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View Full Version : Fw-190D-9 vs. Ta-152H-1



TooCooL34
01-05-2006, 02:30 PM
I'm 100% sure the winner is Ta-152H-1.

Luftwaffe strictly selected pilots who have long long torso which enabled them to look over the bar and this made Ta-152H-1 five times better fighter than Dora. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/6628/compare6bt.gif
http://img326.imageshack.us/img326/7515/ta1520ph.jpg
http://img308.imageshack.us/img308/255/fw190d99ej.jpg
I'm sorry I know I'm beating dead horse but couldn't resist it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Seriously, this single difference brings huge gap in every aspect of combat maneuver.
Download 2 images, open them on 2 windows and try go back and forth.(EDIT: made gif file. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )
Hope Fw-190s in BOB to have view of Ta-152, not current Fws'.
Anyway no one would need to whine cause we'll have 6dof support then. First reason I wait for BOB. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Werg78
01-05-2006, 02:46 PM
does "the bar" qualify already as (one of) the single most requested changes / whines? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

but i wholeheartedly agree - we need a new bar http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

robban75
01-05-2006, 03:38 PM
If we ignore the bar issue, the Ta 152 has more advantages over the D-9.

1. it climbs better
2. it turns better
3. more effective armament
4. faster at alt
5. twice the range

You get all of the above plus, you get to keep the D-9's excellent level/dive acceleration. Superb elevator authority at high speeds, and it's only 10-15km/h slower at sealevel. It's a great fighter in-game, and it was a great fighter in RL. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Still, I'd love to see a Fw 190D-13 in this sim. But I realise that wont happen.

TooCooL34
01-05-2006, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by robban75:
If we ignore the bar issue, the Ta 152 has more advantages over the D-9.

1. it climbs better
2. it turns better
3. more effective armament
4. faster at alt
5. twice the range

The pilot who has long long torso can double(or triple) that advantage.
Bar was there. The problem is torso height.
So the man said it right. It's the man, not the machine.

Oh yeah, I got my stinking 1,000 posts count. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

robban75
01-05-2006, 04:01 PM
And I have just reached 3,000 posts. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif Might as well get it in a thread about the D-9 and Ta 152. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Kira1985
01-05-2006, 04:15 PM
Still, I'd love to see a Fw 190D-13 in this sim.

+1

OldMan____
01-05-2006, 04:38 PM
This pictures are good to show how irrelevant this bar issue is. IF anyone needs that extra 5 pixels to hit something, it must annalyse their tatics.

Roll issues are much more important than things like the semi-mithical bar.

Siwarrior
01-05-2006, 04:39 PM
Just out of question guys ( P-40 flyer) how much difference does the bar ACTUALLY make to your flying? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

LEXX_Luthor
01-05-2006, 05:16 PM
Ta-152 had good enough performance that the Ta pilots did not need to scrunch down low in the cockpit to hide from Ally pilots like the Dora pilots did so they would not be seen -- nobody shot at planes with empty cockpits. So, the confident Ta pilots usually had better view since they could sit high in the cockpit and be seen by Ally pilots and still win the Dogfight.

Brain32
01-05-2006, 05:45 PM
Just out of question guys ( P-40 flyer) how much difference does the bar ACTUALLY make to your flying? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif
It's not about flying, it's about shooting...

TooCooL34
01-05-2006, 06:03 PM
Right. It's about shooting.
But not just that.
Overall flight sense feels right finally in Ta-152 point of view modeling. You become real man, real pilot.

In old Fw-190 POV, you're just 10 year old son of that pilot. A boy who's taking a look around cockpit of his papa. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Ob.Emann
01-05-2006, 07:21 PM
Originally posted by robban75:
Still, I'd love to see a Fw 190D-13 in this sim.

Amen.

p1ngu666
01-05-2006, 07:29 PM
i much prefer the dora over the ta152 actully, cant hit with the ta152 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

wayno7777
01-05-2006, 08:56 PM
What bar?



http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

LuftWulf190
01-06-2006, 12:11 AM
I say Dora wins as far as looks. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

The Ta-152 just looks way to long, almost alien in looks. I dunno the Dora says "Don't mess with me!". The Ta-152 says, "Take me to your Leader".

And for the Record, I would want to see a D-11 (I can hear the moans and groans now), a D-12 ground attack fighter, and the fantastic D-13. Also the D-9 SHOULD have external stores! You know, bombs, rockets, and DROP TANKS!

WOLFMondo
01-06-2006, 01:10 AM
Dora for me. Ta152 is a nice turner but I find the Dora is much better in a high speed climb, its faster at low and medium altitude. I find those big TA wings an easy target as well.


Originally posted by OldMan____:
This pictures are good to show how irrelevant this bar issue is. IF anyone needs that extra 5 pixels to hit something, it must annalyse their tatics.

Roll issues are much more important than things like the semi-mithical bar.

You've clearly not flow the 190's very much in combat. That bar is a problem, almost all the shots you'll ever make in a high speed bounce or turn, no matter how small that turn is, will be blind a deflection shots because of the bar and the placement of the revi sight.

Being able to see the plane your shooting at is actually very advantageous to your accuracy, and seeing the plane your shooting at in a 190 isn't an option allot of the time. :P

luftluuver
01-06-2006, 06:57 AM
dp

luftluuver
01-06-2006, 06:58 AM
Originally posted by OldMan____:
This pictures are good to show how irrelevant this bar issue is. IF anyone needs that extra 5 pixels to hit something, it must annalyse their tatics.

The 'bar' is very far from being irrelevent. It resricts a good portion of the sky that a real world 190 pilot would see. That 5 pixels is 30-40mm in real life.

JuHa-
01-06-2006, 07:46 AM
The pilot who has long long torso can double(or triple) that advantage.
Bar was there. The problem is torso height.
So the man said it right. It's the man, not the machine.

Fw190-series had adjustable seat height, 10cm range if I remember correctly. So the limiting
factor was more likely the distance from eyes to the top of flight helmet. Canopy roof being the
restricting hard limit.

6DOF won't do wonders, as the volume where your head can be inside the cockpit will surely be
limited to "realistic" or realistic propotions.

p1ngu666
01-06-2006, 07:59 AM
have fun standing and squating in your cockpits while wearin ur 6dof gear http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

stathem
01-06-2006, 08:48 AM
In the future,

If you have 6dof and you duck when someone is firing at you, is it possible you can avoid the PK?

Kocur_
01-06-2006, 09:13 AM
With the bar (to remind: a thing that RL pilot did not see, due to refraction, as it was on the other side of that thick, sloped armour glass) any deflection angle means I do not see my target when firing. This game definately is not a Fw-190 sim, as it puts player in virtual cocpit, which if FAR from resembling reality. Not to mention lack of RL roll rate advantage...

p1ngu666
01-06-2006, 10:45 AM
other fighters would benifit from siming angled glass http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

apart from poor japanease aircraft http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Kocur_
01-06-2006, 10:55 AM
Sure would! All it would take to implement refraction is 'sketching' metal parts outside of glass thinner, according to glass thickness and angle. Still the Fw-190's 'bar' is the heaviest case, both because of how thick and angled the windscreen was and how greately forward vision in CRIPPLED. In fact its quite grotesque!

JuHa-
01-06-2006, 11:22 AM
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c341/juha_qwert/16012005077.jpg

Found it. What bar?

Kocur_
01-06-2006, 12:26 PM
You is wrong http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

JuHa-
01-06-2006, 12:40 PM
Ruki ver, tavarich.

Flakwalker
01-06-2006, 02:03 PM
Ta-152H-1 is better, nice for turns and better armament.

However the FW-190 that will be between them will be the Ta-152C. It was powered by a DB-603LA, and the armament was 4x 20mm and either 1x 30mm MK-108 or 1x 30mm MK-103. That will win for me.

OldMan____
01-06-2006, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
Dora for me. Ta152 is a nice turner but I find the Dora is much better in a high speed climb, its faster at low and medium altitude. I find those big TA wings an easy target as well.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OldMan____:
This pictures are good to show how irrelevant this bar issue is. IF anyone needs that extra 5 pixels to hit something, it must annalyse their tatics.

Roll issues are much more important than things like the semi-mithical bar.

You've clearly not flow the 190's very much in combat. That bar is a problem, almost all the shots you'll ever make in a high speed bounce or turn, no matter how small that turn is, will be blind a deflection shots because of the bar and the placement of the revi sight.

Being able to see the plane your shooting at is actually very advantageous to your accuracy, and seeing the plane your shooting at in a 190 isn't an option allot of the time. :P </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


LOL modno, pay attention on what you write. I fly FW190 99.999% of time And tha bar has ZERO effect.

Just look at T1 152 bar.. it is lower.. but the true ammoutn of space uncovered by it is irrelevant!!! If you need that space to shoot you won´t hit anyway.

luftluuver
01-06-2006, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by OldMan____:
LOL modno, pay attention on what you write. I fly FW190 99.999% of time And tha bar has ZERO effect.

Just look at T1 152 bar.. it is lower.. but the true ammoutn of space uncovered by it is irrelevant!!! If you need that space to shoot you won´t hit anyway.
Just think how much better you would be if the 'bar' was modelled in the correct postion from the pilot's viewpoint.

HellToupee
01-06-2006, 05:16 PM
the bar wont help much if gone most shots i take in the 190 over the nose are well out of sight of the bar, even in other planes, if its so big a deal roll inverted and pull neg gs for a shot :P

OldMan____
01-06-2006, 05:35 PM
Originally posted by HellToupee:
the bar wont help much if gone most shots i take in the 190 over the nose are well out of sight of the bar, even in other planes, if its so big a deal roll inverted and pull neg gs for a shot :P

exactly, from all that bar, only a few milimiters are not covering nose cowling anyway.

Xiolablu3
01-06-2006, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
i much prefer the dora over the ta152 actully, cant hit with the ta152 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

I'll second that Ping, I find it hard to master the Ta152.

I have only flown it on the 'dogfight' servers AFJ and 334th tho vs La7/Yak3P and the other 'ubers', never in a proper historical scenario like UKdedicated or Warclouds.

Kocur_
01-07-2006, 02:44 AM
Originally posted by OldMan____:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HellToupee:
the bar wont help much if gone most shots i take in the 190 over the nose are well out of sight of the bar, even in other planes, if its so big a deal roll inverted and pull neg gs for a shot :P

exactly, from all that bar, only a few milimiters are not covering nose cowling anyway. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Firstly: its not few mms, its about HALF of sight ring. And trigonometry makes the difference 200m further...
Second: its nonhistorical. Wel, among many others...

OldMan____
01-07-2006, 04:22 AM
half of sigh ring? LOL!! APy attention ... under that bar there is engien hood, so less than 1/2 of the area covered by bar inside this ring would be clear if bar was removed. Tha means 1/4 of a ring what is completely Irrelevant!!! There are hundreds of problems much more serious.

The problems of visibility are much more serious with the rest of cockpit frame due of lack of 6DOF or any other system to simulate the human capabilty to look around this type of stuff.


I never ever lost a kill due to that bar, and I have hundreds of it online with FW190. It is a minimal issue that is only relevant when you are chasing a plane far far away and want to keep flying level (when the small dot could be hidden)

Kocur_
01-07-2006, 04:31 AM
Originally posted by OldMan____:
half of sigh ring? LOL!! APy attention ... under that bar there is engien hood, so less than 1/2 of the area covered by bar inside this ring would be clear if bar was removed. Tha means 1/4 of a ring what is completely Irrelevant!!!

I didnt say half of ring is covered, but that bar width is about half of ring. Engine hood? I guess you didnt notice picture above... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

OldMan____
01-07-2006, 05:59 AM
Originally posted by Kocur_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OldMan____:
half of sigh ring? LOL!! APy attention ... under that bar there is engien hood, so less than 1/2 of the area covered by bar inside this ring would be clear if bar was removed. Tha means 1/4 of a ring what is completely Irrelevant!!!

I didnt say half of ring is covered, but that bar width is about half of ring. Engine hood? I guess you didnt notice picture above... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you din´t noticed I am speaking about what we have in game... if the bar is removed, in game we will see engine hood so there is no adavantage on removing it.

Kocur_
01-07-2006, 06:16 AM
Originally posted by OldMan____:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kocur_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OldMan____:
half of sigh ring? LOL!! APy attention ... under that bar there is engien hood, so less than 1/2 of the area covered by bar inside this ring would be clear if bar was removed. Tha means 1/4 of a ring what is completely Irrelevant!!!

I didnt say half of ring is covered, but that bar width is about half of ring. Engine hood? I guess you didnt notice picture above... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you din´t noticed I am speaking about what we have in game... if the bar is removed, in game we will see engine hood so there is no adavantage on removing it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course its not only about that metal strip of outside windscreen framing, but of entire Fw-190 front view. "The bar" symbolises it only, because thats what we have before our eyes.
The game's modelling of outside view from cocpit is rather primitive, as its based on drawnings, not on what RL pilot could see. Fw-190 'stands out' here, because its harmed like no other by lack of taking into account by game's creators something as obvious as refraction. RL Fw-190 designers simply did, i.e. even though sight was put rather low, front view was not obstructed by anything, because refraction 'pushed' picture of the outside framing and cowling down, and that makes the difference.

luftluuver
01-07-2006, 06:39 AM
Originally posted by OldMan____:
I think you din´t noticed I am speaking about what we have in game... if the bar is removed, in game we will see engine hood so there is no adavantage on removing it.
OldMan, I think you need to look at the excillent Bentley drawings of the 190. From the gunsight recticle, the pilot had a 5*35' downward view. The site line touched at the nose ring. This approx twice what a Spit pilot could view over the nose. The 190 also flew at a slightly nose down attitude.

OldMan____
01-07-2006, 08:40 AM
Originally posted by luftluuver:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OldMan____:
I think you din´t noticed I am speaking about what we have in game... if the bar is removed, in game we will see engine hood so there is no adavantage on removing it.
OldMan, I think you need to look at the excillent Bentley drawings of the 190. From the gunsight recticle, the pilot had a 5*35' downward view. The site line touched at the nose ring. This approx twice what a Spit pilot could view over the nose. The 190 also flew at a slightly nose down attitude. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No one ever proved that nose down thing, in fact if you put the FW at the nose down angle that the miths talk about the wing will be generating negative lift.....

Kocur_
01-07-2006, 08:57 AM
Great! So Eric Brown was wrong and Fw-190 sighting view he described as better than in Spitfire was not by 'nose down' but purely due to that thick, sloped windscreen.

fighter_966
01-07-2006, 09:00 AM
Originally posted by OldMan____:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by luftluuver:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OldMan____:
I think you din´t noticed I am speaking about what we have in game... if the bar is removed, in game we will see engine hood so there is no adavantage on removing it.
OldMan, I think you need to look at the excillent Bentley drawings of the 190. From the gunsight recticle, the pilot had a 5*35' downward view. The site line touched at the nose ring. This approx twice what a Spit pilot could view over the nose. The 190 also flew at a slightly nose down attitude. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No one ever proved that nose down thing, in fact if you put the FW at the nose down angle that the miths talk about the wing will be generating negative lift..... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually I have seen a war time movie about Fw-190 which shows it flying bit nose down attitude
Wings of luftwaffe was the film conserning Fw-190

robban75
01-07-2006, 09:45 AM
The Fw 190 certainly flew with a nose down attitude.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/robban75/190-5.jpg

JuHa-
01-07-2006, 09:54 AM
Depends on angle of incidence, which is defined as:
Angle of Incidence, which is the angle of a flying surface related to a common reference line drawn
by the designer along the fuselage. The designer might want this reference line to be level when
the plane is flying at level flight or when the fuselage is in it's lowest drag position.

Nasa has this nice page too:
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/incline.html

The lift/AoA simulator at the bottom of the page gives some lift even at slightly negative
angles.

--

I can't remember the angle of incidence for a Fw190, but if it's set to pretty high, then
on high speeds the fuselage could point a bit
downwards to reduce AoA. This is assuming a level flight.

luftluuver
01-07-2006, 10:12 AM
Robban, have you read the Bodenplatte book by Manrho/Purz? Interesting tidbit is that H. Bar, flying a D-9 had to keep throttling back because the D-9 cruised at a higher speed than the 109s (G-14, G-14/AS, G-10, K-4) he was flying with.

Sure OldMan, the 190 always flew with a postitive wing incedence. Nice way to create drag. A wing will generate lift when horizontal and this is negative ~3* in relation to the fuselage datum line which puts the nose 'down' even if it is not the full ~3*.

OldMan____
01-07-2006, 10:30 AM
Just get NACA profile on 190 wing and look at table on th amount of lift generated when at the needed angle to have a clean view like the classic nose down diagram shows ( I suppose we are talking about the same thing, when it puts FW with a 7 degree negative angle, enough to have a completely nose free view. A 7 degree negatiev angle on fuselage the wing has negative angle as well...

OldMan____
01-07-2006, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by fighter_966:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OldMan____:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by luftluuver:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OldMan____:
I think you din´t noticed I am speaking about what we have in game... if the bar is removed, in game we will see engine hood so there is no adavantage on removing it.
OldMan, I think you need to look at the excillent Bentley drawings of the 190. From the gunsight recticle, the pilot had a 5*35' downward view. The site line touched at the nose ring. This approx twice what a Spit pilot could view over the nose. The 190 also flew at a slightly nose down attitude. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No one ever proved that nose down thing, in fact if you put the FW at the nose down angle that the miths talk about the wing will be generating negative lift..... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually I have seen a war time movie about Fw-190 which shows it flying bit nose down attitude
Wings of luftwaffe was the film conserning Fw-190 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

what is easier.. a slight twisted camera or a plane flying nose down? (I know a picture from ta movie used to support this arguemnt and it is so twisted that is ridiculous, wing attack edge is pointing down...


Also makign a plane fly nose down would indue a lot of Drga (copy luftluver? ) plane body flying sidesway makes huge drag.

Kocur_
01-07-2006, 10:42 AM
Wing root NACA 23015.3, wing tip NACA 23009.

p1ngu666
01-07-2006, 11:47 AM
the nose slopes down abit? that gives it atleast some of the nose downness.

whitleys flew with a decided nose down attitude, which wasnt well liked actully. the wing was angled for short takeoff. doubt it made the whitley fast, anything but really.

the stirling was gonna have the same, but fortunatly imo, it turned out tobe too much work so it had really long landin gear legs instead.

u can pop combat flaps and change AOA attack, did that with b25 and level stabilzer http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif, old intruder p51 trick http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

btw read a couple of times of 190s banging into the ground chasing mossies who where flying really low http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

OldMan____
01-07-2006, 12:37 PM
maybe , but the amount of nose down defended by many sources is ridiculous the elevator would work as parachutes ....

A very important issue is that FW had a inclined seta, so you had a very strong impression of looking down when looking to front.

robban75
01-07-2006, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by luftluuver:
Robban, have you read the Bodenplatte book by Manrho/Purz? Interesting tidbit is that H. Bar, flying a D-9 had to keep throttling back because the D-9 cruised at a higher speed than the 109s (G-14, G-14/AS, G-10, K-4) he was flying with.



I haven't read it yet, even though I've had the book for quite some time. I've been busy re-reading Axel Urbankes Green Hearts and Sundin/Bergstr¶ms A pair of aces. Fantastic books! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Bremspropeller
01-07-2006, 01:14 PM
Which "green hearts" ?

The D-9 book or is that a completely different work ? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

robban75
01-07-2006, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
Which "green hearts" ?

The D-9 book or is that a completely different work ? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

I'm sorry, I was too lazy not writing the full title of the book, yes it's the "Green hearts first in combat with the Dora-9". http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

LuftWulf190
01-07-2006, 02:54 PM
I really want to get that book when I have the extra cash. The Dora has to be my favorite German fighter!

Bremspropeller
01-07-2006, 03:50 PM
Nevermind http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

I was just curious if there was some more stuff I could set on my whishlist http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif