358hendry.html

7. 17 April 1943:

€œ While escorting B-17s Captain James Harman, the 94th CO downed a Ju.88 but was in turn hit and forced to parachute. His parachute had been strafed and Cpt Harmon subsequently killed along with Lt Anderson with the 27th. Lts. Matthews and Lowe both claimed a Ju. 88 and Harold Lentz claimed a probable on both an Me. 109 and an Me. 210.€

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:fnYh2nOvuU4J:www.langley.af.mil/wm_source/1_fw_source/staff_agency/HO/1943.doc+strafed+parachute&hl=en

8. 12 Jan 1943:
€œOn a fighter sweep in the Gulf of Gabes, Joseph Smith of the 71st bailed out after the Germans shot down his aircraft. He reportedly died when machine guns fired at his parachute. €œ


GERMANS SHOOTING POLISH PILOTS IN PARACHUTES:

€œIn the same battle, pilots of 123. Fighter Eskadrille, flying obsolete PZL P.7a fighters, were surprised by Bf 110's of I/LG1 (commander Maj. Grabmann was wounded in a morning fight, so the unit was led this time by Hauptmann Schleif). Cpt. Mieczyslaw Olszewski, 123's commander, was quickly shot down and killed, his P.7 crashing near Legionow. Three other pilots shot down, bailed out and parachuted: Sec.Lt. Stanislaw Czternastek, Sec.Lt. Feliks Szyszka and cadet Antoni Danek. Only Czternastek safely reached the ground: Szyszka and Danek were attacked in the air. Strafed by a German fighter, Danek got down without injury. Szyszka wasn't so lucky, suffering 16 wounds. He was transported by civilians to a hospital. During that combat on 1 September 1939, I.(Z)/LG 1 escorted the He 111s of KG 27 and LG 1 against the airport of Warsaw. The Bf 110s claimed 5 PZL-fighters shot down - 3 by Hauptmann Fritz Schleif, one each by Unteroffizier Sturm and Unteroffizier Lauffs.

2 September 1939, about 16:00, Lodz area. Eight PZL fighters of III/6 Squadron clashed with 23 Bf 110's of I./ZG76. In the battle, Sec.Lt. Jan Dzwonek was shot down. Hanging in his parachute, he was attacked twice by a Bf 110. Apparently, the Luftwaffe pilot was so busy attacking the defenseless Dzwonek, that Corporal Jan Malinowski, flying an obsolete P.7 fighter, downed the German plane without any problem. See details in the story: Jan Dzwonek - within an ace of death.

3 September 1939, about 10:00 six PZL P-11c of 112. Eskadra Mysliwska (Fighter Eskadrille), leaded by commander of III/1 Dywizjon (Squadron) Cpt. Zdzislaw Krasnodebski took off against German Bf 110 fighters. In hard combat over Wyszkow city, Krasnodebski was forced to bail out. The German pilot who shot him down, aimed to finish his victim, shooting at Krasnodebski while he slowly glided down in his parachute. But Lt. Arsen Cebrzynski saw this deadly pass and the Luftwaffe pilot soon became a victim. Leutnant Barents, a veteran of "Legion Condor", bailed out safely, and became a POW.€

http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/pol39/pol39.htm


Polish pilots shooting Germans in parachutes
€œThere were two Poles in 151 Squadron, Frank Czaijkowski and a Sergeant Gmur who spoke little English and was shot down and killed. There was also a Czech pilot. Their flying skills were exemplary.
They hated [the Germans]. Absolutely hated them. In fact, I understand once or twice when Germans were shot down in parachutes they were shot at, but then the Germans would shoot any of us, which was why we were all told, "If you do have a chance, don't bail out, crash land your aeroplane.€
http://www.war-experience.org/collections/air/alliedbrit/ellacombe/index.html



GERMAN SHOOTING BRITISH PILOT IN PARACHUTE:
1. €œS/Ldr Starr: He joined 253 Squadron a few days before he was shot down and killed while descending by parachute on 31 August 1940€

2. €œAt about 18.30 hours, RAF Sergeant A. W. Wooley was piloting Hawker Hurricane No P3681 of 601 Squadron. Whilst engaging a Heinkel 111 off the Isle of Wight, his gravity fuel tank was hit and set alight by return fire. According to eyewitnesses, Sergeant Wooley baled out high above Freshwater and as he drifted towards Thorness he was machine-gunned by an enemy fighter. Luckily he survived but his parachute harness was almost cut through by one of the bullets. His troubles were not quite over that day for he landed in cow-pats.€


3. One British plane brought down. Pilot baled out and was machine gunned by Germans:
http://brew.clients.ch/GrndDiaries41.htm
Strafing downed pilot:
4. 30 November 1941, Sunday
€œOur boys went out looking for a fight and ran into a mixture of Italian and German aircraft. In the ensuing battle, we got eight enemy aircraft confirmed, with a probable 13. We lost three aircraft. One pilot, "Woof" Arthur still missing. Scotty shot down two, the guns must be working well!
Tiny Cameron crash landed in the desert and a German plane saw him and strafed him as he got out of his kite. He got out of it all with a few shrapnel cuts. "Winca" Pete Jeffries saw what was happening and drove off the enemy aircraft, landed in the desert next to Tiny, who ditched his parachute and climbed in with Pete and sat on his knee. Tiny is about 6'4", and Pete is about 6'0", so they can't close the cockpit hood.€
http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:Wi6XCJ-jOzsJ:www.3squadron.org.au/felix.htm+strafed+parachute&hl=en
5. €œGeorge Andrew Forsyth BUCHANAN, from Rhodesia. Forced to baled out over Malta on 17th May 1942, he was killed when an enemy fighter opened fire on his parachute.€
http://website.lineone.net/~remosliema/airmen191570.htm


AMERICAN SHOOTING GERMAN IN PARACHUTE:
On 8 March 1944, Ehrenberger engaged USAAF bombers and fighters near Wittenberg. In the resulting aerial combat his Bf 109 G-6 (W.Nr. 440 111) received hits. He baled out but was then shot and killed while hanging in his parachute. Ehrenberger was posthumously awarded the Ritterkreuz on 5 April.

Eugen-Ludwig Zweigart Oberleutnant
€œOn 8 June 1944, Zweigart was shot down in Fw 190 A-8 (W.Nr. 170 736) €œBlack 3€ in aerial combat near Le Cambaux. He baled out but was then shot and killed while hanging in his parachute.€
http://www.luftwaffe.cz/zweigart.html

BRITISH SHOOTING ITALIAN PILOT IN PARACHUTE:
€œOne of the fighters shot down was indeed a CR.42 of the 412a Squadriglia, the pilot being badly wounded; he is believed to have been Tenente Luigi De Pol, who later died in hospital. The second aircraft lost was a CR.32 (the last available in Eritrea) from which the pilot, Tenente Bossi, baled out. However, it was reported that he was machine gunned in his parachute by a Hurricane, and on landing was rushed to hospital where an arm and a leg was amputated, but he died shortly afterwards.€

JAPANESE ATTACKING AMERICANS IN PARACHUTES:

1. €œ The fate of the "Temptation" was as bad as "Mama's." Lieutenant William Rutledge's crew had fought off nine Zeros over Haiphong before her No.3 engine was hit. Rutledge successfully feathered the engine so the plane was able to fly northwest with the remaining two Liberators, "Doodlebug" and "Flub Dub." The crippled Liberator was unable to keep up so Rutledge turned his ship north and struck out on his own. She was jumped again by "Zekes," whose bullets shut down No.4 engine and jammed her stabilizer, causing the plane to start a slow spiral down to her left. The crewmembers were ordered to jump by the pilot and were immediately machine gunned as they floated helplessly to the ground. Lieutenant Rutledge was killed by a shot to the head, S/Sergeant Wilber Willis was riddled with bullets. Bombardier Lieutenant Richard Warren had been wounded in the leg during the attack. Navigator Robert Powers, a new replacement on the crew, had helped Warren into his chute and assisted him out the open bomb bay. Machine gunner S/Sergeant Robert L. Corbin had also been wounded and was nearly unconscious. Copilot Don Smith struggled to get him into a chute and pushed him out of the plane. Corbin revived long enough to open his chute. But neither Lieutenant Warren nor Sergeant Corbin was ever found.€


2. On May 5, 1945, an American B-29 bomber was flying with a dozen other aircraft after bombing Tachiaral Air Base in southwestern Japan and beginning the return flight to the island fortress of Guam.
Kinzou Kasuya, a 19-year-old Japanese pilot flying one of the Japanese fighters in pursuit of the Americans, rammed his aircraft into the fuselage of the B-29, destroying both planes.
No one knows for certain how many Americans were in the B-29; its crew had been hastily assembled on Guam. But villagers in Japan who witnessed the collision in the air saw about a dozen parachutes blossom.
One of the Americans died when the cords of his, parachute were severed by another Japanese plane. A second was alive when he reached the ground. He shot all but his last bullet at the villagers coming toward him, then used the last on himself.
http://www.centurychina.com/wiihist/germwar/uspow.htm



3. €œWhatever the motivation, it was common for Japanese pilots to shoot helpless victims. During the large air battle of June 7th, 1943, some of which is related above, Corsair pilot Lieutenant Samuel Logan experienced the practice but lived to describe it:

I saw two Zeros chasing a New Zealand P-40. I followed them down trying to close in on the tail of the Zero. When I was about 500 yards away, my plane suddenly began to vibrate and shake. I pulled up the nose but it continued to stall and shake worse than ever. I hadn€t seen any tracers but I turned and saw that my rudder was mostly shot away and that I had very little elevator control. The nose kept dropping. Suddenly I saw a Zero go past me from behind. I hadn€t known one was there. My plane was getting out of control so I opened the greenhouse, got out, and crawled back along the fuselage, clear to the tail. I didn€t have a chin strap on my helmet, so it blew off with my goggles, and for a while I couldn€t see a thing. I jumped but made the mistake of pulling my ripcord too soon. It worked OK and I was at about 20,000 feet. I was trying to pull up into the seat of the chutes when I heard kind of a €˜put-put€ behind me, the noise of machine gun fire. I swung around in my chute and saw a Zero making a run on me from behind firing with two machine guns. He missed but went so close under me that I had to jerk up my feet to avoid being hit by the prop. When he passed by, he did a wingover and made a second run on me. I was trying to collapse the chute to speed up my descent, but couldn€t do it. I was pretty high and weak from lack of oxygen. He missed again and then wheeled around and came back for a third run with both guns firing. I was busy trying to spill the air out of the chute, and I now had it partially collapsed. This time though, I didn€t think to pull up my feet. The prop hit me. I thought at first my feet were gone, but then saw that only the heel had been taken off my left foot. He made another run before the New Zealand P-40 I saw before came along and chased him off. It seemed to take ages to hit the water, and I had to fight to keep from passing out. Several Corsairs and P-40s were around so I figured I€d get picked up soon. I put a tourniquet on my right leg. The bit toe and the one next to it were on, but all the outside and rest were cut off just above the ankle-kind of a sideways cut. My left heel was cut too. I gave myself two morphine surettes and I took four sulfa tablets. The morphine started to do its work, things began to go dim, and I lay back and relaxed.

Lieutenant Logan was quickly picked up. His foot was later amputated€¦€


4. 29 April,1945:

Roger's Diary:
Miyakonojo Airfield, Kyushu. Altitude 15,000 ft. Daylight formation raid, no fighter escort. Flak moderate. Fighters 40 to 50. Lt. Wollschlager got a probable fighter. It came in at 11 o'clock and I could see the tracers coming at us. It was smoking badly as it passed us. T 4's #3 engine caught fire, but it made it 20 miles from the Jap coast before it's crew bailed out when the whole right wing caught fire. The plane exploded shortly before hitting the water. The men were scattered out quite a bit and we circled over them for three hours and threw things down to them. I contacted a submarine and kept sending in their position and their condition. As our fuel was running low we had to leave them and land at Iwo Jima for gas. On take off the #4 engine caught fire and we feathered it and landed again. We flew A 53 back to Saipan and left Bernie and Bob on Iwo to guard T 8 . Two Jap boats were damaged and four sunk, also a Jap Betty was shot up, trying to come out and strafe the survivors. Lt. Fisher and five of his men were rescued. We also lost T 12 over the target. http://home.att.net/~sallyann5/b29/schifferli3.html


JAPANESE SHOOTING CHINESE PILOT IN PARACHUTE:

1. Then Chang was attacked by three Type 97s from above. He took evasive action, flipped over, made a half roll and tried to climb, and then was hit by enemy gunfire. The aircraft went into a corkscrew, and Chang became dizzy and lost his vision. The throttle control became totally unresponsive. He could feel hot lubricant slopping on his legs and feet. He knew the aircraft could catch fire any moment and decided to bail out. He released his lap belt and shouldered his way out of the cockpit door. He spun out in the air and the objects he carried in his leg pockets, including map, protractor, ruler, pen, goggle and revolver, all flew out into the air. Chang bent his legs and put his arms below his knees to stop the spinning. He estimated that he had fallen from 6000 meters to 3000 meters and pulled the ripcord. The parachute opened with a big thump. As he descended slowly, he was dreading that he would land to the north of the Yellow River occupied by the Japanese. Images from his past went through his mind. Suddenly, he regained some vision. From pitch black, he began seeing things in deep yellow, and then light yellow, and he saw the deep blue sky turn into light blue.
His joy suddenly turned into fright as he saw three Japanese aircraft flying towards him, with guns blazing. In the first attack, tracers burned several holes on his parachute and severed five cords. The parachute went lop-sided, accelerated its downward decent, and swung left and right. The second aircraft attacked and severed three more cords. The swaying and acceleration increased. The Japanese planes left him only when he was near the ground. Chang fell on a vegetable field in Hsia Yi County east of Kwei Teh. He injured his lower back on landing, and the injury bothered him all his life.



2. €œOn February 8, 1938 a pilot of the 25th squadron, Yang Jien was shot down in air combat over Hankow. He baled out of Hawk No. 2306 (it was his second escape by parachute during the war), but was strafed by the Japanese. It is necessary to note that the Japanese pilots, out of simple Samurai cruelty chased after pilots who had force-landed or baled out by parachute trying to finish them off in the air or on the ground. Thus perished too many Chinese pilots and a number of our volunteers. In August 1938 in one battle over Hankow the Japanese at once strafed two pilots who had baled out of Soviet fighters. A gunner-radio operator saved on August 12 from a shot down SB (the pilot and navigator perished) remembers: €œHow I opened the parachute I don€t know...Observing me, a Japanese fighter began to dive at the parachute and opened fire, with the result that there were several tears in the canopy of the parachute, but I remained unharmed. Then he drew very near to the canopy; to all appearances he wanted to hook me on his landing gear and drag me back to his own territory as a trophy. I actively defended myself and began to slip the parachute, rapidly losing height. Following three or four unsuccessful attacks, the Japanese left me in peace...€ Killed that same day [6] were Senior Lieutenants F. D. Gulyi, N. M. Terekhov, Kh. Kh. Churyakov, and Lieutenant A. G. Maglyak.€

http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/George_Mellinger/china_skys_part_ii.htm

Air Ops in Burma:

€œFrom January 1st the cost in losses was 38 fighters shot down by the enemy in air combat. Of these 16 were P.40€s and 22 Buffaloes and Hurricanes, but the majority of pilots were fortunately saved. I regret to report that there were 2 substantiated incidents when Japanese fighter pilots attacked and killed our fighter pilots while descending by parachute.€

http://www.fepow-community.org.uk/Research/London_Gazette/Air_Ops_Burma_Jan_to_May_1942/html/body_part_ix.htm

SPANISH CIVIL WAR

€œ€¦.Henrici was probably shot down by Sergiey Chernych, (I-16). It seems that Eberhardt collided with Tarchov since it€s reported that he single-handed fought against a number of He51s before being forced to bail out after a collision. While hanging in his parachute, Republican soldiers mistook him for Nationalist pilot and opened fire, hitting him six times. Tarchov landed in Madrid but was attacked by the public because they thought he was a German. He died of his injuries at G³mes Ulla hospital on 23 November. This led General Miaja to the issue following order the next day:
€œAny aviator who jumps from his aircraft using a parachute is out of the battle and, therefore, I order all forces defending Madrid not to shoot at parachutists under any circumstances. They may be our own men, but, if they prove to be enemies they can provide us with valuable information, which will be of great use for our operations.€
http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/soviet_rychagov.htm

Indianer.
02-09-2005, 10:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EnGaurde:
those that think this computer game can even approach the realism of actually doing the same, need to be examined???

if you shoot something, like many farm dwelling people amongst us have thru necessity, you will soon shy away from bravo statements like...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> If i were in that spit i would have drawn my revolver and shot him in the face.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I doubt very much youve shot anything. Let alone watched it die while bright pink lung blood leaks out its nose and gets coughed over the grass its collapsed on. Or, brushed off the stark white brain matter, chipped bone and black blood from your jeans and tried to blank out the way it dropped utterly lifelessly to the ground.. and did not move.

i see too many people that assume too many things about how much of a hero theyd be if the bullets and blood were for real.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

erm no.....i'd be drinking warm beer down the pub.

There is one thing that needs to be clarified here....

IT'S A COMPUTER GAME!

BTW..all that blood and brain matter u mentioned would be crafted into some sort of monument http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

...to myself.

Wallstein
02-09-2005, 05:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BlitzPig_Frat:
---"
You know, some of you take this a little too far. 98% of you proclaiming honor have no earthly concept of what it is, nor have you put on a uniform and attempted to earn it. So don't preach to me from your pulpit, ever..." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You must be American. That´s all I can say. There are other men wearing uniforms or those who ones wore one. Those who have "earned" (using your word)their uniforms tend to speak differently.

Fatoomch
02-09-2005, 11:47 PM
Seeing how a lot of people quote the historical precedent of shooting at pilots in chutes then here's an idea. Maybe in some patch the player could be given the ability to wait before pulling the ripcord after bailing out. Just as it was in RL, a lot of pilots would wait till the last second before pulling the ripcord. Imagine being able watch the ground rushing up before hitting the ripcord key. A little bit of fun after being blasted from the sky. Probably not within the scope of the game engine but would be fun if it could be done.

x__CRASH__x
02-10-2005, 12:00 AM
It's a fricking game. If it's a scripted server, and/or a single death kick, then you betcha I kill em on the way out. No sense in having them come back up to take another shot at me. If it isn't a scripted server, then I don't waste the ammo. Heck, they probably already hit refly anyway.

Some people call it disrespectful and don't like it. They are wrapped a little too tight IMO. I shot up a spit in WarClouds a few nights ago. Some french guy bailed out. On his way out I helped him down by adding some leaded weight to his body. He posted in the chat: "F**K NOIR 72!" (This is how I knew he was French... Noir is black in Frog speak) Then he got booted by the death kick.

Red team was down one pilot... and they had les pilots than planes. Mission accomplished.

Indianer.
02-10-2005, 08:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by x__CRASH__x:
It's a fricking game. If it's a scripted server, and/or a single death kick, then you betcha I kill em on the way out. No sense in having them come back up to take another shot at me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

**** right.