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Eow_TK
12-12-2009, 02:32 PM
Back when the F-86 came on the scene, what was the typical fighting style against Mig-15s? I'm going to take a guess and say it changed somewhat as the different Sabre models developed. Thanks

jamesblonde1979
12-12-2009, 03:30 PM
I don't know much about it myself except that it took some time for the Allies to evaluate the MiG, a reward was offered to anybody who defected with one or something...

That's just from playing "Chuck Yeager's Air Combat." back in the day though...

From what I can gather the MiG-15 was a pretty dangerous aircraft to fly.

na85
12-12-2009, 04:00 PM
IIRC the Sabre has a level speed and dive advantage, as well as high-speed turn once the hydraulically boosted versions came on the scene.

MiG-15 has climb rate and low speed turn advantage, not to mention firepower with that 37mm.

Woke_Up_Dead
12-12-2009, 04:18 PM
Here is an interesting comparison from an American pilot's point of view: http://www.acepilots.com/planes/f86_sabre.html

In summary, the US pilot says his Sabre could fly faster, outperform it in turns, and was much easier to recover from in a spin, while the MiG could climb better and higher. I read somewhere else that the radar-aided gun-sight was also a big advantage.

As always, similar interview with Russian or Chinese pilots are harder to find. Too bad, I'm sure many of them figured out areas where the MiG had the advantage that a successful US pilot wouldn't know about.

Eow_TK
12-12-2009, 04:52 PM
Thanks for the link woke_up_dead. It would be really interesting if we could find what the Russians or Chinese had to say about the issue. But like most combat stories, they normally are only told by one side, so its biased a bit.

Over at Oshkosh this past summer, there was a Mig15 parked there that I got my picture with. You guys have seen the size of those cannons right? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif I can see how that would be an advantage. lol.

Is it true that many Mig pilots didn't even have G-suits? The Americans were using them by the '50s, so that would also be a major factor.

Metatron_123
12-12-2009, 05:27 PM
The cannons are good, but with a low ammo load. 80 rounds for the 23mm guns and only 40 for the 37 mm one.

Eow_TK
12-12-2009, 05:29 PM
Now if they could have had a machine gun or two, with all tracers for aiming. It might have been effective against fighters too.

BillSwagger
12-12-2009, 08:07 PM
Not that i know anything about Migs, but it just seems that they were designed to climb quick, hit a bomber formation, and then climb away from any escort fighters. Its ammo being the limitation in a dogfight, although possible, i just don't see it being the optimum dog fighter plane for that reason. Tactically, they were used to hit bombers more often than not, am I wrong?

I'm sure Migs fought plenty of dog fights using loops and spiral climbs tightening as they slowed. Much of the developement of the Sabre(s)was probably getting better range and altitude performance from it so Sabres could do their best to start with a significant height advantage.



Just my take on it.

Bill

Eow_TK
12-12-2009, 08:52 PM
You are right Bill. They were often used to knock down B-29s. At night also. I have a bunch of articles and stories of Skynights chasing down Migs at night while escorting the B-29 formations.

jamesblonde1979
12-13-2009, 03:22 AM
Big cannons but a slow rate of fire. I'd rather have the Sabre's armament as you would be more likely to get hits in snap-shots with six fifties.

JG53Frankyboy
12-13-2009, 03:38 AM
Originally posted by Woke_Up_Dead:
Here is an interesting comparison from an American pilot's point of view: http://www.acepilots.com/planes/f86_sabre.html

................

to my knowlegde this is the story about the "6-3" wing during Korea :
"In an attempt to improve the high-speed performance of the Sabre, a fixed wing leading edge was tested on three aircraft in August of 1952. These aircraft had the wing leading edge slats eliminated and their wing leading edges extended by six inches at the root and three inches at the tip. The wing area went from 287.9 to 302.3 square feet, and the angle of leading edge sweep increased slightly to 35.7 degrees. Airflow pattern changes over the wing required the addition of five-inch-high wing fences at 70 percent span. Since the leading edge extension occurred in front of the main wing spar, the extended leading edge could be used to accommodate some additional fuel, raising total internal fuel capacity from 435 to 505 US gallons.

This wing, soon to be known as the "6-3 wing", immediately demonstrated improved combat qualities. The "6-3" wing increased maximum speed from 688 to 695 mph at sea level and from 604 to 608 mph at 35,000 feet. In addition, there was a slight improvement in range. The most significant improvement was, however, in the maneuverability at high altitudes and at high Mach numbers. By delaying the onset of buffeting, the new wing gave the Sabre pilot the ability to fly closer to the maximum G-limit, enabling tighter turns at high altitudes. About 1.5 Gs were added to the maneuverability at 35,000 feet. Unfortunately, the improved high-speed performance came at the expense of losing the low-speed advantages of the slatted wing. Stalling speed went up from 128 to 144 mph, and the stall was now preceded by a yaw-and-roll effect. This resulted in a faster final landing approach speed and necessitated a longer landing roll.

Fifty "6-3" wing conversion kits were shipped to Korea in high secrecy in September of 1952 to convert F-86F aircraft already there to the new configuration. Enough kits were eventually supplied to convert all Korean-based F-86Fs and some F-86Es to this new configuration. The "6-3" wing was introduced as standard production line equipment starting with the 171st F-86F-25-NH (51-13341) and the 200th F-86F-30-NA (52-4505). No F-86F-25s were actually sent to Korea, with most of the combat aircraft used in Korean combat being early Fs from F-1 through F-15, plus large numbers of F-30s.

The "6-3" wing was an immediate success, quickly boosting Sabre victories in Korea. With the "6-3-wing" F-86F, the USAF now had a fighter which could match the maximum speed of the MiG at altitudes all the way up to the Sabre's service ceiling of 47,000 feet, could turn inside the MiG, and which had almost as great a rate of climb."

after the war the "6-3" got slats again http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
-> "The first F-86F-40-NA (serial number 55-3816) rolled out of the factory in October of 1955. The new F-86F was basically similar to the earlier F-86F Sabres and was powered by the same J47-GE-27 of the earlier Fs and had the fuselage, weapons system, and flight controls of the standard F, but had a different wing. It had the "6-3" extended wing leading edge of the earlier Fs, but leading edge slats were once again fitted in an attempt to improve the low speed handling properties. In addition, the wing tips were extended, increasing the wing area from 302.3 square feet to 313.4 square feet and the wing span from 37.12 feet to 39.11 feet. The original F-86F aileron was part of the wingtip, while the F-40 aileron was separate.

The wing slats and the increased wing area markedly improved the handling, especially at low speeds. The low-speed roll-and-yaw problem which had plagued the "6-3" F-86F Sabres was largely eliminated. Stalling speed was reduced from 144 mph to 124 mph, and 800 feet were shaved from the takeoff ground run. The slat actuators and wingtip extensions added about 250 pounds to the weight, but performance was almost identical to that of a standard F-86F.

These improvements in handling and turning ability led the USAF to decide to upgrade many of their existing F-86F-25 and F-86F-30 Sabres to F-86F-40 standards. North American supplied the Air Force with modification kits containing the new wing leading edge, slat assemblies, wingtip extensions, and new ailerons. Many Sabre-equipped foreign air forces also upgraded their Sabres to F-40 standards through use of these kits. Only the Canadair and Commonwealth Sabres were not equipped with F-40 wing kits, although both types could accept the installation if needed."

PanzerAce
12-13-2009, 04:51 AM
Originally posted by BillSwagger:
Not that i know anything about Migs, but it just seems that they were designed to climb quick, hit a bomber formation, and then climb away from any escort fighters. Its ammo being the limitation in a dogfight, although possible, i just don't see it being the optimum dog fighter plane for that reason. Tactically, they were used to hit bombers more often than not, am I wrong?

I'm sure Migs fought plenty of dog fights using loops and spiral climbs tightening as they slowed. Much of the developement of the Sabre(s)was probably getting better range and altitude performance from it so Sabres could do their best to start with a significant height advantage.



Just my take on it.

Bill

That is pretty much correct. The russians (from the downed B-29s in their territory) knew pretty much exactly what they were going to be going up against in any war with the US, so they focused on hitting the bombers as fast as possible. Sure, it isn't the best armament scheme for hitting fighters, but then, fighters couldn't carry nukes or bombloads large enough to be feared.

K_Freddie
12-13-2009, 10:27 AM
The Migss were more agile at low speeds, but as the speeds and G forces increased, the Mig began to fail. This where the Sabres had an advantage

I read some reports that the sabre pilots could escape the Mig by flying in a high speed downward spiral pulling close to 5 Gs.. Around this limit the Mig would start to 'stall out', and would break off the attack - giving the sabre an escape window.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Urufu_Shinjiro
12-13-2009, 11:09 AM
A more important questions, since the mod sabres and mig15s (not to mention F9F and F84) came out has anyone made a Korea campaign yet?

stalkervision
12-13-2009, 11:13 AM
The original MiG Alley by Rowan has a sh-t load of historical material on Korea including actual USA restricted papers on flight tactics. Well worth buying if possible still.

This is from the game and might help..

http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~ianboys/migstrat.htm (http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/%7Eianboys/migstrat.htm)

thefruitbat
12-13-2009, 11:21 AM
I know of some mission builders who are waiting for this to go final, these are from a 1:1 scale map of korea thats in beta,

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y290/thefruitbat1/1312200918-12-02.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y290/thefruitbat1/1312200918-12-54.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y290/thefruitbat1/131220090-36-27.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y290/thefruitbat1/1212200923-14-11.jpg

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

berg417448
12-13-2009, 01:32 PM
I don't have the link for this any more but here are a couple of quotes from Russian pilots on the subject:

Sergei Kramarenko, credited with 13 kills in Korea to go with his 12 in the Great Patriotic War, said this:

"The Sabre was the most dangerous threat to my friends and I in Korean skies. Our MiG-15 and the F-86 belonged in the same class, similar types with similar performance. They differed only in that the MiG had an advantage in rate of climb at altitude, while the Sabre was superior in maneuvering, especially at low level."

Maj. General Georgy Lobov, who commanded the 303rd Guards' Regiment at Manpo, Korea:

"The MiG-15 in its main characteristics surpassed all similar enemy aircraft except the F-86. In comparison with the latter, the MiG had a better rate of climb and thrust to weight ratio, but was somewhat inferior in maneuverability and radius of action. Their maximum flight speeds, however, were roughly equal. The F-86 had a better fuselage and aerodynamic form. This fighter gained speed in a dive faster than ours and had a lesser 'sink' rate than the MiG-15 when recovering from a dive.

Eow_TK
12-13-2009, 02:26 PM
Thanks very much for the information. Ever since I first saw a Korean War air display at an airshow, this has always interested me.

With the mods, I noticed how the sabre seems to perform very bad against the mig for me. Its most likely how I fly it, so are there any tips for flying the F-86 against the Mig-15? I know there is only so much that can be done with the Il2 atmostphere, but I noticed that niether aircraft seems to do very well at its historical altitudes.

Jambock_Dolfo
12-13-2009, 02:39 PM
"Q: Compare the MiG-15 to the F-86 Sabre.

Blesse: Air-to-air fight was like a game. You had to know the rules. You had to know what you could do and what he could do. We had pretty good information on the MiG (...) "

http://www.acepilots.com/korea_blesse.html


Major General Frederick C. 'Boots' Blesse
Korean War Fighter Pilot Ace
Flew F-86 Sabre jets for USAF, downed 10 MiGs
Wrote "No Guts, No Glory," a fighter pilot manual


A nice read.


-dolfo

thefruitbat
12-13-2009, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by Jambock_Dolfo:
"Q: Compare the MiG-15 to the F-86 Sabre.

Blesse: Air-to-air fight was like a game. You had to know the rules. You had to know what you could do and what he could do. We had pretty good information on the MiG (...) "

http://www.acepilots.com/korea_blesse.html


Major General Frederick C. 'Boots' Blesse
Korean War Fighter Pilot Ace
Flew F-86 Sabre jets for USAF, downed 10 MiGs
Wrote "No Guts, No Glory," a fighter pilot manual


A nice read.


-dolfo

thanks for the link, nice read http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif