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ViktorViktor
09-30-2005, 07:36 AM
Hey, I am reading Buchner's autobiography and in it there is a note that the commander of 9/JG7, Georg-Peter Eder, was credited with 25 kills while flying the ME-262. (Buchner had 12 kills while flying the ME-262.)

I wasn't aware that anyone flying jets got more than 20 jet kills during WWII. Does anyone know who the top 10 jet aces of WWII are ?

JG52Karaya-X
09-30-2005, 07:47 AM
According to "Die deutschen Jagdflieger-Asse 1939-45" it's as following:

1)Heinrich B√¬§r OTL 16
2)Franz Schall Hptm. 14
3)Hermann Buchner Lt. 12
4)Georg Peter Eder Maj. 12
5)Erich Rudorffer Maj. 12
6)Karl Schn√¬∂rrer Lt. 11
7)B√ľttner (?) Ofw. 8
8)Helmut Lennartz Fw. 8
9)Rudolf Rademacher Olt. 8
10)Walter Schuck Olt. 8

jimDG
09-30-2005, 07:52 AM
Originally posted by ViktorViktor:
Hey, I am reading Buchner's autobiography and in it there is a note that the commander of 9/JG7, Georg-Peter Eder, was credited with 25 kills while flying the ME-262. (Buchner had 12 kills while flying the ME-262.)

I wasn't aware that anyone flying jets got more than 20 jet kills during WWII. Does anyone know who the top 10 jet aces of WWII are ?

A possible mix up with "points"? Kills is kills, but the germans also gave "points" depending on the number of engines - its the points that determined when you get the knights cross/ leaves/diamonds etc.. (not the kills).

so the guy could just have 6 b-17s and a stang as kills?

Zyzbot
09-30-2005, 08:10 AM
Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:
According to "Die deutschen Jagdflieger-Asse 1939-45" it's as following:

1)Heinrich B√¬§r OTL 16
2)Franz Schall Hptm. 14
3)Hermann Buchner Lt. 12
4)Georg Peter Eder Maj. 12
5)Erich Rudorffer Maj. 12
6)Karl Schn√¬∂rrer Lt. 11
7)B√ľttner (?) Ofw. 8
8)Helmut Lennartz Fw. 8
9)Rudolf Rademacher Olt. 8
10)Walter Schuck Olt. 8

Yes. I've seen the very same list in another source.

One name that sometimes appears on jet ace lists is that of Kurt Welter.He claimed over 20 kills in a jet...many at night. However, some of his claims were highly controversial even among his fellow Luftwaffe pilots. Some suggested he made claims of aircraft which were actually downed by flak.

After the war his claims of jet kills against Mosquito night bombers were investigated and it was determined that only a couple of losses could be verified. On several occasions he claimed Mosquito kills when none were lost at all. His true total number of jet kills will probably never be known.

ViktorViktor
09-30-2005, 08:31 AM
I wonder if Buchner is the only one on the list to write his memoirs ? Rudorffer did it all - Eastern Front, Western Front, jets - has he ever written about his experiences ?

Does anyone know if Macky Steinhoff (6 jet kills)wrote an autobiography, or did he just write non-personally ?

ViktorViktor
09-30-2005, 08:33 AM
Forgot to say thanks to JG52Karaya-X for the jet ace list !

Zyzbot
09-30-2005, 08:42 AM
Originally posted by ViktorViktor:
I wonder if Buchner is the only one on the list to write his memoirs ? Rudorffer did it all - Eastern Front, Western Front, jets - has he ever written about his experiences ?

Does anyone know if Macky Steinhoff (6 jet kills)wrote an autobiography, or did he just write non-personally ?

Try "The Final Hours" by Steinhoff. I have read part of it. I really need to finish.

Daiichidoku
09-30-2005, 08:44 AM
Originally posted by ViktorViktor:
I wonder if Buchner is the only one on the list to write his memoirs ? Rudorffer did it all - Eastern Front, Western Front, jets - has he ever written about his experiences ?

Does anyone know if Macky Steinhoff (6 jet kills)wrote an autobiography, or did he just write non-personally ?

he may have written other books, i dont know, but i do know that he wrote "the last chance"...good book...but so well writing and interesting that its small size leaves you wanting more....reaveals a little about jet operations in 45, and also about the behind the scenes, if you, politics concerningjet operations, many top JV 44 officers, goering and hitler, and the luftwaffe at large

id tell you the publisher, etc...but its in storage

steinhoff - "the last chance"

ulil
09-30-2005, 09:26 AM
http://www.luftwaffe.cz/dusen.html

wayno7777
09-30-2005, 09:44 AM
Interesting list....
List
Rank
First Name
Last Name
Victories on Me262
Total
Unit

1
Oblt. Kurt Welter 29? (25?)
63
Kdo Stamp, Kdo Welter, 10./NJG 11
2
Hptm. Franz Schall 17
133
Kdo Nowotny, JG 7
3
Lt. Rudolf "Rudi" Rademacher 16+
97
JG 7
4
Obstlt. Heinz "Pritzel" B√¬§r 16
221
EJG 2, JV 44
5
Maj. Georg-Peter Eder 14 (24)
78
EKdo 262, Kdo Nowotny, JG 7
6
Maj. Erich Rudorffer 12
224
JG 7
7
Lt. Hermann Buchner 12
58
JG 7
8
Lt. Karl "Quax" Schn√¬∂rrer 11
46
Kdo Nowotny, JG 7
9
Oblt. Fritz Stehle 11
26
JG 7
10
Obst. Walter Dahl 9+
128
EJG 2
11
Ofw. Hubert G√¬∂bel 9
10
Ekdo 262, Kdo Nowotny, JG 7
12
Uffz. Peter K√¬∂ster 9
9+
EJG 2, JG 7, JV 44
13
Lt. Joachim Weber 9
9~
EKdo 262, Kdo Nowotny, JG 7
14
Maj. Theodor Weissenberger 8
208
JG 7
15
Maj. Heinrich Ehrler 8
208
JG 7
16
Oblt. Walter Schuck 8
206
JG 7
17
Ofw. Erich B√ľttner 8
24
Kdo Nowotny, JG 7
18
Ofw. Heinz-Helmut Baudach 8
21+
EKdo 262, Kdo Nowotny, JG 7
19
Ofw. Otto Pritzl 8
19
JG 7
20
Lt. G√ľnther Wegmann 8
14
Kdo Nowotny, JG 7
21
Fw. Helmut Lennartz 8
10
EKdo 262, Kdo Nowotny
22
Oblt. Hans-Dieter "Hadi" Weihs 8
9
JG 7
23
GenLt. Adolf "Dolfo" Galland 7
104
JV 44
24
Ofw. Heinz Arnold 7
49
JG 7
25
Uffz. Anton Sch√¬∂ppler 7
13~
JG 7
26
Lt. Alfred Ambs 7
7+
JG 7
27
Fhr. Ernst Pfeiffer 7
7~
JG 7
28
Lt. Alfred "Bubi" Schreiber 7
7~
EKdo 262, Kdo Nowotny
29
Fw. Karl-Heinz Becker 7
7
10./NJG 11
30
Fhr. Friedrich Ehrig 7
7
JG 7
31
Uffz. ? Richter 7~
7~
KG(J) 54
32
Obst. Johannes "M√¬§cky" Steinhoff 6
176
JG 7, JV 44
33
Lt. Fritz R.G. M√ľller 6
22
JG 7
34
Ofhr. Walter Windisch 6
10
JG 7
35
Maj. Wolfgang Sp√¬§te 5
99
JG 7
36
Oblt. Hans Gr√ľnberg 5
82
JG 7, JV 44
37
Lt. Klaus Neumann 5
37
JG 7, JV 44
38
Oblt. Gustav Sturm 5
21
JG 7
39
Gefr. Joseph "Sepp" Heim 5
5~
JG 7
40
Ofw. Rudolf Hener 5~
14
JG

Add; The Fighter Pilot's list shows Welter as being credited with 60 and no jet victories....
http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/aces/aces.htm#wwii

ViktorViktor
09-30-2005, 09:46 AM
Thanks for the reading tips, I'm going to give them a look-over !

ViktorViktor
09-30-2005, 09:55 AM
Zyzbot, check out ulil's link - it's got good info on Welter. The bad news is that Welter's claims look to good to be true.

Shooting down planes at night in a ME-262, now that sounds tough. I cringe in my seat thinking about the danger for collisions. And verifying a kill at night - that could be well nigh impossible sometimes, I would think.

Zyzbot
09-30-2005, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by ViktorViktor:
Zyzbot, check out ulil's link - it's got good info on Welter. The bad news is that Welter's claims look to good to be true.

Shooting down planes at night in a ME-262, now that sounds tough. I cringe in my seat thinking about the danger for collisions. And verifying a kill at night - that could be well nigh impossible sometimes, I would think.

Check out the book "The Other Battle". It contains a lot of information about night fighting and has information about Welter and the doubts about his claims at night in the Me-262. It also has some information that confirms a few of his claims.

Brotrob
09-30-2005, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by ViktorViktor:

Shooting down planes at night in a ME-262, now that sounds tough. I cringe in my seat thinking about the danger for collisions. And verifying a kill at night - that could be well nigh impossible sometimes, I would think.



Viktor,

your are right, indeed. It was so dangerous that in fact a well known german fighter ace colided with a Mosquito flying a one-seater night-fighter 262 (anoter prototype similar to V-056). This guy (Hajo Herrman) looked at his phosphorising radar, recognised that he was aproaching an enemyplane, looked in the sky to fix it, looked back at the radar screen and before he could look up again he collided with the Mossi. He survived, but it became appearant that one could not do the job of two guys in such a fast fighter. Thats one of the reasons they only used 2-seaters from then on.

Regards,

Brotrob

luftluuver
09-30-2005, 02:32 PM
What was the WNr of the this first single seat Me262 NF?

Stigler_9_JG52
09-30-2005, 03:24 PM
Steinhoff did write memoirs, albeit about one particular part of his wartime service. It's "Messerschmitts Over Sicily"...and it's a pretty good read. Nothing about jets, though.

Waldo.Pepper
09-30-2005, 04:18 PM
V-056)

This plane is often depicted with the radar antenna. However, it was my understanding that recent information has demonstrated quite clearly that this plane was never used as a fighter. Any claims that it had shot down anything were demonstrated to be false. This recent reseach demonstrated that the antenna were mounted on this plane to test the aerodynamics of their installation and nothing more.

I second Zyzbot's recommendation of The Other Battle. It is just an excellent book on the subject.

Heliopause
10-01-2005, 07:50 AM
I read something about him shooting down a couple off Junkers Ju 88's instead of Mosquito's in march '45...

Brotrob
10-01-2005, 12:55 PM
Hey Waldo.Pepper,

if I remember correctly it was not the V-056, but another one-seater 262 with radar-equipment. The V-056 was used to test simple tubes against aerodonamic streamlinde radar-antennas and to test the airflow around the rudder/elevator. Therefore it had a black coating in this area with lots of small white filaments to show how the air flows. Currently I'm in england for the rest of the year and therefore cant look up in which book I read this story about the collision. I admit, you can never be sure if these "stories" are right, and often they are pure fiction. Like the one about an US fighter-pilot who believed he saw Hatmanns 109 with a big "200" on its rudder in combat...

Regards,

Brotrob

CUJO_1970
10-01-2005, 04:32 PM
One thing is for sure, the top jet ace of WWII must be German because the Allies were to technically challenged to have any.

Waldo.Pepper
10-01-2005, 04:47 PM
the Allies were to technically challenged

What poor analysis on your part.

luftluuver
10-01-2005, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by Brotrob:
Hey Waldo.Pepper,

if I remember correctly it was not the V-056, but another one-seater 262 with radar-equipment. The V-056 was used to test simple tubes against aerodonamic streamlinde radar-antennas and to test the airflow around the rudder/elevator. Therefore it had a black coating in this area with lots of small white filaments to show how the air flows. Currently I'm in england for the rest of the year and therefore cant look up in which book I read this story about the collision. I admit, you can never be sure if these "stories" are right, and often they are pure fiction. Like the one about an US fighter-pilot who believed he saw Hatmanns 109 with a big "200" on its rudder in combat...

Regards,

Brotrob

Brotrob, V056 was done up as you say. You can see many photos of it in Vol 3 of the Classic 262 series of books. No other radar equiped single seater is mentioned. The book also states that the radar set was probably not fitted.

If you can come up with a WNr or V number for this other single seater NF, it would be nice.

Is it possible you are confusing 'the 2cd V2' since there was already a 1st V2, WNr.000002 constructed 10/01/42. This a/c crashed 4/18/43 killing Ofw Wilhelm Ostertag on its 48th flight.

http://www.stormbirds.com/werknummer/index.htm

ViktorViktor
10-02-2005, 05:16 AM
Hey, I found a pic of an ME262 A with radar, but I don't know enough about radar, ME262s or W. numbering to conclude anything about it.It's from a 'Aircraft in Profile' offering by J. Richard Smith.

The captions says: 'The ME262A, W.Nr.130 056, experimentally fitted with Lichtenstein SN-2 radar.' Is this V056 or another plane ?

The essay goes on to say that Hajo Herrmann and Oblt. Behrens tested it and concluded that it was well-suited to night-fighter duties.

luftluuver
10-02-2005, 07:07 AM
Yes Viktor that is the plane. Smith is one of the co-authors of the Classic series on the 262.

hotspace
10-02-2005, 07:28 AM
Here's an interesting Link with everything and all http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://math.fce.vutbr.cz/safarik/ACES/index.html

Also if you click here:

http://www.flying-legends.net/php/downloads/download.php?id=1861

.......you can fly that mission where the 262 gets it's last kills of the war at night http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Hot Space

luftluuver
10-02-2005, 10:38 AM
Botrob, upon further searching, there was a second V5(WNr 130167) and V7(WNr170303).

Heliopause
10-03-2005, 05:06 AM
Some pictures...

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a138/heliopause/Me262-V056.jpg

Photo of V9 VI + Ab with antenna for elekto-acoustic bearing. W-nr ends with 079?
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a138/heliopause/Me262night.jpg
Bottom photo shows Me 262's at Schleswig-Jagel after Britisch troops have arrived.