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XyZspineZyX
06-07-2003, 04:30 AM
In 1937, a local businessman, an ardent follower of Adolf Hitler, planted a 60 by 60 metre area of Larch trees in a forest near the town of Zernikow, about 110 kms north of Berlin.

The trees were planted in the shape and format of a Swastika and could only be seen from the air.

During Autumn, when the Larch trees changed their colour to orange and yellow they stood out strikingly against a green forest of surrounding Pine trees.

Discovered many years after the war, this long forgotten symbol of the Nazi era was finally removed by cutting down 27 of the 57 trees that made up the Swastika design.

This was done in 2001 by the Brandenburg State Forest authorities. Displaying the Swastika symbol is forbidden in Germany today.

I don't think they'll be modeled in IL-2 FB either.../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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XyZspineZyX
06-07-2003, 04:30 AM
In 1937, a local businessman, an ardent follower of Adolf Hitler, planted a 60 by 60 metre area of Larch trees in a forest near the town of Zernikow, about 110 kms north of Berlin.

The trees were planted in the shape and format of a Swastika and could only be seen from the air.

During Autumn, when the Larch trees changed their colour to orange and yellow they stood out strikingly against a green forest of surrounding Pine trees.

Discovered many years after the war, this long forgotten symbol of the Nazi era was finally removed by cutting down 27 of the 57 trees that made up the Swastika design.

This was done in 2001 by the Brandenburg State Forest authorities. Displaying the Swastika symbol is forbidden in Germany today.

I don't think they'll be modeled in IL-2 FB either.../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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XyZspineZyX
06-07-2003, 04:32 AM
How did they discover it? Did somebody see the colourful pattern from the air, in autumn? Interesting story. Thanks.

XyZspineZyX
06-07-2003, 04:34 AM
LEXX_Luthor wrote:
- How did they discover it? Did somebody see the
- colourful pattern from the air, in autumn?
- Interesting story. Thanks.

Yep, a local pilot almost had a heart-attack while he was on a sightseeing tour...lol! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Can you believe they weren't removed until 2001?



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Message Edited on 06/06/0311:35PM by TaZ_Attack

XyZspineZyX
06-07-2003, 04:41 AM
any pic.?

<center>

http://www.geocities.com/warhawk530/AVG.jpg


'It is Courage, not the score, that counts ...' - Mohd Naqiuddin

XyZspineZyX
06-07-2003, 04:45 AM
Its strange how its illegal to have a swatsticka in germany, I noticed on a bunch of models made by german companys they dont have the swat decals. What happens to people caught with them im wondering

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Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter


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XyZspineZyX
06-07-2003, 04:55 AM
Okay, when did the pilot see the pattern? (...what year?)

You got me wondering how long it took to remove the pattern.

XyZspineZyX
06-07-2003, 05:08 AM
When I was in college I worked in a library, and on the floor where I worked, we had these desks that were actually four desks built together into one unit - they were built in such a fashion that, looked down on from above, they very clearly formed a swastica. I have no idea whether that was intentional or not - I rather doubt it - but it was highly visible, and it always creeped me out.


LeadSpitter_ wrote:
- Its strange how its illegal to have a swatsticka in
- germany.

I can understand why - there are people still alive who lived under that regime, and seeing that symbol again would be traumatic I'm sure. Especially if they are some of the few Holocaust survivors who returned after the war.

I don't have any problem at all with putting swasticas on airplanes and other models for the sake of historical accuracy, but it is another thing entirely to see them painted on walls in real life. I've only seen that a couple times here in the states, and I'm pretty sure that they were done by stupid young punks trying to be shocking. When I was in Slovenia and Croatia, however, there was a disturbingly large amount of fascist graffiti all over the place and in Ljubljana there were large gangs of neo-Nazi's that marched around the city at night, chanting and singing and raising their fists into the air. I'm Jewish, and although I don't have all of the stereotypical "Jewish features" I was still pretty damn scared.



Be seeing you.
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XyZspineZyX
06-07-2003, 05:08 AM
http://www.heathenworld.com/swastika/trees.html

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/nazi001128.html

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XyZspineZyX
06-07-2003, 05:12 AM
That heathenworld link is really good for anyone interested in the history of the symbol and its various uses all over the globe. THanks /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



Be seeing you.
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<center>. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .</center>
<center>nothing is true</center>
<center>http://www.ambersoft.com/earwicker/TheG.jpg</center>
<center>everything is permitted</center>
<center>. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .</center>

XyZspineZyX
06-07-2003, 05:22 AM
---Bauerschmidt said an attempt in 1995 to remove the
---swastika by pruning the trees had failed.

Okay, a minimum of five years to root them out. Wow! Thanks again for the effort.

XyZspineZyX
06-07-2003, 06:29 AM
I tried finding info about this but theres nothing out there

just found this which is weird in korea

http://www.photocorral.com/Galleries/PhotoCorral%20Asia/Images/14s10c1.jpg


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Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter


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XyZspineZyX
06-07-2003, 06:32 AM
LeadSpitter_ wrote:
-
- just found this which is weird in korea
-

This symbol is quite popular among Buddhists in many nations. In fact there was a political party in Nepal which used it rather recently - nothing at all to do with Naziism. It's also been used by a number of different cultures around the world and has meant all kinds of different things. I'm sure if you do a search you can find out all about it in one of the 400,000 discussions we've had about it /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif




Be seeing you.
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<center>. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .</center>
<center>nothing is true</center>
<center>http://www.ambersoft.com/earwicker/TheG.jpg</center>
<center>everything is permitted</center>
<center>. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .</center>

XyZspineZyX
06-07-2003, 06:53 AM
I know im some countries and religions, it actually means peace...go figure

~aaron white

XyZspineZyX
06-07-2003, 11:51 AM
actionhank1786 wrote:
- I know im some countries and religions, it actually
- means peace...go figure

Symbols mean little, it's the thought that counts! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



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XyZspineZyX
06-07-2003, 12:05 PM
Well, if Hitler took over the world and killed everyone he didn't like then the world would be quite peaceful. There wouldn't be anyone living there apart from Hitler actually.

Philips CDRW

"Yoke Whiners"
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Posting vacuous messages since 2002

XyZspineZyX
06-07-2003, 12:08 PM
... or discounts...

<center>Another BlitzPig</center>

XyZspineZyX
06-07-2003, 12:11 PM
This symbol is actually "used" by far over 2.5 billion people, maily in asia, but in a complete different way. In India the swastika (direction to the left) is a symbol for luck in life - as well it's very common in China and surrounding countries. I'm sure they would shaking heads with the know that this symbol is not allowed in Europa./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://www.geocities.com/kimurakai/SIG/262_01011.jpg


Kimura

XyZspineZyX
06-07-2003, 12:31 PM
There was this farmer in Cumberland who planted a heart-shaped wood to show his wife how much he loved her.

200 years later that shapely forest on the hillside is finally showing itself properly - and she would have been proud!



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XyZspineZyX
06-07-2003, 12:38 PM
Another interesting tidbit...

Horst Wessel an early convert to the Nazi party was 19 year old Bielefeld born Horst Wessel who gave up his law studies to join the SA (Storm Troopers). Working as a taxi driver and builders labourer he soon became a leading orator at SA rallies.

In 1929, he married Erna Jaenicke, an 18 year old prostitute.

On the evening of January 14, 1930, a group of thugs, led by Jaenicke's former boyfriend and pimp, Albrecht H√¬∂hler, called at their lodgings at 62 Grosse Frankfurter Strasse, Berlin and in a fit of jealous anger, H√¬∂hler drew a pistol from his pocket and shot Wessel in the mouth.

He died five weeks later on February 23. Before his murder he had composed a poem 'Die Fahne Hoch' (Fly the Flag High) which later was changed to 'The Horst Wessel Song' and introduced into Nazi Party ritual.

It soon became Nazi Germany's second anthem and played after 'Deutschland Uber Alles' (Germany Before All). Horst Wessel was buried in the Nikolaifriedhof cemetery but after the war, in common with all other Nazi graves, the headstone was removed.

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XyZspineZyX
06-07-2003, 03:28 PM
No Text

Message Edited on 06/07/0303:38PM by Dogtail2

XyZspineZyX
06-07-2003, 03:59 PM
I remember this story from a couple of years back (2001 prolly ;-) It's sad they destroyed the historical symbol, but photos exist on the net.

Like this one:
http://www.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/europe/12/04/germany.swastika.reut/


<img src=http://sivusto.servepics.com/cappa.gif>

"God kills a kitten everytime I switch off the cockpit." - Visigoth 6

"my ego is so far advanced that it just doesn't care." - RayBanJockey

XyZspineZyX
06-07-2003, 04:21 PM
I don't find it sad they destroyed the historical symbol.
CG out

XyZspineZyX
06-07-2003, 04:35 PM
Wasn't the swastika a symbol of good luck and/or good fortune among the Scandanavian folks (at one time anyway)? The Finnish national emblem for their Air Force before and during the War years was the swatika... I'm sure their use of it wasn't an endorsement of National Socialism.

I've got no trouble with many countries now banning the use of the swastika. It's their choice and their law, and considering the obvious historical relationship to war-time Nazi Germany, maybe it's a good idea for them.

I wold be very concerned if it were banned from use or view in the U.S. though. While the history the swastika forces us to remember isn't pretty, it's better to remember it than to repeat it. In my opinion anyway.

Oh... to get back on topic a bit, thanks for the link to the photo of the trees. They certainly chose a very distinctive type of tree to plant the symbol with. It is strange that it took 50 years or more to find it...

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XyZspineZyX
06-08-2003, 02:27 AM
WWSandMan wrote:
- The Finnish national emblem for their Air Force before and during the War years was the swatika...

*Ahem* You must mean the _Von Rosen cross_, no swastika's in FAF as far as I know /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif The similarity is striking though. And it was in use from 1918, way before any1 even though about nazism.

XyZspineZyX
06-08-2003, 03:09 AM
This happened here in Brazil during the fourties too, I'v read it in a book ,but the trees were planted alone whith no other trees around..

Derzasi

XyZspineZyX
06-08-2003, 08:06 AM
Ok, I was born in the USSR, the country of Ukraine, and I still remember the stories of my uncle who acctually fought in WW2, so I don't have any sympathy for "Fashist" party (not Germany!!!) But I think that forbidding the symbol, for any reason, is an immature approach to the problem, and it is humiliating for the nation, such as Germans, to be deprived of visual symbol of the past hisory just because some people belive that having the symbol present will trigger some "possesion" on the whole nation to go into the killing rage again!? During Stalins and Lenins regime millions of people died, much more than under Hitler, but yet everyone thinks it's OK to have a red star on the wing of the plane...It strikes me as a curious fact at least...But I guess that's something not many people consern themselves with... sad...Let's be true to ourselves- if one is a person of a realistic view and truthfull with himself such litlle thing as a swastik will only remind of the mistakes which should not be repeated, and if one has twisted morals such litlle thing as forbidding and elimination of any remenance of the symbol won't stop him, so this begs the question- who is this directed against and why there is no trust in human beings' common sence!!!

XyZspineZyX
06-08-2003, 01:50 PM
im a little shocked they took swastika'd headstones off graves... did they replace them? obviously i dont want swastikas around teh place, but people who died in battle for whatever reason deserve some kind of memorial, if only for their families sake. does anyone know if the graves were left bare or if the headstones were replaced by more 'traditional' ones?

XyZspineZyX
06-08-2003, 02:13 PM
LeadSpitter_ wrote:
- Its strange how its illegal to have a swatsticka in
- germany, I noticed on a bunch of models made by
- german companys they dont have the swat decals. What
- happens to people caught with them im wondering


nothin happens to them. as a modeler or somethin it isnt forbidden to put swasticas on your models. but show it with political reasons is forbidden. like (btw, we are NOT proud of them) the neonazis. the dumb, blind, f***in suckers who celebrate hitlers birthday and other 3th reich events.

for historical corectness ok, other reasons not.



(i dont think its historical correct to have a tree swastica that only can be seen from the air.....maybe in the approachway of an international airport *hehe* bad idea)

Vergesst nicht, wenn man euch nach eurer reinen Flugzeit fragt, z√¬§hlt das gebaumel am Fallschirm nicht!

XyZspineZyX
06-08-2003, 02:15 PM
Facinating stuff Taz!
Cheers mate. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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S! Simon.
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XyZspineZyX
06-08-2003, 05:54 PM
PsykoOps wrote:
- WWSandMan wrote:
-- The Finnish national emblem for their Air Force before and during the War years was the swatika...
-
- *Ahem* You must mean the _Von Rosen cross_, no
- swastika's in FAF as far as I know /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif The similarity is striking
- though. And it was in use from 1918, way before any1
- even though about nazism.
-
-

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif I stand corrected... You're right, the resemblance is striking between the two forms of cross.



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XyZspineZyX
06-08-2003, 06:51 PM
When I was a kid and watching Star Wars, I rooted for Darth Vader. I was like "hurry up, shoot the laser for cripes sake!"

I know the swastica is bad and everything, but sometimes I wonder "what if".

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XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 07:32 PM
swastica!

Be seeing you.

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 07:52 PM
As far as I'm aware it's only Germany that bans the swastika, and I have no problem with that. The ban was originally imposed by the occupying powers as part of the process of de-Nazification, and the current authorities will be maintaining it to prevent successive generations trying to "rediscover" Nazism. Don't forget that the Nazis made an immense amount of political capital out of the "stab in the back" theory of defeat in 1918, and avoiding something similar - The Nazis only lost because of XYZ, let's build a new Nazi party - would be the root cause of the ban. Far right groups have been persistent on the German fringe for many years, so it's not a baseless fear, though Nazism would never reach it's old heights.

That said it's a shame that the symbol is missing from FB, for historical reasons - and because I would get a hell of a lot of satisfaction from shooting down Nazis.

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 08:05 PM
You won't believe this (I saw it with my own eyes and was stunned!) but the courthouse in downtown Birmingham, Alabama has swastica (direction to the left) decorations in the masonry of this imposing building.

Unfortunately, I didn't have a camera...so no pic.

I was told that this is a good luck sign of the Zuni Indians, but I cannot confirm this.

Just blew me away seeing this on a principal building in Alabama!

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XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 08:29 PM
- It is strange that it took 50 years or more to
- find it...

I wondered about this myself, but then I remembered just how long it takes a tree to grow to full height. If the guy planted those trees in the 30's, seeing them from the air for the first time in late 90's sounds about right.

--
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XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 08:40 PM
Totale wrote:
- As far as I'm aware it's only Germany that bans the
- swastika

Isn't swastika illegal in France too? And when you consider where UBI is from, well... can't say I was too suprised to see them missing.

BTW, does CFS3 have swastikas? At least the screenshots on MS site seem to have a rather un-swastique look on them...



--
http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/mkviljan/il2/signature.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 08:52 PM
here it is.

http://www.theimageworks.com/noteworthy/archive/dec6/previewpages/previewpage10.htm

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 09:23 PM
Man, So if they see a groupe of houses that resemble the shape of the swastica, are they gonna tear them all down? Or what if it was a whole city block which had roads that looked broke into sections which resembled the swastica. Would they rip the city apart? Stoopid things like this is what we care about now? For pete sake man, their trees!!! And one more thing, couldnt they just extract them from their places??? Now that their gone, wouldnt their still be an empty area resembleing a swastica formation in the area where the trees were before?

I dont get it, arent their more important things to do?

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So he tells me, "I ban the Me262 cause its turn rate is over modeled and it dosnt stall"... Then he takes off from his base in a Hurricane.

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 09:51 PM
WWSandMan wrote:
-
- Oh... to get back on topic a bit, thanks for the
- link to the photo of the trees. They certainly chose
- a very distinctive type of tree to plant the symbol
- with. It is strange that it took 50 years or more to
- find it...

What makes you think they did'nt know all along?
rad

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XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 10:18 PM
PsykoOps wrote:
- WWSandMan wrote:
-- The Finnish national emblem for their Air Force before and during the War years was the swatika...
-
- *Ahem* You must mean the _Von Rosen cross_, no
- swastika's in FAF as far as I know /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif The similarity is striking
- though. And it was in use from 1918, way before any1
- even though about nazism.
-
-

Yes, von Rosen‚¬īs cross was used in FAF from 1918 (until 1944), when von Rosen donated a plane for Finnish White Army during Finnish Civil War. Whites won the civil war and Finnish army honored Swedish von Rosen using his family symbol in FAF planes and later tanks. Finnish hakaristi was then banned as "fascist" symbol in 1944. Otherwise, it is used in FAF flags even today.
Baron von Rosen‚¬īs familymember was the wife of Herman G√¬∂ring. It‚¬īs not impossible that nazis took their swastika from von Rosen...

But swastika in Finland (or "Mursunsyd√¬§n" aka "The heart of walrus") was in use in Finnish culture long before 1900s, here is for example fabrics from East-Karelia from late 1700s and 1800s where Mursunsyd√¬§n is dispalyed. That symbol is originally symbol of Ukko Ylijumala, ancient Finnish main god from times 1000-2000 years ago. It was also the symbol of fertility.
Finnish medals shared to hundreds people every independece day does include this von Rosen‚¬īs swastika / Mursunsyd√¬§n even today. Swastika is censored from FB‚¬īs original medal files.
So it is very much symbol of luck for Finns, just like in so many cultures. I personally found nothing wrong from swastika itself. Just like I don‚¬īt found anything wrong from five pointed star either, even it can be seen as symbol of forgot holocaust.



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Message Edited on 08/07/0311:21PM by Kunkkula

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 11:41 PM
Man, talk about raising the dead! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Cheers,

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XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 12:34 AM
CGReload wrote:
- Man, So if they see a groupe of houses that resemble
- the shape of the swastica, are they gonna tear them
- all down? Or what if it was a whole city block
- which had roads that looked broke into sections
- which resembled the swastica. Would they rip the
- city apart?


No of course not.
The trees where a GIFT to Hitler. Therefor a Nazi symbol.



Stoopid things like this is what we
- care about now? For pete sake man, their trees!!!
- And one more thing, couldnt they just extract them
- from their places???

They didn't take all trees down I believe, just enough to break the shape up.



-
- I dont get it, arent their more important things to
- do?
-

Yes.

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 02:22 AM
Earwicker wrote:
-
- LeadSpitter_ wrote:
--
-- just found this which is weird in korea
--
-
- This symbol is quite popular among Buddhists in many
- nations. In fact there was a political party in
- Nepal which used it rather recently - nothing at all
- to do with Naziism. It's also been used by a number
- of different cultures around the world and has meant
- all kinds of different things. I'm sure if you do a
- search you can find out all about it in one of the
- 400,000 discussions we've had about it /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
-
-
-

Please take note. Buddhists symble is different from the SS symble. Just take a look at the direction the cross is twisted. I am the mistake a while ago thinking those were the same. A Jewish (who is Buddhist and wearing the buddhist symbol) friend of mine pointed out to me.

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 03:27 AM
I have a little Buddha figurine with a tiny swastika on the forehead. Also, a professor of mine once visited a very old Jewish temple with a swastika pattern on the floor. It's used in many cultures.

Wiffle

Yes, and here's to the few
who forgive what you do
and the fewer who don't even care

--Leonard Cohen

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 07:34 AM
Good work Kunkkula, interesting tidbits. There's more on our FB squadron homepage (shameless plug alert!):

http://www.lelv30.net/english.php#von_rosen

I hope this was of interest to someone.
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XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 08:32 AM
Thanks for that info. Very interesting and I for one am glad to hear they took it down.

On a sidenote: IIRC a flipped swastika (ie: pointing to the left instead of to the right) is a symbol of good luck. Wonder what the nazi swastika means then (reverse from good luck?) /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 09:32 AM
I read this in one of the articles:

"...Swastikas are mostly outlawed in Germany.. Coins and stamps are exempt from the ban..."

I knew swatikas were banned in Germany but what that of the coins and stamps exactly means? Is it legal to have a swastika in a coin?