PDA

View Full Version : Final Summary on Walking



U-551 Kapitan
09-30-2004, 11:23 AM
I know a lot of people are angry about people talking about this, so I'll make it quick. Just a quick summary of the results on polls of the walking situation.

OK, Erich Hartmann's poll first:

For walking: 39 votes (72%)
Against walking: 15 votes (28%)

My poll:

For walking: 21 votes (53%)
Against walking: 13 votes (33%)
Unsure: 6 votes (15%)

So I think it's obvious that the majority want the walking feature enabled. Sucess, now the dev team need to put it in and it'll definately be the time to celebrate.

U-551 Kapitan
09-30-2004, 11:23 AM
I know a lot of people are angry about people talking about this, so I'll make it quick. Just a quick summary of the results on polls of the walking situation.

OK, Erich Hartmann's poll first:

For walking: 39 votes (72%)
Against walking: 15 votes (28%)

My poll:

For walking: 21 votes (53%)
Against walking: 13 votes (33%)
Unsure: 6 votes (15%)

So I think it's obvious that the majority want the walking feature enabled. Sucess, now the dev team need to put it in and it'll definately be the time to celebrate.

The Wolfpack
09-30-2004, 12:56 PM
Well I am sure a majority of people want working toilets in the sub as well, along with every single aircraft, ship, vehicle, etc in the timeframe, and working weapons too so you can shoot your crewmates or board other ships. But you have to consider development time and look at the previous games and how far this game has gone since SH2.

There has been no sub game which has even come close to matching SH3's upcoming featurelist. Requesting something as trivial as walking makes little sense, especially in a simulation (and also since there is no single simulator that has allowed walking around). You need to take it as it is, a game that simulates submarine warfare, because honestly...graphical eye-candy and "immersion" only lasts a few minutes. What we really need is purely realistic and good gameplay.

U-551 Kapitan
09-30-2004, 01:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Wolfpack:
and working weapons too so you can shoot your crewmates or board other ships. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Raises eyebrow]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Wolfpack:
But you have to consider development time and look at the previous games and how far this game has gone since SH2. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The development time is nothing if you do it right. You don't need any of these 'working guages' until you actually click on them. And the space inside a sub was very confined, leaving little moddelling to be done in comparision to other games. And if they use the tip where when you leave the conning tower for the bridge, the screen fades to black and out again, so the game doesn't need to load the outside graphics when your inside and vise versa. I agree this has gone a long way since SHII, but this is mainly in graphics, there have been a couple of tweaks with gameplay granted but nothing new is really here.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Wolfpack:
Requesting something as trivial as walking makes little sense, especially in a simulation (and also since there is no single simulator that has allowed walking around). You need to take it as it is, a game that simulates submarine warfare, because honestly...graphical eye-candy and "immersion" only lasts a few minutes. What we really need is purely realistic and good gameplay. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Waling is not 'trivial'. On both accounts of the polls, the walking feautre has won. (I'd do it a third time to get a decent average, but I'd start getting death threats). Also, you say "no simulator has done this before". It's time to start somewhere. Also, "a game that simulates submarine warfare". A game which simulates submarine warfare SHOULD have the walking feature, people actually walked on subs y'know. "Eye candy" it is not. I didn't say anythying about promoting the graphics did I? It's a simple gameplay feature. "Immersion", what's wrong with that?! Atmosphere never hurt anyone, and if you think about it, I doubt it would only last a few minutes. It would probably last out until the game gets old and forgotten (After SH27 comes out).

You've completely contradicted yourself unfortunately, pure realistic gameplay would include walking. If you want realism, you want to walk. Simple as that.

Monkeywho
09-30-2004, 02:13 PM
Concure with U-Boat Kaptin. Walking should be in the game.

Okay. . new course plotted! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Off to other topics.

Peace

Kapitanleutnant--Martes86--Mix
09-30-2004, 02:30 PM
I also want that implemented. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

AKA44
09-30-2004, 03:29 PM
The question of walking raises the question of running(for crash dive,with people falling like in das boot), or it's just u who is able to walk and not the AI crewmen ?
I think it's too much work for a eyes-candie.

Erich Hartmann
09-30-2004, 08:26 PM
U-551 Kapitan, I want to tell you that I am with you, I am a full suporter of that feature. In fact its one of the features that I want the most. Dont get discouraged by threats, itll be worth when you are walking on the game and everybody will addmit it.
And to The Wolfpack, you said something that I dont agree with. Walking is not trivial, since it will give you the perspective of being in cramped conditions, which are a main feature of U-boats.
Also AKA44, there is already an option for you to jump from station to station, obviously walking is for more pacific times, or normal times, if its implemented it would be more like an option, not that you wont be able to jump from station to station. Im sure the speed will be ok, so you dont have to "run", in an emergency situation. Dont worry about it. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Dont get discouraged U-551 Kapitan, im with you (if it helps).

hauitsme
09-30-2004, 09:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
On both accounts of the polls, the walking feautre has won. (I'd do it a third time to get a decent average, but I'd start getting death threats). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v325/hauitsme/noose.gif
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
The development time is nothing if you do it right <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v325/hauitsme/titanic.gif
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
it's obvious that the majority want the walking feature enabled. Sucess, now the dev team need to put it in <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v325/hauitsme/ghost.gif

CB..
10-01-2004, 05:52 AM
i'd say yes to the walking feature..for the simple reason that it gives you an unlimited variety in viewpoints within the sub...(be a real shame not to be able to explore that wonderfully modelled interior if for no other reason)
BUT i have read about the problems have-ing free movement within a moving object in a sim so;;
i would humbly suggest they consider using a system of fixed viewpoints within each compartment...not just one fixed viewpoint for each compartment but two or three .which you switch thru in same way as you switched thru the AA guns on the wintergarden in SH2...
this would more than double the atmosphere and immersion...as there's nothing more frustrating and "illusion shattering" than being rooted to the spot and only able to turn round like the beam on a light-house...never feels right at all..

U-551 Kapitan
10-01-2004, 09:47 AM
What sort of problems do you mean?

The movment of the sub should only be a gentle rocking movement, not enough to knock you into a wall (I think there should only be a general gentle rocking motion, even in stormy weather. The dev team can't do everything remember)

If you mean crewmen might get in the way then, this may sound **** but, make them ghosts and don't clip them so you just pass through them. The same goes for the edges of machinery that stck out in your path. Best I can come up with until I think it over. But really, it is no FPS and flaws are acceptable (remember community FREE http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif mods and patches can fix virtually anything.

To me, and Erich, this is the most important thing to be added to the game after the dynamic campaign. To most of the others, they're not fanatics like me and Erich, but still want to see the feature.
The worrying thing is, I've seen much more sucessful polls which have been for nothing (remember the good old days with lifeboats? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif)

lonewulf44
10-01-2004, 10:47 AM
I want walking too, but its something thats very much on the 'backburner' of things that are important. With the dynamic campaign being implemented, I'm satisifed and just want to play the game as soon as possilbe. Something like taking the standing position and then moving is just not worth the delay it would cause. Its a nice 'feature' but its just that ...a feature. Again, not saying that I wouldnt like a walking feature..just would like the Dev team to concentrate on getting more important things working 100% and the game shipped.


Long Live Prussia!

Gerd_Schopfel
10-01-2004, 12:51 PM
I have but one thing to say!

I do not care how long it takes, or what it will take: GET THE WALKING FEATURE IMPLEMENTED.
Go dev team gogogo!!!
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

sgr_wilson
10-01-2004, 03:32 PM
Perhaps if it can't be implemented into the game due to time/budget constraints it could be included in an add-on data disc. In the same way deck guns were added to the original "Aces of the Deep". I for one would be willing to pay for a data disc which expanded the game with extra features in more ways than simply adding extra missions.

CB..
10-01-2004, 04:56 PM
wow im on your side remember lol!

what i meant by problems was not in a realism sense walking thru crew members pipes etc being thrown around by the motion of the waves ..what i meant was that i've been told in a similar thread at subsim.com by one of the guys there who are up to scratch on this stuff that it's relatively dificult to actually program the ability for a player to move around when the object he is moving around in is moving aswell..so the game has to calculate both the movement of the player within the sub AND the movement of the sub within the game world...it's by no means impossible (been done lots of times i know!) but it's a pretty major job to do...(so im told) so i was angling for a compromise (big bad me) frankly to have the player stuck in one position in each compartment is a waste of space...may have well as stuck with 2d screens as far as i can tell...what a waste of all that stupendous interior modeling...anyone played Engima...they use a very basic (i know) 3d model for the interior with one fixed viewpoint that you pan round from...it's a very jaded experience...makes YOU feel like the Ghost!!!
very un-real feeling...which works against the imagination rather than with it..

BUT having a choice of fixed viewpoints is much easier to implement as SH2 has shown with it's AA gun viewpoints...(ie remove the AA gun models and you have a bridge/wintergarden that can be skipped round at will with 4 or 5 different viewpoints to choose from..great)

do the same in the control room at least in SH3 and you have gotten round the extra code needed to cope with the dynamic movements of the sub AND the player within the sub at the same time and can have variuos viewpoints
ie
behind the crew at the dive planes....
at the map table with the navigator..
by the secondary scope...
and so on...

this would for me anyway be a great and flexible choice..not as good as free movement but has plenty for the imagination to get to grips with and breaks that ghost like fly on the wall feling that comes with one solitary fixed viewpoint...whew....thats a relief.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

HeibgesU999
10-01-2004, 06:00 PM
Everything in the game is done except for the Dynamic Campaign. Walking will not be in. End of story.

CB..
10-01-2004, 06:24 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

Andrew OConnor
10-11-2004, 01:41 PM
One thing i have noticed with 1st person shooters and other stuff where you are walking around is you can posistion yourself in a little place behind pipes, say, and then not be ables to get out again, and then you end up doing a funny dance, without getting out. How about just clicking on a zone, and then a sort of autopilot takes over, so you dont have to navigate the maze, and then when you want to move around a compartment(?), you use a joystick or somthing.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

marcieb
10-11-2004, 03:18 PM
Jeez...get over it will you?! The dev's already said there won't be a walk around feature. In stead of wining about it, take a look at everything that IS in the game. Look at the graphics, the best thing ever seen in a subsim. Look at the dynamic campain, which we got as a result of the dev's listening to the community. If you can't live without a walk around, go build your own sim or buy your own sub (the brittish have them cheap at the moment, ask canada).

What I mean is: the Devs design and build a game, and if you like it you buy it, if not you don't. THEY are the ones building the game, not us. It's great that they listen to community input, but it's not like they are legally binded to do so.

king_cam
10-11-2004, 07:43 PM
guys i have to go with the walking i mean its not like something that will be forgoten about or put in just to please us... once they have it in it can go right in the middle of the box for the game

i.e. (game box)

"silent hunter iii

pic


includes advanced "walking" feature on subs."

it could be a big seller also we arnt asking for anything special (just new) all we want is to be able to walk around a LITTLE sub and i agree with the previous post about making crew members walk-throughable.

just think how cool to would be to walk around your control room inspection every gadge you go by (not by looking but by entering the station), then seeing everything is fine you make your way up to the coaning tower ect.

p.s. sorry if any of that didnt make sence eather logicly or gramaticly (or the spelling).

macker33
10-12-2004, 12:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Wolfpack:
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

that was very well put,i think being able to walk around would muff the game up,there would be too much having to do someting first before you could do anything.

bertgang
10-12-2004, 03:46 AM
Walking could be fun and immersive, I'm a walker in real life and, if dev team listen at you, I'll be in virtual life too.

I think, anyway, that such feature could be more a problem than a pleasure, unless done in a simplyfied way, as CB and others suggested.

U-551 Kapitan
10-12-2004, 10:53 AM
OK, one thing to remember is if it was done, the actual boat should not move. Perhaps a slight angle when you dive or surface but that should be it. There should be no rocking motion as it is difficult to detect anyway. The boat isn't moving when your inside the U-boat. Once you go up to the bridge, then a small pause would occur where the screen fades the black and back out again while the textures and the boat begins moving. Thats how I see it, a simple solution which would take no time to implement. The dev team CAN put this in fairly easily so they should put it in. They will be the ones who benefit.
To prevent the occurance of getting stuck behind pipes, all that is needed is a simple invisible wall which bars the way. You can't get trapped then. Simple solution for a simple problem.
I suggest we have both options. The old traditional way of zapping to differnt stations and this newer realistic way of walking (or running when pressing a certain button).

hauitsme
10-12-2004, 09:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>..the actual boat should not move.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The boat isn't moving when your inside the U-boat. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><span class="ev_code_RED">Are you nuts?</span>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>..would take no time to implement.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The dev team CAN put this in fairly easily so they should put it in. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you paying them? Since you 'know' so much about how to program(it's 'easy'), why don't you do it?


Come on, it's easy and will take no time!

BoneDaddy1844
10-12-2004, 10:53 PM
I believe several people here have already confirmed the devs are not putting this feature in the game.

Even so, I've yet to see a valid argument to convince me (or the devs for that matter) that such a feature would enhance the gameplay beyond "it would be cool if they did this" status. Unfortunately, this type of feature does have an impact on performance, as others here have noted.

Does anyone remember Micropose's B-17 Flying Fortress II from 2000? It had fully 3-D bombers that you could move around in, but in the case of that game, each station had a purpose, so it made sense to model the entire bomber. But that level of detail came with a price. The performance hit was so great, that you could only have a maximum of 12 bombers in the air at one time. As a consequence, frame rates sucked, even on powerful computers. So much for the historic thousand-plane bombing missions, and so much for the realism factor as well.

Some people who support this walking feature say that this is part of a hardcore simulation that owes itself to teaching us what it was like to be on a sub. That SHIII is not meant to be played to have fun, but to be a real experience. But, I see those same people suggesting "crewman that you can walk through" so you don't bump into them? How is that realistic, then? Or does realism only apply when it matters to them? Better still, I see other supporters of the walking feature here saying just how "fun" and "cool" it would be to have this feature. So what is it? Fun to play, or a lesson in history? Couldn't it be a little of both? Or is it just how people approach the game? For those who want the highlest level of cramped and uncomfortable immersion into realism, you're going to need more than a walk-around feature viewed on a flat computer monitor. Try sleeping in your closet tonight.

There's no denying that being able to crawl through the entire sub would be a blast. But at what cost? Look at how many great things they are implementing in this game already. Don't we owe it to the devs to give them a bit of credit for knowing how much than can and cannot do to make this game as enjoyable an experience as possible? And they've decided not to implement it. Let's move on to the other great things this game will have.

rlbroke
10-21-2004, 03:02 PM
I am a newbie here and except for an attempt at being funny on another post, this is my only contribution to this board. I Wanted to throw in my thoughts real quick. I found the link to SHIII by accident while looking at other games. I have played other sub sims (SHII - or whatever the previous WWII one was called) and Janes 688.

When I first heard they were making SHIII I thought...yawn...hasn't this been done? Granted its improved, but games can always be re-made with better and better resolution but at some point this 'eye candy' doesnt really affect the game. BUT when I saw the pics and movies showing you getting to move around in a sub (even just bouncing from hot spot to hot spot) I was hooked. Now I visit these boards frequently and this is likely to be one of my most anticipated games for next year.

I believe that the ability to 'move' around in the sub is the single biggest enhancement for those of us that do not (as a rule) follow submarine simulations. For you folks that can quote air pressure and thermal layers, this game may have lots of new stuff...But for the rest of us (me), this is a very small addition. All the regulars to this board would buy these improvements and love it.

I personally believe that the difference between this being just another sub-sim game and an absolute block buster is the ability to experience the inside of a WWII submarine. That said, I do not believe that a free form walk around the sub is necessary, but if virtually all areas of the sub are represented with a 360 degree view (and perhaps as someone else mentioned, there being more than 1 vantage point per area) this game will appeal to many folks who would not necessarily purchase 'version next' of the WWII sub-sim.

Leif...
10-22-2004, 03:13 AM
Walking freely inside ads a tremendous amount of feeling of being there. Compare with any other first person shooter, would they be as good if you where locked to certain viewpoints? Obviously not.

Also, as some might already know, I€ve been working on a u-boat simulator myself for quite a while now (spare time only so progress are really slow) and one of the features is walking around inside the sub. So I can speak from experience when I say that it DOES add a lot, even though the interior still is kind of crude it does convey the feeling of being inside u-boat quite well.

In my opinion you should not be able to walk through crewmembers, instead they should step aside or press against a wall as soon as you get close enough.

I guess though that the walking feature will be one of the big selling points for SHIV.


Leif€¦

BoneDaddy1844
10-24-2004, 11:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Leif...:
Walking freely inside ads a tremendous amount of feeling of being there. Compare with any other first person shooter, would they be as good if you where locked to certain viewpoints? Obviously not.

Also, as some might already know, I€ve been working on a u-boat simulator myself for quite a while now (spare time only so progress are really slow) and one of the features is walking around inside the sub. So I can speak from experience when I say that it DOES add a lot, even though the interior still is kind of crude it does convey the feeling of being inside u-boat quite well.

In my opinion you should not be able to walk through crewmembers, instead they should step aside or press against a wall as soon as you get close enough.

I guess though that the walking feature will be one of the big selling points for SHIV.


Leif€¦ <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just a quick reminder for the newly arrived: SHIII is not a first person shooter, nor should the mistake be made of comparing it to that game genre. SHIII is a simulation.

That being said, another reminder: the devs are not implementing the ability to walk around the entire sub in SHIII. It's a dead issue.

However, this does not mean that a mod team couldn't create such a feature sometime after the game is finally released. If they could pull it off without taking a significant performance hit, it will be interesting to see...

We also need to be wary of making such sweeping generalizations such as this one from 'rlbroke': "All the regulars to this board would buy these improvements and love it."

Really? How can you be so sure? Have we done another poll to determine this?

Since the walk-around feature will not be implemented in SHIII, perhaps we need to clarify what makes this such a hot issue, even though its still not going to make it into the game. I suggest that what we have is a contingent of non-simmers, who for the first time or perhaps the first time in a long while, have seen or heard of SHIII recently and have been intrigued by the notably 3-D world it contains. This may seem like familiar ground for the likes of the FPS crowd, who for once, may be looking outside their genre to something a little different: a sub simulation perhaps? But to find out that such a promising game that offers a welcome and inviting 3-D world that they could feel comfortable and familiar playing in, won't allow a fully 3-D modeled submarine to explore just seems like a complete letdown. Then the frustration sets in. "But why not?" they cry!

Many reasons and opinions have been given for this. Whatever the real reason the devs decided not to put a walk-around feature in the game may never be fully known. Perhaps the devs have determined that there should be more emphasis on the simulation part of the game(i.e. the historical accuracy of submarine warfare operations) than on the ability to inspect the boat from stem to stern in a FPS fashion. Perhaps the devs realized that players may be far too engaged with managing crew, stalking ships undetected, plotting firing solutions, evading depth charge-firing destroyers, keeping the boat from hitting bottom, and trying to get back to port alive than to have the time to go strolling about their boat.

Whatever the real reasons may be, it should be noted that the term simulation doesn't necessarily refer to a world with an exploring capability such as one might find in Doom 3, where it was necessary to check every corner and crevice in the game. This is where we might be getting a lot of confusion from the FPS crowd. There's no doubt that SHII has a lot of FPS-type perspectives in it, but this game is first and foremost a simulation of submarine warfare. A simulation strives to recreate a particular process down to the exacting detail. And those details often include the mundane and the boring, things that you CANNOT always see with your eyes. For instance: the accuracy of a torpedo sailing through the water, taking in consideration the weight, speed, currents, water pressure and all the other calculations it would take to 'simulate' this item in a virtual world. Does it deliver an appropriate explosion in the game as it would have in real life? Or does this torpedo make a ridiculous mockery of the real thing? Will convoys move realistically when at sea? Will escorts make attack runs as they did in real life? Will ship commanders employ proper tactics as they did back then? These are but a few of the things considered when crafting a simulation. Perhaps the devs felts things such as these took priority in the making of SHIII. If that's the case, then I'm glad they did.