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View Full Version : J-Aircraft team Arrested in Solomons



SkyChimp
12-12-2007, 05:00 PM
Got an email alerting me to this thread. Wuddya think?

http://www.j-aircraft.org/smf/index.php?topic=4857.msg34622#msg34622

Korolov1986
12-12-2007, 06:57 PM
My first thought was... Is this for real?

Seriously, what the heck is going on down there? Sounds like a serious abuse of power. Hope these guys make it out OK.

SkyChimp
12-12-2007, 07:16 PM
The Solomons are being looted. For Christ sake, those waters are War Graves. I've seen photos of recreational divers swimming to the surface with armloads of Japanese skulls. Salvage companies loot these areas. Who the hell do they think they are? Is the gov't of the Solomans selling the remains of US and Japanese equipment? It's nuts. Nothing but a bunch of damned looters.

jarink
12-12-2007, 07:34 PM
I had read a while back about someone (don't remember if it was the same group) that was having problems getting local gov't approval to remove a B-17E that had crashed somewhere in the Solomons...sounded like palms felt they were in need of grease.

I doubt that anything serious will happen to them, but I would also not be amazed if they at least get barred from entering the country again until some sort of fine or "fee" is paid first.

LEBillfish
12-12-2007, 07:36 PM
Well it's a little more then that....and not so dramatic "sadly" as that would make press.

Received the same e-mail from J.Lansdale of www.j-aircraft.com (http://www.j-aircraft.com) , in actuallity Justin Taylan runs a site many of us know well http://pacificwrecks.com/ (wondered why he's not replied to my emails recently)....Anyway, he besides being a historian of sorts also visits and finds old pacific war wrecks. These relics often hold key bits of information lost....Paint colors, equipment specs, and a bazillion other points.

What is happening is, these relics are fading fast simply due to decay. In other cases, "tourist scavengers" might take a piece here or there, private collectors might salvage the entire item, yet worst of all scrap metal dealers will take the whole thing generating no documentation and simply scrap it out for what they'll make from the value of say aluminum or steel.

Now you might say "how terrible! These are items that need to be preserved where they are forever"......Well, in our own countries how many points of history have been paved over and melted down. Now that doesn't make it right, yet we're often asking others to do what we don't...........Add to that for people struggling to survive themselves in a modern world, this is income that feeds their families. Now granted, a "few" make a living taking tourists to wrecks, yet that leaves many out cold in places where making a "living" in todays world is a virtual impossibility to our standards.

Right or wrong of that for debate elsewhere..........Point of this thread Justin and the other three with him.

My ""guess"" is that they went somewhere to poke about a bit knowing of some wrecks there, did indeed try to perform all the proper steps to gaining access to the islands (and visiting/immigration to many of these can be VERY difficult requiring permission from tribal elders/local governments and so on)....Yet along the way ran into a salvage opperation....Following proper steps never the less making a fuss over the salvage, and though doing the right thing, may have told the wrong folks (meaning the authorities there, as they may very well have given the salvagers permission (expecting their share)).

They know Justin has contacts, and could turn this into a big deal.....Hence...what the news flashes are posting, most likely EXACTLY what the authorities wanted to avoid.

Now that's all guessing.......However, how they've been held and for how long rather extreme.....The 12th supposed to be the date set for the trial, he's facing 5 yr's. for "illegally" entering the country.

LEBillfish
12-13-2007, 11:23 PM
You'll note to the left side bar of the defensefund website there are links to trial updates...... http://taylandefensefund.org/jt/

TheGozr
12-13-2007, 11:35 PM
I'm not surprised..

Ratsack
12-14-2007, 01:31 AM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Well it's a little more then that....and not so dramatic "sadly" as that would make press.

Received the same e-mail from J.Lansdale of www.j-aircraft.com (http://www.j-aircraft.com) , in actuallity Justin Taylan runs a site many of us know well http://pacificwrecks.com/ (wondered why he's not replied to my emails recently)....Anyway, he besides being a historian of sorts also visits and finds old pacific war wrecks. These relics often hold key bits of information lost....Paint colors, equipment specs, and a bazillion other points.

What is happening is, these relics are fading fast simply due to decay. In other cases, "tourist scavengers" might take a piece here or there, private collectors might salvage the entire item, yet worst of all scrap metal dealers will take the whole thing generating no documentation and simply scrap it out for what they'll make from the value of say aluminum or steel.

Now you might say "how terrible! These are items that need to be preserved where they are forever"......Well, in our own countries how many points of history have been paved over and melted down. Now that doesn't make it right, yet we're often asking others to do what we don't...........Add to that for people struggling to survive themselves in a modern world, this is income that feeds their families. Now granted, a "few" make a living taking tourists to wrecks, yet that leaves many out cold in places where making a "living" in todays world is a virtual impossibility to our standards.

Right or wrong of that for debate elsewhere..........Point of this thread Justin and the other three with him.

My ""guess"" is that they went somewhere to poke about a bit knowing of some wrecks there, did indeed try to perform all the proper steps to gaining access to the islands (and visiting/immigration to many of these can be VERY difficult requiring permission from tribal elders/local governments and so on)....Yet along the way ran into a salvage opperation....Following proper steps never the less making a fuss over the salvage, and though doing the right thing, may have told the wrong folks (meaning the authorities there, as they may very well have given the salvagers permission (expecting their share)).

They know Justin has contacts, and could turn this into a big deal.....Hence...what the news flashes are posting, most likely EXACTLY what the authorities wanted to avoid.

Now that's all guessing.......However, how they've been held and for how long rather extreme.....The 12th supposed to be the date set for the trial, he's facing 5 yr's. for "illegally" entering the country.

Well said, Billfish. While these things might be graves, they're hard cash to the locals, who are on the bones of their collective arse.

"Let's see, my family and I can starve, or go into the hills as bandits, or go and dig up some crappy old wrecks from a war that the Nipponese and Americans fought over my land sixty years ago. Hmmm..."

Sensitivity? Get real.

In addition, the Solomon Islands is another of the Pacific rim countries that has never quite managed to walk the walk regarding the institutions of democracy that most of us take for granted. Civil war and endemic corruption don't make for good administration.

Good luck to Taylan and his mates. I hope they get out ok. But the indignation over desecration of war graves you can keep. That is unless you want to go to the Solomons and organise a LEASE of the sites from them and then pay for the erection of suitable memorials and then pay for their upkeep. It means jack to the people of the Solomons, I'm afraid.

cheers,
Ratsack

SkyChimp
12-14-2007, 08:03 PM
I'm not talking about natives who sell scrap for food-money. I'm talking about tourists and salvage companies that take these things as treasures to be sold for profit.

Billy_DeLyon
12-14-2007, 11:00 PM
I live in a mountainous area and like to travel on foot in the backcountry. Over the years I have happened across a couple of old plane wrecks. It's a powerful experience, and a solemn occasion. These are the final resting places of some unfortunate people, people who died before their time. I would not dream of disturbing such sites.

However... That's the emotional/spiritual reaction. Looking at it objectively, I must say that wherever they are, I doubt the people who perished in those wrecks care what is happening to the rusted metal that remains of them now. Their meaning resides only in the living. We can ascribe holy meaning to them, we can melt them down for scrap and sell them for a paycheck, we can restore them and put them in a museum, we can let them disintegrate and return to the earth in peace (my preference)... As always, we all act in our own self-interest. The dead rest in peace.

LEBillfish
12-14-2007, 11:18 PM
Originally posted by SkyChimp:
I'm not talking about natives who sell scrap for food-money. I'm talking about tourists and salvage companies that take these things as treasures to be sold for profit.

I agree, and was not going to debate it......Tourists IMLTHO the worst as they should have the most respect....The salvage companies a close second as it is simply for profit.

Trouble is though, just as Bob tour Guide makes his $$$ by taking you there, Tommy government official makes his by having his palm greased. However, as remote and backwater as it seems to us these places for the most part nowadays are not as backward as we'd like to believe.

Og sure, they may have a poorer economy, utilities and infrastructure, yet for all intensive purposes they're just as 21st centuray as we are (sadly as I'd run away to there if not).

SO what you often will find (not always)....These sites give way to progress for right or wrong, and for many of these places it was not even really their war, just one invader after another fighting over their land. So when it comes to that new tourist hotel that employs many in many ways, or saving a crumpled up tail section from a C47 that carried MacArthur's dirty underwear, guess who wins....Cause after all....

No ticky....No laundry http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

In the end what do you do?....and as much as we'd like to say....Just as the Allies and Japanese wrongly fought over it then, who are we to tell them now?......Personally?......It's maybe time to let historians, mark, map, document and salvage these spots...as nature alone is causing the inconsequential history of man to vanish http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


P.S. to Ratsack....this is from the Solomon's newspapers......
http://www.solomonstarnews.com/?q=node/7417
http://www.solomontimes.com/news.aspx?nwID=967
http://www.solomonstarnews.com/?q=node/16038

The people as I said not quite as savage as we'd like to imagine.

Ratsack
12-15-2007, 12:18 AM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
...
The people as I said not quite as savage as we'd like to imagine.

Please don't misunderstand, I don't and didn't mean that they're savages. What I said is that they have other priorities, and the rule of law is not what it should be there. It is only just returning, and then in an incomplete way.

Some colleagues of mine were involved in the recent Australian mission to the Solomons, sent to put a force between the warring parties, disarm the bandits, and reestablish law and order. The job is only partially finished.

Unfortunately the Solomons is not alone in being less stable than we might wish. Fiji and Papua New Guinea have some similar problems, although on different scales.

cheers,
Ratsack

LEBillfish
12-15-2007, 12:30 AM
Originally posted by Ratsack:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
...
The people as I said not quite as savage as we'd like to imagine.

Please don't misunderstand, I don't and didn't mean that they're savages. What I said is that they have other priorities, and the rule of law is not what it should be there. It is only just returning, and then in an incomplete way.

Some colleagues of mine were involved in the recent Australian mission to the Solomons, sent to put a force between the warring parties, disarm the bandits, and reestablish law and order. The job is only partially finished.

Unfortunately the Solomons is not alone in being less stable than we might wish. Fiji and Papua New Guinea have some similar problems, although on different scales.

cheers,
Ratsack </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

understood and did before...."My" term "savage" said as that is how most folks even to this day view area's such as these....(I was even asked once when I said I was going back to the amazon to fish "wasn't I afraid of the head hunters there".....).

The world has changed a LOT in 30 years......Sadly the most advanced nations have not http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Heavy_Weather
12-15-2007, 08:45 AM
Originally posted by Billy_DeLyon:
I live in a mountainous area and like to travel on foot in the backcountry. Over the years I have happened across a couple of old plane wrecks. It's a powerful experience, and a solemn occasion. These are the final resting places of some unfortunate people, people who died before their time. I would not dream of disturbing such sites.

However... That's the emotional/spiritual reaction. Looking at it objectively, I must say that wherever they are, I doubt the people who perished in those wrecks care what is happening to the rusted metal that remains of them now. Their meaning resides only in the living. We can ascribe holy meaning to them, we can melt them down for scrap and sell them for a paycheck, we can restore them and put them in a museum, we can let them disintegrate and return to the earth in peace (my preference)... As always, we all act in our own self-interest. The dead rest in peace.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

LEBillfish
12-15-2007, 12:20 PM
NPR radio interview:

http://www.npr.org/templates/player/mediaPlayer.html?ac...=17245967&m=17245943 (http://www.npr.org/templates/player/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=17245967&m=17245943)

LEBillfish
12-17-2007, 09:27 AM
Well the verdict is in and can be found here with the events of the trial.....

http://taylandefensefund.org/jt/

Roughly, vs. the three years they faced they were hit with a $108.00 fine.....However, Justin states at the end of the page...

"We have fourteen days to appeal to the High Court if we wish to pursue this case. I'm not sure this matter is settled."

Well he may not be sure, yet principles have sent many an honest man to prison.......Don't think I'd argue this one.

Personally, and just my guess.....The long delay with a minimal fine at the end makes me venture, "the 6 Japanese planes are long gone though against the law to take them". Have seen this before with other things, and when all said and done, a lot of suffering for an inevitable end.

Shame if true.