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okb001
09-05-2007, 11:21 AM
Howdy,

Here's a question for the plane & WWII historians and overall savvy folks of this forum ... How early could the Do-355 have been put in service if the P.59 had not been canceled in early 1940 and priority given to the development of a new multi-role prop. fighter (and less to the Me-262)? (Facts taken from Wikipedia)

Thanks in advance.

cheers!

okb001
09-05-2007, 02:10 PM
If I had to make a (very) uneducated guess, I will put the first delivery to squadrons for summer 1943 ... which is likely to be very optimistic, but allow for 2 or so years of operations, meaning severals IL2 campaigns ;-)

Xiolablu3
09-05-2007, 02:23 PM
Hmm, thats a very tough and alsmot unanswerable question!

Is this for an online dogfight map you are making? Or maybe an offline campaign>?


I find the Do335 to be an absolutely excellent plane on dogfight/miniwar amps. Its incredibly fast and can carry a massive 2000k bomb in its intgernal bomb bay. YOu can race to the target, bomb it, and have a clean plane which is possibly the best B&Zer in the game. Its just so fast, and nothing beats the Mk103 cannon.

Its a real map winner when its available.

Can you tell us a bit more about why you want this info? That would help us to give a better answer regarding plane matchups etc.

Right now I would say very early 1944, if it was rushed forward and have gotten into large scale service. But as I said, its really unanswerable, and only guessable.

okb001
09-05-2007, 02:38 PM
Thanks for the answer Xiolablu3. I'm looking for a somewhat realistic period (not Do-335 vs P.11) at which a dynamic Luftwaffe campaign could be setup (e.g. swap a Me-110 squadron planes for the Do-335) to make use of the Do-335 while respecting the historical time frame of WW2 (after all it's not very clear if any Pfeil ever seen action, there's some reports that some might have).

Friendly_flyer
09-05-2007, 02:41 PM
I think the actual idea for the Pfeil came fairly late. Even if it had be given top priority, I'd be suprised if it would have arrived to squadrons in any meaningful number before spring 1944.

Xiolablu3
09-05-2007, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by okb001:
Thanks for the answer Xiolablu3. I'm looking for a somewhat realistic period (not Do-335 vs P.11) at which a dynamic Luftwaffe campaign could be setup (e.g. swap a Me-110 squadron planes for the Do-335) to make use of the Do-335 while respecting the historical time frame of WW2 (after all it's not very clear if any Pfeil ever seen action, there's some reports that some might have).

Rgr that mate.

The big question is really what are you going to give red in order to balance the fight? A Do335 in early 1944 is going to be quite dominant vs La5FN's and Spitfire IX's (non 25lbs)

The best maps I see online using the Do335 use the Spitfire 25lbs, Yak3 or the La7 type planes in order to keep it a balanced fight and create a good balanced map. Often the numbers of Do335's are also limited to around 15 planes, so the game is not saturated with them.

I think you are going to find it hard to find credible opposition for the Do335 in January 1944. Its possible that if you know how to fly it, and strictly B&Z, the Do335 will just dominate.

A Do335 appearing online on a map which is using January 1944 planes for red, would see everyone flying blue and most people flying red being used as target practice.

Of course the Do335 is not a fighter plane for novices. It doesnt turn well at all, so its strictly B&Z/energy fighting. Definitely not a turn and burner.

It is however extremely fast, and can outtrun any other prop plane IIRC?

okb001
09-05-2007, 02:51 PM
Actually Xiolablu3, I'm mainly concerned about off-line play and mostly about Jabo type missions.

okb001
09-05-2007, 02:53 PM
Friendly_flyer, here's the part of the Wikipedia article on the Do-335 I was referring to earlier:

"In 1939 Dornier was busy working on the P.59 high speed bomber project, which featured the tandem engine layout. In 1940 he commissioned a test aircraft to validate his concept for turning the rear, "pusher" propeller with an engine located far away from it and using a long driveshaft. This aircraft, the Göppingen Gö 9 showed that there were no unforeseen difficulties with this arrangement, but work on the P.59 was stopped in early 1940 when Hermann Göing ordered the cancellation of all projects which would not be complete within a year or so.

In May 1942 Dornier submitted an updated version with a 1,000 kg bombload as the P.231, in response to a requirement for a single seat high speed bomber/intruder (other entries included the Blohm & Voss BV 155). P.231 was selected as the winner after beating rival designs from Arado and Junkers, and a development contract was awarded as the Do 335. In the Autumn of 1942 Dornier was told that the Do 335 was no longer required, and instead a multi-role fighter based on the same general layout would be accepted. This delayed the prototype delivery as it was modified for the new role.

Fitted with Daimler-Benz DB 603A engines delivering 1,750 PS (1, 726 hp, 1,287 kW) at take-off, the first prototype flew in October 1943. The pilots were surprised at the speed, acceleration, turning circle and general handling of the type; it was a twin that flew like a single. The only sore spots they found were the poor rearward visibility and weak landing gear. V2 and V3 incorporated several minor changes; the oil cooler under the nose incorporated into the annular engine cowling, blisters were added to the canopy with small rear view mirrors, and the main undercarriage doors were redesigned.

On May 23, 1944 Hitler ordered maximum priority to be given to Do 335 production. The main production line was intended to be at Manzel, but a bombing raid in March destroyed the tooling and forced Dornier to set up a new line at Oberpfaffenhofen. The decision was made to cancel the Heinkel He 219 and use its production facilities for the Do 335 as well. However, Ernst Heinkel managed to delay, and eventually ignore, its implementation."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do-335

okb001
09-05-2007, 02:59 PM
To be honest, I should confess that I'm just looking for some not too unrealistic excuses to ditch the Fw-190 as soon as possible ;-) Not that the Fw-190 is a bad plane, it's just that the Do-355 is a really neat fun plane.

Friendly_flyer
09-05-2007, 03:01 PM
You're right okb001, the date I suggested is a bit late. However, had the Pfeil gotten the go-ahead in 1939, it probably would be a different aircraft with a weaker engine and perhaps different armament as well. The one we have now is very much a late war plane in all respects.

Oh, and yes, it's a very fun plane to fly!

okb001
09-05-2007, 03:09 PM
Very good point Friendly_flyer. It is indeed built on late war "technologies" ... so do you think that mid 1943 is an acceptable compromise?

VW-IceFire
09-05-2007, 04:38 PM
Maybe assume that the production facilities weren't destroyed in March and then have the initial batch come online sometime later on in 1944... say September. That would seem more reasonable.

DuxCorvan
09-05-2007, 04:49 PM
Ten 335A-0 saw limited operational use with Erprobungskommando 335 (an evaluation and tactical development unit) in September 1944.

Before that, a 335V-9 prototype was used by the I.Staffel of the 'Versuchsverband des Oberbefehlshabers' in operational trials.

The ten A-0 are known to have made several sorties, but no enemy contact is officially reported -although there were some rumors amongst allied pilots then of a weird new German big fighter with the Pfeil configuration.

I'd say... early 1944 as much.

Enforcer572005
09-05-2007, 04:54 PM
Keep in mind that the 335 had a major problem with the cooling of the aft engine. Those things caught on fire alot, and the aft engine had to be monitored carefully.

After the war, the RAF was testing one and was impressed with its speed. Before they could finish the testing, the aft engine flamed and the pilot had to bail. It crashed in an occupied school, so.....

I know that it was rarely encountered, but some Tempests were soundly outrun by it when they jumped one near the end of the war.

okb001
09-05-2007, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by Enforcer572005:
Keep in mind that the 335 had a major problem with the cooling of the aft engine. Those things caught on fire alot, and the aft engine had to be monitored carefully.

Pardon my ignorance but is that something that is simulated in IL2 version of Do-335?

Jaws2002
09-05-2007, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by Enforcer572005:
Keep in mind that the 335 had a major problem with the cooling of the aft engine. Those things caught on fire alot, and the aft engine had to be monitored carefully.

After the war, the RAF was testing one and was impressed with its speed. Before they could finish the testing, the aft engine flamed and the pilot had to bail. It crashed in an occupied school, so.....



If one captured plane caught fire is not necessarily certain that all Do-335's had the same problem.

I'm saying this because I saw reports of captured aircraft that came to not so true conclusions about enemy aircraft.
Two examples: The Zero engine cutting off (because they reassembled the carburetor wrong), The "fogging of the canopy in dive on the Mig-15 ( pressurization system in the craft tested by USAF was not working properly).

What I'm trying to say is that you can't generalize problems from one single, captured, plane tested.

Anyway back to the point. I think you can use Do-335 in early 1944, but 1943 is kind of pushing it.

LEXX_Luthor
09-05-2007, 10:40 PM
For Mythical stuff like this, I also suggest -109Z for long range jabo. Right now I believe Messer had greater hopes on this more conventional design than on the -262, and the F-82Zwilling in Korea proved the concept in long range escort and jabo role, even with the Allison engines.


http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/Lexx_Luthor/Smileys/thumbs.gif
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/Lexx_Luthor/Cockpits/F-82-4.jpg
http://bbs.thirdwire.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=4410&pos...storder=asc&start=40 (http://bbs.thirdwire.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=4410&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=40)

leitmotiv
09-06-2007, 12:11 AM
Fall 1945. Anything else is absolute nonsense. It had priority because it was Milch's baby. 1943 Absurd. 1944 Ridiculous. Enough with the fantasyland stuff. Bad enough we have Soviet jets which did not enter service until 1948 in a "1946" game.

ViktorViktor
09-06-2007, 03:58 AM
I just don't see what's so great about the Do-335. It has outstanding speed, yes, but it seems to have a major fault - an engine in the tail.

When I think of all the times that I sat on some plane's 6 oclock and poured round after round of ammo into the target's rear without result, the idea of attacking a Do-335 makes my mouth water.

Another point is that when I make a deflection shot on a plane, alot of times I see a puff of smoke in the target's tail section - cuz I didn't pull enought lead. But with the Do-335 I get a hit in the engine from either end !

If you hit it good in one engine, I bet it's not fast then.

The only problem is to catch it, but when it gets used as a ground attack aircraft, that should be very possible.

I'm looking forward to the day I meet one online.

Heliopause
09-06-2007, 04:04 AM
1 engine and enough height could give enough getaway speed i think....

leitmotiv
09-06-2007, 05:06 AM
If you use it the right way, you are going too fast to give the opposition a shot, but it does have downsides---like horrible view aft and tremendous size. The A-O is a great bomber and the B is a great bomber killer. An interesting "46" scenario is Bs vs B-17Gs or B-24Js escorted by YP-80s. Gets very hairy.

Jaws2002
09-06-2007, 08:30 AM
Originally posted by ViktorViktor:
I just don't see what's so great about the Do-335. It has outstanding speed, yes, but it seems to have a major fault - an engine in the tail.

When I think of all the times that I sat on some plane's 6 oclock and poured round after round of ammo into the target's rear without result, the idea of attacking a Do-335 makes my mouth water.

Another point is that when I make a deflection shot on a plane, alot of times I see a puff of smoke in the target's tail section - cuz I didn't pull enought lead. But with the Do-335 I get a hit in the engine from either end !

If you hit it good in one engine, I bet it's not fast then.

The only problem is to catch it, but when it gets used as a ground attack aircraft, that should be very possible.

I'm looking forward to the day I meet one online.


You should have been in UK dedicated3 yesterday.
I flew one for a two sorties. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

I poped five russian fighters and some fifty ground targets.

Pfeil is far from being a target in air combat.

okb001
09-06-2007, 09:43 AM
Originally posted by Jaws2002:
Pfeil is far from being a target in air combat.

Well ... that really depend on the pilot, 'cause I got my butt whipped last night against 2 Yaks http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif But of course, I tried to dogfight with them ... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blush.gif

okb001
09-06-2007, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Fall 1945. Anything else is absolute nonsense. It had priority because it was Milch's baby. 1943 Absurd. 1944 Ridiculous. Enough with the fantasyland stuff. Bad enough we have Soviet jets which did not enter service until 1948 in a "1946" game.

I knew my mid 1943 date was a bit far fetched, but is it really that absurd? The prototype first flew in October 43 with delivery starting in January 1945. If the initial work on the Gö 9 had not been canceled in early 40, one could imagine that since it took around a year from the design to the prototype, the prototype could have flew in 1942, with delivery starting mid 1943. Now, since the engine it use wasn't widely available in 1943, an wider use of that plane could fit an early 1944 time frame.

That been said ... eh what do I know? I'm no aeronautics engineer http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Scorpion.233
09-06-2007, 01:55 PM
German tests where engine failure was simulated still had the plane doing 560 km/h on 1 engine.

http://www.luchtoorlog.be/do335.htm

Afraid the site is in Dutch though, but I guess you could stuff it through a translator.

leitmotiv
09-07-2007, 12:16 AM
Originally posted by okb001:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Fall 1945. Anything else is absolute nonsense. It had priority because it was Milch's baby. 1943 Absurd. 1944 Ridiculous. Enough with the fantasyland stuff. Bad enough we have Soviet jets which did not enter service until 1948 in a "1946" game.

I knew my mid 1943 date was a bit far fetched, but is it really that absurd? The prototype first flew in October 43 with delivery starting in January 1945. If the initial work on the Gö 9 had not been canceled in early 40, one could imagine that since it took around a year from the design to the prototype, the prototype could have flew in 1942, with delivery starting mid 1943. Now, since the engine it use wasn't widely available in 1943, an wider use of that plane could fit an early 1944 time frame.

That been said ... eh what do I know? I'm no aeronautics engineer http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The airplane had priority with Milch and the Fighter Staff. If it could have been put into production in '44 or early '45, it would have been put into production.

LEXX_Luthor
09-07-2007, 07:11 PM
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/Lexx_Luthor/Smileys/thumbs.gif

okb001::
I knew my mid 1943 date was a bit far fetched, but is it really that absurd? The prototype first flew in October 43 with delivery starting in January 1945. If the initial work on the Gö 9 had not been canceled in early 40, one could imagine that since it took around a year from the design to the prototype, the prototype could have flew in 1942, with delivery starting mid 1943. Now, since the engine it use wasn't widely available in 1943, an wider use of that plane could fit an early 1944 time frame.
OKB, that's an excellent mythological development excersize. Czech out the Thudwire thread below to see how I do it (starting on page 3) -- how to rationalize production aircraft in a SAC vs PVO 1947 to 1967 fantasy. No 1949 USAF "budget crises" for example. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/Lexx_Luthor/Smileys/Wink.gif

~> http://bbs.thirdwire.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=4410&pos...storder=asc&start=24 (http://bbs.thirdwire.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=4410&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=24)