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XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 11:45 AM
On September 6, 1939, due to the fact that British fighter planes were not fitted with IFF equipment (Identification Friend or Foe) at this time of the war, a ground radar operator believing he was coordinating an attack on enemy machines ordered RAF Spitfires from No.74 Squadron to shoot down two Hurricanes of No. 56 Squadron by mistake.

At about the same time, ground anti-aircraft fire brought down a Blenheim of No.64 Squadron. One pilot was killed. There were no German aircraft in the area at the time. This was the first time that Spitfires had fired their guns in anger.

The Spitfire pilots were subsequently exonerated from any blame at a court martial and from then on the highest priority was given to the production of Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) equipment.

During the period 1939 to 1942, twenty Blenheim fighter-bombers were shot down through mis-identification by RAF pilots and anti-aircraft fire (Seven were shot down by Hurricanes).

This resulted in the deaths of thirty-two aircrew with seven others injured. Nineteen other aircraft were damaged by being fired upon by mistake.
--------------------------------------------------------

I would hate to be the guy who shot down a friendly a/c...that would be hard to live with. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

How the heck did those Hurricanes shoot down seven Blenheims? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

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Message Edited on 06/21/0304:51AM by TaZ_Attack

XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 11:45 AM
On September 6, 1939, due to the fact that British fighter planes were not fitted with IFF equipment (Identification Friend or Foe) at this time of the war, a ground radar operator believing he was coordinating an attack on enemy machines ordered RAF Spitfires from No.74 Squadron to shoot down two Hurricanes of No. 56 Squadron by mistake.

At about the same time, ground anti-aircraft fire brought down a Blenheim of No.64 Squadron. One pilot was killed. There were no German aircraft in the area at the time. This was the first time that Spitfires had fired their guns in anger.

The Spitfire pilots were subsequently exonerated from any blame at a court martial and from then on the highest priority was given to the production of Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) equipment.

During the period 1939 to 1942, twenty Blenheim fighter-bombers were shot down through mis-identification by RAF pilots and anti-aircraft fire (Seven were shot down by Hurricanes).

This resulted in the deaths of thirty-two aircrew with seven others injured. Nineteen other aircraft were damaged by being fired upon by mistake.
--------------------------------------------------------

I would hate to be the guy who shot down a friendly a/c...that would be hard to live with. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

How the heck did those Hurricanes shoot down seven Blenheims? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

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Message Edited on 06/21/0304:51AM by TaZ_Attack

XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 11:55 AM
Interesting history...

I think thats modelled well in FB. Its damn hard to id the enemy until you are right on them, and sometimes you only have micro seconds to decide or miss your shot opportunity..

Even today (Iraq etc.) with all the electronic goodies, we still shoot ourselves with alarming frequency.. War is chaos. Even with the best equipment and training, its gonna happen. What was that big German raid where practically the whole thing was shot down by their own AAA?

I like how one soldier put it (roughly quoted) - on the battlefield, there is no friendly fire.

The one that pops to mind is in desert storm where an American M1 tank crew hit a British armoured vechicle...

<img src=http://home.insightbb.com/%7Edspinnett/NonSpeed/SpeedToys.jpg </img>
http://hometown.aol.com/spinnetti/

XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 12:01 PM
Sad story

BTW how did that IFF equipment work?

XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 12:05 PM
wasn't there some saying during WW2?

When the Germans shoot the Allies duck, when the British shoot the Germans duck, when an American shoots everyone ducks. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://www.just-pooh.com/images/eten.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 12:10 PM
AAA wasn‚¬īt exactly accurate so it must have been a thrill intercepting bombers when everything cracks&zaps around you...

S!

M0NS



"Blow up the outside world"

http://www.flugwerk.de/images/01k.jpg
My garage!

XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 12:49 PM
Spinnetti wrote:

- Even today (Iraq etc.) with all the electronic
- goodies, we still shoot ourselves with alarming
- frequency



'We' who r u calling we, r u American? you must be by the way you say 'we still shoot ourselves' yes Americans do seem to shoot up their own side and our 'British' blokes far too often. The British suffered something like 37 casualties in the last Gulf conflict, of which i think about 10 - 14 died in a mid air collision between a pair of seaking helicopters, a handfull fell to enemy fire, and the remaining 20 (ish) got taken out by Trigger Happy Yanks. So yet again our "ally" took more lives than the enemy. ( you cannot quote my figures they are purely form memory)

God only knows what that crazy commander was doing with the Patriot battery that took down one of our Tornadoes, considering that the Iraqi defence did not use a single aircraft throughout the entirety of the conflict what made the fool think a Tornado was enemy.

In my opinion the only troops that should fight alongside Americans on ANY front are Americans.

XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 01:40 PM
Classicaero wrote:
-
- Spinnetti wrote:
-
-- Even today (Iraq etc.) with all the electronic
-- goodies, we still shoot ourselves with alarming
-- frequency
-
-
-
-
-
- 'We' who r u calling we, r u American? you must be
- by the way you say 'we still shoot ourselves' yes
- Americans do seem to shoot up their own side and our
- 'British' blokes far too often. The British suffered
- something like 37 casualties in the last Gulf
- conflict, of which i think about 10 - 14 died in a
- mid air collision between a pair of seaking
- helicopters, a handfull fell to enemy fire, and the
- remaining 20 (ish) got taken out by Trigger Happy
- Yanks. So yet again our "ally" took more lives than
- the enemy. ( you cannot quote my figures they are
- purely form memory)
-
- God only knows what that crazy commander was doing
- with the Patriot battery that took down one of our
- Tornadoes, considering that the Iraqi defence did
- not use a single aircraft throughout the entirety of
- the conflict what made the fool think a Tornado was
- enemy.
-
- In my opinion the only troops that should fight
- alongside Americans on ANY front are Americans.
-
-

I'd be careful about this Class, there were a couple of casualties when one Challenger fired on another.

NewS.



Founder member (currently the only member!) of the Unofficial Hurricane Fan Club.

fluke39
06-13-2003, 03:48 PM
to steer this thread gently back to it's original, slightly less combustable subject.....
many english (and allied) and german planes were commonly confused with each other especially during the earlier days of the War e.g

Blenheim & Beaufighter were often confused with the Ju88
Fw190 was confused with Thunderbolt and (Believe or not) Typhoons/tempests
not so commonly i think 109's and spitfires were sometimes confused though probably more by AA gunners etc

when these planes are viewed from certain angles it is possible to see how this occurred.


<center><img src=http://mysite.freeserve.com/Angel_one_five/ffluke.jpg>

XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 04:08 PM
I agree. There are many cases of friendly fire in WWII (the most notable being the Italian General returning to Italy from the desert being shot down and killed by his own side.)

It was accepted as a risk in war, lamentable, but a risk.

sh it happens. We just need to try and avoid it.

NewS.


Founder member (currently the only member!) of the Unofficial Hurricane Fan Club.

XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 05:47 PM
Gershy wrote:
- wasn't there some saying during WW2?
-
- When the Germans shoot the Allies duck, when the
- British shoot the Germans duck, when an American
- shoots everyone ducks.
-



Yeah, the saying was utter bollocks. We didn't kill each other any more than any of you did.


<Center> I had a cool signature here, but obviously the word document is vulgar.</Center>

XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 05:54 PM
Classicaero wrote:
-
- -
-
-
- 'We' who r u calling we, r u American? you must be
- by the way you say 'we still shoot ourselves' yes
- Americans do seem to shoot up their own side and our
- 'British' blokes far too often. The British suffered
- something like 37 casualties in the last Gulf
- conflict, of which i think about 10 - 14 died in a
- mid air collision between a pair of seaking
- helicopters, a handfull fell to enemy fire, and the
- remaining 20 (ish) got taken out by Trigger Happy
- Yanks. So yet again our "ally" took more lives than
- the enemy. ( you cannot quote my figures they are
- purely form memory)
-
- God only knows what that crazy commander was doing
- with the Patriot battery that took down one of our
- Tornadoes, considering that the Iraqi defence did
- not use a single aircraft throughout the entirety of
- the conflict what made the fool think a Tornado was
- enemy.
-
- In my opinion the only troops that should fight
- alongside Americans on ANY front are Americans.

Yeah, that stupid fool couldn't notice what plane it was when it was flying 500 miles per hour over the desert, several thousand feet above in a war zone, when he hadn't had three hours of sleep all week. Shame on him!!

Hehe, trolls are dumb.





<Center> I had a cool signature here, but obviously the word document is vulgar.</Center>

XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 05:55 PM
I fly in servers that don't have icons, and I'm afraid to admit the number of times I've engaged P-47's thinking they're 190's.

It was a large enough problem that during Normandy all Allied aircraft shunned camo patterns and put big black and white stripes on the wings...

XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 06:12 PM
I thought the Tornado was down low, and i had no idea about the Challenger business, still even if that tornado was flying at 60000ft (unlikely i know but shuush its just for arguemnts sake) and it was pitch black, seen as we had previously demolished Iraqi airpower, that would lead one to beleive that any aircraft flying around are probably friendly.

All you americans out there dont get me wrong i dont hate americans or even dislike you, as a matter of fact i am seriously considering emmigrating when i get my wings, because i like america and the laws that govern it, oh and the people are pretty cool too ;-), i just would'nt walk onto a battlefield with you.

XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 06:17 PM
Classicaero wrote:
- 'We' who r u calling we, r u American? you must be
- by the way you say 'we still shoot ourselves' yes
- Americans do seem to shoot up their own side and our
- 'British' blokes far too often. The British suffered
- something like 37 casualties in the last Gulf
- conflict, of which i think about 10 - 14 died in a
- mid air collision between a pair of seaking
- helicopters, a handfull fell to enemy fire, and the
- remaining 20 (ish) got taken out by Trigger Happy
- Yanks. So yet again our "ally" took more lives than
- the enemy. ( you cannot quote my figures they are
- purely form memory)
-
- God only knows what that crazy commander was doing
- with the Patriot battery that took down one of our
- Tornadoes, considering that the Iraqi defence did
- not use a single aircraft throughout the entirety of
- the conflict what made the fool think a Tornado was
- enemy.
-
- In my opinion the only troops that should fight
- alongside Americans on ANY front are Americans.



Aside from the idiocy of the rest of your post, I'll explain to you why you're wrong.

The Patriot is an automated system. It is dependent on IFF equipment to determine what to shoot at. The Tornadoes that were shot down had an antiquated IFF system that required the pilot to switch the frequency manually, in lieu of the automated systems present in newer aircraft. The cause for the accident was determined to be the pilot's failure to operate this system correctly.

Also, you're a colossal idiot.




---------------------------------

From a big bird in the sky,
All will jump and some will die.
Off to battle we will go,
To live or die, hell, I don't know.
Hail oh hail oh INFANTRY!
Queen of Battle, follow me!
An Airborne Ranger's life for me,
Oh, nothing in this world is free.

Cowace2
Commanding Officer
7. Staffel, JG 77 "Black Eagles"

http://www.7jg77.com

XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 07:30 PM
Just my observation of FB in regards to ID'ing AC: I have NEVER shot down a friendly AC online, or offline for that matter. Aside from the fact that I'm not that great of a shot, it's pretty easy to ID AC types, and ESPECIALLY when the correct markings are used! I usually fly red, and the black & white German markings are quite easy to spot when within firing range (200M). It's also interesting to note that AI gunners NEVER shoot at friendlies. It's nice that FB has spared me the heartbreak of friendly fire tradgedy (except for being an occasional victim, which is really tradgedy for the other guy).

-S!-

"L_Z, winners don't play vulchers" I wish I had a dollar for every time I saw that /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
<center>http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/images/mash_hawkeye.jpg (http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/)</center>

XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 07:41 PM
I have fired at friently AC a couple times; but always managed to find my error before it was too late so I never shot one down. It tells I'm a lousy shot I guess. Mid air collisions with a friendly happened a couple times though.

And I've been shot down by friendly several times though, once even waving my wings like crazy and using my smoke trails to try to warn him was he was on my six.

Nic

http://nicolas10.freeservers.com/images/et.jpg


<center>8.3/10 Troll Rating from USAFHelos

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XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 07:41 PM
And don't forget the several american soldiers died in the crash of those 2 british helicopters. The truth is often SO inconvenient isn't it?

XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 07:54 PM
I think we all need to keep in mind the terrain of Iraq. The desert is unforgiving and a lot of those accidents that occurred where pry NOT due to pilot error. A friend of mine was a helicopter mechanic during the first Gulf War and he said that the sand there just kills those engines and blades. I would imagine the same thing to be true of the Hummers and such.

XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 08:24 PM
Classicaero wrote:
seen as we had previously demolished
- Iraqi airpower, that would lead one to beleive that
- any aircraft flying around are probably friendly.

It wouldn't have been very wise to assume that without a proper IFF signal. It was war afterall, and who knows what they might have tried to do. Remember that imediatly after the war they found 50+ MiG fighters in the western region of Iraq.

XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 08:42 PM
Sheesh...this is a thread about an occurrance in WWII...when IFF technology was just beginning, let's not get into recent, more moronic blunders. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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Message Edited on 06/21/0304:53AM by TaZ_Attack

XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 08:50 PM
TaZ_Attack wrote:
- Sheesh...this is a thread about an occurrance in
- WWII...when IFF technology was just beginning, let's
- not get into recent, more moronic blunders. <img
-

Modern ones are not any more moronic:

Examples...

1. ".So secret was Operation Bodenplatte that the Germans own ground forces were not notified of the large formations of German fighters that would be flying overhead. This resulted in at least one casualty for the JG11 as they were assaulted by friendly fire on their way to Asch. Credit must be given to the German pilots for not breaking radio silence to call off the ground fire. On the return trip several more JG11 and many other German fighters fell to friendly fire before the German guns could be called off."

2. ".It is well known, that the cooperation between the German Kriegsmarine and the German Luftwaffe was not the best during World War 2. Instead of its own naval aviation- the Marineflieger -that the Kriegsmarine demanded for, it was depending on those aircraft the Luftwaffe was willing to give for naval operations. Even more, G√¬∂rings refusal to set those few aircraft that were available for naval warfare under Kriegsmarine command made it necessary to follow a long chain of command between the two branches of the German military to coordinate operations or even inform the other branch about individual operations that both branches would execute in the same area. This bad cooperation found its climax early in the war in February of 1940. The result was what today would be called friendly fire - and the loss of two German destroyers."

3. ".example of friendly fire occurred after dark on the night of December 7th, after the Japanese had fled back to their aircraft carriers, and the American military was angry, armed and finally ready, not knowing what was coming next. Six Navy fighters from the USS Enterprise aircraft carrier arrived over Pearl Harbor unexpectedly, and tried to land on the airstrip on Ford Island, in the middle of the harbor

Tragically, someone was "trigger happy" and assumed that the Japanese had returned. In the darkness, he started to shoot at the American planes. And that was all it took, as everyone with a gun started shooting at them. Suddenly, the sky lit up, with every American gun in the whole area shooting at our own planes. It was a massacre, with five of the six planes shot down, Only one, piloted by Ensign James G. Daniels, was able to land safely."

XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 09:12 PM
TaZ_Attack wrote:
- On September 6, 1939, due to the fact that British
- fighter planes were not fitted with IFF equipment
- (Identification Friend or Foe) at this time of the
- war, a ground radar operator believing he was
- coordinating an attack on enemy machines ordered RAF
- Spitfires from No.74 Squadron to shoot down two
- Hurricanes of No. 56 Squadron by mistake.
-
- At about the same time, ground anti-aircraft fire
- brought down a Blenheim of No.64 Squadron. One pilot
- was killed. There were no German aircraft in the
- area at the time. This was the first time that
- Spitfires had fired their guns in anger.
-
- The Spitfire pilots were subsequently exonerated
- from any blame at a court martial and from then on
- the highest priority was given to the production of
- Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) equipment.
-
- During the period 1939 to 1942, twenty Blenheim
- fighter-bombers were shot down through
- mis-identification by RAF pilots and anti-aircraft
- fire (Seven were shot down by Hurricanes).
-
- This resulted in the deaths of thirty-two aircrew
- with seven others injured. Nineteen other aircraft
- were damaged by being fired upon by mistake.
-
- --------------------------------------------------
- ------
-
-
- I would hate to be the guy who shot down a friendly
- a/c...that would be hard to live with.

- How the heck did those Hurricanes shoot down seven
- Blenheims?

The incident you describe is collectively known as the battle of barking creek, it was caused by a malfunction at one of the chain home radar stations which was scanning inwards instead of outwards over the channel, so when a squadron took off during the day it seemed to the operators that a raid was forming, so fighters were scrambled to intercept, however with each squadron scrambled the radar image got bigger and the raid seemed to be getting larger so in the end most of 11 and 12 group fighter squadrons were up and it was inevitable that some would meet, due to the sun flashing off the hurricanes below them the spitfire pilots thought they were hostile and engaged them, shooting down 2. This caused a great crisis until the fault was located since the chain home system that had been so meticulously designed and built had failed, for this reason IFF equipment was developed for all RAF fighters.


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XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 10:07 PM
TAZ wrote:

- How the heck did those Hurricanes shoot down seven
- Blenheims?


EASY!! You don't lead them so much!!

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XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 10:50 PM
TaZ_Attack wrote:
- On September 6, 1939, due to the fact that British
- fighter planes were not fitted with IFF equipment
- (Identification Friend or Foe) at this time of the
- war, a ground radar operator believing he was
- coordinating an attack on enemy machines ordered RAF
- Spitfires from No.74 Squadron to shoot down two
- Hurricanes of No. 56 Squadron by mistake.

That was over the River Medway, it was also the first A-A kills for the Spitfire /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

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Message Edited on 06/13/0310:51PM by big_lads

XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 10:56 PM
I forgot who it was...Pokrishkin or Kozhedub....or maybe someone else from top soviet aces that got his first air kill ever...and it was soviet PE-2 wich was unknown by front line fighters, due to field trials. He mixed it up with ME110 and thought of himself as a superace, cause PE-2 never fired a shot and went down in flames. Nobody got hurt tho.. Needless to say that only miracle saved poor future ace...from the firing squad.

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 11:00 PM
Why the capslocked title, TaZ?

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XyZspineZyX
06-13-2003, 11:23 PM
http://www.student.smsu.edu/s/san232s/hardfunnypics/bf1942ourship.jpg


8.9/10 (EURO)Troll Rating from USAFHelos

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XyZspineZyX
06-19-2003, 11:33 PM
Interesting story.
On the base that the Blenheims were confused with ju88, I'l give you another story(also from BoB):
On friday, 16 august 1940, during an already usual, Luftwaffe raid on Brittain, A pair of Ju88 "climb" all the way up yo Oxfordshire, attacking the Brize Norton airfield in stange manner:with the landing gear down, they simulate a landing.
Confused by the AAA with Blenheims they mannaged to reach the airfield perimeter, and raising the gear, they throw they bombs over the hangars.
The result?
46 aircrafts destroyed (most of them fueld up, so theey burn completley), 11 of them were Hurricane.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

"The show must go on..."

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 12:06 AM
Nothing new about any of this; Stonewall Jackson after all was killed by mistake by a Confederate sentry.

Classicaero say:

- All you americans out there dont get me wrong i dont
- hate americans or even dislike you, as a matter of
- fact i am seriously considering emmigrating when i
- get my wings, because i like america and the laws
- that govern it, oh and the people are pretty cool
- too ;-), i just would'nt walk onto a battlefield
- with you.

That's very nice. However if you do move to the US, let me give you a bit of advice: for your health and safety, be careful about sounding off as in your earlier post, or making remarks like the last line of this one, in American bars. Not all of us are "cool" about that sort of thing.

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 12:08 AM
Blind_Joe_Death wrote:
- Nothing new about any of this; Stonewall Jackson
- after all was killed by mistake by a Confederate
- sentry.

Can you imagine being that sentry?

BTW, what happened to him? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

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Message Edited on 06/21/0304:52AM by TaZ_Attack

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 12:09 AM
My first wife's granfather fought in north africa and Italy,he was in the artillery.During the Italion campaign they spotted some soldiers with odd uniforms so they opened fire.It turned out they were Polish and had to be very coerced into not killing everyone in his battery.Or so he said.

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 12:36 AM
I remember reading somewhere that there was a Russian ace (forgot the name) who's first kill was a misidentified Su-2. Playing EAW, I've mistaken Spitfires and 109's on many occasions, and I seem to remember reading that 109 pilots would actually use the basic similarity in design as an advantage and slip up behind British bombers, trying to pass themselves off as the escort until they were too close (by which point they were starting to engage). Seems wierd though, I can imagine the Brit bomber crew getting on the radio: "good to see you blokes, thanks for joining us!" and the response "ja ja, dont vorry about anyting, vee haf it under control!".

I think on the ground, in urban combat, friendly fire incidents were relatively frequent - if your in the middle of a firefight, its dark and smokey, and all of a sudden you see a vaguely soldier-shaped figure waving a gun in front of you, you might shoot before taking the time to figure out who it is. I've read about this in several Vietnam books as well as seen it in movies such as Stalingrad. I'd hate to think how it feels to be someone who did this on accident, but if your doing all you can to defend yourself I suppose it's simply bound to happen from time to time. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

And class, your a moron.



Be seeing you.
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XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 01:03 AM
The VVS had several mistaken-identity incidents. I remember reading that one reason the Soviet pilots didn't care for the Spitfire was that it sometimes drew friendly fire from people who didn't recognize it.

For that matter during the early days of World War I the Russian ground troops insisted on firing on all aircraft, under the firm belief that only Germans could build and operate such a clever invention.

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 01:43 AM
LOL!

WW2 conscripts from USSR who saw tanks for the first time fled in horror because they never even seen a tractor, not to mention a tank.

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 02:57 AM
Not only the soviet's were making this kind of mistakes.
I read in a book("Normandie-Niemen" by Martine Monod), about a french pilot from Normandie-Niemen squadron, wich shoot down a friendly, confusing it with a Me109.


"The show must go on..."

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 08:50 AM
Now you know why they put those BIG black & white stripes on Allied a/c for the D-Day operation. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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Message Edited on 06/21/0304:51AM by TaZ_Attack

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 09:23 AM
Classicaero wrote:
- i dont hate americans or even dislike you, i just would'nt walk onto a battlefield with you.



I can assure you, your expert soldiering will be sorely missed. Not sure we can do it without you next time, but we'll try and carry on.

-------
I'm just saying...


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XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 11:00 AM
interesting trivia


early in the war all "commonwealth" forces used the RAF roundel with thered centre circle

in the pacific this was confused with the japanese insignia and a lot of friendly fire incidents arose so the red portion was dropped

this eventually evolved into the roundels used by the RNZAF and RAAF today.

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 11:02 AM
Three months after the Normandy Invasion, ships of the British 1st Minesweeping Flotilla, operating out of the Mulberry Harbour at Arromanches, were sweeping a channel through enemy laid magnetic mines off Cap d'Antifer. This was to enable the battleship' Warspite' to get closer to the French coast to bombard the port of Le Havre still in German hands. The 1st. Flotilla, led by HMS Jason and including the Britomart, Hussar, Salamander and the trawler'Colsay', began their fifth day of minesweeping on Sunday, 27th. of August, 1944. At 1.30pm on this beautiful day, with the sea smooth as a duck pond, sixteen RAF rocket-firing Typhoons, of 263 and 266 Squadrons accompanied by a Polish squadron of Spitfires, swooped out of the sun and attacked the Britomart. On their second attack, the Salamander and Hussar were hit. In just over 10 minutes, two ships were burning and sinking, a third badly damaged and on fire. Men swimming in the water were now subjected to shelling from the German shore batteries. A total of 78 officers and ratings were killed and 149 wounded. Twenty two men were killed on the Britomart and fifty five on Hussar. Survivors were later told to 'keep their mouths shut about the whole affair'. A court of inquiry, held at Arromanches two days later, found that this appalling blunder was due to "an error in communications" the incompetence of naval shore based staff officers who knew the vessels were there but failed to pass this information on to their RAF counterparts. The RAF was completely exonerated.

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XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 03:05 PM
nice read.......

<a href= target="_blank"

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XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 03:45 PM
From the Amazon.com

"Blue on Blue: A History of Friendly Fire
by Geoffrey Regan

British historian, Geoffrey Regan, offers an insightful account of what is know as 'Friendly Fire' or 'blue-on-blue engagements'. Basically, soldiers are killed and maimed by their own side. Regan attempts to trace the history of these incidents from the time of Alexander the Great to the Gulf War. He does so quite well and the reader comes away wondering how in the hell these things could happen.
Through the Ancient and Medieval period, through the Napoleonic and US Civil War to WW1 and WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, the Falklands, and the Gulf War. Some incidents I had heard of like the American bombing fiasco during Operation Cobra in 1944 but others I never knew had occurred. The author attempts to explain how and why these friendly fire incidents occurred and the affects of friendly fire on the soldiers. Most of the stories seem to involve the British Commonwealth forces and the Americans. Very little from the Japanese, Russian and German sides but then again maybe the sources were not available.
Overall this is a very interesting account of a little know military subject and maybe our Military Commanders and Politicians should read the book. Anyone interested in military history should read this book. And as Norman Schwarzkopf said "no fire is friendly"."


During the WWII the pilots where equipped with a flare gun and several signal flares with the colour of the day to warn AA batteries. This should be implemented in FB as the occurrence of the "blue on blue" phenomena.

Viking

PS! OT but!
HeavyDelta wrote;

"I can assure you, your expert soldiering will be sorely missed. Not sure we can do it without you next time, but we'll try and carry on."
Sigh! We have no doubt that you will. Again! And again and again..

fluke39
06-20-2003, 04:44 PM
WTE_Galway wrote:
- interesting trivia
-
-
- early in the war all "commonwealth" forces used the
- RAF roundel with thered centre circle
-
- in the pacific this was confused with the japanese
- insignia and a lot of friendly fire incidents arose
- so the red portion was dropped
-
- this eventually evolved into the roundels used by
- the RNZAF and RAAF today.


This was also true of the American markings which originally was the blue circle with white star and a red circle inside. The red circle was removed to leave the bule circle and white star because this too was causing confusion with the "rising sun".

in many "earlyish" picutes of american naval aircraft you can actually see where the red circle had been painted out.

there were also many many different recognition "stripes" in addition to those used on D-Day - eg lines on rear fusalage, and tailplane, and chequers on tailplane and round the engine cowling. However, this was an admission of the failure to teach aircraft recognition - and many would have liked there to be no recognistion chequers and strips, as these frequently "destroyed" the outline of planes making it harder for those who learnt Aircraft recognition to recognise planes from shape, from a distance where the markings could not be clearly seen.






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XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 05:27 PM
The largest friendly-fire incident during the Operation Desert Storm involved the soldiers of the 3rd Brigade, 2nd Armored Division, during a February 27, 1991, night attack on the 37th Brigade of Iraqs 12th Armored Division.
The tank battle that ensued was a tumultuous, 360-degree action. Limited visibility compounded the confusion of the pre-dawn, swirling battlefield. The US combat vehicles used thermal sights, making identification of friend or foe difficult. The battle damaged or destroyed five Bradleys and five M1 Abrams tanks, with nine of the ten US vehicles hit directly by 120mm depleted uranium sabots fired from US M1 Abrams tanks.

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XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 09:14 PM
I recall reading about this intelligence officer who was dubios about arial claims made by "his" pilots during the Battle of Britain...he thought they were too high after Home Defence reported an arial battle and counted up the wreckages.

Therefore gun cameras were installed in all the Hurricanes and some very surprising results emerged.

It seemed a lot of claims were wild misses, that many of the hits were actually two airplanes firing on the same airplane, and that often times a plane being fired at was actually a friendly airplane.

One good thing the intelligence officer noted that out of the squad of 12 or so pilots, only 1 or 2 could hit anything at all, so the case of mistaken identity didn't really matter anyway.

XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 01:52 AM
wasn't that from the fictional work 'peice of cake' by Derek Robinson?



Message Edited on 06/21/0312:55AM by Yarvin4