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ploughman
04-06-2005, 02:03 AM
I was just watching the news and there was a story where a reported went in search of the remaining astronauts who'd walked on the Moon. It struck me that all that happenned over thirty years ago, I was a month old when Neil Armstrong first stepped from the Eagle on to lunar soil. At the same time UK and French engineers were building the first supersonic transport, now thirty years later Concorde's retired,scheduled airline flight is once again purely sub-sonic and the Apollo astronauts are moving on to a different heaven...somebody please, tell me there are still some heroic endeavours taking place in aerospace...

ploughman
04-06-2005, 02:03 AM
I was just watching the news and there was a story where a reported went in search of the remaining astronauts who'd walked on the Moon. It struck me that all that happenned over thirty years ago, I was a month old when Neil Armstrong first stepped from the Eagle on to lunar soil. At the same time UK and French engineers were building the first supersonic transport, now thirty years later Concorde's retired,scheduled airline flight is once again purely sub-sonic and the Apollo astronauts are moving on to a different heaven...somebody please, tell me there are still some heroic endeavours taking place in aerospace...

arcadeace
04-06-2005, 02:56 AM
To my knowledge even landing men on the moon was not motivated for science as much as national prestige. Space exploration now requires strict financial considerations for more practical results. I think manned flight and exploration has reached limits in which remote vehicles will increasingly take over. The Hubble is a great example of a remote vehicle paying off. Increasingly, private enterprise will play a role in manned vehicles. Steve Fossett's non-stop flight around the world without refueling was a great achievement. And a few years ago a couple of guys from Europe went around the world in a hot air balloon http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Saunders1953
04-06-2005, 08:20 AM
Nowadays there are no more heroes it seems, only Posers, of which prime time TV, magazines, newspapers and radio have an unfortunate glut.

fherathras
04-06-2005, 08:25 AM
just wait for the next big war.



then we`l get alot of heroes

fireman196988
04-06-2005, 09:28 AM
fherathras,

I kinda disagree with your statement. I believe there are quite a few heros today if you have ties to certain communities. I'm a firefighter and ex-military and I know of quite a few heros in recent times. You have to know where to look.

With the way we get information today (internet) and the plethora of television channels, no one source garners a majority of people. I mean 20 years ago we had nowhere near the variety of TV channels that we do today and as such a large number of people were viewing the same take on any one event and could relate.

Society, especially American society, is very segmented and the generation gaps are even more pronounced than in the past unless those generations are involved in the same cliche <sp> or have similar intrests, ie computer flight sims.

I'm going to leave the political issues alone although they will alter a person's viepoint of who is considered a hero.

It's not that we don't have any heros today it's just that either; we don't know where to look or the majority of people are not informed via the same source and the inheirent prejudices.

Happy Glocking,

Fireman

Chuck_Older
04-06-2005, 10:14 AM
Depends on what you mean as a "hero"

More and more, a "hero" is someone who is monetarily successful.

My living hero is Raymond Bourque, NHL hall of fame defenseman. Incredibly successful in any endeavour he undertakes. Incredibly talented athlete, humble human being, good father, great role model and leader. Not a single scandal associated with his playing professional sports- how many pro athletes that are or were superstars can say THAT? Not too many. Bourque was a superstar of the first order. Strength, stamina, smarts, leadership, talent, skill. He had it all as a player, and that ability didn't come from playing hockey, it's obvious that it came from who he is.

My Dead heroes are Bruce Lee and Jimmy Clark. Both died at 32 years of age. I turned 33 last summer. It was odd thinking that two of my heroes died at the age I was currently at

fireman196988
04-06-2005, 11:25 AM
How about SFC Paul Smith.

I believe he was an 12b (combat engineer) serving with the 3rd ID. I remember reading the AAR awhile back. He died defending his troopers when they stumbled onto an enemy platoon in a complex at Baghdad International Airport. He was just awarded Medal of Honor posthumously. His 11 year old son accepted it from President Bush.

Sorry chuck_older, but when I think of a hero I think of someone who has risked their life and often times sacrificed it. Maybe it's just semantics but your examples bring to my mind idols or mentors.

Happy Glocking,

Fireman

Monson74
04-06-2005, 12:55 PM
What was it a wise man said - a hero is just a lucky fool - or something like that? What about all the 'ordinary' people who go to school, graduate, work hard every day, raise their children & raise their voice for justice? Do you have to get on the news to be a hero? I think I know a lot of heroes but they'll never be known by the masses because they ARE the masses like most people. A hero is someone doing the best he/she can to be an honest & decent human being.

huggy87
04-06-2005, 01:04 PM
Hero is one of the most overused words today. The media wants to call everyone a hero nowadays. Every military member, every firefighter, every ambulance driver etc. is now labeled a hero regardless of the actions they may or may not have performed. Heck, my 2 year old watches a disney show every day called the "higgly town heroes". Last one I saw had the pizza delivery guy as a hero. The frickin pizza guy.

To me, real heroes are anyone who exhibits selfless bravery or determination. It could be the old lady who fights off a mugger, the surgeon who spends 12 hours trying to fix someone who by all accounts is unsalvageable, and countless other everyday examples. Simply wearing a uniform does not make one a hero.

Chuck_Older
04-06-2005, 01:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fireman196988:
How about SFC Paul Smith.

I believe he was an 12b (combat engineer) serving with the 3rd ID. I remember reading the AAR awhile back. He died defending his troopers when they stumbled onto an enemy platoon in a complex at Baghdad International Airport. He was just awarded Medal of Honor posthumously. His 11 year old son accepted it from President Bush.

Sorry chuck_older, but when I think of a hero I think of someone who has risked their life and often times sacrificed it. Maybe it's just semantics but your examples bring to my mind idols or mentors.

Happy Glocking,

Fireman <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, Sgt Smith ( a veteran of the first Gulf War) was tasked with turning an area at the airport into a holding cage for detainees, when approximately 100 armed bad guys turned up.

He called up a Bradley and an M113 showed up too, but as I remember it, the M113 withdrew, and the bradley Commander, who was at the MG mount, was hit and the only heavy weapon was out of action. So Smith manned the MG, and was very exposed. He was fatally hit just at about the same time friendly troops destroyed an enemy-held tower that was concentrating fire on Smith

Behind Smith was a medic station and an HQ section, which would have been practically undefended had he not offered furious and timely resistance

His widow decided that their son should accept Smith's Medal of Honor.


I think you have been a little thrown off because of the occupation of one of my personal heroes. Sports is not the reason Bourque is a hero of mine. If you re-read that, you'll see that his sporting talent is an aside- it's his character and integrity that makes him a hero of mine- not his on-ice acheivement.

Clark is one of my heroes partially because of the fact that he was one of those people afflicted with a glorious madness to risk their lives in motorsport. 40% of all his contemporaries dies behind the wheel, as did the man himself. He was involved in a very serious accident which included the deaths of spectators and another driver easrly in his career. He saw friends and team-mates die as part of his job.

That's courage, to me- to know that you could die at any time, and simply keep on going, because that's your passion, or your duty, or what have you- same character trait

But, as you can probably tell, I think there is a clear distinction of a "Hero" in the classical sense of Audie Murphy, Alvin York, John Paul Jones, Raphael Semmes, John Basilone, etc, etc, and what is a 'personal hero'

I defintely do not think someone's sport acheivement alone qualifies anyone as a Hero. Barry Bonds springs to mind

NorrisMcWhirter
04-06-2005, 02:09 PM
Monson is entirely right....there are plenty of heroes around who take a very difficult path through life, not always of their own doing, and make the best of it...day after day after day after day after day...etc..and not just for a fleeting moment.

Of course, if you want heroes in the 'accepted' sense, you have to have a "decent war" (not one against a tin-pot regime) or at least some kind of ideological conflict that really drives people.

Unforunately a lot of people equate celebrity with heroism these days which is bad. Who cares if you single-handedly dragged your pals out of a burning tank...or that you walk 25 miles a day just to fetch food and water for your family when appearing on a reality show can set you up for life, instead?

Norris

fireman196988
04-06-2005, 03:20 PM
Monsoon, judging by your definition I'd be considered a hero and there is no way in hell I'd go for that. That type of definition is what sets off huggy87. Being an honest and good person doing the best they can as well as helping out their fellow man should be considered the baseline for being considered a human being. Unfortunately in the real world it's not.

I agree with you huggy87 that every firefighter, soldier, marine, seaman, airman, ambulance driver, and cop should not be considered heros just for being who they are or what job they are performing. But, and that's a big but, a person makes a conscious decision to try and help another man under conditions of almost certain death or dismemberment moves beyond doing their "job" into "hero" status in my book.

For example, let's say I go into a fully engulfed house to rescue a trapped child. No big deal in my mind. It's my job and it's what I've been trained to do. Now, same action but performed by a passerby, that would be heroic. That's the difference to me.

Norris I don't even know where to begin with your statement. It is wrong on so many levels. "Decent" war, "tin-pot" regime. What are you smoking? There is no such thing as a "decent" war. War is war. It is a vile, dirty, disgusting, and violent act. You are just as dead whether you were killed by a "tin-pot" regime or a non "tin-pot" regime. Your last statement confuses the hell out of me, I'm not even going to try and decipher what you were thinking.

Chuck_Older, again I think you an I are in agreement. Just a matter of terminolgy. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BTW, I believe it was an A.C.E. and a m113 and the m113 withdrew. A Bradley mounts a 25mm chain gun as well as a coaxial MG in a turret and the crew can remain under armor to operate the weapons. The A.C.E. (armoured combat engineer) as well as the m113 apc both require the crew to be exposed to fire the mounted M2 .50 cal HMG. I'm trying to recall the incident from the AAR I read over a year and a half ago.

Happy Glocking,

Fireman

ps-When I say airman or seaman I also mean women as well. I wasn't trying to slight any gender.

huggy87
04-06-2005, 04:58 PM
Fireman,
We are almost in full agreement. However, job or not, you would be a hero in my book for rushing into a burning building to save another. I could see how most firemen would humbly consider it "just part of the job". I guess it is a matter of perception, really.

Still you will find many more fireman, soldiers, cops and others who have done heroic acts than the common joe on the street. The jobs themselves put them in those situations. My point was merely that a job title alone does not make one a hero.

NorrisMcWhirter
04-06-2005, 05:49 PM
You might have noticed the quotes around "decent war"....or not, as it would appear.

No war is, indeed, decent...HENCE the quotes...and it should be avoided at all costs.

Norris

Fliegeroffizier
04-06-2005, 06:51 PM
Here's everything you want to knwo about the action of Sgt Smith on April 4 2003
http://www.army.mil/medalofhonor/citation/index.html

firesoldier845
04-06-2005, 09:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fireman196988:
fherathras,

I kinda disagree with your statement. I believe there are quite a few heros today if you have ties to certain communities. I'm a firefighter and ex-military and I know of quite a few heros in recent times. You have to know where to look.

Fireman <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey fireman, I'm also a firefighter and play Lock-ON, and IL2 and a game called WWII Online. It's always cool to meet other firefighters that are into flight sims.

There is a group of firefighters that play IL2 and WWII Online. We belong to a squad called lafayettefederation.

Check out are website - lafayettefederation.com

cheers
firesoldier845

Waldo.Pepper
04-06-2005, 11:02 PM
Aerospace hero?

Steve Fossett last month - remember?

ploughman
04-07-2005, 01:30 AM
Yeah, I remember. Good show. What I particularily like about the Burt Rotan ventures is that most of the pilots are significantly older than I am.

How about these (http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/shuttle/) people. The crew STS-114, flying in a machine where going on past perfomance there's about a 1 in 50 chance it'll kill you. Those are significantly worse odds than surviving a successfull ascent of Everest yet the crews are fighting each other to get the chance to fly.

Monson74
04-07-2005, 05:03 AM
Well, it's just that you have to be pretty lucky to become a 'hero' - you have to be on the right spot at the right time & very few people have those privileges. A F1-driver doesn't qualify for heroism by my definition just because he puts his own (& other's!) life in danger - it's just a quest for glory - if you want the ultimate ride... No - he'd be a hero if he sold his gear & gave the money away to those who might need them better. A person who by coincidence happens to be in a dangerous situation & saves the day is very often recognized as a hero - please forgive me but I think he just had a great chance to prove himself & do what is right & he was lucky to have that chance. Name me a person who will at all times pick up the glove that life threw down at his feet & I will call him a hero. You mentioned a war hero - I think a true hero is one who work hard every day (on any level) to prevent wars. A firefighter, policeman, paramedic or any other person working for the safety of our lives? Yes they are heroes but just don't forget all those who work hard to back them up & who will never be credited for saving lives.

blakduk
04-07-2005, 07:44 PM
'Hero' i agree is a very overused term in the media today, especially when its used as a synonym for stardom.
A hero is merely a brave person who is recognised as such by those who witness his actions. The really awesome guys are the ones who come back from a war having been heroic, but feel no need to draw attention to themselves and dont regret that lack of recognition.
In Oz we have an organisation called the RSL (returned services league) which has a large proportion of old diggers who use it as a platform for expressing their conservative political agenda. A great number of veterans i know would/will have nothing to do with it- they went to war and quickly lost their thirst for all the glory b***sh*t along the way.
Our society has also changed and whereas once we extolled the virtues of the recklessly brave, now many people will immediately challenge such people as simply being reckless.

BaldieJr
04-07-2005, 08:21 PM
I am my hero.