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56th_BoobyTrap
12-12-2004, 10:07 AM
Natualpoint is comming out with the Track IR3 Vector expansion wich enable the user to go in 6 dimensions with the head in stead of the 2 dimension wich is used to look around.

I quote from Track IR website
"Vector Expansion
(only compatible with the TrackIR 3 series, or later)

A great thing just got better!
The Vector expansion, building on the proven and affordable TrackIR technology, takes head tracking to a new level of realism.

Vector precisely translates all head motion into your virtual point of view. Pan side to side, look around, even zoom with full 3-dimensional tracking. Combined with the TrackIR-3, you get the most realistic head tracking experience possible. Vector allows you to expand your view control to a full range of motion, from 2 Degrees (2DOF pitch/yaw), to all six degrees of freedom (6DOF). No matter how or which direction you move your head, Vector instantly captures it with extreme precision and accuracy."

My question for the developers are, will the Vector Expansion also be progrogrammed in the IL2 series?

More more info about the Vector Expansion check out this link: http://www.naturalpoint.com/trackir/products/vector.html

56th_BoobyTrap
12-12-2004, 10:07 AM
Natualpoint is comming out with the Track IR3 Vector expansion wich enable the user to go in 6 dimensions with the head in stead of the 2 dimension wich is used to look around.

I quote from Track IR website
"Vector Expansion
(only compatible with the TrackIR 3 series, or later)

A great thing just got better!
The Vector expansion, building on the proven and affordable TrackIR technology, takes head tracking to a new level of realism.

Vector precisely translates all head motion into your virtual point of view. Pan side to side, look around, even zoom with full 3-dimensional tracking. Combined with the TrackIR-3, you get the most realistic head tracking experience possible. Vector allows you to expand your view control to a full range of motion, from 2 Degrees (2DOF pitch/yaw), to all six degrees of freedom (6DOF). No matter how or which direction you move your head, Vector instantly captures it with extreme precision and accuracy."

My question for the developers are, will the Vector Expansion also be progrogrammed in the IL2 series?

More more info about the Vector Expansion check out this link: http://www.naturalpoint.com/trackir/products/vector.html

PriK
12-12-2004, 10:49 AM
So...where have you been? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

GAU-8
12-12-2004, 11:11 AM
make a long story short...

the answer ... NO.

look for just about any thread that says "6DOF!" in the title

in it.. youll find all the answers as to why it wont be implemented into IL-2.

edit: go here, this will sum up a lot of it
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=26310365&m=1771098052

BSS_Vidar
12-12-2004, 07:34 PM
Soooo, MS finaly did something right for a change. Oh well, I guess I'll just utilize this function on FS 2004 when I practice my precision and non-precision approaches. What a waiste of hardward and money I've just commited. LOMAC's no going to support it either. Wonder if I can cancel my order before they ship it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

oeqvist
12-12-2004, 08:12 PM
How do you know LOMAC is not going to support it?

BuzzU
12-12-2004, 08:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by oeqvist:
How do you know LOMAC is not going to support it? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought that's what ED said?

goshikisen
12-12-2004, 08:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
My question for the developers are, will the Vector Expansion also be progrogrammed in the IL2 series?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This 6DOF stuff is getting bizarre. It's like there's been an NP insurgency on this forum.

BSS_Vidar
12-12-2004, 09:22 PM
I found out becuase I read the LOMAC forums more than I read these. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

triggerhappyfin
12-13-2004, 12:51 AM
This 6DOH is good as an idea, but NP ppl did´nt realize the facts around how a flight sim ws done http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

No gamedeveloper in the world want to implement it and ruin the impression of ac cockpit by showing whats not there http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Bits and pieces were left out by the simple fact: nobody ever would see them! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

What NP forgot was: We dont deal with real planes but virtual impressions of them http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Simply take a look at a picture of an aircraft and flip the pic around....Nothing´s there! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

What in H**l were NP thinking of http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif.

crazyivan1970
12-13-2004, 01:39 AM
One more thread like this... and i`ll shoot myself http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

DarthBane_
12-13-2004, 02:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by goshikisen:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
My question for the developers are, will the Vector Expansion also be progrogrammed in the IL2 series?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This 6DOF stuff is getting bizarre. It's like there's been an NP insurgency on this forum. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

People have a problem with tool and use viagra,
others use TIR, now with 6DOF.
Real men use hatswitch, because u must feel like a ****** if your sitting with hat and dot at home. You are all supose to be men for god sake! Enough with that 6DOF $hit!

jeroen-79
12-13-2004, 03:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
One more thread like this... and i`ll shoot myself http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Promise? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

GAU-8
12-13-2004, 03:12 AM
fin...

why are you attacking natural point? its not their fault "nothings there" its somebody elses decision NOT to put them in..
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

i completely understand the principle of why they were left out... but i wouldnt have done it.. the commercialism of flight sims these days, and the hardware implemented is mind bending. technology will catch up to what we wish for in a game at some point.

triggerhappyfin
12-13-2004, 05:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GAU-8:
fin...

why are you attacking natural point? its not their fault "nothings there" its somebody elses decision NOT to put them in..
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

i completely understand the principle of why they were left out... but i wouldnt have done it.. the commercialism of flight sims these days, and the hardware implemented is mind bending. technology will catch up to what we wish for in a game at some point. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please do´nt take it as an attack on NP.
I just find it quite hilarious, all these effort on making this addon to TRACK IR and the marketing, not knowing how it would affect the games it´s intended to.

Spitf_ACE
12-13-2004, 06:49 AM
Fin...

NP have been working alongside Oleg to help implement 6DOF within BoB. The cockpits will be designed so that 6DOF is fully functional. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

NP were looking to the future, as is Oleg. It's just a shame that a lot of people are demanding that they must get what they want NOW http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif ; without realising/caring that it would hinder the work that is being done on BoB, which will give them exactly what they are asking for!

I'm sure Tagert will be along soon to tell me that I'm wrong, and that a 3rd party will be able to do the neccessary work. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif I would love that to be the case, but I haven't heard anyone say that they will do this! Also, does the fact that the IL2 series isn't open code cause any problems for a 3rd party? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

oeqvist
12-13-2004, 06:56 AM
Come on you don´t think NP plans longer than their nose sticks out?

Of course they (and we) want it implemented in as many games as possible. This is what TrackIR is aimed for games in general not specific like IL 2 or LOMAC. The more the merrier.

triggerhappyfin
12-13-2004, 07:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by oeqvist:
<span class="ev_code_RED">Come on you don´t think NP plans longer than their nose sticks out?</span>
Of course they (and we) want it implemented in as many games as possible. This is what TrackIR is aimed for games in general not specific like IL 2 or LOMAC. The more the merrier. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That I cant decide on, but it sure dont look good on their behalf. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Scen
12-13-2004, 09:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by triggerhappyfin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by oeqvist:
<span class="ev_code_RED">Come on you don´t think NP plans longer than their nose sticks out?</span>
Of course they (and we) want it implemented in as many games as possible. This is what TrackIR is aimed for games in general not specific like IL 2 or LOMAC. The more the merrier. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That I cant decide on, but it sure dont look good on their behalf. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your nickname should be Mr. Negative...

I take it you don't like NP.

I'm curious do you own a TIR?

Scendore

PriK
12-13-2004, 10:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by triggerhappyfin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by oeqvist:
<span class="ev_code_RED">Come on you don´t think NP plans longer than their nose sticks out?</span>
Of course they (and we) want it implemented in as many games as possible. This is what TrackIR is aimed for games in general not specific like IL 2 or LOMAC. The more the merrier. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That I cant decide on, but it sure dont look good on their behalf. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry man but you have a very messed up view of how things work. You would do much better not to use your brain to try and figure these things out.

You might think the universe revolves around PF but luckily NP knows better and is supporting over a dozen games in the short term and dozens more already in the pipes.

They are in the same mind as me that most of us can live with what would be a few VERY MINOR anomolies in the cockpit models which you guys are making a mountain out of a molehill about. For those that would be disgusted be a floating gunsight, well just don't use it!

I sometimes wonder if people even try to make sense of things here or just jump on a bandwagon and spout off without any actual knowledge to add. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

triggerhappyfin
12-13-2004, 12:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PriK:

<span class="ev_code_RED">Sorry man but you have a very messed up view of how things work</span>. You would do much better not to use your brain to try and figure these things out.

You might think the universe revolves around PF but luckily NP knows better and is supporting over a dozen games in the short term and dozens more already in the pipes.

They are in the same mind as me that most of us can live with what would be a few VERY MINOR anomolies in the cockpit models which you guys are making a mountain out of a molehill about. For those that would be disgusted be a floating gunsight, well just don't use it!

I sometimes wonder if people even try to make sense of things here or just jump on a bandwagon and spout off without any actual knowledge to add. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, maybe I have or maybe I have´nt. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Fact is we are not discussin the "dozens" of games in some pipes but PF.

My point is that Olegs decision on not try to implement 6DOF in PF is a good decision.
All the whining on this decision might be ignited by ppl not knowing what they try to achieve. Think of all the whining these ppl would drown these forums in if the 6DOF would be implemented as is http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif.

The work needed to make it possible to release is beyond our imagination, dont you think?

rummyrum
12-13-2004, 01:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by triggerhappyfin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PriK:

<span class="ev_code_RED">Sorry man but you have a very messed up view of how things work</span>. You would do much better not to use your brain to try and figure these things out.

You might think the universe revolves around PF but luckily NP knows better and is supporting over a dozen games in the short term and dozens more already in the pipes.

They are in the same mind as me that most of us can live with what would be a few VERY MINOR anomolies in the cockpit models which you guys are making a mountain out of a molehill about. For those that would be disgusted be a floating gunsight, well just don't use it!

I sometimes wonder if people even try to make sense of things here or just jump on a bandwagon and spout off without any actual knowledge to add. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, maybe I have or maybe I have´nt. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Fact is we are not discussin the "dozens" of games in some pipes but PF.

My point is that Olegs decision on not try to implement 6DOF in PF is a good decision.
All the whining on this decision might be ignited by ppl not knowing what they try to achieve. Think of all the whining these ppl would drown these forums in if the 6DOF would be implemented as is http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif.

The work needed to make it possible to release is beyond our imagination, dont you think? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Still jealous eh http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

triggerhappyfin
12-13-2004, 02:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rummyrum:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by triggerhappyfin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PriK:

<span class="ev_code_RED">Sorry man but you have a very messed up view of how things work</span>. You would do much better not to use your brain to try and figure these things out.

You might think the universe revolves around PF but luckily NP knows better and is supporting over a dozen games in the short term and dozens more already in the pipes.

They are in the same mind as me that most of us can live with what would be a few VERY MINOR anomolies in the cockpit models which you guys are making a mountain out of a molehill about. For those that would be disgusted be a floating gunsight, well just don't use it!

I sometimes wonder if people even try to make sense of things here or just jump on a bandwagon and spout off without any actual knowledge to add. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, maybe I have or maybe I have´nt. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Fact is we are not discussin the "dozens" of games in some pipes but PF.

My point is that Olegs decision on not try to implement 6DOF in PF is a good decision.
All the whining on this decision might be ignited by ppl not knowing what they try to achieve. Think of all the whining these ppl would drown these forums in if the 6DOF would be implemented as is http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif.

The work needed to make it possible to release is beyond our imagination, dont you think? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Still jealous eh http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

PriK
12-13-2004, 04:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by triggerhappyfin:
Well, maybe I have or maybe I have´nt. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Fact is we are not discussin the "dozens" of games in some pipes but PF.

My point is that Olegs decision on not try to implement 6DOF in PF is a good decision.
All the whining on this decision might be ignited by ppl not knowing what they try to achieve. Think of all the whining these ppl would drown these forums in if the 6DOF would be implemented as is http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif.

The work needed to make it possible to release is beyond our imagination, dont you think? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Beyond yours perhaps. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And if you were following the progression of the discussion you'd see that we are well past the "work beyond imagination" part and on to limited solutions that would be relatively easy to put in.

Your part in this seems only to keep shouting "no" every few posts interrupting the actual discussion without anything to add.

I don't mean to insult you and I'm sure you have Oleg's best intentions in mind but I just think it's best if you stick to the topics you can contribute to. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And if you want to push the point, you were making some blanket statement laughing that NP must be stupid and somehow realized after their work that it was folly since Oleg didn't want it in. I can assure you and I think it's quite fair to say that NP knows more about their business than you do.

I'm also going to take a wild guess that you don't have a TIR and hence wouldn't have a clue as to what we're talking about anyway which begs the question why you've appointed yourself the forum topic police.

Are you one of bearcat's henchmen? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

BSS_Vidar
12-13-2004, 04:11 PM
I myself am a little set back by the thought that MS was thinking ahead enough to empliment this, but Ubi developers were not. I say Ubi as a whole because LOMAC will not support this function either.

Oh well, "say la vee". - in a Texas accent. :-D

Scen
12-13-2004, 04:33 PM
[/QUOTE]Beyond yours perhaps. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And if you were following the progression of the discussion you'd see that we are well past the "work beyond imagination" part and on to limited solutions that would be relatively easy to put in.

Your part in this seems only to keep shouting "no" every few posts interrupting the actual discussion without anything to add.

I don't mean to insult you and I'm sure you have Oleg's best intentions in mind but I just think it's best if you stick to the topics you can contribute to. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And if you want to push the point, you were making some blanket statement laughing that NP must be stupid and somehow realized after their work that it was folly since Oleg didn't want it in. I can assure you and I think it's quite fair to say that NP knows more about their business than you do.

I'm also going to take a wild guess that you don't have a TIR and hence wouldn't have a clue as to what we're talking about anyway which begs the question why you've appointed yourself the forum topic police.

Are you one of bearcat's henchmen? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/QUOTE]

Great post.

I agree, I doubt he owns a TIR give some of his responses. I find it strange that the guys that don't want vector or any form of it are guys that don't own a TIR. I don't get it. It must be some sort of wierd envy or they think it's some sort of cheat. I can't quite figure out.

Also I think it's fair to say the most of the users that own the TIR won't fly without it. And for someone to dog NP is beyond me. I think NP has given us a great product and regardless of the situation it's the future of flight sims.

Scendore

PriK
12-13-2004, 07:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BSS_Vidar:
I myself am a little set back by the thought that MS was thinking ahead enough to empliment this, but Ubi developers were not. I say Ubi as a whole because LOMAC will not support this function either.

Oh well, "say la vee". - in a Texas accent. :-D <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's not UBI's fault (they are just a distributer) and it's not even 1C's fault (Oleg and team) because this engine was designed years ago when even the best computer systems struggled to play it! Weeding out as many polygons as possible actually made possible the beautiful cockpits we see today!

I can also assure you that Microsoft had no foresight for including Vector support and I'm not even sure they still support CFS3 or FS2004. NaturalPoint was able to enable 6DOF views in FS2004 on their own through the already available hook into the sim.

NP was going to do the same for PF using a basic method of integration but ran into an issue with the non-standard way the IL2 engine uses DirectX . It would still be possible for them to do it but with a lot of effort and little guarantees unless Oleg made some simple changes to it. However, Oleg expressed his desire that they do not do it themselves and NP respects Oleg's wishes.

This whole matter about cockpits is that Oleg would rather we have no 6DOF if it can't be made perfect. I personally, with others, think we can handle slight imperfections with a limited implementation.

That is the crux of the whole discussion. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BSS_Vidar
12-13-2004, 11:42 PM
Oh I'm sure MS had no idea Track IR was comming, let alone Vectoring in cockpit. If you watch the demo's, you'll see they are CFS3 and FS2002/04. It's that head positioning option they have in-game that makes it posible.

TAGERT.
12-14-2004, 12:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PriK:
This whole matter about cockpits is that Oleg would rather we have no 6DOF if it can't be made perfect. I personally, with others, think we can handle slight imperfections with a limited implementation.

That is the crux of the whole discussion. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That sums it up nicly! Yet to this day some still belive we are demanding that Oleg bring the IL2-Pf cockpits up to modern BoB like standards.. Yet I have yet to find one thread that ever said that! It seems to be a myth that some people are just using to try and get the thread locked.. The motivation behind that.. Only they know for sure.. Blows my mind really.. But I have seen the same knee jerk responce to evey new inovation in the past 10+ years. For example.. People stood in the way of progress and used the unfair excuse.. And went as far as to sugest that the sim should NOT SUPPORT XXX becuase it was unfair to people who didnt have an XXX. For example over the last 10+ years I have seen this same lame argument applied to the following events:

When Joysticks came out (vs keyboards)
When Joysticks with HATS came out
When Force Feedback Joysticks came out
When RUDDER PEDDLES came out
When THROTTLES came out
When things like DeviceLink came out

Trully sad.. This 6DOF is the best thing to happen to flight sims with regards to imerrsion sense the introduction of the joystick! And IL2-Pf is the best sim to come out in the past 10+ years.. The two should be toghter.. Yet because of a few who dont understand how it will help them and some who are just plain jellious we will most likly not see it happen

triggerhappyfin
12-14-2004, 01:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PriK:

Beyond yours perhaps. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And if you were following the progression of the discussion you'd see that we are well past the "work beyond imagination" part and on to <span class="ev_code_RED">limited solutions that would be relatively easy to put in.</span>
Your part in this seems only to keep shouting "no" every few posts interrupting the actual discussion without anything to add.

I don't mean to insult you and I'm sure you have Oleg's best intentions in mind but I just think it's best if you stick to the topics you can contribute to. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And if you want to push the point, you were making some blanket statement laughing that NP must be stupid and somehow realized after their work that it was folly since Oleg didn't want it in. I can assure you and I think it's quite fair to say that NP knows more about their business than you do.

I'm also going to take a wild guess that you don't have a TIR and hence wouldn't have a clue as to what we're talking about anyway which begs the question why you've appointed yourself the forum topic police.

Are you one of bearcat's henchmen? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who is to judge what is relatively easy and worthwhile to implement?

By the way I´m no ones henchman and neither a self appointed forum topic police...sad you take it like that.
I´m only speaking for my opinion and the facts given show severe difficulties in getting things done your way.
It is also some kind of missunderstanding that I would be against such a development, witch is not true. The function of 6DOF is quite awesome but with the difficulties in question its my opinion it should be dropped and ppl should stop adding pressure on Oleg on this issue - He´s stated his decision clearly enough.

1C resources is needed to other features.

Busysilent1
12-14-2004, 07:56 AM
Watch this new unofficial video (http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~hotdognz/Files/fs96DOF.wmv) and now honestly say "I can wait another 2 years for this immersion feature, especially if my favorite plane has open cockpit."

Too bad I am not a big fan of FS/CFS series.

PriK
12-14-2004, 08:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BSS_Vidar:
Oh I'm sure MS had no idea Track IR was comming, let alone Vectoring in cockpit. If you watch the demo's, you'll see they are CFS3 and FS2002/04. It's that head positioning option they have in-game that makes it posible. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not exactly. Vector support was hacked in by NaturalPoint not Microsoft through their existing TIR enhanced interface. Aces High however, were aware of the coming of Vector some months ago and careful attention was applied to their design of the cockpits and programming to make it possible although I haven't tried it yet myself. If you don't know already I'm on the TIR beta team.

BTW, some of you Grand Prix Legends fans might be interested to know that the new version of GPLshift supports the new Version4 Vector software and soon will have full 6DOF support as well.

Philipscdrw
12-14-2004, 08:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Scen:
Great post.

I agree, I doubt he owns a TIR give some of his responses. I find it strange that the guys that don't want vector or any form of it are guys that don't own a TIR. I don't get it. It must be some sort of wierd envy or they think it's some sort of cheat. I can't quite figure out.

Also I think it's fair to say the most of the users that own the TIR won't fly without it. And for someone to dog NP is beyond me. I think NP has given us a great product and regardless of the situation it's the future of flight sims.

Scendore <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
We all want 6DoF, but the practical reality is that it isn't possible to implement it correctly in Il-2. I've never had TiR, and I would love to see 6DoF in PF, and I would buy it if I could afford it right now, but in Oleg's opinion the graphical issues with the old Il-2 series cockpits are too bad. I'm not against 6DoF in Il-2, I'm just fed up with all the trolling going on whining for it when it's been made clear many times that it isn't going to happen.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>PriK:
This whole matter about cockpits is that Oleg would rather we have no 6DOF if it can't be made perfect. I personally, with others, think we can handle slight imperfections with a limited implementation.

That is the crux of the whole discussion. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This is indeed the crux of the 'discussion', but the debate is moot, because this is Oleg's sim and he decides what goes on. Il-2 isn't a democracy!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Tagert:
That sums it up nicly! Yet to this day some still belive we are demanding that Oleg bring the IL2-Pf cockpits up to modern BoB like standards.. Yet I have yet to find one thread that ever said that! It seems to be a myth that some people are just using to try and get the thread locked.. The motivation behind that.. Only they know for sure.. Blows my mind really.. But I have seen the same knee jerk responce to evey new inovation in the past 10+ years. For example.. People stood in the way of progress and used the unfair excuse.. And went as far as to sugest that the sim should NOT SUPPORT XXX becuase it was unfair to people who didnt have an XXX. For example over the last 10+ years I have seen this same lame argument applied to the following events:

When Joysticks came out (vs keyboards)
When Joysticks with HATS came out
When Force Feedback Joysticks came out
When RUDDER PEDDLES came out
When THROTTLES came out
When things like DeviceLink came out

Trully sad.. This 6DOF is the best thing to happen to flight sims with regards to imerrsion sense the introduction of the joystick! And IL2-Pf is the best sim to come out in the past 10+ years.. The two should be toghter.. Yet because of a few who dont understand how it will help them and some who are just plain jellious we will most likly not see it happen <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Where did you get this idea that our opinions matter about whether we get 6DoF or not? Close that book and never open it again!

You are inventing false arguments. No-one is protesting against 6DoF because it gives a advantage the way that throttles and rudder do, but because there's graphical issues that Oleg is unhappy with. 6DoF is great, yes, but it is unsuitable for Il-2. BoB will be even greater than Il-2 was, and won't be let down by missing textures.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Busysilent1:
Watch this video and now honestly say "I can wait another 2 years for this immersion feature."

Too bad I am not a big fan of FS/CFS series. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I can wait 2 years for 6DoF in Oleg's sims. Honestly. I'd rather see it done properly than with tearing issues...

Busysilent1
12-14-2004, 09:09 AM
Thanks, PhillipsCDRw, for your opinion and I respect your patience. I am a patient man myself if I have to be. But the issue is do we have to be patient in this case or there is a workable middle ground.

Now my question to people who has first hand knowledge only please: Is it possible to enable 6DoF for some cockpits and not for others? For example, assuming Oleg entertains an idea of throwing us "whiners" a bone and re-work (to his taste) 2-3 pits, e.g. his shinny highly detailed pit for I-185, just to give us a peak how awesome it will look in the future for all planes, will that negatively affect planes with "6Dof disabled" pits?

Thanks in advance for knowledgable answers.

Philipscdrw
12-14-2004, 09:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Busysilent1:
Thanks, PhillipsCDRw, for your opinion and I respect your patience. I am a patient man myself if I have to be. But the issue is do we have to be patient in this case or there is a workable middle ground.

Now my question to people who has first hand knowledge only please: Is it possible to enable 6DoF for some cockpits and not for others? For example, assuming Oleg entertains an idea of throwing us "whiners" a bone and re-work (to his taste) 2-3 pits, e.g. his shinny highly detailed pit for I-185, just to give us a peak how awesome it will look in the future for all planes, will that negatively affect planes with "6Dof disabled" pits?

Thanks in advance for knowledgable answers. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It might cause more problems, to have some aircraft with 6DoF and others without - online play wouldn't be as balanced. But I suppose it wouldn't matter so much if not many people are using 6DoF...

Actually I'm kinda liking the idea of 6DoF for some aircraft. Of course I don't know which aircraft would be compatible, and I'm sure that Oleg has considered this already, and I still think that this forum won't really cause him to change his mind, but it's an interesting idea.

Fehler
12-14-2004, 09:23 AM
OK, to illustrate my problem with implimentation of 6DOF in the game as it stands without repairing the cockpits, I took the liberty of uploading two pics. The origianal I "Borrowed" from Gibbage.

In the first pic, this is the cockpit with a little plane icon off to the side. The picture (Without my poor representation of a plane) was uploaded by Gibbage to show an example of how "Unfinished" some of the cokcpits are - this being a P-38 rear look for example.

The second pic (Again, I have to apologize for my poor graphical representation) is my approximation of just how much is really missing with the lean. You will notice that this is not a "Minor tearing" or "Minor clipping issue" The whole right nacel, rudder, and elevator sections are MISSING. This would give a huge unfair advantage to people that use 6DOF (Which I would be one of them, be sure!)

But honestly, it's not just that, it makes the game look bad.

Now, if some (Obviously) more talented people than myself could come up with a fix, I bet Oleg would entertain it. But the truth is it would be a large undertaking to get the cockpits up to standard.

Again this is not a minor clipping issue like the small piece of wing that is missing frmo some pits at the wingroot when your view position is at some weird angle. So you guys that are screaming for immursion and realism want this?

Here are the pics:

http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/p38-pov1.jpg

http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/p38-pov2.jpg

TAGERT.
12-14-2004, 09:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
OK, to illustrate my problem with implimentation of 6DOF in the game as it stands without repairing the cockpits, I took the liberty of uploading two pics. The origianal I "Borrowed" from Gibbage.

In the first pic, this is the cockpit with a little plane icon off to the side. The picture (Without my poor representation of a plane) was uploaded by Gibbage to show an example of how "Unfinished" some of the cokcpits are - this being a P-38 rear look for example.

The second pic (Again, I have to apologize for my poor graphical representation) is my approximation of just how much is really missing with the lean. You will notice that this is not a "Minor tearing" or "Minor clipping issue" The whole right nacel, rudder, and elevator sections are MISSING. This would give a huge unfair advantage to people that use 6DOF (Which I would be one of them, be sure!) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>GOT YAH! Man.. you should really try reading my post some time! In that I POINTED OUT TO GIBBAGE that he P38 view that he used is just the 3D cockpit without the 3D exterior art.. Which is WHY YOU COULD SEE that little airplan icon.. But had he show his example with the 3D cockpit AND 3D exterior art then you could not see that little plan icon because it would look like your 2nd picture!!!

http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/p38-pov2.jpg

This is a perfect example of the type of people who dont understand the issues, and thus go off half cocked! Thanks Fehler for confirming what I allready knew about you.. I hope this lesson helps the rest of you.. and some of the MODs that dont get it!

TAGERT.
12-14-2004, 09:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Philipscdrw:
Where did you get this idea that our opinions matter about whether we get 6DoF or not? Close that book and never open it again!

You are inventing false arguments. No-one is protesting against 6DoF because it gives a advantage the way that throttles and rudder do, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Sorry, but your wrong! Some have said it in past threads, and some are even saying it in this thread.. dont belive me? Check out the poster boy example below that *illustrates* just how wrong some people are about all this! ie take a look at Fehlers most recent.. Unfortuntly due to his lack of understanding about the 3D cockpit art he is all wrong! In that in Gibbbages example Gibbage was showing how the COCKPIT ART would look FUNNY in some situations.. he comment to that picture was LOOK YOU CAN NOT SEE THE RADIO BEHIND THE SEAT! Because they didnt draw a radio behind the SEAT! Therefore Gibbages didnt take the time to merge the 3D cockpit art with the 3D exterior art.. Had he done that it would have filled in that gaping hole to the rear and blocked the icon that Fehler had drawn in would have been blocked by the 3D exterior art just like it does in Fehler's 2nd picture

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Philipscdrw:
but because there's graphical issues that Oleg is unhappy with. 6DoF is great, yes, but it is unsuitable for Il-2. BoB will be even greater than Il-2 was, and won't be let down by missing textures. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The thing you and some MODS dont seem to recal is that the NP rep said " is reluctant to have it enabled"

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Philipscdrw:
I can wait 2 years for 6DoF in Oleg's sims. Honestly. I'd rather see it done properly than with tearing issues... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Granted it would not be perfect, but it would not be as bad as some poster bosy would have you think.

PriK
12-14-2004, 09:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Busysilent1:
Thanks, PhillipsCDRw, for your opinion and I respect your patience. I am a patient man myself if I have to be. But the issue is do we have to be patient in this case or there is a workable middle ground.

Now my question to people who has first hand knowledge only please: Is it possible to enable 6DoF for some cockpits and not for others? For example, assuming Oleg entertains an idea of throwing us "whiners" a bone and re-work (to his taste) 2-3 pits, e.g. his shinny highly detailed pit for I-185, just to give us a peak how awesome it will look in the future for all planes, will that negatively affect planes with "6Dof disabled" pits?

Thanks in advance for knowledgable answers. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Busysilent1,

Unfortunately this isn't really possible without a full 6DOF integration by Oleg which is not going to happen and would be too much work anyway. There would have to be a "blanket" view limit applied to the game as a whole if we're going to have any type of solution at this point.

The idea of a limited view of some six inches to all axes except pitch (already limited to 180 degrees) and yaw (already limited to something like 300 degrees).

Fehler, I've already discounted these extreme view examples put up by Gibbage as being irrelevent because they are zoomed in at the extreme view limits. If you were to try this even now in game (zoomed in) you'll find that your view limit is restricted further so this view isn't possible.

If Gibbage can demonstrate a screenshot with any sort of major imperfection taking into account possible views and a limit of say 6" in X, Y, or Z values I'll be more inclined to agree that there is no feasible solution. Remember there are no 180 degree views anymore, especially when zoomed.

The limited view solution would reflect ONLY the swivel of a pilots head as he leans it slightly to follow around a cockpit strut or crane slightly to look over the dash.

I believe that this solution would show little if no major clipping or missing polys at least to the extent that it could add some sort of online advantage or reasonably detract from the look of the cockpit.

It's not a matter of disagreeing or not believing Oleg or Gibbage it's about solutions that neither have seriously considered and could be worthwhile for everybody, not just TIR users, imho. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

TAGERT.
12-14-2004, 09:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PriK:
It's not a matter of disagreeing or not believing Oleg or Gibbage it's about solutions that neither have seriously considered and could be worthwhile for everybody, not just TIR users, imho. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Exactally!

Busysilent1
12-14-2004, 10:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PriK:
Unfortunately this isn't really possible without a full 6DOF integration by Oleg which is not going to happen and would be too much work anyway. There would have to be a "blanket" view limit applied to the game as a whole if we're going to have any type of solution at this point. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for your answer, PriK. Just to clarify my question, IF Oleg AGREES to implement but only has time to do that for 2-3 pits, is it possible? For example, if I enable Vector in the game now, nothing will happen, right? So if Oleg (and Oleg only) enables a couple of pits, it will not work for disabled but will not adversly affect them. Please confirm/speculate.

Fehler
12-14-2004, 10:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TAGERT.:
GOT YAH! Man.. you should really try reading my post some time! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which of the dozen cr@p filled typical tagert threads was it in? I dont waste much of my time on information you present.. for obvious reasons.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TAGERT.:
Thanks Fehler for confirming what I allready knew about you.. I hope this lesson helps the rest of you.. and some of the MODs that dont get it! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey ****... Did I give you permission to talk to me? Let me get one thing straight for you, you DONT know me, and furthermore you should be thankful.

The fact is if you werent such a horses a$$, people might actually take a second to read some of your posts. Surely you must have something valuable to say every once in a blue moon but since you always seem to go into some foot-stomping-kiddie-mode and/or feel some sort of need to believe you have to lecture people, no one wants to listen to you or give much of what you say any weight. You have a serious maturity problem, but a talent to bring others down to your level.

Now, run along kiddie, there are adults talking here.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>By PriK:
It's not a matter of disagreeing or not believing Oleg or Gibbage it's about solutions that neither have seriously considered and could be worthwhile for everybody, not just TIR users, imho. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I totally agree with you. There has to be a viable solution to getting this sort of thing implimented in the game.

I guess we are all hoping that "IF" a good solution could be attained, Oleg might reconsider his position. "Limited lean" seemed like a good propostition, but we have to first get a cockpit builder with the resources to do some tests and post some results.

Anyone have any ideas? *Looks at Gibbage and Jippo*

BaldieJr
12-14-2004, 10:33 AM
Just a reminder that this pic is a blatant falsification. When I check six, I always see the tail section of my plane. The individual who created this pic in photoshop obviously left out a large portion of the plane model in order to create Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt.

http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/p38-pov1.jpg

Fehler
12-14-2004, 10:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BaldieJr:
Just a reminder that this pic is a blatant falsification. When I check six, I always see the tail section of my plane. The individual who created this pic in photoshop obviously left out a large portion of the plane model in order to create Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt.

http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/p38-pov1.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, it was the second pic posted by Gibbage in the 6DOF (My View) thread that got cluttered and locked.

Since I cant lean, I dont know what is behind the headrest. As tagert pointed out, the original pic was posted without the external 3d object.

I doubt Gibbage was trying to strike fear into folks, but I have to admit, it ended up being a little misleading to me. He was probably making an attempt to show something other than the glaring "Missing object".

widgeon
12-14-2004, 04:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PriK:
This whole matter about cockpits is that Oleg would rather we have no 6DOF if it can't be made perfect. I personally, with others, think we can handle slight imperfections with a limited implementation.

That is the crux of the whole discussion. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yes, this is the crux!

Glad to see were all still talking http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Even though its only to ourselves... As far as we know.


Widgeon

TAGERT.
12-14-2004, 09:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
Which of the dozen cr@p filled typical tagert threads was it in? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The same one you got that picture from.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
I don't waste much of my time on information you present.. for obvious reasons. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The only obvious things is you don't know what your talking about with regards to 6DOF, 3D cockpits, and the way IL2-Pf does things. Had you wasted a little time and read my post before you went on your rant you would have LEARNED something and not made such a fool of yourself.. But, don't feel too bad, a lot of people did it too.. And even some of the MOD's. See what happens when you close your mind to new ideas? You closed it to the point that you made a fool of yourself

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
Hey ****... Did I give you permission to talk to me? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ok, time for another lesson.. Fehler.. People don't need permission to reply to other people in a forum.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
Let me get one thing straight for you, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That would be a first!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
you DONT know me, and furthermore you should be thankful. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I know your type though.. And I knew you didn't know what you were talking about with regards to 6DOF.. Which is all I NEED TO KNOW in this forum and the topics at hand. I could care less about the details of your life.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
The fact is if you weren't such a horses a$$, people might actually take a second to read some of your posts. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The fact is I have to be a horses a$$ because I am constantly dealing with people who THINK they know something and go off half cocked about it.. It is about the only way to get their self righteous a$$ to pay attention. But, in your case you thought you knew so much that you didn't have to... How did you say it? Waste your time reading my reply.. Because YOU ALREADY KNEW IT ALL! Right?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
Surely you must have something valuable to say every once in a blue moon <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Agreed 100% Like the time I pointed out in that thread you got the picture form that the exterior art was not part of the picture.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
but since you always seem to go into some foot-stomping-kiddie-mode and/or feel some sort of need to believe you have to lecture people, no one wants to listen to you or give much of what you say any weight. You have a serious maturity problem, but a talent to bring others down to your level. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>If that is your apology to me.. apology accepted. Also, it takes a big man to admit when he was wrong, I respect that!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
Now, run along kiddie, there are adults talking here. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You Go Girl!

Fehler
12-14-2004, 10:00 PM
*Yawn*

http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/crybaby.gif

TAGERT.
12-14-2004, 10:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
*Yawn*

http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/crybaby.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ah.. what can you expect from a guy who can not admit he was wrong.. On that note.. where is your buddy Philipscdrw? I have not seen him sense he said nobody is saying 6DOF gives an unfair advantage.. Maybe he just considers you a nobody? ROTFL!

Fehler
12-15-2004, 10:03 AM
tagert, what is it exactly that you think I am wrong about?

I was wrong about the 3d art not included in Gibbage's picture.

Fine, I admit that. Here, however, is the reason I missed it...

If you go back and review the thread that started all of this, you will notice that you didnt say a thing about the issue until the 6th (sixth) page of the thread. By then you had started or were part of several other threads about the same exact issue. Of course, you acted in true Quotezilla-Pixel-Pirate-tagert form and totally disrupted any semblance of conversation if people didnt understand your idea, or were in disagreement with you.

Why do you have this insatiable need to placate others for your amusement? Do you think you are entertaining? If so, to whom? I think you truly have an inflated view of yourself. Notice I call you "tagert," while you call yourself "TAGERT?" One is an inflated self-view, the other more aligned with the truth.

Well, to say the least, after all of your typical rhetoric, I stopped bothering to read anything you posted from then on, until you posted something directly at/to me (When I saw my name as I scanned through one of the threads).

So alright, back on thought.. you noticed there was no external 3d graphic in the picture. Cudos for you. We will all erect statues in commemoration of your observation talents! (That's sarcasm in case you don't get it)

But do you believe your observation excuses you from the tone and manner in which you always attempt to vilify others in this forum? You have a simple, but severe personal flaw, and that flaw is that you have no idea how to communicate your ideas in an effective manner. No doubt, you have some good things to say from time to time, but a reader has to be keen to cut through your personal agendas and chest-beatings to find it.

Simply put, you are irritating and highly disliked by many members of this community. You may pretend that you dont care, and in fact you may not, but what you fail to realize is that your entire approach is what fails you. It turns your prospective audience off immediately when you, tagert, enters the discussion. You have some sort of insatiable desire to talk down to people. Here is a clue for you, you will never be able to elevate yourself by simply putting others down. And furthermore, the method you insist on using in this forum is the sole reason that you are not taken seriously, even when you possess a valid point. If your thoughts lack the merit to stand on their own, then they are merit-less. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif BUT, there may still be hope for you. Flaws like this are taught and learned at a young age. It is never too late to re-learn something, but one must possess a desire to rectify a short-coming.

I seriously doubt that you will do a thing about any of this, as it appears your character flaw is too far deep-rooted to be fixed, but it can be done! We can only hope...

At last, this is my final word to you on the topic of 6DOF. Until Oleg either releases the code of IL2 (Which is highly unlikely) then all your swashbuckling is moot. Only he or his company can change things, and all the whining in the world will not a change make. Comprendo? In this case, the squeaky wheel does not get the grease.

But is there another approach to get Oleg to recognize the validity of this new aspect for the game series? Perhaps, but neither you, nor I are in a position to change Oleg's opinion.

So how can we do this?

As I said before, find some people like Gibbage or Jippo (Because they are the only two that come to mind right now) and see if there is a viable work-around for the issue that would fit into Oleg's realm of what is, and is not acceptable. Limited head lean was a good example of a possible work around, but knowing whether or not this could be implemented is beyond me, and probably beyond you. But please, stop wasting your time, and everyone else's here crying and playing misdirection Quotezilla Pixel Pirate. You will get a lot more accomplished if you follow my suggestion, and probably a great deal more support and respect for it as well.

This is the last post in which I will demean myself with a reply to you. You are totally mistaken if you think that I do not want 6DOF for this sim. Any viable solution would be welcomed, but that solution will never be reached as long as you continue to lecture people or attempt to placate them for your amusement. A typical example of this was the original thread. It was your attitude that got the thing locked. No one else here to blame but good ole' tagert. Get it yet???

Your ideas on 6DOF have merit, your presentation of those ideas is seriously wanting.

TAGERT.
12-16-2004, 05:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
tagert, what is it exactly that you think I am wrong about? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>6DOF

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
I was wrong about the 3d art not included in Gibbage's picture. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Which is basic to the understanding of 6DOF

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
Fine, I admit that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>LOL! As if you had a choice?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
Here, however, is the reason I missed it... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Why is it nobody can take responsibly for their actions these days? What happen to the MEN that could stand up and admit they made a mistake and were wrong? Why do boys like you feel the need to justify their reasons and blame other people for their mistakes?
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
If you go back and review the thread that started all of this, you will notice that you didn't say a thing about the issue until the 6th (sixth) page of the thread. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>If you go back and review the thread that started all of this, you will.. well.. maybe not you.. but most people would realize that I didn't say a thing about the *issue* because it wasn't until then that I realized that MOST of these people like you DIDN'T REALISE that it was just the cockpit art.. I made the mistake of ASSUMING that anyone who would chime in on the 6DOF subject would AT LEAST have a BASIC understanding of it before doing so. Which was not the case for you. Next time I wont give you so much credit, and explain the basics sooner than I did and not assumed you understood the basics.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
By then you had started or were part of several other threads about the same exact issue. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>But, also note, IN THAT THREAD I had only replied ONCE prior to that.. i.e. ONCE in six pages.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
Of course, you acted in true Quotezilla-Pixel-Pirate-tagert form and totally disrupted any semblance of conversation if people didn't understand your idea, or were in disagreement with you.

Why do you have this insatiable need to placate others for your amusement? Do you think you are entertaining? If so, to whom? I think you truly have an inflated view of yourself. Notice I call you "tagert," while you call yourself "TAGERT?" One is an inflated self-view, the other more aligned with the truth.

Well, to say the least, after all of your typical rhetoric, I stopped bothering to read anything you posted from then on, until you posted something directly at/to me (When I saw my name as I scanned through one of the threads). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Classic example of "He made me do it" Why oh why are there so few men these days that can admit they were wrong? Why the need to blame others for their mistakes?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
So alright, back on thought.. you noticed there was no external 3d graphic in the picture. Cudos for you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Didn't take a rocket scientist to *SEE* what was not there! Granted, I made the mistake of assuming that anyone who could be so admittely opposed to something would have a basic understanding of it.. Sorry.. It wont happen again. I will make sure to spell out the basic to you in any future posts that your involved in. Deal?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
We will all erect statues in commemoration of your observation talents! (That's sarcasm in case you don't get it) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I get more about you than you seem to realize!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
But do you believe your observation excuses you from the tone and manner in which you always attempt to vilify others in this forum? You have a simple, but severe personal flaw, and that flaw is that you have no idea how to communicate your ideas in an effective manner. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Another example.. Will I ever get to the part where you say "I'm sorry, I was wrong!" I doubt it.. Because it takes a big man to admit he made a mistake.. A small man finds ways to blame others for *his* actions. Shoe fit?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
No doubt, you have some good things to say from time to time, but a reader has to be keen to cut through your personal agendas and chest-beatings to find it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Especially the reader that is trying hard to drive his adjenda.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
Simply put, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>As if you had a choice!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
you are irritating and highly disliked by many members of this community. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Geee.. I feel so empty inside.. What will I do? The cluless dolts like Fehler of this wold don't like me.. How will I ever continue.. Whoas me Whoas me!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
You may pretend that you don't care, and in fact you may not, but what you fail to realize is that your entire approach is what fails you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Not in this case.. Because from the get go I was saying some people just don't understand what it is they are talking about.. And you proved it big time!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
It turns your prospective audience off immediately when you, tagert, enters the discussion. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Now if I could just get you and yours to the point that they don't bother to post a reply!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
You have some sort of insatiable desire to talk down to people. Here is a clue for you, you will never be able to elevate yourself by simply putting others down. And furthermore, the method you insist on using in this forum is the sole reason that you are not taken seriously, even when you possess a valid point. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So let me see if I understand you correctly.. If I were to say how smart you are.. but follow it with something like.. Oh.. like "(That's sarcasm in case you don't get it)" would that be a good example of an insatiable desire to talk down to people? By the way.. do those words sound familiar? If not, scroll up a bit. Some self righteous guy with a halo just said them a few lines ago.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
If your thoughts lack the merit to stand on their own, then they are merit-less. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif BUT, there may still be hope for you. Flaws like this are taught and learned at a young age. It is never too late to re-learn something, but one must possess a desire to rectify a short-coming. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>And there is hope for you too.. Someday when you grow up and become a man you might be able to take responsibility for your actions.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
I seriously doubt that you will do a thing about any of this, as it appears your character flaw is too far deep-rooted to be fixed, but it can be done! We can only hope... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>As i seriously doubt any amount of time will help you on your jonery to become a man.. But I wish you luck.. In that it would help me more than you in that I would have one less guy to baby sit around here and explane the basics to

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
At last, this is my final word to you on the topic of 6DOF. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Promise? I doubt it, in that if your not man enough to take responsibly for your actions, your probably not man enough to keep your word!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
Until Oleg either releases the code of IL2 (Which is highly unlikely) then all your swashbuckling is moot. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You still don't understand 6DOf.. please refrain from GUESSING what is needed.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
Only he or his company can change things, and all the whining in the world will not a change make. Comprendo? In this case, the squeaky wheel does not get the grease. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>LOL! you go girl!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
But is there another approach to get Oleg to recognize the validity of this new aspect for the game series? Perhaps, but neither you, nor I are in a position to change Oleg's opinion. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>In light of you struggling with the basics.. One thing for sure.. it wont be you!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
So how can we do this?

As I said before, find some people like Gibbage or Jippo (Because they are the only two that come to mind right now) and see if there is a viable work-around for the issue that would fit into Oleg's realm of what is, and is not acceptable. Limited head lean was a good example of a possible work around, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes it is, thank you.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
but knowing whether or not this could be implemented is beyond me, and probably beyond you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Definitely you.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
But please, stop wasting your time, and everyone else's here crying and playing misdirection Quotezilla Pixel Pirate. You will get a lot more accomplished if you follow my suggestion, and probably a great deal more support and respect for it as well. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>roger, will do, but only if you tell that guy standing behind you with the gun to your head to stop forcing you to say things you don't want to say.. especially the things your not willing to take responsibly for saying!!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
This is the last post in which I will demean myself with a reply to you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>time will tell.. In light of you making such a fool of yourself I'm sure you will bow out soon

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
You are totally mistaken if you think that I do not want 6DOF for this sim. Any viable solution would be welcomed, but that solution will never be reached as long as you continue to lecture people or attempt to placate them for your amusement. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>And it surly wont be reached as long as clueless dolts chime in half cocked thinking they have it all figured out.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
A typical example of this was the original thread. It was your attitude that got the thing locked. No one else here to blame but good ole' tagert. Get it yet??? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes I get it.. your not responsible for anything you do.. it is all my fault.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
Your ideas on 6DOF have merit, your presentation of those ideas is seriously wanting. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>And you seem to be operating under the false impression that I care what some clueless dolt thinks about my merit and or presentations.

BuzzU
12-16-2004, 08:08 PM
Tagert,

I got it all in installed, and have been using it in FS2004. It's way better than you can imagine.

You can really whine now.

BaldieJr
12-16-2004, 08:12 PM
I heard something about the patch and 6dof but I don't like to spread rumors.

TheGozr
12-16-2004, 08:41 PM
Would be great to have at list a 30 % movement or even 20 % and better one foward and back just to feel free and will not get into the graphics glich..

TAGERT.
12-16-2004, 08:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
Tagert,

I got it all in installed, and have been using it in FS2004. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>NICE!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
It's way better than you can imagine. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I doubt it! In that *this* 6DOF aka ability to lean has been something I have been talking about for years now.. I dream in 6DOF! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
You can really whine now. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Now? As if I havent? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

TAGERT.
12-16-2004, 08:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BaldieJr:
I heard something about the patch and 6dof but I don't like to spread rumors. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Stop pullin my leg or Ill start some DeviceLink enabled on all servers rumors! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

TAGERT.
12-16-2004, 08:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheGozr:
Would be great to have at list a 30 % movement or even 20 % and better one foward and back just to feel free and will not get into the graphics glich.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Exactally!

PriK
12-16-2004, 09:37 PM
I just wanted to point a couple things out that might be relevent to the discussion:

1) I might be wrong about this but I'm pretty sure I'm not: When looking out of IL2's cockpits the exterior parts of the aircraft are actually [b]part of the cockpit model[/i] and not a view of the separate external model. I don't believe you see both models at the same time but rather the exterior parts are added to make the view out seem like the whole plane is there when it really isn't.

I know this doesn't seem to help our 'cause' but I still don't find this a major factor or any significant advantage when talking about a limited view system.

2) In FS2004 the effect is nothing short of amazing and transformational as even Buzz (a whiner hater of note http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) can now attest to. There are missing exterior pieces there as well and in fact you can poke your head through the seats, roof and sides of the cockpit with the current limitations in most planes!

The thing is this is hardly a problem and not even close to a distraction as much as you might think for never having tried it. The reason is you just don't tend to do these things unless you're just messing around and everything inside the cockpit is pretty much there even from most extreme angles.

IL2 with a limited view imho as someone who has yet to see a messed up screenshot from one of these angles, can only try to explain this by relating to you that the pros far outweigh the cons by a great stretch. It's akin to complaining to Oleg that you can't fly the 109 because there's an extra non-historic bolt on one of the struts.

Also, you would not see any distracting "tearing" and at worst probably the edge poly and texture of a gunsight or something.

I may be proven wrong and will willingly concede the point if reasonable evidence is shown.

3) Discussing possibilities and potential solutions is not whining! Let's try not to get too personal unless it's part of one of your agenda's to inflame enough threads to get them killed for selfish reasons. When Oleg gets the time or the inclination to respond to us about these other possibilities that will be fine. If he doesn't, that's fine too. This thing is still new and nobody expects anything, we're just asking for some extra consideration for something that can be of use to everybody.

On a side note there are a couple other games with support on the way from what I hear that are older than the IL2 series such as Mig Alley and I think Battle of Britain (not Oleg's). There's a few more classics that are in the works too but I don't want to get ahead of myself. Nothing is firm on these but progress is being made and I suspect it won't be too long. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BaldieJr
12-16-2004, 09:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TAGERT.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BaldieJr:
I heard something about the patch and 6dof but I don't like to spread rumors. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Stop pullin my leg or Ill start some DeviceLink enabled on all servers rumors! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whine-fuel: 180 octane! (http://www.hi-techredneck.org/Movie.wmv)

TAGERT.
12-16-2004, 11:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BaldieJr:
http://www.hi-techredneck.org/Movie.wmv <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Very cool.. are those stepper motors or dc torq?

TAGERT.
12-16-2004, 11:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PriK:
I just wanted to point a couple things out that might be relevent to the discussion:

1) I might be wrong about this but I'm pretty sure I'm not: When looking out of IL2's cockpits the exterior parts of the aircraft are actually [b]part of the cockpit model[/i] and not a view of the separate external model. I don't believe you see both models at the same time but rather the exterior _parts_ are added to make the view out seem like the whole plane is there when it really isn't. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Actully it is the exterior 3D model you see from the 3D cockpit.. This came up back during the inital release of the P38. In the inital release there was something in the mirror that was blocking your view to the rear.. A small gray rectangular thing.. turns out it was the 3D exterior mirror! See initally they had the P38 cockpit art situated too far foward relitve to the 3D exterior art. Thus you could see the 3D exterior mirror housing in the 3D cockpit mirror when looking back.

TheGozr
12-17-2004, 12:29 AM
Can we have at list a minimum like say 20 % of movement to make up for it....