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gibson2000
11-03-2004, 12:01 AM
Hi allhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I've heard that there won't be enemy subs in the game, but I wonder if, in reality, a sub vs sub fight has ever happened? Should be possible to go close thanks to the hydrophone, and then see the sub with the periscope under water, and set the torpedo to actual depth of the sub (if not too deep).

gibson2000
11-03-2004, 12:01 AM
Hi allhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I've heard that there won't be enemy subs in the game, but I wonder if, in reality, a sub vs sub fight has ever happened? Should be possible to go close thanks to the hydrophone, and then see the sub with the periscope under water, and set the torpedo to actual depth of the sub (if not too deep).

bertgang
11-03-2004, 02:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gibson2000:
I wonder if, in reality, a sub vs sub fight has ever happened? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure for mediterranean.

An engagement between an u-boat and a dutch sub, at least one italian sub sunk by a british one.

As I remember, little use of sound detection here; boats were in sight.

Teddy Bar
11-03-2004, 04:11 AM
21 German u-boats were sunk by allied submarines.

The Dev Team have said that this will not be possible in SHIII.

1939 1 sunk
1940 1 sunk
1941 2 sunk
1942 2 sunk
1943 5 sunk
1944 7 sunk
1945 3 sunk

jeroen-79
11-03-2004, 04:52 AM
Exactly how were these sunk?

Where were the boats sunk?
Were both boats submerged?
Were they sunk by torpedoes or guns?
Were the crews experienced?

I dont'know if the boats of these days were capable of submerged hunter-killer combat like modern subs but I don't think the periscope was of much use underwater.
If you can see your opponent with the scope firecontrol would be easy though.

Evading shots could be easy.
If you heard the launch then all you would need to do is tun or change depth hard.
The torpedoes were unguided and would run in a straight line.

Maybe the hunter subs would wait submerged on a U-boat route and torpedo the surfaced U-boat by surprise.

bertgang
11-03-2004, 05:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jeroen-79:
Maybe the hunter subs would wait submerged on a U-boat route and torpedo the surfaced U-boat by surprise. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

An italian sub was lost that way.

Mitarbeiter
11-03-2004, 06:47 AM
I believe U-boats sunk some Allied submarines too.

So it's a bit of a shame they haven't made it into the game. However, we could probably mod them in in some format.

Jose.MaC
11-03-2004, 07:00 AM
‚¬®Since we'll have other u-boats, we have the AI to mod other subs. I don't see any problem on that, except they'll be really bad shooting at us while half submerged.

Subs were too easy to find in SHII.

gibson2000
11-03-2004, 08:25 AM
I was thinking about that (submerged attack) because it is possible in SHII to see with the scope underwatter (not far though , but enough to sink boats), so maybe it was possible in reality, perhaps hinding in the engines sound behind the hunted sub.


By the way do you think underwatter visibility is better in SHIII from the screens? I think it should be better than in SHII, at least when it's sunny and the water isn't to deep.

bertgang
11-03-2004, 08:43 AM
Periscope wiew when underwater?

Maybe possible, but only when the range is shorter than your stern, I suppose.

Try by diving with mask and snorkel, for reference.

HeibgesU999
11-03-2004, 11:39 AM
The Pampanito sight has a Patrol Report from WWII where the Pampanito was attacked by a submerged IJN sub while patrolling on the surface.

As skies cleared and the seas turned glassy, Pampanito approached the Bungo-Suido, the straits between the large Japanese islands of Kyushu and Shikoku. At 0350 hours on the morning of June 23 the Officer of the Deck, the Navigator, and one lookout sighted a torpedo wake crossing Pampanito's bow. Left full rudder was ordered at flank speed to parallel the track of the oncoming torpedo. Another torpedo wake was sighted proceeding up the starboard side. ( Steam turbine driven torpedoes left a visible wake of exhaust gasses.) Summers states in his patrol report:

"The night was clear and I'm sure if there had been a submarine on the surface we could have seen it. As it turned out, I feel certain that a submerged enemy submarine had fired at us and his misses were due merely to the fact that we were zig-zagging, for which I am now very thankful."
Pampanito submerged and attempted to pick up the sound of the attacker's screws. Nothing could be heard. At 2300 hours Summers received orders to remain in the area until the night of June 27 to intercept the remnants of a crippled enemy task force returning from the Battle of the Philippine Sea. Whale (SS-239), Grouper (SS-214), and Batfish (SS-310) were also patrolling this area, but no contacts were made. During this time Pampanito was able to detect enemy radar from shore that revealed her position, and she submerged to keep her position unknown. Several potential targets were sighted over the next few days, including a destroyer and a nine-ship convoy, but the need to dodge patrol craft combined with the pull of strong easterly currents made attack positions too difficult to set up and maintain. Matters were further complicated when both periscopes began fogging, and there was no nitrogen gas left aboard to dry them out.

E.Thang
11-04-2004, 08:14 PM
SS298 USS Lionfish, is credited with sinking a Japenese sub in the south pacific in July of 44, and is thought to have sunk another one. (It fired apon, and heard breaking up noises, but was never credited) There were a few other American boats that sank Jap I-boats during the war, but I would have to look them up for you. (These were surface attacks, the technology for underwater attacks was not available at the time, for example, I don't think American torpedoes were capable of running deeper than 35 feet or so during WWII, though, once again, I'd have to check my references to verify that)

Besides a German U-boat (U-571) sank an American Balao Class sub during WWII,,,didn't you see the movie??? (Joking)

Also the British sub engaged and sank an Argentine sub during the battle of the Faukland Islands. (I think the Argentine sub was an old Gato class, bought from the US...but I'm not sure)

badhat17
11-05-2004, 03:00 AM
As far as I know the only sub to sink another sub while both were submerged was HMS Venturer .

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> "Venturer" distinguished herself by sinking two German Submarines."U771" was sunk on the 11th November 1944. "U864" was sunk on the 9th February 1945 in a unique action as both boats were submerged. "U864" was detected by "Venturer's" ASDIC used in passive mode so that there could be no tell "ping".

"Venturer's" Commanding Officer Lt. J.S. Launders was also able to obtain good sightings on the U Boats periscopes due to what Launders described as "the most shameful periscope drill on the U Boats part". From information provided by the ASDIC and Launders sightings, Launders concluded he was broad on U 864's starboard bow.
For the next hour he used the ASDIC to determine a plot of "U864's" course and when finally certain of direction and speed fired four MK VIII** torpedoes in a "hosepipe" salvo. The range was 3,000 yards and "U864" took one torpedo and sank. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

see link at - http://uboat.net/boats/u864.htm

The Argentine submarine lost in the Falklands was subjected to air attack and infact was not technicaly sunk as it made it back to harbour , after inspection by the British it was scuttled in Grytviken South georgia .

Redwine
11-06-2004, 05:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by E.Thang:

Also the British sub engaged and sank an Argentine sub during the battle of the Faukland Islands. (I think the Argentine sub was an old Gato class, bought from the US...but I'm not sure) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Submarine was the ARA Santa Fe, ex USS CatFish an old Guppy Class, and was not sank.......it survive a strong attack and arrive to port, was sclutted 3 years later of the Malvinas Battle.


The following words are based on the words of the ARA Santa Fe Captain, Cpt. Bicain.


The submarine was in bad conditions at start up the Malvinas Battle, batteries do not accept full charge and flooding pumps do not woks beyond periscope depth........

The ARA Santa Fe was asigned to bring 20 Marine Infantrymen with some antitank missiles to the Georgias Island.

After arrive to Georgias, and land the Maines and ammo, the sub start up the back home.

After some time, and sailing in very shallow waters the sub was detected and engaged by a secuence of 5 english helicopters

( 1 Westland Wessex Type fromn the HMS Antrim and 2 Westland Wessex Type from HMS Endurance, 1 Westland Linnx Type from the HMS Brilliant, and 1 Westland Wasp from HMS Plymuth) armed with Depth charges, MK-46 Torpedoes, and AntiShip Missiles AS-12

http://lapin.hi-edu.ru/sos/a/argentina/boats/santa_fe.htm

http://www.btinternet.com/~a.c.walton/navy/faa/wessex.html

http://www.btinternet.com/~a.c.walton/navy/faa/lynx.html

The first attack was with depth charges and produce many damages to the sub, ship remains with no comunication and with no electic energy.

Situation was very bad because they was at very shallow waters.........

In the next attacks the Linx hello launchs his 2 homming torpedoes against the ARA Santa Fe, but was unsuccessful, may be due to the shallow depth waters

With no more depth charges and no more torps, the hellos back home, but the next 3 hellos from HMS Plymuth and Edurance was ready to attack the sub with Anti Ship Missiles.................

An anti-air group was build, to repulse the Hellos attack with assault rifles type FN (Fabrique Nationale, Belgium) FAL 7.62 Nato caliber and Garant.

The crew on guard at the conning tower, Felman y Muraciole, plus another crew from inside the sub, Ghiglione, Mareco, Macias, Silva y Bustamante pick up assault rifles and start up to repulse the hellos attack with assault rifle fire.............

Another crew from inside the sub, made a human chain, and reload the rifles inside the sub and rise up them to the conning tower in a continus (neverending chain) movement...........

In some moment an anti ship missile impact the conning tower, but it do not explodes........... the missile pass through the conning tower with no explosion, but wound severely the crew Macias.........

Storytells of crew Felman was dramatics, he tells Macias attenpt to stay stand-up and can not, and only few seconds later he takes know he had lossed one leg................

Hellos with no more advanced weapons and only with onboard small weapons was finally successful repulsed...........

Submarine can return to Grytviken port successful, but with important flooding level.

On port, the depth under keel was very small, and the flood made the sub rest with the keel on the sea floor, but with the conning tower completelly out of the water, and small flooding inside due to damage in ballast tanks.

After Englands capture of the Grytviken Port, the England Comander at the islands, tells the Santa Fe Captain, the hydrogen gases inside the sub can generate an explosion and detonate all the torps and explosives inside, and according the Genever Convention it was his responsability............

An opertion to move the sub was mounted, and the Santa Fe Captain talk with his crew to sabotage this operation and sink the sub to blocade the Grytviken Port, openning some flooding valves.

Some Englands and some Argentine crew was asigned to this operation.................

In the operation sub become lateral unbalenced, and in a confuse situation a submarine crew Engineer Felix Artuso, attempt to reach some valves and was killed into the sub by an English Marine guard............ but finally the sub sinks into the port.

3 years later after the end of the Malvinas Battle, in 1985, Englands perform a rescue operation to clear the Grytviken Port, operation was called "Operation Hokehampton" and its duration was 120 days, and was performed by the rescue ship RMAS Gooseander and the Comercial Tow Salvageman, finally the sub was recover and put on surface, the Sante Fe (ex USS Cat Fish) was towed to the port and repaired to be towed away, 20 feb 1985 the sub was towed away and sunked.

This is an unknow history about courage and bravery of sea men, from both sides, crew of the sub and the hellos........(i would not to stay in those plastic eggs in front of a rabid crew defending their ship)

You can read the original story tell from the captain at

www.elsnorkel.com (http://www.elsnorkel.com)

you must to register to read the "Articles", you need to use a web traslator, site is in spanish............

There are many more histories from this old Guppy sub, and from the ARA San Luis, and their attack on England Fleet, and how it was hunt during more than 20/25 hours, and evade the fleet torps using countermeasures and resting on sea floor, how own torps fails, do not leve the tube or cut the wire........and from the ARA Salta (unable for combat due to high noise in propeller axis), wich perform some torpedo tests due to the malfunction of them in the ARA San Luis, and how one torp remains in the tube and activated and the job to push out it................

Very interesting because, histories are telled by the crew..................

Sorry my bad english...........


PD :

Here a Russian page with many pictures of the ARA Santa Fe, at sea, at Gritviken Port, and in the sclutted operation.......

http://www.almanacwhf.ru/?no=6&art=5

Jose.MaC
11-06-2004, 06:22 AM
I think argentinian crew was far more exposed than helo's crews. After all, a helo is designed to shot while flying, while a sub is a poor platform for any gun!

Interesting how a WWII vintage sub was able to survive combat against british fleet. Malvina's battle proved how much deppends on the people maning the machines, not just in the technology.

badhat17
11-06-2004, 10:07 AM
Thanks for those links Redwine , I have been looking for more information on the part played by the ARA subs during the conflict , now I just need to learn spanish http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Philipscdrw
11-06-2004, 01:26 PM
Or learn where babel.altavista.com is!

Thanks for that Redwine. Very informative reading.

badhat17
11-06-2004, 01:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Philipscdrw:
Or learn where babel.altavista.com is!

Thanks for that Redwine. Very informative reading. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have you seen how Spanish to English comes out ?

Jose.MaC
11-06-2004, 02:54 PM
Is an automatic translator, the best reason to understand why is important to learn idioms! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Redwine
11-06-2004, 04:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by badhat17:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Philipscdrw:
Or learn where babel.altavista.com is!

Thanks for that Redwine. Very informative reading. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have you seen how Spanish to English comes out ? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure..... better than my spelling http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Yes, agree with that, traslators some times made a non perfect spelling traslation, but if the traslation is related to a topic you know good, as in this situation, you can fix the errors........

The main problem in the www.elesnorkel.com (http://www.elesnorkel.com) storytells, is they are in argentinian language not in spanish, (we do not speaks spanish)because they are direct tells of the crew.........

But if you know about the topic you can fix those little error, I use too much web traslators to traslate from german, rusian........ and works fine.

You have there lot of articles (Articulos link) and then go to Todos Los Articulos (All Articles) with many more histories about our subs in the Battle of Malvinas.

Here you have a traslator you can use........

http://webtranslation.paralink.com/urlmode.asp

badhat17
11-07-2004, 01:42 AM
Well I have gone through several of the articles now , interesting to see the other perspective for sure . If my translator was close then am I to understand that the first trial of a warshot torpedo was undertaken by the ARA Salta in June 1982 , seems incredible to me that no live fire tests had been carried out before then.

Redwine
11-07-2004, 06:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by badhat17:
Well I have gone through several of the articles now , interesting to see the other perspective for sure . If my translator was close then am I to understand that the first trial of a warshot torpedo was undertaken by the ARA Salta in June 1982 , seems incredible to me that no live fire tests had been carried out before then. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Believe it or not........ http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Malvinas battle was a contrast between the courage, valor, bravery, genius and inventive of the combat-line men, and the stupidity, incompetence, useless, fruitless and low level capacity of the Military Forces "managers", who remains far away of the battle land........

The fact was all torpedoes shooting by the ARA San Luis do not works prperly........

In that moment we had 3 operative sub, 2 IKL 209 and one Guppy.......

One of the IKL 209 was the ARA Salta, wich was not operative for war due to a high noise in proppeller axis..........

This lets only 2 subs operative for war, the Gupppy Santa Fe and the IKL-209 San Luis, and the Guppy was more near to be sclutted than ready for war...........

The only one with war capacity was the ARA San Luis...........

The ARA San Luis perform some "successful" attack against the England Fleet, successful because he can penetrate England defenses, and obtain a firing solution and shoot........( we must to consider the Royal Navy was the antisubmarine "arm" of the "NATO" and be well prepared to repulse subs) ........but all torpedoes works bad, the fist two shooted stps their engines after few seconds of run, many other cut the wire...........

The ARA Salta, unable for war, was assigned to test torps, during the test he (she) has the same problems and baddest even..........

in the tests, two torps do not abandom the tube, and remain activated inside the tube, both torps engines runs into the tube by about 2 minutes and stops, and remains inside the tube, the second launch attempt was at 13:00 hs,if i do not remember bad they must to apply a procedure wich put the sub with a high inclination to slipper the torps outside the tube............with no success, and at 20:28 aproximately (after 7 1/2 hours), one torp suddently start up its engine inside the tube, the torp engine runs up to 21:15 without abandom the tube........and then stops, sub must to back port to unload the failed torps inside the tubes........

The torpedoes mechanism wich fails in the ARA San Luis put it under high risk, in one situation was detected and prosecuted and hunt by more than one day........... he was attacked by depth charges and homming torps, but he was able to evade the Englands prey on him using countermeasures and resting on sea floor.......some times in a very dramatic maner, crew tells one time he goes quickly to the bottom to evade a homming torp, but the sub has flotability and bump on the sea floor many times and not rest on it, and they was enforced to food tanks to stops the bumps on the floor.....

Only one torp of the ARA San Luis works normally, it was shooted against a submarine contact, and an impact and explosion was detected at sonar..........

No confirmation of target hit.........but the torp hits some thing.

This produce years of speculations due to the fact of Official England Information do not recognize any torp impact........ but a strange success happens with a England sub, Type Obreron, wich come back home without "nose", its bow was completely damaged.........

Some ones saids it was the only torp wich works fine, England version is this sub suffered a "run agrond incident"........... and many people saids this must to be true due to the fact it is imposible for the Obreron Class to survive a torp impact............another saids, the run aground was to evade the torp........

Imposible to know, Royal Navy Archives are closed and under secret for lot of years more........

As i said before, that battle was a contrast between the good job of combat line men and the stupid and fruitless military managers, ouw men was to made the job without the tools they needs......

Our weapons systems was not ready for war, some examples........

Our land Cannon guns (Otomelara if i not remember bad)has a shooting range some Km lower than England cannons, they prey on us with artillery fire "out" of our cannon shooting range, our troops was as ducks in a lagoon.....
The only you need is to go to a library, take a "Jannes" and check the other side cannon shooting range ........... my kid can do that.

The only one weapon on our subs was torps and torps was not tested, and any of them works fine.

We had 3 subs and two of they was not able to combat........

Our pilot must to attack a modern combat fleet with "museum" planes as Dougles A-4, and training old planes as Aermacchi..........

Any of our planes has any kind of "Threat Alert", our pilot has not indication is they was iluminated by a radar, if they was locked-on by a radar, or for an inminent incoming missile.........

Baddest even, they has not any kind of countermeasures, our planes has not Chaff or Flares........only the Mirage and Dagger has radar........ and they was not prepared for Air-to- Air combat, they was equiped with the fruitless Matra missiles..........

Teh only one antiship missile we had was the Exocet, and was very low quantity..... there is an courious fact, in the islands, with no support a set of technicians had mounted an exocet over a "truck trailer" and connect it to a radar station, and shoot it with succesful......... we call it "sofisticated' launching system, "Istallation de tiro berreta" , traslated to our local language it is some thing as "Bad quality/Waste Shooting Plataform" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Not for joke, we call it Waste Shooting Plataform, but it was successful, was used against the England Fleet and it hits successful the HMS Glamoran.

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/7252/itb.html

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Barracks/4333/hist003.htm

Disregarding Exocets, our planes was sended to war with "free fall" bombs againsta a modern fleet with strong anti air defenses......... crazy but real, attack a modern fleet with anti-air missiles with free fall boms !!
They was enforced to attack at very low altitude, here two museum A-4 attacking at low altitude with free fall bombs a very low probability to survive action........

http://www.hmscoventry.co.uk/25thmay.html

Most of free fall bombs launched by the Air force do not explodes......... due to a "pistol" calibration problem, bombs launched by navy works better........bu there was not too much comunication between forces, they 'hates' between them.........

Many free fall bombs launched pass through the frigates and do not explodes, dive in the sea and explodes after few seconds...........

An officer of the Navy tells me an history, i do not know if it is true or not........ he tells Air force has the pistol regulated at "5' thinking it was 5 miliseconds, and really they was adjusting 5 seconds...........

http://www.btinternet.com/~broadsword82/gallery/damage/damage1.jpg

http://www.btinternet.com/~broadsword82/gallery/damage/damage2.jpg

http://www.btinternet.com/~broadsword82/

Land tropps was masively composed by young boys, incoming from the "Enforced Military Service", they enter the Army in March and was send to war at April, they was 18 years old and prior to march they never had seen a rifle........

The ausence of friendship between our military forces, Army, Navy, Air Force i well know, i hear many time a history wich tells, when the air Force take control odf the airport at the islands, the navy threats the air force to attack it because to take control of the airport was his "honour" of the navy not the Air Force !, attacking between them !!

During years i think it was a joke.........

But recently, i read comments in forums about a recent release book, where this fact is commented, it is a boook with the memories of a recently former, retired air force officer, who was under pressure for not release this book during years, now he goes to retire (former) and release the book............i read in some forums this incredible fact is commented in the book, i can not found the book, has not a massive print, no support for it...........

Book is called "No Apagues la Luz cuando te vayas", some thing as "Do Not Switch-off the Light when You Go-out"..........

I can stay here one week more writting about this topic.........



Now......... yo still believing some thing can be incredible ? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

Well, about the no test of the torps before the war........ recently information shows another thing, the high command knows the fails, he has information from one or 2 years before, the torps has severe fails, and even with this information they send the crew to attack the England Fleet, the Antisubmarine Section/Arm of the NATO............ they send the crew to sure dead............they was a pack of "M...F..."

You can read this at www.elsnorkel.com (http://www.elsnorkel.com)

Here another time the contrast i mentioned before.......between the courage and bravery of the combat line sea men, air men, and lad troops, and the cowardy and fruitless of the "M.... F....." of the high commands of the military forces........


But we are not the only one forces with "domestic" problems, a friend who reads a book, i do not remember the name, but writed by a england officer, tells there was some kind of "no friendship" between the two Harrier goups send with the England Task Force, one group knows well hoew to manage the Harrier radar and not teach the another group about it.........

All homes has domestic affairs http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Best Regards, Red.

Jose.MaC
11-07-2004, 10:50 AM
This year, there were hold some NATO maneouvers in north europe -Finland, I believe-, wich involved a naval attack. Ground forces had gunnery, missiles... and a new german submarine to counterattack the navy. After the second day, was clear the sub was far too powerful and eficient to allow fleet attack, so had to be put out of the maneouvers. A sigle sub was able to counter the attack of the best units of NATO's antisub branch!

Btw, seems that diesel subs are far more silent than nuclear subs -doesn't have a noisy nuclear generator!

Curiously, many voices say that subs begin to be outdated. Hard to believe, being those ships so succesful.