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Bearcat99
09-17-2005, 05:13 PM
Check this (http://www.leisuregalleries.com/lluftwaffe.html) out.

Bearcat99
09-17-2005, 05:13 PM
Check this (http://www.leisuregalleries.com/lluftwaffe.html) out.

Kurfurst__
09-17-2005, 05:18 PM
Liked it at the first glance but... then almost throw up when I saw the first line :

"1* EGON MAYER - KIA 1944, 102 vics in east, Swords winner, RARE $995 "

Some will understand why, some will not, but thanks for posting the link, Bear`.

new-fherathras
09-17-2005, 05:18 PM
ok

Bearcat99
09-17-2005, 05:31 PM
Hey I know that some of these guys were Nazi scum who would have just as soon seen me or my grandfather in a concentration camp.. that reality doesnot escape me believe me.. all of them werent "Noble fliers defending the fatherland.."... but I also know that there are people here who are real fans of the history... and the fact that they are fliers... good or bad.... is why I posted the link. We all know that many of the policies of Germany.. and the U.S. too for that matter.. were in many ways barbaric and uncivilized.

Hydra444
09-17-2005, 05:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
Hey I know that some of these guys were Nazi scum who would have just as soon seen me or my grandfather in a concentration camp.. that reality doesnot escape me believe me.. all of them werent "Noble fliers defending the fatherland.."... but I also know that there are people here who are real fans of the history... and the fact that they are fliers... good or bad.... is why I posted the link. We all know that many of the policies of Germany.. and the U.S. too for that matter.. were in many ways barbaric and uncivilized. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well said,Cat http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif A shame that Marseille print is already sold,really like that guys style LOL

Low_Flyer_MkII
09-17-2005, 05:58 PM
I know where you're coming from BC. Had a chat with a younger member of my family recently who seemed to think knowing about nazi's made me a card carrying member. She won't be making that mistake again.

And talking of Marseille, haven't his claims come in for some revision recently?
Genuinely curious.

Chuck_Older
09-17-2005, 06:16 PM
Walter Wolfrum's photo could easily pass for a friend of mine from High School. When I saw it I actually said out loud, "Holy ****, that's Marc Bourget!"

Kurfurst__
09-17-2005, 06:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">EGON MAYER - KIA 1944, 102 vics in east, Swords winner, RARE $995 " </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually I was referring to part that they make business from everything... like, 'hey wonderful, that Egon Mayer guy is dead for good, he won`t sign any more photos so I can sell it and put out the sing RARE. Not anything about politsh*t.

I guess Egon Mayer as a living person was a bit more than just a f*ing signed photo that could be sold at a good price - he had a family, loved ones, comrades, feelings, ambitions, qualities and bad habits, and it somehow bothers me to handle a person like that - BIG NAZI with many kills and the IRON CROSS, come and get his signed photo for only 995 bucks `cos he won`t sign anymore.

I know war relics are sold, and it`s not a neccesarily bad thing, but this one example looks like more like tombraiding to me, boasting to your neighbours with your relic. 'Geeeeee I got a singed pic from the Red Baron himself, for only 4999$'. It just disgusts me, yeah I know, it`s only me.

Enforcer572005
09-17-2005, 06:56 PM
i wouldnt mind having prints of galland, Stienhoff, and Rall.....I admire those guys, as they helped reform the luftwaffe and train Nato pilots etc. ***** Hermann also hated their guts for NOT being loyal Nazis.

Face it, Hitler's signed pic would bring alot of dough, and understandably so. Its the historical aspect.

Luftwaffe_109
09-17-2005, 07:22 PM
Thanks for the link Bearcat99, very interesting.

TX-Gunslinger
09-17-2005, 07:56 PM
Thanks Bear.

Low_Flyer - No, actually Marseille's claims, like many of the Experten, were greeted with skepticism immediately after the war. Researchers working in cooperation with the RAF mainly, validated them all.

When you look at kill tally scores, particularly in the west, where Commonwealth and US records were public knowlege for over 60 years now, you can rest assured that the numbers are very accurate.

So, when you look at that list, how many die-hard Nazi's do you see? I certainly see one, Hans Ulrich-Rudel, who was a documented fanatic.

Remember that most of these folks were conscripted Germans or pre-war professional military pilots.

Calling them "Nazi's" is the equivalent of calling all U.S. Soldiers in WWII "Democrats" or all U.S. Soldiers in Iraq right now "Republicans".

It's dissapointing that so many folks (in particular my own countrymen) can't separate politics and government policies from regular military professionals.

Service to an individuals country is one thing and their politics are another. Don't you agree?

Thanks again for the link Bear. If we're going to throw rocks at slavers and genocideal racists, we might as well start right here in the good ol' USA.

Don't have to go to Germany to find that kind of legacy.

S~

Gun

Low_Flyer_MkII
09-17-2005, 08:07 PM
Thank you.

Crash_Man
09-17-2005, 08:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Low_Flyer_MkII:
And talking of Marseille, haven't his claims come in for some revision recently?
Genuinely curious. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
No. He scored 158, all against Western flown aircraft (so you can't claim lack of training as a means to his total, as you could with Ost Front fliegers) And all of those victories have been verified after the war by Western sources.

He was truly a great in fighter pilot lore.


Marseille wasn't killed in an accident, as claimed.

The circumstances during which "Jochen" Marseille died, have been the object of speculation. Marseille's willfulness and defective discipline are well-known. Having noted his 100th kill on June 17, 1942, he was supposed to take a five week's leave in Germany.
According to unconfirmed sources - which nevertheless laid the ground for a feature film - Marseille should have tried to "back out" in Italy, after having been detailed on the "final solution" intended for the Jewish people. According to this version, he was caught by the Gestapo and given the choice of returning to his unit and continue to play the role of Luftwaffe's war hero No 1 - or having himself and his whole family executed. What is known is that he didn't return to his unit in Africa until the end of August, with the explanation given that he had "disappeared with a woman in Italy".
The following month, Marseille did his utmost to live up to his role as "Hero No 1", setting the record of the war by shooting down 17 British fighters on September 1, 1942. During that month, which was to become the last, he shot down the incredible amount of 57 British aircraft. On September 30, 1942, his Messerschmitt G-2 obtained engine trouble during a routine flight and he bailed out.

Now, his wingman reported that he was struck by the tail and his chute never opened. But he body nor plane were ever recovered. So he was reported as KIA, and that was that.

But what really happened was that Marseille grew tired of fighting for what he knew was an evil course. And he worked out a plan with his most trusted friend, his wingman. He did indeed bail out, but he survived and escaped the war. He resided in South Africa in Port Nolloth, near the Namibian border, where he happily worked as a fisherman, and sported as big game hunter for many years. He passed away peacfully in 2003 at the age of 83, survived by his wife, and two of there 3 children. (Their middle child was killed by a driver while walking home at the age of 7 in 1959.)

Loco-S
09-17-2005, 10:02 PM
I wonder how if they didnt find the body, how could they bury him.....Hard to believe it was an elaborate scam... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/hanstate.html
http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/images/lrg0339.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Kurbalaganda/August06-4-2005001.jpg

Pirschjaeger
09-17-2005, 11:00 PM
If, what Crashman posted was true, then the Luftwaffe would have had to go along with the sceme to save face. Here was a war hero that possibly defected. This would have been very damaging propaganda.

The funeral had to take place, even if the LW couldn't find his body. Another body would have had to be used. I'll bet it wasn't an open casket funeral.

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
09-17-2005, 11:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TX-Gunslinger:
Thanks Bear.

Low_Flyer - No, actually Marseille's claims, like many of the Experten, were greeted with skepticism immediately after the war. Researchers working in cooperation with the RAF mainly, validated them all.

When you look at kill tally scores, particularly in the west, where Commonwealth and US records were public knowlege for over 60 years now, you can rest assured that the numbers are very accurate.

So, when you look at that list, how many die-hard Nazi's do you see? I certainly see one, Hans Ulrich-Rudel, who was a documented fanatic.

Remember that most of these folks were conscripted Germans or pre-war professional military pilots.

Calling them "Nazi's" is the equivalent of calling all U.S. Soldiers in WWII "Democrats" or all U.S. Soldiers in Iraq right now "Republicans".

It's dissapointing that so many folks (in particular my own countrymen) can't separate politics and government policies from regular military professionals.

Service to an individuals country is one thing and their politics are another. Don't you agree?

Thanks again for the link Bear. If we're going to throw rocks at slavers and genocideal racists, we might as well start right here in the good ol' USA.

Don't have to go to Germany to find that kind of legacy.

S~

Gun </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gunslinger, well said. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Fritz

x__CRASH__x
09-17-2005, 11:05 PM
A pic of a flag drapped over an empty bed is supposed to prove what, exactly?

It proves that Jochen got away.

Luftwaffe_109
09-17-2005, 11:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Crash_Man:
But what really happened was that Marseille grew tired of fighting for what he knew was an evil course. And he worked out a plan with his most trusted friend, his wingman. He did indeed bail out, but he survived and escaped the war. He resided in South Africa in Port Nolloth, near the Namibian border, where he happily worked as a fisherman, and sported as big game hunter for many years. He passed away peacfully in 2003 at the age of 83, survived by his wife, and two of there 3 children. (Their middle child was killed by a driver while walking home at the age of 7 in 1959.) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And your source for such a fanciful nonesense?

The body of Marseille was found, there were even photographs taken of it.

Hans Joachim Marseille died on 30th September 1942 after bailing out and hiting his tail. That is all there is to it, there is no conspiracy.

Loco-S
09-17-2005, 11:21 PM
He fell to earth Four miles south of Sidi el Aman at 11:26 AM local time on September 30 1942, his body was indeed found and the plane too, plus the recovery team saw the body, the base doctor had to certify death.
the source of the fire was not determined, but there is some speculation that it may have been Oil starvation. Quite common in the african theater due to sand ingestion by the engine.

Pirschjaeger
09-17-2005, 11:28 PM
I hope he was knocked unconsious when he hit the tail. A four mile drop is a long time to contemplate certain death.

If there were photos of him after his death then I guess that would be basically enough proof.

It's too bad he didn't have a more honourable death. A warrior deserves to die in combat. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Fritz

Loco-S
09-17-2005, 11:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
I hope he was knocked unconsious when he hit the tail. A four mile drop is a long time to contemplate certain death.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Me thinks you got it wrong, he didnt fall 20,000 feet (4 miles).....he fell to the ground at a place located 4 horizontal (walking) miles south of Sidi el Aman.

Luftwaffe_109
09-17-2005, 11:38 PM
Pirschjaeger it is my understanding that Marseille was unable to open his parachute, which would suggest that he was incapacitated, likely unconsious. Its very possible in my opinion that he may have been dead long before he fell to earth, perhaps killed by the impact?

TX-Gunslinger
09-17-2005, 11:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Loco-S:
He fell to earth Four miles south of Sidi el Aman at 11:26 AM local time on September 30 1942, his body was indeed found and the plane too, plus the recovery team saw the body, the base doctor had to certify death.
the source of the fire was not determined, but there is some speculation that it may have been Oil starvation. Quite common in the african theater due to sand ingestion by the engine. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was oil or glycol related. If it was white smoke, it was probably glycol, black would indicate oil. S~

Hauptman Marseille was flying Bf 109G-2 Werk Mr. #14256 at the time of the incident. From "Messerschmitt Bf 109 In Action, Part2 (Squadron/Signal Publication)" by John R Beaman Jr,

"A short time after service introduction of the G series, operational units began reporting mysterious fires shortly after take off, sometimes causing the loss of both aircraft and pilot. Testing eventually showed that during overheating the horseshoe shaped nose mounted oil tank seeped oil into the hot engine causing a flash fire. After ascertaining the problem, two small cooling scoops were introduced on each side of the nose, cooling the oil tank. General Kesselring and others have attributed the death of Hans Jochiam Marseilles to one of these oil fires, however British Aviation Historian Jack Foreman has reported that a fracture in the glycol (sic:coolant) line was responsible for the fire that forced Marsielle to fatally abandon his aircraft."


Here's a great link (of several) for information regarding Marseilles and his career http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/hanstate.html

Targ
09-18-2005, 12:08 AM
His body was indeed found and there are several pictures of his body. I have a book with many pictures of him and indeed of his body after his death.
Honestly, I have no desire to post those pictures but rest assured he died that day.

x__CRASH__x
09-18-2005, 10:23 AM
Well, so much for holding out hope.

Ruy Horta
09-18-2005, 11:01 AM
Although I cannot recall the source, I came across a passage in a book dealing with Marseille's death.

IIRC this other pilot and Marseille had discussed the best way to bail out from a 109 in case of an emergency. Although the generally accepted way was to release the canopy (yes correct - RELEASE) release your safety belt and push the stick forward, resulting in the pilot being sort of ejected, Marseille though it better to flip over the a/c on its back and drop out.

IIRC this is what he tried when he bailed and was struck by the tail empennage. This isn't surprising since the a/c would have a tendency to dive once the controls were go.

Low_Flyer_MkII
09-18-2005, 11:32 AM
I‚‚ā¨ôve been doing a bit of research. I hope that this will help to put some meat on the bones of Marseille‚‚ā¨ôs story for anyone interested. Thanks again to TX-Gunslinger for steering me in the right direction. I trust you accept that my curiosity was genuine and not some attempt to detract from the achievements of an interesting character, who preferred tennis shoes to flying boots, and who died aged 22.

From this site, already mentioned.
http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/hanstate.html
Bringing up the often questioned statistics that prompted my original enquiry,

‚‚ā¨ŇďMuch of the debate and refusal to substantiate Marseille's combat record originates from one day of furious air combat on 1 September, 1942 in which he claimed to have destroyed 17 aircraft in three sorties. Not only did Marseille claim 17 aircraft, but he did it in a fashion that was unheard of at the time. His victims were shot out of the sky in such a rapid fashion that many Allied critics still refuse to believe Marseille's claims as fact. But it is precisely the speed and fury involved with these kills that has been the center of the Marseille debate for the past half century. For years, many British historians and militarists refused to admit that they had lost any aircraft that day in North Africa. Careful review of records however do show that the British did lose more than 17 aircraft that day, and in the area that Marseille operated. The British simply refused to believe, as many do today, that any German pilot was capable of such rapid destruction of RAF hardware.
Facts are that Marseille is still acknowledged as among the best marksmen in the Luftwaffe. The Germans were very meticulous in filing combat reports with all relevant data to include time of battle, area of operation, opposition encountered, as well as an in-depth armorers report. At the end of a mission, the armorers would count the number of bullets and cannon shells expended during the fight. Marseille would often average an astonishing 15 bullets required per victory, and this with a combat resulting in his downing of several allied aircraft. No other German pilot was close to Marseille in this area.‚‚ā¨¬Ě


http://hem.passagen.se/galland/Mars.html
For the story of his mysterious disappearance after his 100th kill.


http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/marse/marse.htm
For a well-written brief biography.

http://www.2worldwar2.com/marseille.htm
For details of his self-training regime.


From an interview with Johannes Steinhoff.
http://history1900s.about.com/library/prm/bljohannessteinhoff2.htm

WWII: Some of the men you flew with became legends. For instance, in 1940 in France you commanded a young pilot named Hans-Joachim Marseille. What do you remember about him?
Steinhoff: Marseille was in my wing, 4/JG.52, just before the Battle of Britain and was there shortly after it started. I was his squadron leader, and I watched him. I knew he was a brilliant guy, very intelligent, very quick and aggressive, but he spent too much time looking for the girls, and his mind was not always on operations. He actually had to be taken off flight status on more than one oc-casion because he was so exhausted from his nights on the town, if you know what I mean.
WWII: So you would say he was a playboy?
Steinhoff: He was the perfect playboy, but a real fighter. But he was an individual, not a team player. He had seven victories when I fired him, not because he was not good, but because he was shot down four times while getting those victories. He had no concept of Rot-tenflieger [i.e., a wingman's responsibility], and many men did not want to fly with him as their wmgman, which is very bad for morale. I thought the best thing for him was to transfer him away from the women, and he became a legend in North Africa, of course, winning the Diamonds [to the Knight's Cross] and scoring 158 victories. He was a true character and was the epitome of the First World War fighter pilot, but we were not fighting the First World War.


http://www.taphilo.com/history/snippets.shtml
For a nice story reminiscent of the real Charlie Chaplin coming third in a look-alike contest. This site has a host of amusing military anecdotes. Worth a quick peek.

Hans-Joachim Marseille
A humorous excerpt from the book "German Fighter Ace Hans-Joachim Marseille" by Franz Kurowski. This was sent to me from one of my online flying companions. This snippet is about one Marseille's leaves to Berlin ...
"A short time later he found himself standing in the Berlin Rathaus, or city hall, directly across from the Oberb√ľrgermeister. He entered his name into the Golden Book of the city and talked with several of the citizens who were thronging about him. On the journey home he took the streetcar. The conductor naturally recognized him right away and paid for his fare right out of his own pocket.
That evening he went with his mother to the cinema. This time he was wearing civilian clothes and wasn't stopped everywhere. The Weekly News showed a German fighter flying against a British enemy over the Channel. When the German, after a long dueling battle, finally managed to get on the enemy plane's tail and open fire, his tracers zipped past him harmlessly.
Forgetting his surroundings, Marseille suddenly jumped up.
"Hold your fire! Hold your fire!", he shouted angrily.
One of the moviegoers in front of him turned around and, in a typically Berliner dialect, said: "What do you know about it, young man? You're certainly no Marseille."
Hans-Joachim Marseille fell back into his seat, smiling. His mother cast a mischievous glance in his direction and pressed his hand."


http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/history/marshall/mi...irforce/luftaces.txt (http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/history/marshall/military/airforce/luftaces.txt)
For a list of top-scoring Luftwaffe pilots, with the following notes.

Hauptmann Emil Lang (173 kills) downed a record 18 aircraft in one day.
Hauptmann Hans-Joachim Marseille downed 17 in one day.

Major Erich Rudorffer (222 kills) downed a record 13 aircraft in one sortie.

Oberleutnant Guenther Scheel had an kill-per-sortie rate greater than 1 -
71 kills in 70 sorties.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------



Most of figures come from the ******ss Book of Air Facts and Feats, so they
should be the definitive totals. The rest are from "Horrido".

Another interesting note, that I see - about half these aces belonged to either
JG 52 or JG 54!

http://www.regiamarina.net/others/germany/contribution_us.htm
For brief general background information on the Mediterranean front.

And to attempt to get back on topic (sorry, Bearcat!)

Marseille autographs

‚£990 from this site
http://www.aeroclocks.com/Autograph_WW2_pages/autograph_no_968.htm


$1695 from this site
http://www.jsgallery.net/autogrph.htm

Friendly_flyer
09-18-2005, 12:01 PM
Thanks for the quotes, Low-Flyer, the comments from Steinhoff was very interesting!

FI_Willie
09-18-2005, 01:25 PM
Look at Steinhoff's picture and read this..
Steinhoff (http://history1900s.about.com/library/prm/bljohannessteinhoff1.htm)
I don't think he'd qualify as the fanatic, but rather as man who loved to fly and fight.

JG52_wunsch
09-18-2005, 02:12 PM
thx for the link bear,and well said gunslinger,cheers m8.

TX-Gunslinger
09-18-2005, 02:36 PM
Well Crash, the Marseille as Elvis theme was pretty cool http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Low_Flyer, great links and research. There are things there that I had'nt seen. S~

Rudorffer and Lang are some of my favorite high scoring 190 drivers. They both converted early to the type. "Bully" Lang was just that, an athlete and very popular leader who flew with his gut more than his brains. He accomplished remarkable feats through sheer determination alone. I think Lang, who scored remarkably on the eastern front, underestimated both the quality of his wingmen and the experienced allied pilots he ran into after he transferred to JG26. He did'nt last long after that transfer.

Rudorffer is especially interesting to me. He actually survived the war and fighting in all theaters with one of the most balanced tallys between east and west ever achieved. He's considered by many to be one of the 4 greatest air marksman of the Experten (the others being Rall, Marseille and Bar). He fought with his brains. Of all the folks I wished I could ask about war experiences, it would be him. I think he was the finest FW-190 pilot in the world.

One other guy worth looking into is Addi Glunz if you get the chance.

S~

Low_Flyer_MkII
09-18-2005, 03:04 PM
All part of the service http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I'll look out for Glunz.

S!

Tvrdi
09-18-2005, 04:40 PM
what a character, he was probably the most skilled fighter ace of WW2...a french/german playboy listenin jazz music, and downing 17 planes in single sortie with unique style.....can you believe?


"...and preferred to use high angle deflection firing from short range while making a sharp turn. In doing so, he never used his gun sight and instead fired a very short burst at the passing target in the split second when its leading edge, its propeller, disappeared from his eyes behind his aircraft's nose. He calculated that when firing a short burst at this position, his gun rounds will hit the target's engine and cockpit, and he trained in this unorthodox aiming method on his friends (without firing) many times and perfected his ability to use it. He deduced that over the desert, a fighter pilot can become "invisible" only by extreme maneuvers at close range, and that the intensity of the maneuvering was more important than the speed of flying...."

"...Marseille told his wingman to cover him and attacked a formation of four Hurricanes. He dived at them, leveled at their altitude, and shot down two Hurricanes in a single burst while in a sharp turn. He then dived below the Hurricanes to gather some speed again, and then climbed back to them and shot down a third Hurricane. At that stage, the two formations disengaged each other, but Marseille climbed alone to a higher altitude and later dived at the retreating Hurricanes and shot down a 4th Hurricane, his 5th victory that day, and only then flew alone back to base. "I believe now i got it" he said to a friend...."

"...After ten minutes, he left his formation with the escorted bombers and flew alone to attack the 16 Tomahawks, but his faithful wingman followed him. Marseille climbed above a tight formation of four, then dived at them. From a range of just 200ft he selected his first victim and turned at him. From a very short range of just 150ft he fired and shot it down. He then pulled up, turned, and dived at his 2nd victim, shooting it down from a range of 150ft. The others began to dive, but Marseille dived at them, turned at his 3rd victim and shot it down at altitude of about 3500ft (1km). He passed thru the smoke from his 3rd victim and leveled at low altitude, and then climbed again. He then dived again, at his 4th victim. He fired from just 100ft, but his guns didn't fire, so he fired his machine guns from very short range and passed thru the debris from his 4th victim. At the moment he hit his 4th victim, his 3rd victim hit the ground after falling 3500ft, approximately 15 seconds between victories, an indication of Marseille's speed. The remaining Tomahawks were now all at very low altitude. He leveled at them and quickly closed distance. He found himself beside one of the Tomahawks, he turned at him and fired, hitting his 5th victim in the engine and the cockpit. He climbed again, watched the remaining Tomahawks, selected a target, dived, levelled, and fired, and passed just above his 6th victim. He then climbed to his wingman which observed the battle from 7500ft above, and then, short of fuel and ammunition, flew back to base.

In 11 minutes of combat, fighting practically alone against a large enemy formation, he shot down six victims, five of them in the first six minutes. He was the only attacker in the battle, and not a single round was fired at him. The surviving Tomahawk pilots said in their debriefing that they were attacked "by a numerically superior german formation which made one formation attack at them, shot down six of their friends, and disengaged". In a post-war analysis of this dogfight these pilots testified the same...."

Hydra444
09-18-2005, 05:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Low_Flyer_MkII:
I know where you're coming from BC. Had a chat with a younger member of my family recently who seemed to think knowing about nazi's made me a card carrying member. She won't be making that mistake again.

And talking of Marseille, haven't his claims come in for some revision recently?
Genuinely curious. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Being a first generation German-American,I got pretty used to be asked "So is your familiy a bunch of Nazi's?" growing up as a kid in Tennessee.Being that the smart alick I was as a kid though,I always responded with "Yes.".That was until I found out more about my family's during the war.Wasn't so funny after that http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

As for Marseille,I remember someone at work mentioning the samething.Why what happened?

Low_Flyer_MkII
09-18-2005, 05:30 PM
S! Hydra444,

The Marseille question concerned his claim of 17 kills in one sortie - it crops up regularly, I've read more about him lately (see my second from last post here, lots of info') - a lot more proof for him than against.

Interminate
09-18-2005, 05:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
Hey I know that some of these guys were Nazi scum who would have just as soon seen me or my grandfather in a concentration camp.. that reality doesnot escape me believe me.. all of them werent "Noble fliers defending the fatherland.."... but I also know that there are people here who are real fans of the history... and the fact that they are fliers... good or bad.... is why I posted the link. We all know that many of the policies of Germany.. and the U.S. too for that matter.. were in many ways barbaric and uncivilized. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What would you all do without Germany and Hitler? Boy I wonder what you all would talk about all day. Non-nazi-scum?

You bore me. Stop posting the same stupid line every few minutes.

Oh, and by the way, assuming you are black, you would have been far better treated in Germany than the Good Ole US of A !

Interminate
09-18-2005, 05:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
I hope he was knocked unconsious when he hit the tail. A four mile drop is a long time to contemplate certain death.

If there were photos of him after his death then I guess that would be basically enough proof.

It's too bad he didn't have a more honourable death. A warrior deserves to die in combat. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How Sensitive of you. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

NS38th_Aristaus
09-19-2005, 05:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Enforcer572005:
i wouldnt mind having prints of galland, Stienhoff, and Rall.....I admire those guys, as they helped reform the luftwaffe and train Nato pilots etc. ***** Hermann also hated their guts for NOT being loyal Nazis.

Face it, Hitler's signed pic would bring alot of dough, and understandably so. Its the historical aspect. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

These arn't signed portriats but u can bet they went for a pretty penny.
http://www.pzg.biz/hitler_the_artist.htm

Pirschjaeger
09-19-2005, 06:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Interminate:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
I hope he was knocked unconsious when he hit the tail. A four mile drop is a long time to contemplate certain death.

If there were photos of him after his death then I guess that would be basically enough proof.

It's too bad he didn't have a more honourable death. A warrior deserves to die in combat. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How Sensitive of you. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ha ha ha, Afri-Trink-Cola, how are you buddy? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Fritz

Hydra444
09-19-2005, 08:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FI_Willie:
Look at Steinhoff's picture and read this..
Steinhoff (http://history1900s.about.com/library/prm/bljohannessteinhoff1.htm)
I don't think he'd qualify as the fanatic, but rather as man who loved to fly and fight. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that could be said for many of the Luftwaffe pilots.They just were doing what it was they were trained to do.I haven't read too much on the actual fighter pilots (I'm more a fan of the aircraft),but many did not seem to hold any grudge against those they flew against.It was a real "It's either him or me..."-type attitude.

Pirschjaeger
09-19-2005, 09:24 AM
It seems like the war in the air was a totally different war than on the ground. Fighter pilots seem to respect their enemy generally. I think this is why they were often referred to as "Knights".

Chivalry is not dead, it's above the clouds. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz

Bearcat99
09-19-2005, 02:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Interminate:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
Hey I know that some of these guys were Nazi scum who would have just as soon seen me or my grandfather in a concentration camp.. that reality doesnot escape me believe me.. all of them werent "Noble fliers defending the fatherland.."... but I also know that there are people here who are real fans of the history... and the fact that they are fliers... good or bad.... is why I posted the link. We all know that many of the policies of Germany.. and the U.S. too for that matter.. were in many ways barbaric and uncivilized. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What would you all do without Germany and Hitler? Boy I wonder what you all would talk about all day. Non-nazi-scum?

You bore me. Stop posting the same stupid line every few minutes.

Oh, and by the way, assuming you are black, you would have been far better treated in Germany than the Good Ole US of A ! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Get a grip bucko...... dont start none wont be none.... Im just commenting... and if I bore you then dont read my posts. Not all the Luftwaffe pilots were Nazis I never said they were and not all of them were noble Germans defending the fatherland either.. but they were pilots.. and that is what we celebrate here and the reason I made the post in the first place so dont inject your Neo political BS into this thread. Like I said if I bore you then take a hike.

As for the Nazis..? AFAIC they were scum. The whole lot of them at the top. You want to know what we would do without Germany and Hitler? Well the world isn't, wasn't and won't be short on despotic megalomaniacal men bent on gaining as much power as they can, so Im sure we would have had someone else.. there's always Stalin.

As far as Germany goes... Germany is a nation.... and as anybody with $hit for brains knows Germany was around long before the Nazis came along and contributed to the human race in countless wonderful ways to numerous for me to name in this thread. Two different subjects... I don't confuse them at all and don't try to put words in my mouth insinuating that I did.

Lastly as to how those "noble Nazis" you so readily defend would have treated me and mine and how it would have been better than the "good ole US of A"..... I am from here, and if it was good enough for my ancestors to defend then it is good enough for me. Besides.... a lynching is a lyncing. I leave you with this for thought:

"Like most West European nations, Germany established colonies in Africa in the late 1800s in what later became Togo, Cameroon, Namibia, and Tanzania.

German genetic experiments began there most notably involving prisoners taken from the 1904 Heroro Massacre that left 60,000 Africans dead following a 4 year revolt of German colonization. After the shellacking Germany received in World War I, it was stripped of its African colonies in 1918. As a spoil of war, the French were allowed to occupy Germany in the Rhineland, a bitter piece of real estate that has gone back and forth between the two nations for centuries. The French willfully deployed their own colonized African soldiers as the occupying force. Germans viewed this as the final insult of World War I. Soon thereafter 92% of them voted in the Nazi party.

Hundreds of these African Rhineland-based soldiers intermarried with German women and raised their children as Black Germans. In Mein Kampf, Hitler wrote about his plans for these "Rhineland Bastards". When he came to power, one of his first directives was aimed at these mixed children.

Underscoring his obsession with racial purity, by 1937, every identified mixed race child in the Rhineland had been forcibly sterilized to prevent further " race polluting" as he termed it. Hans Hauck, a Black Holocaust survivor and a victim of Hitler's mandatory sterilization program, explained in the film that when he was forced to undergo sterilization as a teenager, he was given no anesthetic. Once he received his sterilization certificate, he was "free to go" so long as he agreed to have no sexual relations whatsoever with Germans.

Although most Black Germans attempted to escape their fatherland, heading for France where people like Josephine Baker were steadily aiding and supporting the French underground, many ran into problems elsewhere. Nations shut its doors to Germans, including the Black ones. Some Black Germans were able to eke out a living during Hitler 's reign of terror by performing in vaudeville shows.

But many Blacks, steadfast in their belief that they were German first, Black second, opted to remain in Germany . Some fought with the Nazis (a few even became Lutwaffe pilots!). Unfortunately, many Black Germans were arrested, charged with treason, and shipped in cattle cars to concentration camps. Often these trains were so charged with people (equipped with no bathroom facilities or food) that after the four day journey, box car doors opened to piles of the dead and dying.

Once in the concentration camps, Blacks were given the worst jobs conceivable. Some Black American soldiers who were captured and held as prisoners of war recounted that while they were starved an forced into dangerous labor (violating the Geneva Convention), they were still better off than Black German concentration camp detainees who were forced to do the unthinkable: man the crematoriums and work in labs where genetic experiments were carried out. As a final sacrifice, these Blacks were killed every three months so that they would never be able to reveal the inner workings of the Final Solution. In every story of Black oppression, no matter how enslaved, enshackled or beaten, we are, we find a way to survive and rescue others. Case in point, was Johnny Voste, a Belgian Resistance fighter who was arrested in 1942 for sabotage and shipped to Dachau. One of his jobs was stacking vitamin crates. Risking his own life, he distributed hundreds of vitamins to camp detainees, which saved the lives of many because they were starving, weak, and ill, conditions exacerbated by extreme vitamin-deficiencies. His motto was: 'No, you can't have my life: I will fight for it.'"

Low_Flyer_MkII
09-19-2005, 03:27 PM
One hell of a post Bearcat! - have one on me.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y231/Low_Flyer/glass.gif

~S!~

Pirschjaeger
09-19-2005, 04:26 PM
You know, everytime Afri-Trink-Cola comes back, under his new names, he gets worse and worse. Isn't there anyway to ban him completely and permanantly?

Drop him into the middle of Germany with an "I love Adolf" sign strapped to him. He won't be coming back.

Fritz

vanjast
09-19-2005, 05:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Marseille </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I do remember a book I read on him, and how he died. It always stuck in my mind as I thought it was a gruesome death for a pilot.

It was over the desert where they (Marseille) encountered P40's. Marseille shot down a few in quick succession, but was caught by a P40. He was low and had to bail out and his chute got caught in the tail plane, and so he died. This was witnessed by fellow pilots, one who commented "it is lost" [direct translation].

The other details i connot remember
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Loco-S
09-19-2005, 08:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by vanjast:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Marseille </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I do remember a book I read on him, and how he died. It always stuck in my mind as I thought it was a gruesome death for a pilot.

It was over the desert where they (Marseille) encountered P40's. Marseille shot down a few in quick succession, but was caught by a P40. He was low and had to bail out and his chute got caught in the tail plane, and so he died. This was witnessed by fellow pilots, one who commented "it is lost" [direct translation].

The other details i connot remember
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wonder if you read the previos posts, his plane caught fire because of an engine defect, there was not enemy planes in the area..he was not shot down when he died....his parachute ( Marseille) was not caught by the tail, his back hit the tail and he never opened the parachute....I think you are mistaken by the accident of Another pilot...Adolf galland:

June 22 1941...during his 70th victory he made a mistake of following the spit he just shot down to verify the kill, he was bounced by another spit and riddled with bullets, his canopy jammed, he was wounded in head and arm, his plane caught fire, he body slammed the canopy until it opened and when he jumped his parachute harness got caught with the antenna mast, , finally he broke loose and opened the parachute seconds before hitting the ground, his plane crashed a few meters of him, he dislocated an ankle and was rescued by civilians and later by the army in France.

BullyLang
09-24-2005, 11:14 PM
Posted by TX-Gunslinger...right

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Rudorffer and Lang are some of my favorite high scoring 190 drivers. They both converted early to the type. "Bully" Lang was just that, an athlete and very popular leader who flew with his gut more than his brains. He accomplished remarkable feats through sheer determination alone. I think Lang, who scored remarkably on the eastern front, underestimated both the quality of his wingmen and the experienced allied pilots he ran into after he transferred to JG26. He did'nt last long after that transfer.

S~ </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What a bunch of tripe the above is. So much for personal opinions.

Now the facts:

Lang shot down AT LEAST:
nine Spitfire, nine P-51, six P-47 and four P-38 fighters, During his Western Front assignment.

Clearly, the Western Front pilots were falling to his guns at nearly the same rate the Eastern Front adversaries had. (approximately 10 per month)

As for underestimating the quality of his own wingmen, perhaps you'd care to elaborate. What drivel.

FYI Mr If_I_Dont_Know_I_Make_It_Up, Lang was experiencing trouble with his landing gear before he climbed into combat the day he perished and his plane was seen with the gear down when it shouldn't have been.

Try reading. Its educational. Heres a start. you're on your own after this. sheez.

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/lang.html

Theses wannabes are everywhere

JG5_UnKle
09-25-2005, 02:25 AM
Interesting thread chaps and thanks for the info.

Good post Bearcat - can't you just give this Interminate chimp a holiday?


Ah, just realised he has been on the boards before....