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View Full Version : Bomber Gunners Take Too Many Hits!



Lanzfeld_13
02-26-2006, 09:02 AM
I have been setting up tests against bombers and I pump ALOT of rounds into them and then I look at them. You can see the individual gunners and I have to say that it is so very rare to kill one.

I mean the whole aircraft is riddled with holes but all the gunners are okay? This is not right!

Can anyone shed some light here?

WB_Outlaw
02-26-2006, 10:21 AM
Only a very few, if any gunners will LOOK dead. The only way to tell is if they are shooting at you.

I do agree though, gunners in some aircraft should be killed more often or at least wounded to the extent that they can't return fire.

--Outlaw.

Zeus-cat
02-26-2006, 10:47 AM
The game developers kept the blood and gore to a minimum to avoid adult ratings in some countries. Gunners can be dead or wounded and not look like it.

FritzGryphon
02-26-2006, 02:01 PM
Use arcade mode to see when gunners are being killed. It happens quite often.

But, it's not easy to notice whether a gun is firing, or not. So you may wipe out 3 or 4 guys in a bomber, but not realize it. You will only notice the guns that are firing at you.

------

But I do agree, they do take too many hits to kill.

Me and a squadie tested the bomber gunner durability in a version of FB.

With a He-111H2 and Bf-109E. The Bf-109 firing tiny bursts at the He-111 ventral gunner.

I noted that it usually took 5 hits or more to kill the ventral gunner, by the shades of red the screen turned. Though being difficult to see through the red, an injured gunner performs the same as an unhurt one.

Now, the MG-17 is not the most powerful gun in the game, but it's convievable that any machinegun bullet hitting the torso or head of a gunner would disable him, if not kill, assuming no armor.

Testing the M2 machine gun against pilots, they usually get 1 shot kills with direct (no armor) hits. Though, it's not clear if pilots and gunners use the same damage method.

Lanzfeld_13
02-26-2006, 02:06 PM
I too was playing with arcade on to see my hits (great feature!!!) and I noticed that some of my shot arrows would go through the dead center of a gunners chest and I would not get a "gunner knocked out" arcade message.

This is not real.

Is there a graphic of a gunner slumped over or something to tell me he is dead or hurt? I did see the rear gunner in a VAL just vanish once annd the pilot remained. Is this what happens when they are killed?

Also....what effect does Gore=1 have?

icrash
02-26-2006, 02:13 PM
Gore = 1 cuts on the gore feature found on some planes. Not all planes have this feature. I think the IL2 has it, some blood splatter w/ slumped over rear gunner. I cut it on but am usually to busy trying avoid fire to notice it.

jarink
02-26-2006, 05:27 PM
Can AI gunners switch positions to replace dead or injured ones? It often happened in real life.

FritzGryphon
02-26-2006, 06:20 PM
Can AI gunners switch positions to replace dead or injured ones?

Not in PF.

Remember that some positions would be difficult or impossible to get to, like tail or ball positions. Especially if you had to drag the incapacitated gunner out first.

It would also mean abandoning the gun they were using before.

FritzGryphon
02-26-2006, 07:03 PM
I just tried out bomber gunner durabilty on a B-17. Bf-109 with MG17

http://members.shaw.ca/fennec/gunner.jpg

Single shot to the head, range 50m, killed tail gunner. It is possible to get 1 hit kill on the AI gunner, even with just 7mm bullet.

http://members.shaw.ca/fennec/gunner2.jpg

Ball gunner killed by 5-6 body hits.

http://members.shaw.ca/evilgryphon/gunner3.jpg

He-111 now. This guy is swiss cheese, with many headshots, but still alive. The DM is clearly different from the B-17.

I come to the conclusion that the gunner durability is widely variable. It is probably determined by the collision and damage model for the plane they reside in. In some planes, reasonably realistic. In other planes, totally wrong. Perhaps the newer bombers have a more complex DM, and more realistic gunner durability.

In any case, it's unrealistic to think it will be fixed on the old planes, as it would probably involve redoing the plane's DM to the new standards. I suppose we'll have to look to BoB for better gunner damage model.



On an unrelated note, the MG17 has an explosive shell in it's loadout. Neat.