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View Full Version : For those who fly in VOW2 or any other Online War- an awards dispute....



PBNA-Boosher
10-10-2005, 10:42 AM
http://www.vow-hq.com/forum/index.php?topic=706.0

Post reactions here or there.

civildog
10-10-2005, 11:52 PM
I posted it in VOW too, but here it is again:

The spirit of your intent is a good one and ordinarily I would agree, but not this time. Historically, and I'm surprised you didn't know this, various nations did give pilots medals based solely on kill counts. The Germans had a well-defined order of merit that set up the kill numbers required per medal all the way up to the highest award. The Soviets, for instance, awarded the Hero of the Soviet Union to any IL2 pilot who survived 10 missions.

I do agree, though, that special consideration might be given to such medals as the Navy Cross, or Victorian Cross, since medals like those were specifically made to honor bravery above n' beyond. I think awarding such medals for that sort of thing is beyond the scope of the VOW community and would be better left to the squadron the pilot belongs to since these were awards particular to the nation the pilot flies for, and because each squadron should be able to define it's own system for awarding such things as defined by that group's goals. For some of us the nominal role-playing aspect of our squadrons is greatly enhanced by such reward systems in our ranks. Helps inspire teamwork, leadership, and all that stuff.

Additionally, VOW exists to provide a framework for squadrons to play within, but it does not create a virtual war in the sense of Forgotten Skies or Bellum War. Battles are random affairs and the "campaign" moves along a set path with no chance to alter the course of the war, capture territory, or otherwise participate in something more akin to a real conflict. Therefore any acts of bravery only affect the squadron in the battle of the moment and do not have any greater impact on VOW. So it makes more sense that the individual squadrons are the best to decide on how to award bravery within their ranks.

SithSpeeder
10-10-2005, 11:54 PM
An interesting thought. We have similar awards in our squad, for example, that have nothing to do with kills. The main problem you'd have to overcome, I would think, would be finding the volunteer "review board" that would say "yea" or "nay" on the particular action. This takes time and effort of a group of people to give out awards based on a subjective criteria.

I think it is a worthy idea, just don't know where you'd get the "volunteers". Unless there is truly a command staff for each side that is willing and able to do this in a timely manner.

Perhaps a more feasible solution would be to create a forum on the applicable sites that would not nominate someone, but recount the tale for the rest of the viewing public. Posting the story would only take one or two persons to input and would stand as a testament to that person's character.

* _54th_Speeder *

***
Just as most issues are seldom black or white, so are most good
solutions seldom black or white. Beware of the solution that requires
one side to be totally the loser and the other side to be totally the
winner. The reason there are two sides to begin with usually is
because neither side has all the facts. Therefore, when the wise
mediator effects a compromise, he is not acting from political
motivation. Rather, he is acting from a deep sense of respect for the
whole truth.
-- Stephen R. Schwambach
***

WOLFMondo
10-11-2005, 01:16 AM
You can't aware a Victoria cross to a virtual pilot! Do you know the criteria which you have to meet to get it and how does a virtual pilot show bravery when there is no life to gamble with!??

carguy_
10-11-2005, 04:39 AM
I saw many guys doing crazy things.
Men with 20mission streaks fighting with two red planes,downing them and destroying 4 transport planes after.I call that brave.

You can save a pilot.You need to land on enemy territory and shut the engine.People did this even with enemies still being in the vicinity.I call that brave.

WOLFMondo
10-11-2005, 10:17 AM
A real life and a virtual life are completely different.http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

PBNA-Boosher
10-11-2005, 11:00 AM
That may be the case, WOLFMondo, but what are we trying to simulate here? and to that effect, what are better ways we could do it?

civildog
10-11-2005, 01:09 PM
WolfMONDO - You are aware, of course, that in most simulations you can win historical awards? In fact, EAW (among others) allows you to win the Victoria Cross depending on the results of your mission.

And of course putting your virtual hind end on the line in a simulation isn't the same as real life. Since I hang my real hind end out everyday in the real world I know that probably better than most people can ever imagine by playing a game.

What Boosher and I are talking about is yet another layer of immersion to add more atmosphere and fun to a game. DF room types don't seem to worry about this sort of thing as much, but those of us who play Coops and virtual wars do.

WholeHawg
10-11-2005, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
You can't aware a Victoria cross to a virtual pilot! Do you know the criteria which you have to meet to get it and how does a virtual pilot show bravery when there is no life to gamble with!??

Well its not like the VC with an invite to an award ceromony will show up on your doorstep.

Its a Virtual Award for a virtual pilot. Keep in mind this is a game.

I think its our little fantasy world and I say we can do what ever we want with it, within the boundries of good taste.

I dont see how imaginary medals for imaginary bravery violates and standard of ethics or good taste.

p1ngu666
10-11-2005, 01:35 PM
guy gibson and cheasire where both awarded VC's for sustained bravery and results.

there was also two types of other medals, DFC/DSO imiditate for a single (normaly) act, or "normal" which came through slowly, for completing so many ops effectivily.

civildog
10-11-2005, 01:44 PM
So there you go - you don't have to make a last stand single-handedly against a Zulu impi to get the VC.

But as far as the MOH goes, there aren't enough machinegun nests to assault in FB, or hand grenades to jump on to save your buddies. Wait! What if you bail out of your plane into the path of a 20mm Minengeschossen to save your wingman? That's kinda grenade like.

PBNA-Boosher
10-11-2005, 04:12 PM
I'm sure there are ways we could come up with things or situations for it.

The Butch O'Hare example might work. he is the only obstacle, everyone else is lagging behind, and there are 16 Betty's attacking your Carrier- He shoots down an impossible number of them, impeding their progress until help arrives.

OR

If not awards, commendations. In a forum someone could nominate the Good conduct medal, for an example, to a pilot on an opposite side for being a gentleman pilot. In the original VOW, in the very beginning, if you remember, one of the top aces was also the most gentlemanly pilot you'll meet. His kills weren't a statistic to this person, he considered his role in game to damage an enemy aircraft to the point where it could no longer complete its objectives. Sometimes the wings were sawed off, but other times the plane was so badly damaged that the pilot could no longer have very much control. INSTEAD OF pumping more lead into the enemy plane, this pilot would fly alongside it and guide it down, then waggle his wings and fly off. Chances are that he never recieved half of his "kills," but he made everyone feel something different when he flew in the server.

Tooz_69GIAP
10-12-2005, 02:17 AM
Below is a translated document which I believe is genuine. I have asked various people who are knowledgable about these things, and they have no reasons to think it is not genuine.

It describes the criteria to be met for awards to be given to VVS personnel, and was issued to try and encourage a better performance from airmen and their crews.

Also, in this game, it is not possible to give out medals based on "acts of bravery" because the game cannot calculate that. What the guys at ADW war do, however, is allocate awards to a squadron, rather than a pilot based on streaks, kills, ground kills, etc, and the CO of that squad decides who gets the awards. So if an award is allocated, and a particular pilot has done something in the game that would be construed as "brave", then that pilot can be awarded a medal. I think that is a reasonable way of doing things.

But anyway, as far as I am aware, most air forces in WWII gave awards based on the meeting of certain criteria like numbers of sorties and numbers of kills, including the RAF. Pierre Clostermann describes this criteria in The Big Show; although he does say that awards were given out in a rather inconsistent manner.

But anyway, check out the document below:

Order of the People's Commissar of Defense of the USSR

No.299 of 19 August 1941.


In order to encourage and reward the flight personnel of the Red Army Air Force in the fight against German Fascism, I ordain the following order of nominating the flyers, commanders and commissars:

I

A. Fighters.

1. For each shot-down enemy aircraft - bonus 1,000 Roubles.

2. Additionally to the money bonus, the fighter pilot is awarded

- Decoration from the Government for 3 kills;

- The second decoration for the next 3 kills;

- The Hero of the Soviet Union for 10 kills.

3. For successful attacks on ground targets the flyers are awarded as follows:

- For 5 combat missions with bonus of 1,500 Roubles;

- For 15 missions the pilot of the fighter is awarded with the decoration from the Government and bonus of 2,000 Roubles;

- For 25 missions the pilot is awarded with the second decoration and bonus of 3,000 Roubles;

- For 40 missions the pilot of fighter is awarded with the Hero of the Soviet Union and bonus of 5,000 Roubles.

In all cases the results and effectiveness must be confirmed by the commanders of the ground troops or by reconnaissance.

4. For the destruction of the enemy's aircraft on the ground fighter pilots are awarded as follows:

- For 4 missions on the attack of airfields the pilot is awarded 1,500 Roubles;

- For 10 missions at the daytime or 5 missions at nighttime the pilot is awarded the decoration and bonus of 2,000 Roubles;

- For 20 missions in daytime or 10 missions in nighttime the pilot is awarded the second decoration and bonus of 3,000 Roubles;

- For 35 missions in daytime or 20 missions in nighttime the pilot is awarded the Hero of the Soviet Union and bonus of 5,000 Roubles.

The results of actions against the enemy's airfields must be confirmed by photographs or reconnaissance.

The pilot, who rammed the aircraft of the enemy, is also awarded the decoration.

The number of shot-down aircraft is determined in each specific case by witnessing of the pilot at the place of crashing aircraft or by determining the place of the crash of the aircraft by the commander of the air regiment.

B. Ground attack and tactical bombers.

1. For 10 missions at the daytime or 5 missions at the nighttime for bombing and destruction of objects each crewmember is awarded with the decoration and bonus of 1,000 Roubles.

2. For 20 missions at the daytime or 10 missions at the nighttime for bombing and destruction of objects each crewmember is awarded with the second decoration and bonus of 2,000 Roubles.

3. For 35 missions at the daytime or 20 missions at the nighttime at bombing and destruction of objects each crewmember is awarded with the Hero of the Soviet Union and bonus of 3,000 Roubles.

In all cases the results must be confirmed by the photos taken during the raid or by the reco photos in 3-4 Hours after the raid.

4. Independant of the number of carried out missions, the pilot, navigator or gunner, who personally shot down an enemy aircraft is awarded with:

- Bonus of 1,000 Roubles for 1 aircraft;

- The decoration and bonus of 1,500 Roubles for 2 aircraft;

- The second nomination and bonus of 2,000 Roubles for 5 aircraft;

- The Hero of the Soviet Union and bonus 5,000 Roubles for 8 aircraft.

C. Long-range and heavy bombers.

1. For raids on the industrial and defense targets the crews are awarded as follows:

- For each successful bombing each crewmember receives 500 Roubles;

- For 5 successful raids each crewmember receives a decoration additional to the bonus;

- For 8 successful raids additional to the bonus each crewmember is bestowed with the second decoration;

- For 12 successful raids each crewmember is awarded the Hero of the Soviet Union and bonus;

2. For the successful action in the tactical rear of the enemy the crews of the long-ranged and heavy bombers are awarded in the same order as the crews of the close-support and ground-attack aviation.

3. For the raids on the political centre (capital city):

- For each raid each crewmember receive 2,000 Roubles;

- For 3 successful raids each crewmember is bestowed with the decoration;

- For 5 successful raids each crewmember is awarded with the second decoration;

- For 10 successful raids each crewmember is awarded with the Hero of the Soviet Union.

D. For the reconnaissance missions:

- For 10 missions at the daytime or 5 night missions each crewmember is awarded with the decoration and 1,000 Roubles;

- For 20 missions at the daytime or 10 night missions each crewmember is awarded with the second decoration and 2,000 Roubles;

- For 40 missions at the daytime or 15 night missions each crewmember is awarded with the Hero of the Soviet Union and 3,000 Roubles.

In all cases the results must be confirmed by aerial photos or by reports from other crews, flying to destroy the found objects, or confirmation by other crews.

II

Nomination of Red Army AF units and commanders.

Commanders of front Air forces honour air regiments and squadrons with State decorations on the basis of results combined with minimal losses of both personnel and materiel.

Commanders and commissars of regiments and squadrons are nominated if:

A. Fighters.

Squadron leader and commissar are awarded membership of Order of Lenin, if their squadron destroyed not less than 15 enemy aircraft with loss of no more than 3 of their own aircraft.

Regiment commander and commissar are awarded membership of Order of Lenin, if their regiment destroyed not less than 30 enemy aircraft with loss of no more than 5 of their own aircraft.

B. Ground attack and tactical bombers.

Squadron leader and commissar are awarded State decoration, if their squadron fulfilled not less than 100 missions with loss of no more than 3 of their own aircraft.

Regiment commander and commissar are awarded membership of Order of Lenin, if their regiment fulfilled not less than 250 missions with loss of no more than 6 of their own aircraft.

C. Long range and heavy bombers.

Squadron leader and commissar are awarded membership of Order of Lenin, if their squadron fulfilled not less than 50 bombing raids with loss of no more than 2 of their own aircraft.

Regiment commander and commissar are awarded membership of Order of Lenin, if their regiment fulfilled not less than 150 bombing raids with loss of no more than 5 of their own aircraft.

D. Reconnaissance units.

Commissar and squadron leader of squadron performing not less than 100 short-range missions or not less than 50 long-range missions, with loss of not more than 3 of their own aircraft, are awarded membership of the Order of Lenin.

III

Rewards for saving materiel and aircraft.

Both flight and ground personnel are awarded money bonuses for preserving materiel and for accident-free flights, as follows:

- Pilots of any rank and class for each 100 flights without accident, excluding training, are paid 5,000 Roubles. The loss of orientation in flight prevents award.

- Ground personnel receives 3,000 Roubles for each 100 flights without breakdowns.

- Engineer-officers receive 25 per cent from total bonus sum paid to the technical personnel.

- For each aircraft repaired to high standards, personnel of mobile repair shops each receives 500 Roubles per plane.

- For repair of more than 50 aircraft, personnel of mobile repair shops receive a State decoration.

IV

Prevention of sabotage.

Commanders and commissars of divisions are to investigate in detail each case of crash landing and other accidents leading to damage to aircraft.

If crash landing or other accident occurred without obvious or reasonable explanation, persons guilty are subject to court martial as deserters.

The present order is in force from August 20, 1941.

People's Commissar of Defense J.V. Stalin

civildog
10-12-2005, 01:23 PM
Excellent find, Tooz! It appears to be genuine...I've seen it in other books and the rewards are mentioned in various pilots' accounts. Explains how pilots such as Pavlov became 3x HSU winners for flying ground attack missions (not that that was a cakewalk by any means - just consider the loss rate among IL2 pilots and how the rewards differ for them in daytime vs. night missions).

This is just a game and I have yet to survive more 10-12 daylight attacks in a sturmovik - I can't imagine making it through 30 or more.

I agree that the "heroic action" awards should be decided among the individual squadrons.

Also, some squadrons might not want to participate in that type of thing, their emphasis might not be on a successful mission and making it back alive (that's my sqdn's primary goal, individual kills are just iing on the cake..for example), rather it might be racking up kills and seeing who can get the highest score that way (not that there's anyhting wrong with that).

The first example has the (however small and informal) role-playing/ immersion element that would be interested in gaining virtual awards, while the second probably not.

LEBillfish
10-12-2005, 01:50 PM
You guys would really be bent if you flew for the Nippon Rikugun Koukuutai....(Japanese Army Flying Corps).......

You got NOTHING!!!...well except to starve, be exposed to numerous diseases, constant attact, beatings and prison time from superiors for even the smallest offense (just as hard on their own as you hear of on prisoners).....etc.etc.....

However there is some good news!!!!!......When you get killed in action they MIGHT bump you in rank one notch. Medal?.....a medal doesn't fill the belly http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

SithSpeeder
10-12-2005, 04:00 PM
If crash landing or other accident occurred without obvious or reasonable explanation, persons guilty are subject to court martial as deserters. Oh man, count me OUT of that http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

I crack up my poor plane on landing often enough to change my name to some variant of "CRASH". I believe they used to shoot deserters.

* _54th_Speeder *

p1ngu666
10-12-2005, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by CivilDog:
So there you go - you don't have to make a last stand single-handedly against a Zulu impi to get the VC.

But as far as the MOH goes, there aren't enough machinegun nests to assault in FB, or hand grenades to jump on to save your buddies. Wait! What if you bail out of your plane into the path of a 20mm Minengeschossen to save your wingman? That's kinda grenade like.

most VC's where awarded to ppl trying to save there crew i think.

only fighter one was when a hurri flight was bounced, all 3 had some damage, one was on flame, he was gonna bail then he saw a 110, so he shot it down, then bailed. he got horrible burns for his trouble, and a VC.

there was the liberator that got hit by flak attackin a uboat, a engine on fire they kept on diving, sank the uboat but crashed.
was on the account of the uboat crew survivors that the pilot was awarded VC.

civildog
10-12-2005, 08:36 PM
pingu!! I would have thought that you of all people would have smelled the sharp tang of satire about MG pillboxes, and jumping on aerial grenades!

p1ngu666
10-12-2005, 09:33 PM
a aussie got a vc for pwning some japeanease pillboxes iirec.

and a guy (gerkah or however u spell it) got them for chuckin nades back at the japanease, and remaining at his post and carry on fighting when one of his hands where blown off.

to earn a VC u normaly haveto do something to save others and or do something very brave and successful. and be selfless.

it is the highest award for gallentry, and your unlikely to get it if your alive. and it can NEVER be removed. a VC is *earned*.

far as i know, theres only the medal of honour, and the old hero of the soviet union(but thats not so exclusive), im sure theres others.

ill see if i can dig up some of the citations of VC's http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

civildog
10-12-2005, 09:58 PM
Here are the lists of citations for the Congressional Medal of Honor for all the US wars.

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/moh1.htm

They are all good, but the early descriptions are less detailed. Start wih the ones for WW1 and up...they will make your ****** shrink, drop off, and roll away under the bed when you think of how much steel these guys had hanging there.

These days anyone who survives so much as an infected hangnail is called a "hero", but these guys were the real thing.

civildog
10-12-2005, 10:00 PM
Here's just one example:

*GALT, WILLIAM WYLIE

Rank and organization: Captain, U.S. Army, 168th Infantry, 34th Infantry Division. Place and date: At Villa Crocetta, Italy, 29 May 1944. Entered service at: Stanford, Mont. Birth: Geyser, Mont. G.O. No.: 1, 1 February 1945. Citation: For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity above and beyond the call of duty. Capt. Galt, Battalion S3, at a particularly critical period following 2 unsuccessful attacks by his battalion, of his own volition went forward and ascertained just how critical the situation was. He volunteered, at the risk of his life, personally to lead the battalion against the objective. When the lone remaining tank destroyer refused to go forward, Capt. Galt jumped on the tank destroyer and ordered it to precede the attack. As the tank destroyer moved forward, followed by a company of riflemen, Capt. Galt manned the .30-caliber machinegun in the turret of the tank destroyer, located and directed fire on an enemy 77mm. anti-tank gun, and destroyed it. Nearing the enemy positions, Capt. Galt stood fully exposed in the turret, ceaselessly firing his machinegun and tossing hand grenades into the enemy zigzag series of trenches despite the hail of sniper and machinegun bullets ricocheting off the tank destroyer. As the tank destroyer moved, Capt. Galt so maneuvered it that 40 of the enemy were trapped in one trench. When they refused to surrender, Capt. Galt pressed the trigger of the machinegun and dispatched every one of them. A few minutes later an 88mm shell struck the tank destroyer and Capt. Galt fell mortally wounded across his machinegun. He had personally killed 40 Germans and wounded many more. Capt. Galt pitted his judgment and superb courage against overwhelming odds, exemplifying the highest measure of devotion to his country and the finest traditions of the U.S. Army.

VW-IceFire
10-12-2005, 10:08 PM
There is also the story of RCAF pilot Lt. "Hammy" Gray who flew in the Pacific during 1944-45 (possibly other times) with the Fleet Air Arm.

He was awarded the VC (posthumously) during an attack on a Japanese destroyer. The destroyer was hiding in a bay along the Japanese coastline...his squadron was caught in the crossfire...his plane was hit, one of his 500lb bombs was blown off the plane, and his Corsair lit on fire.

He pressed on, dropping the bomb which hit the side of the ship and exploded. The Japanese destroyer rolled over and sank and Lt. Gray's Corsair hit the sea on fire.

He was awarded the VC for bravery and single handedly sinking a Japanese destroyer.

Tooz_69GIAP
10-13-2005, 09:18 AM
That reminds me of a quote from Adrian Warburton as written in the book Fortress Malta: there was an instance where Warby was flying with some Beauforts from Malta attacking some Italian shipping to get the pix. One of the Beaufort crews bailed outsome distance from the two ships, and Warburton started circling over them, despite getting shot at by the escorting destroyer, and the merchantman. After having flown over the two ships at mast height, and circled the downed crew several times (flying an unarmed spitfire) waggling his wings, and all asorts, the crews on the ships finally twigged and went and picked up the downed crew. Otherwise they would never have been seen.

Everyone reckoned he deserved the VC for this, but Warburton, when it was mentioned to him, said: "there's a nasty word called "posthumous" that goes with that!"